I was recently visiting Stoke on Trent in the UK on business related to the sale of the Phones4U company. I met several people who had worked for this company prior to the departure of John Caudwell. One of them told me a very strange story but assured me it was true and showed me some documentary evidence to verify this. My question to members of the UK Skeptics forum is:
Do you think the incidents in this story when taken overall would constitute a paranormal series of events?
It might be significant that the main victim of this tale had a Pisces star sign.
This is the way I heard it.
When John Caudwell, the mobile phones billionaire was a kid, there was a craze among the local boys to grope for freshwater mussels around the edge of the lake in Hanley park. It was rumoured that pearls could be found in the shells and there was also competition in how many mussels a boy could collect, though the contents were seldom if ever eaten.
One day, John walked down a slipway by the boathouse to see what he could find there. Unknown to him, there was a point where the partially submerged ramp ended with an immediate drop into deep water.
John overstepped the safe zone and was in over his head. Though he couldn't swim he was a strong kid and his splashing and shouting caught the attention of an older local boy who was trying his luck in a nearby part of the lake.
The older boy, being a swimmer, dived into the lake and managed to get John back on shore. Some people saw the rescue and soon after the older boy, Michael, was awarded a certificate and a five pound check at a local court session.
When Michael got back home, his mother was missing. She was found later floating in the local canal which ran close by the family house. There was no note. Later, a brief article in the local newspaper said that she'd "taken her own life while the balance of her mind was disturbed".
This was the start of a downward path into depression and isolation for Michael. He left home soon after and wandered the country aimlessly. Tramps generally had a lot more going for them than he did and over time Michael's condition deteriorated further into abjectness.
Many years later, when the few options he had left were fast running out, Michael returned to Stoke-on-Trent, where unknown to him, John Caudwell had become rich and successful in the mobile communications field. By yet another stroke of fate Michael ended up sleeping in the doorway of one of John's many Phones4U shops. To stave off the cold and discomfort Michael resorted to the time honoured remedy of alcohol. So, at the start of their business day the shop staff often had to step over the ragged sleeper.
This was at a time when John's business and staff motivation methods had reached a peak of intensity. In the Phones4U company success and efficiency were rewarded handsomely. Mediocrity and it's effects were nipped in the bud fast. Everyone was under pressure to Perform. Blocking the pathway to prosperity, the human flotsam in the doorway had to be disposed of. The police were called several times and moved the vagabond on, but he would return to the spot later.
The Shop manager, under the stressful obligation to increase sales, decided to pay some of the local yobs to drive this problem out of town and dissuade it from returning. One night soon after, a small gang pulled up in a van and bundled the semiconscious derelict into the back. They later dragged Michael through a gap in the Hanley park fence, disposing of their charge by dumping him in the lake, where he was found 2 days later. Someone had become curious about the floating bundle of rags which was attracting so much of the park's wildlife.
Comments would be appreciated,
Robert_S
Please clarify, what exactly is the "paranormal event" being claimed in this story?
And what is the "significance" of the tale's victim having a Pisces star sign?
Firstly, what has being a Pisces to do with the events in this story? I've tried, but can see no correlation at all - can you please clarify.
Secondly, it is a sad story and demonstrates (if true) that sometimes, people can be incredibly inhumane to each other.
Lastly, if a coincidence is not paranormal. The whole story relates a coincidence, nothing more.
Can you can furnish proof of paranormal activity in any of the events in this story? If so, then please do, as I can see none at all.
You might want to read http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.ph...precession.php as well, as the Picses connection is probably wrong too.
If the story is true as relayed to us, all I can see are some possible, and not too unlikely, coincidences.Originally Posted by Robert_S
And no, I can't see the relevance of Pisces either. Or is it a water sign or something?
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It's fish, isn't it? I wouldn't have thought they'd have a problem with lakes.
Pisces is a water sign. Fish as someone pointed out, though all fish aren't equally able to cope in the lake.
I wondered if these were paranormal events because it seemed to me that the level of coincidence was so high as to be beyond the realms of scientific explanation. Maybe I misunderstand the definition of "paranormal"
Excuse me if that is so.
Robert_S
If I happen to think of a person I know and then the phone rings and it's that person calling me, that's not paranormal, just a very big coincidence. The odds of it happening are astronomical given the amount of people who might conceivably call me and the timing, but it happens occasionally.
The odds of someone winning the lottery are 13,983,816 to 1, but people do. That's an astronomical outside chance, it's not paranormal though.
I don't think this sort of coincidence and winning the lottery are really the same. The chance of winning the lottery is fixed, at around 14 million to 1. The reason people win is because a lot more than 14 million take part, so it is actually quite likely that someone will win. In the case of phonecalls, while it may seem there is a large number of people that coud call, there are actually only a few that are likely to. Most people will only have a few close friends and family that call regularly, so if the phone rings it is likely to be one of these. Most people are also likey to think about these same people more than anyone else, so it doesn't take much of a coincidence to think of one of them before they call. Given how many millions of people have phones, it would actually be extremely likely that almost all of them have experienced this sort of thing, or at least know someone who has.
In fact, this story is not even up to this level of unlikelyhood. The two boys did not actually know each other, and the one was not actually involved with the other's death. When the rescue is described, all that is established is that they lived in the same area. At the end, it is not Caudwell that does anything, it is someone in is coompany, and who he very likely has never even met. So the "coincidence" actually boils down to "One person was killed by some people who were hired by someone in the employ of a company owned by another person, both of whom are still in the same place in which they grew up.". Not really much of a coincidence at all.
