Christopher Hansard - Tibetan Bon Medicine

[Matt]

Oh yeah. The bit about all alternative/complimentary medicine being bogus and unproven. Does that include the use of vitamins, minerals and herbs used in nutritional therapy, dietary therapy and naturopathy. Backed by real iffy journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine, British Medical Journal, Lancet, Clinical Nutrition Review etc, etc?

If it's proven it's effects in DBT's then it's no longer alternative, it's just medicine. Vitamins are very good a curing vitimin defficiencies. Minerals are very good at curing mineral deficiencies. Either should be taken if a deficiency has been diagnosed.

I'm not familar with "nutritional therapy" or "dietary therapy but if you're talking about eating a balanced diet comprising the major food groups including 5 portions of fruit or vegetasbles a day then go for it. Though that would harldy be alternative now would it. Natropathy is one of the more dangerous alternative therapies. Whilst many alternative practictioners have no effect thier major cause of harm is in stopping patients from seeking convetional medical care. Natropathy uses naturally occuring compounds as drugs. And these drugs do have an effect. DBT's will confirm and such drugs can either be used as conventional medicines or the active ingredients can be isolated, refined and synthesised. many conventional drugs found this route to the market place. The problem is that when such materials are prescribed by non-medically qualified people not all the side effects are fully quantified. E.g. depressed person seeks help from a natropath who prescribes St Johns Wort which may be marginally effective - however person is on the contraceptive pill and St John Wort is very effective at nullifying the effects of the contraceptive pill. Whammo she now has an unplanned pregnancy goes really well with depression don't you think.

[seren]

Davlon,
You don't go into any detail. Do you mean this?

EM power+ (also referred to as Empowerplus) is a vitamin and mineral product that was formulated by two lay people (i.e. non-scientists) in Alberta, Canada as a supposed cure for various psychiatric conditions like bipolar disorder and bipolar disorder......the Canadian government has issued a health hazard warning informing people not to use the product because it has not been proven safe and because the company is encouraging people to go off prescribed medications. There is at least one lawsuit that we are aware of by a family of a man that states their son went off his medications, began taking the Empowerplus product, and quickly got worse and now they can't get him back on his medication because he is psychotic.

http://www.pendulum.org/treatments.htm#empower
More here: http://bipolar.about.com/cs/altercomp/a/truehope.htm
And here:
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communit...lternative.asp

However, there has been some research (in addition to case studies and anecdotal evidence) that indicate specific nutrient deficiencies can exacerbate depressive symptoms, anxiety, insomnia, or other symptoms that commonly trouble people with bipolar disorder.

http://www.pendulum.org/treatments.htm#vitamins

If that's true (they don't cite a source), rather than taking more of whatever vitamin or mineral, bipolar people may benefit from ensuring they get enough. Seems reasonable to me.

[mahakala]

If you go to their webpage you will get a more complete story.


http://www.truehope.com/_empowerplus/empowerplus.asp

[bindeweede]

If you go to their webpage you will get a more complete story.


http://www.truehope.com/_empowerplus/empowerplus.asp

Or


http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media...3-07-15_e.html

[davron]

I asked about vitamins because when younger I went to a naturopath, following mothers orders, and was advised a vitamin program. The family doctor told me I was a fool. Twenty years later I was told the same thing by the new army doctor, same vitamins, same program. One mans new cutting edges science is another mans crap, becomes another mans science.

as for this below,

Davlon,
You don't go into any detail. Do you mean this?


Quote:
EM power+ (also referred to as Empowerplus) is a vitamin and mineral product that was formulated by two lay people (i.e. non-scientists) in Alberta, Canada as a supposed cure for various psychiatric conditions like bipolar disorder and bipolar disorder......the Canadian government has issued a health hazard warning informing people not to use the product because it has not been proven safe and because the company is encouraging people to go off prescribed medications. There is at least one lawsuit that we are aware of by a family of a man that states their son went off his medications, began taking the Empowerplus product, and quickly got worse and now they can't get him back on his medication because he is psychotic.

