Tunbridge Wells homeopathic hospital to close.

[Muttley]

....if the dilution of active ingredients increases their effectiveness, taken to an absurd extreme, would not the most effective result from taking the substance be to just look at it, and take none at all????

Or taking it to its (il)logical conclusion, everybody who hasn't taken the remedy should be suffering massive overdose symptoms.

M.

[mahakala]

Here in Canada there is a homeopathic clinic that has developed a protocol for treating respiratory ailments. The protocol was worked out after three years of testing all the various approaches to homeopathy. It has become so successful that a number of U.S. medical centres are looking at their approach as a means of treating a variety of chronic ailments which would otherwise never be cured, only managed with expensive and debilitating drug protocols.

The founder of this clinic believes that our health problems are too complex to be treated in the traditional homeopathic way, and thus the new protocol.

To say homepathy is all placebo and autosuggestion is demeaning to doctors and patients all around the world, and is also just plain dumb.

[John Jackson]

Here in Canada there is a homeopathic clinic that has developed a protocol for treating respiratory ailments. The protocol was worked out after three years of testing all the various approaches to homeopathy. It has become so successful that a number of U.S. medical centres are looking at their approach as a means of treating a variety of chronic ailments which would otherwise never be cured, only managed with expensive and debilitating drug protocols.

The founder of this clinic believes that our health problems are too complex to be treated in the traditional homeopathic way, and thus the new protocol.

Do you have any links or further information?

To say homepathy is all placebo and autosuggestion is demeaning to doctors and patients all around the world, and is also just plain dumb.

No it isn't because homeopathy is a placebo treatment. To believe that it's anything different is plain dumb.

See: Homeopathy. 'Remedies' that don't have any ingredients cannot possibly work.

[bobdezon]

Psssssst....John.....theres a clue in the name.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakala

[John Jackson]

Thanks Bob.

That read is almost as mad as the theory of homeopathy.

[mahakala]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

But then, if you have DECIDED it is placebo it will of course be a placebo, because that's how reality works isn't it.

Good luck with that.

[John Jackson]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

Have you heard of the Avogadro limit to dilution?

If homeopaths could tell the difference between a plain sugar pill and a homeopathic sugar pill they would be able to claim James Randi's $1,000,000 prize.

But then, if you have DECIDED it is placebo it will of course be a placebo, because that's how reality works isn't it.

No it isn't. It's how stupid mystical and magical thinking wrongly states that reality works.

Reality is that which remains when you stop believing it.

[bobdezon]

It should be noted that spectometry or electron microscopes cannot detect even a single molecule of the original substance in any homeopathic solution (once past a certain dilution ofcourse) This is a mathmatical fact. It has been theorised that to find a single molecule of the original solution in the substance would require a globe of water as large as our solar system. Incase you cannot do the math, there simply is not that volume of water available. Subsequently it is a myth that homeopathy has any other effect than a placebo one.

you are always welcome to accept this information or completely ignore it. You are even welcome to try and commit suicide by ingesting dangerous amounts of any homeopathic remedy if you so choose.

[Mojo]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

They have? Can you provide citations to where the results have been published?

And how do you square that with this recent statement made by Kate Chatfield of the Research Ethics Committee of the Society of Homeopaths in evidence given to the House of Lords select committee on science and technology:

Q538 Lord Broers: I have a simple, technical question about homeopathy and drugs. Is it possible to distinguish between homeopathic drugs after they have been diluted? Is there any means of distinguishing one from the other?

Ms Chatfield: Only by the label.

[Muttley]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

Well, the BBC "Horizon" programme took the James Randi $1M challenge with a controlled, randomised double-blind trial of a homeopathic preparation of histamine tested against plain water, with the detection system consisting of mammalian tissue culture cells. Cytotoxic effect was measured using flow cytometry - a laser-based technique where results are assessed by a computer system rather than any kind of subjective human analysis.

Within statistical limits of experimental error, the homeopathic preparation and the plain water gave exactly the same results, just as any rational person would expect them to.

Do you have any irrefutable, scientifically-valid evidence that homeopathic preparations have any measurable effect over that of the solvent system in which they are prepared? If so, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

M.

[brianp]

Placebo eh. I guess you've never heard of things like laser spectometry or electron microscopes which have been used to analyse the makeup of homepathic solutions.

Well for a start they aren't solutions because solutions have two parts, a solvent and a solute, and there's none of the latter. Consequently the make-up is very simple, it's that of water.

And as for laser spectrometry and electron microscopy - you're quite wrong when you suggest that we've never heard of them. In fact I'm certain that many here will have a good understanding of both their theoretical basis and the practical aspects of their use. So when you point us to detailed descriptions of these studies you refer to where those techniques were used to analyze homeopathic "solutions", you can be sure that many here will be able to fully appreciate them and judge their worth.

Meanwhile I make no apology for fully concurring with the views that the terms "homeopathic solution" and "water" are synonymous and that homeopathy has no curative or palliative action beyond that of a placebo.

[mahakala]

In the end none of these whys and why nots really mean anything. As the saying goes, proof of the pudding is in the eating and over the course of my life I have seen many examples of homeopathy working to help people and in situations where it is obviously not placebo.

Of course to the professional sceptics I am either lying or delusionary, so there you go.

[filippo lippi]

Of course, hearsay and conjecture are types of evidence.

[Mojo]

In the end none of these whys and why nots really mean anything. As the saying goes, proof of the pudding is in the eating and over the course of my life I have seen many examples of homeopathy working to help people and in situations where it is obviously not placebo.

Of course to the professional sceptics I am either lying or delusionary, so there you go.

Can you provide references for any of the the studies you claim have been carried out on homoeopathic solutions using "laser spectometry [sic] or electron microscopes"?

[vbloke]

I assume they're referring to this paper:
Quality Assessment of Physical Research in Homeopathy,
Claudia Becker-Witt, Thorolf E.R. Wei[ss]huhn, Rainer Ludtke, Stefan N. Willich. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 2003, 9(1): 113-132. doi:10.1089/107555303321222991.

Conclusions: Most physical experiments of homeopathic preparations were performed with inadequate controls or had other serious flaws that prevented any meaningful conclusion. Except for those of high quality, all experiments should be repeated using stricter methodology and standardization before they are accepted as indications of special features of homeopathic potencies.

Hardly conclusive.