It may be of interest for you to read about http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16422154.800"]small world networks[/URL] as well. These are the basis of the "Kevin Bacon game", where you try to connect the actor Kevini Bacon to another actor in as few steps as possible. In fact, anyone can be connected to anyone else in a surprising small number of steps, usually not more than six or seven. Since this is very counter-intuitive people often see coincidences where there are none. In the story here, it would actually be very unlikey for the two men not to be connected in only a couple of steps. Without more information I would think the steps are likely to be as follows : John Caudwell -> recruitment manager -> shop manager -> thugs -> Michael, so four steps. Even assuming Caudwell was responsible for appointing all his managers, this would still be three steps. To put this in perspecticve, as a recent graduate in my first job with no interest in politics, I can connect myself to virtually every world leader in this many steps. No coincidences required.
Of course, all this assumes that the story is true, which I find extremely unlikely, especially given how much the tabloids would love to jump on a story like this.
Hi Robert, and welcome to UKS :)Maybe I misunderstand the definition of "paranormal". Excuse me if that is so
As Vbloke has pointed out, coincidences are not paranormal. However, there is a natural tendancy for the human mind to search for patterns and meaning in information - which can sometimes lead to a pattern being identified mistakenly where none in fact exists. This is known as pareidolia.
There is no need to find scientific explanations for simple coincidences, and therefore there is nothing paranormal about them. It is useful to be aware that people who see evidence of the paranormal in things like this are often "cherry-picking" the facts, ignoring those which do not fit with their preconcieved ideas and exaggerating the importance of those which do. This is called confirmation bias.
Here are some examples of how coincidence can be misrepresented as evidence of the paranormal.
I hope you find this information of interest, and if you would like to discuss these matters further this is a great place to do so
The problem with answering these type of questions is that people tend to get ahead of themselves too quickly. i.e. trying to explain a problem that isn’t actually there.
The first step in an investigation (let’s assume we have been asked to look into this claim) is to ascertain the facts and work with them.
What we’d need to do is to look into the story (which is in anecdotal form) and find out as best we can how true each claim is.
It’s actually quite common when looking into extraordinary claims that this initial phase reveals that there’s not actually anything that needs explaining or that claims have been made but there’s nothing to back them up.
So, step 1 would be to ascertain the truth of the story and how true each link in the story is.
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Could you explain more of how you actually do it cos I'd like a go but I don't know how to go about it?
Hmmm. Robert, where did you find this tale? Sounds a bit fishy to me.
Go on, pun the board to death....
It depends a bit on how closely related you want the people to be. In my case I would say me -> my boss -> Tony Blair -> pick world leader of your choice. I could make it two steps if I jump straight from me to Blair, since but I wouldn't count just shaking hands as a strong enough link. On the other hand, if you make it stricter so that people actually need to be friends, or at least correspond regularly, then it would probably take more steps. With Kevin Bacon game, and other variants, it is usually enough for people to have just been in the same film, or even copied a song, without them actually needing to have ever met each other. However you look at it, it always seems to need a much smaller number of steps than common sense would suggest, which I find terribly interesting.
hello?
Can anyone else see the major problem with this bucket of hogwash?
Firstly, we are being given an incredible amount of detail and yet this is supposed to be a word of mouth story, told to Robert S by some people at the company. "this is the way I heard it" My word, he has a good memory! That's a paranormal feat in itself!
The boy Michael received five pounds? The exact wording of the newspaper article about his mother? The Hanley park fence?
For goodness sake, let's not stretch credibility here. This is classic Urban Myth wording.
OK, so all that aside, pretending for one moment that these amazing details have survived the test of time and Chinese whispers, let's look at what Robert is actually suggesting...
...that a Phones4U shop manager is guilty of murder.
Yes, folks, that's what he's asking us to believe, with no evidence whatsoever. We know the rough location of the store, so it would be fairly easy for the police to draw up a suspect list, but no investigation was forthcoming.
Talking of the police, they are usually the first port of call for a store manager having trouble with rough sleepers, not 'the local yobs'. Is it likely that he decided on murder rather than the police?
Hell no.
Either Robert S has made this up himself, or he's elaborated on a silly myth that some disgruntled employees have spread, or he's pasted the contents of a malicious email. Oh, hello, what's this in the wording? "a five pound check" - well, well, that doesn't sound like something an English person would write. Hmm, maybe this is actually about Bill Gates and someone just changed the names?
Oh, and while we're at it, would someone please explain to me how this has become public knowledge without a single media investigation? Could that be because it has more holes than John Jackson's socks?
You don't get to be a billionaire without some jealous idiots making up stupid stories to discredit you, and I would bet the Caudwell fortune that this is one of them.
But, I would urge Robert or anyone else gullible enough to believe this to call the police. If you really think you have evidence of a murder, call the police and have the killers brought to justice.
Or email John Caudwell and urge him to investigate. Surely he'd want the killers of the man who saved his life found and punished?
No? Not gonna do it?
Thanks for the clarifications John. Seen in the way you express it these events are not paranormal. It is an interesting story though and I think I'll look into it some more before reaching a final decision about it.
Robert_S
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