British Chiropractic Association v Simon Singh

[Jack of Kent]

I understand this case is still ongoing.

I am putting together a substantial post on what has happened so far and may happen next. I will put that on my blog and I will also copy it here. This will be in a few days.

Jack

[filippo lippi]

Sounds good.

[Amaris]

I understand this case is still ongoing.

I am putting together a substantial post on what has happened so far and may happen next. I will put that on my blog and I will also copy it here. This will be in a few days.

Jack

Thanks Jack I'm thinking I must be psychic I was only wondering about this just before I logged in .... oh no hang on, I saw a link to the case on my favourites list

[Jack of Kent]

Please see my post here: http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2008/...mon-singh.html

For reasons of libel law, I will not actually reproduce it here as my post repeats the alleged "libel" but in a form which will be protected from law suit.

Best wishes, Jack

[Jack of Kent]

I set out in some detail Simon Singh's defence on my Blog, see:

http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2008/...-on-trial.html

In view of its length, I will not copy it here.

However, I can answer any questions on it...

Best wishes, Jack

[Jack of Kent]

This is a brief primer for all of those coming to this matter for the first time.

1. The British Chiropractic Association published a brochure promoting Chiropractic for young people, especially in respect of six named ailments (including the potentially serious ailments of asthma and frequent ear infections). See http://www.chiropractic-uk.co.uk/gfx/uploads/textbox/Happy%20families.pdf

2. Simon wrote a "Comment is Free" piece in the Guardian, which amongst other things, criticised the BCA for promoting Chiropractic for such ailments, see http://svetlana14s.narod.ru/Simon_Si...ced_paper.html (Hi She-Liger )

3. The news of a libel claim broke in August 2008. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-to-court.html

4. The blogosphere reacted promptly. The best round up is at: http://holfordwatch.info/2008/08/16/...idation-party/ and also see Blue Wode's posts at JREF http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...88#post4190088 (as well as at that thread generally).

5. I have now copies of the Claim Form and Defence, properly gained from the English High Court's court file, see summaries at:
http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2008/...mon-singh.html and http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2008/...-on-trial.html

[lost thought]

Hello Jack of Kent,
Please excuse my ignorance but chiropractioners are doctors ???
Is the term doctor as in medical or like vicers, priests, math teachers and rock stars.



Lost Thought

[tolman]

Hello Jack of Kent,
Please excuse my ignorance but chiropractioners are doctors ???
Is the term doctor as in medical or like vicers, priests, math teachers and rock stars.

I think generally, when we're talking about medicine, the term 'doctor', if used without qualification, is taken to mean "Real, actual doctor of medicine, with proper qualification from accredited institution"

[Mongrel]

Unfortunately doctor is not a protected title as it technically covers any one who has a doctorate. A proper medical doctor will have will generally have MD after their name, although there are some exceptions thanks to a quirky system started in medieval times.

I think generally, when we're talking about medicine, the term 'doctor', if used without qualification, is taken to mean "Real, actual doctor of medicine, with proper qualification from accredited institution"

Yeah, a few quacks have been called up for that (Gillian McKeith being the biggie over here). Due to the nature of the material they were pushing the term doctor could be misconstrued to mean a fully qualified medical doctor giving proper medical advice.

[Blue Wode]

Please excuse my ignorance but chiropractioners are doctors ???

FYI, back in May of this year the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) upheld a complaint about a UK chiropractic clinic regarding truthfulness. The ASA concluded that because the chiropractic doctors who worked in the clinic did not hold general medical qualifications, the use of the word 'Dr' could mislead. The ASA also considered that the suggested claim 'Doctors of Chiropractic', for use in future ads, did not go far enough to remove the implication that the practitioners held general medical qualifications as well as chiropractic qualifications.

That ASA adjudication was reviewed and updated in September:
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudicati..._ADJ_44999.htm

More on the subject from David Colquhoun:

Doctor Who? Deception by chiropractors
July 25th, 2008

The article below is an editorial that I was asked to write for the New Zealand Medical Journal, as a comment on article in today’s edition about the misuse of the title ‘doctor’ by chiropractors. Titles are not the only form of deception used by chiropractors, so the article looks at some of the others too. For a good collection of articles that reveal chiropractic for what it is, look at Chirobase

Read on...
http://dcscience.net/?p=241

Returning to the topic of this thread, for those who may have missed it, here’s the latest from the Quackometer:

Chiropractic Folly and the Nature of Evidence

It looks like the Chiropractors are on a hiding to nothing. That does not mean that I think Singh will automatically win. The legal courtroom is not the place to decide scientific issues: it decides legal ones, and we all know that the law, at times, can be perverse. Rather, we have a game of high stakes now where, if the chiropractors go ahead, we are going to see lots of arguments like the above and the evidence for chiropractic put in the spotlight. Even if by some freak, the chiropractors win, they may well suffer many humiliations in the process. The world is watching, the press is watching and it is going to be a show.

More…
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/11/chiropractic-folly-and-nature-of.html

And here’s a new Facebook group that’s just been set up in support of Simon Singh:

For Simon Singh and Free Speech – Against the BCA libel claim
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33457048634&ref=mf

[lost thought]

Ok so the system started in medieval times when the barbers did surgery is this why "MD" are Dr. and surgeons are Mr. or Prof.
So with this system any one with a half arsed qualification can call themselves Doctor of whatever and assume authority and stature over us mere mortals....
But isn't this the 21st centuary or did I get off the bus too soon.



Lost Thought

[Mongrel]

Ok so the system started in medieval times when the barbers did surgery is this why "MD" are Dr. and surgeons are Mr. or Prof.
So with this system any one with a half arsed qualification can call themselves Doctor of whatever and assume authority and stature over us mere mortals....
But isn't this the 21st centuary or did I get off the bus too soon.



Lost Thought

No, it's 'tradition'.

Bizarrely, I agree with it. We're have a slot in the top 5 oldest universities in the world (I think) and our system has evolved - even if that means it's a little wacky at times. It's our heritage and we should be proud

Previously (20-30 years ago) if you had a Doctorate you introduced yourself as a "Doctor of <subject>" or Doctor if you were speaking to your peer group, anything else just "wasn't done".

I blame those Humanities students (Bad Science et al) getting ideas above their station )

[Jack of Kent]

A couple of mentions of this case on notable Blogs, both with interesting and insightful comments from readers.

Quackometer:

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/11/chiropractic-folly-and-nature-of.html

The philosopher Stephen Law:

http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2008/...ropractic.html

[tolman]

Personally, whatever the history, I think the whole MD->Doctor Surgeon->Mr thing just seems like a pointless affectation.

At best, it's acknowledging a tradition (of medically unqualified surgeons) that stopped a long time ago, for good reason.
It also risks looking rather like one of those things kept on as an oddity in order to distinguish between people who know the tradition and people who don't.

[lost thought]

Sounds good.

"It cannot be right for acupuncturists to validate acupuncture courses, herbalists to validate herbalism courses, homeopaths to validate homeopathy courses and so on. By that logic, we could have a degree in any moronic idea so long as there is a National Morons Association to validate it."


Ok after much thought I have decided that if it is not to expensive can I enroll in to the National Morons Association, I know this may involve some study but I will give it a go that is if it is not to hard I'm not to bright and it would be nice to be able to claim to be a moron not just daft.

Lost Thought