Traditional Chinese Medicine

solbol · 10th January 2007, 08:40 AM

I am a filmmaker making a documentary film about Traditional Chinese Medicine (or TCM). Are there any health professionals out there based near London (or visiting in February)who are strongly opposed to the supposed benefits of TCM and would like to use my film as a platform, if so I would very much like to talk to you. I'm new to this forum but hopefully you will know how to contact me. Cheers and best wishes for the New Year. Comments from anyone else are most welcome!

**Mongrel** · 11th January 2007, 08:50 AM

Couldn't find a health professional, sorry :(

What did come in this morning was the latest in a long procession of TCM practitioners getting caught cheating by the MHRA (link)

The link to the TCM slimming aids warning is worth a read as well (here)

**Admin** · 12th January 2007, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by solbol

Are there any health professionals out there based near London (or visiting in February)who are strongly opposed to the supposed benefits of TCM and would like to use my film as a platform, if so I would very much like to talk to you.

I don't think anyone would be opposed to the benefits of TCM - should there be any.

I think we would more likely take the position that such products should not be on sale before any of their potential benefits, and associated risks, have been scientifically evaluated.

I'll pass this message on to a couple of people I know who might well be interested in talking to you.

You don't state what the purpose of the documentary is however. We get many requests from TV/Radio producers wanting skeptics to appear as 'disbelievers' who oppose whatever it is that their production may be about.

So be prepared for skeptics to be quite different to naysayers - if that's what you're expecting.

**tkingdoll** · 13th January 2007, 02:20 PM

One of the things that fascinates me about the Chinese med shops on the high street is the incredible claims they make in their window signage. I believe that shop window signs aren't regulated by ASA so you can pretty much say what you like. Will look for confirmation of that though.

solbol · 15th January 2007, 01:35 PM

The purpose of the documentary is an investigative piece and as such I approach it with an open-mind. i.e, I remain unconvinced by claims that TCM makes of its efficacy but also not completely convinced that scientific evaluation is the only way to measure issues of health. So naturally it is important for the purpose of my documentary to hear both sides of the argument and that those arguments are as informed and coherant as possible.

From a research point of view, I try to follow up any leads I receive from this forum and so Mongrel and Tono, your input is most welcome.

**Dr B** · 15th January 2007, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by solbol

.....edit....I remain unconvinced by claims that TCM makes of its efficacy but also not completely convinced that scientific evaluation is the only way to measure issues of health.

Sorry to be a bit of a pedant - but what do you mean science may not be the only way to measure the issue of health? This may depend on whether we are talking about real benefits or placebos of course - but it would be nice to know. It might help you to openly discuss your concerns of science as being unsuitable or what the shortcomings are etc. What other measures do you think are more suitable and and what grounds?

What are you taking as a measure of health improvement? Real medical / scientific results? Generic feelings and phenomenology? Placebo effects? Just curious thats all. I am sure these issues will help your programme

**median** · 15th January 2007, 06:33 PM

Ah, Confuscius, he say

'The bamboo of TCM grow faster than the moss of pharmaceuticals'

**Dr B** · 15th January 2007, 08:11 PM

Own up median - that was just an excuse to use the new FSM smiley.... 8)

**median** · 15th January 2007, 08:21 PM

Bugger!

I've been rumbled :D

Mind you, to paraphrase a line in a well known Python film

'I don't think he means spaghetti as such but seeks to include all types of pasta products' ???

**Dr B** · 15th January 2007, 09:11 PM

- you just made my week......

solbol · 19th January 2007, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Dr B

Originally Posted by solbol

.....edit....I remain unconvinced by claims that TCM makes of its efficacy but also not completely convinced that scientific evaluation is the only way to measure issues of health.

Sorry to be a bit of a pedant - but what do you mean science may not be the only way to measure the issue of health? This may depend on whether we are talking about real benefits or placebos of course - but it would be nice to know. It might help you to openly discuss your concerns of science as being unsuitable or what the shortcomings are etc. What other measures do you think are more suitable and and what grounds?

What are you taking as a measure of health improvement? Real medical / scientific results? Generic feelings and phenomenology? Placebo effects? Just curious thats all. I am sure these issues will help your programme

solbol · 19th January 2007, 10:35 AM

You may have slightly misunderstood my posting. I'm not advocating an alternative to scietific evaluation.

The purpose of my documentary is to look at TCM and to interview prominent TCM practitioners and then to balance this with areas opposition to TCM. Scientific evaluation is one opposition that I will cover and of which I am currently becoming more informed of through my research and through forums such as this. Another area is the illegal trade in endangered species, which I am also currently investigating. So any help in providing visual evidence of these areas would be usefull.

**Blue Wode** · 26th February 2008, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by median

Ah, Confuscius, he say

…how nice of London’s South Bank University to name its new TCM/acupucnture institute after me?

Britain's London South Bank University (LSBU) announced on Monday the opening of its Confucius Institute, the first of its kind in the world to offer traditional Chinese medicinal courses, including a degree in acupuncture.

-snip-

The LSBU Confucius Institute, jointly funded by LSBU and the Office of Chinese Language Council International, China's Harbin Normal University and Heilongjiang University of Chinese Medicine, will offer students a range of opportunities, including the acupuncture course that results in full British accreditation to practice acupuncture.

It will also offer continuing professional development courses as part of the acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine programs for healthcare professionals in order to expand their knowledge and soft skills, as well as help them provide patients, such as those with chronic illness, with alternative treatments.

http://www.china.org.cn/culture/2008-02/26/content_10766416.htm

In view of the following, I can’t really see the point (pun intended) of this new institute:

The conclusion of the most recent systematic review of randomised clinical trials of individualised herbal medicine in any indication…

Individualised herbal medicine, as practised in European medical herbalism, Chinese herbal medicine and Ayurvedic herbal medicine, has a very sparse evidence base and there is no convincing evidence that it is effective in any indication. Because of the high potential for adverse events and negative herb–herb and herb–drug interactions, this lack of evidence for effectiveness means that its use cannot be recommended.

R Guo , P H Canter , E Ernst, Postgraduate Medical Journal 2007;83:633-637 (October 2007)
http://pmj.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/83/984/633

[My bold]

Does Acupuncture Work or Not?…

“I think it is important to dispense with the superstitious nonsense that still surrounds acupuncture so we can focus on these remaining questions. Is there any benefit to acupuncture above the placebo effect? Is the needle insertion a necessary component of the acupuncture treatment? (So far I find the evidence unconvincing on these questions.) If it does work, what is the underlying physiological mechanism and are their easier and less invasive ways to exploit it? Acupuncture must free itself from its superstitious roots to more effectively address these questions, to be taken seriously, and to avoid the chronic problem of CAM where positive findings in a very narrow area are used to justify a large system of pseudoscience.” (Steven Novella)

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=14

‘Alternative medicine doesn’t exist and acupuncture is useless’…

“I look at it this way: what if acupuncture didn’t exist? ...Would medicine or society be any worse off? If no one knew about it, nothing would change. You would still have ways to apply counter-irritation, through massage or rubbing.” (Wallace Sampson)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/31/NSGDOIM5RJ1.DTL&type=health