Never heard of this stuff you brought it up.

As for anti-psychotics etc any thoughts of young children and suicide risk from seroxat?

Davron who found the bar and ducked the grenades

[mahakala]

Or


http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media...3-07-15_e.html

That was four years ago and Health Canada has since made peace with them. So stop being so dimwitted and think you know anything about a story that has been unfolding in my backyard.

[bindeweede]

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media...2007_17_e.html

[seren]

Never heard of this stuff you brought it up.

My bad, I was responding to Mahakala and got mixed up.
Oh, and apologies for calling you Davlon earlier. Duh.

As for anti-psychotics etc any thoughts of young children and suicide risk from seroxat?

That's called moving the goal posts. We're not talking about problems with pharmaceuticals, we're talking the efficacy of herbal medicines.

1. That seroxat or any other mainstream medicine may have negative side-effects has no bearing on the safety or otherwise of herbal medicine. I might well respond "any thoughts of black cohosh and liver damage?" or "any thoughts about juniper berries and kidney damage/risk to people with diabetes?" or "any thoughts on st john's wort and sensitivity to the sun?".

2. Who ever said mainstream medicine doesn't have side-effects? Mainstream medicine has been tested, the side-effects are known and are communicated to the person taking the medicine, or the drug is not licenced, or withdrawn. This is not the case with herbal remedies. This was explained in the links you didn't read from my earlier post. Also see Matt's post.

3. Because of 2, Seroxat is no longer used on under 18s in the UK. So the suicide risk to children is currently hovering somewhere around 0%.

Davron who found the bar and ducked the grenades

Que?



Mahakala,

So stop being so dimwitted and think you know anything about a story that has been unfolding in my backyard.

You asked if I/we "care to educate" ourselves about it, we did and now you tell us we can't comment because we're not there. WTF?
You're intelligent enough to know that's a pretty poor argument.

PS I've just been reading about you on wikipedia. Are you the six armed, four armed or two armed variety?

[davron]

Ah well you see,

I was trying to point out that
1 not all alternative medicine is bogus
2 some of it is well researched
3 some well researched medication can be very harmful when stated to be 'safe
4 research can be 'clouded' in favour of thoses who manufacture the product
5 you cannot always assume that research is honest or correct
6 you cannot also assume the long term and establish use of a substance is safe
7 inspite of research we still have alcohol, nicotine, sugar etc. etc
8 inspite of being researched the side effects of medication are not always known until mass use and on occasion have not been reported to the end user. i.e. the patient

It is a minefield and it is wrong to assume all doctors and medical research is 'correct'. In the same breath it is wrong to assume all natural medicine is unresearched and 'wrong'. In the end it is a case by case basis. Some time history of use is correct etc, etc. Some times its so dam wrong it stinks.

The army guys who use camels stopped their camel trainers feeding mouldy grain to the camels when they were sick in the 60's:-\. In the 1990's they discovered that the potion they used contained a tetracycline strain of mould which worked dam fine on camels and people (if you could stand the taste/smell). In the meantime a lot of arab camel doctors were told they were stupid and a lot of camels died.

As an aside ask any decent doctor how many hours they get on nutrition and you will be appaled at the lack of training and or understanding. After all we are built out of food.

As for dodging genades. Think of a small country with funny dietary habits, powerful mothers, ugly women, that builds walls and its all the nextdoor neibours throw bombs at them as a national hobby.




Davron

[Matt]

1 not all alternative medicine is bogus
2 some of it is well researched

Surely if it's well researched it's eaither known to be bogus or is just medicine rather than alternative medicine

3 some well researched medication can be very harmful when stated to be 'safe
4 research can be 'clouded' in favour of thoses who manufacture the product
5 you cannot always assume that research is honest or correct
6 you cannot also assume the long term and establish use of a substance is safe
7 inspite of research we still have alcohol, nicotine, sugar etc. etc
8 inspite of being researched the side effects of medication are not always known until mass use and on occasion have not been reported to the end user. i.e. the patient

Possibility is not probability

It is a minefield and it is wrong to assume all doctors and medical research is 'correct'. In the same breath it is wrong to assume all natural medicine is unresearched and 'wrong'.

If it's researched and tight it's natural but it's no longer alternative. As such alternative medicine is either unresearched or non beneficial.

In the end it is a case by case basis. Some time history of use is correct etc, etc. Some times its so dam wrong it stinks.

The army guys who use camels stopped their camel trainers feeding mouldy grain to the camels when they were sick in the 60's:-\. In the 1990's they discovered that the potion they used contained a tetracycline strain of mould which worked dam fine on camels and people (if you could stand the taste/smell). In the meantime a lot of arab camel doctors were told they were stupid and a lot of camels died.

If this is true then initially it was unresearched alternative medicine. As such an unknown quantity. It is now a researched natural medicine.

Is ask if it's true because it doesn't quite ring true. Why wouldn't the army have substituted regular antibiotics? I see no reason why the camels should die is treated with properly researched medication.

As an aside ask any decent doctor how many hours they get on nutrition and you will be appaled at the lack of training and or understanding. After all we are built out of food.

OK will do. I recived very good dietary advice from Doctors and from medically trained nutritionists. What I'm most appalled by is the claptrap spouted by people like pretend docort Gillian McKeith whose advice really fsked up my girlfriend.

[davron]

'If this is true then initially it was unresearched alternative medicine. As such an unknown quantity. It is now a researched natural medicine'.

So did this make the camel doctors quacks or well reaserched physicians, or poor illiterate hearders getting things right by accident? Could it have been well researched medicine of its time?

'Is ask if it's true because it doesn't quite ring true. Why wouldn't the army have substituted regular antibiotics? I see no reason why the camels should die is treated with properly researched medication'.

The answer to that one is easy, its the army you are dealing with!

Camels do not have the same physiology as people, also the digestive tract, which is where they get most problems, is beyond the peculiar. Antibiotics could not probably be supplied in the same volume, I will ask a camel next time I see one for the answer.

Which has go us a long way from the Pizza God and Flying Saucer Man. To which no one answered my question what kind of revenue generation do we suspect the flying Saucer Man gets from his web ventures etc?

[seren]

Oh no no no no! I was just giggling at all the camels and thinking what a weird tangent we'd got ourselves down. Don't stop now. At this rate we'll be discussing quantum tapirs within the week and I don't want to miss it!

[mahakala]

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media...2007_17_e.html

Yes of course. A certain amount of people become suicidal and homocidal when they take Paxil, but that's OK apparently as far as Health Canada is concerned.

But what is really interesting about this product is the people who got better. If the other people were properly monitored then the side effects caused by going off their meds would have been caught and stopped. Furthermore, if that percentage was really that large there would be way more cases of side effects.

For some reason, the psychiatric establishment doesn't want to look at the fact that there may a variety of reasons and thus a variety of treatments for bi-polar disorder. I wonder why? Could it be.......funding?

[mahakala]

P.S.

My apologies to whoever it was I accused of being dimwitted in their response.

Health Canada is so irritating sometimes. For several years they used to raid health food stores for melatonin supplements. They barge into your business and start searching the premises, no warrants, nothing, and threaten to close you down if you don't comply.

Then they decide it is OK. And so on with all kinds of products used as alternatives to various pharmaceuticals.

Their "side effect reports" are often just urban myths and the stories of nutters who overdose on supplements or have serious ailments that need monitoring by a relevent professionals.

[davron]

Ok 'quantum tapirs' burning question are the related to 'quantum lamas'. If so are they a medicine or an alternative compound (unregulated) or just a natural event.

Sometimes ducking the grenades seems almost sane compared to the internet.

Davron