Glucosamine - any good?

[Melanie]

Any thoughts on glucosamine? Physiotherapist says my constant back pain is likely due to arthritis (tho that's not a diagnosis, he stresses) and g. has been recommended twice by good friends, one a sports dietician who knows her stuff. I have found websites that detail medical studies showing the apparent efficacy of g. over ibuprofen, but wonder if any of you lot know any different? I will probably try it anyway - reached the stage where something really has to be done about this debilitating pain - but side effects of long-term use would be useful to know before I start.

Thanks!

[Aardvark]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ucosamine.html

http://www.arc.org.uk/newsviews/pres.../glutrails.htm

http://www.arc.org.uk/newsviews/press/feb2001/gluco.htm

Start here and read all you can.

In short, shouldn't do you any harm other than lighten your wallet, may have some benefit?

Caveat emptor

[Mongrel]

First step is to get to your doctor if arthritis is suspected, they'll be able to say yes or no.

If it is arthritis then yes it can help, this Bandolier article is worth a read. Also if the doctor confirms the diagnosis you're able to get glucosamine on prescription :)

[Melanie]

Thanks a lot for the links, guys. Have read up, decided it's worth a try, and have bought some in lieu of seeing doc, getting a proper diagnosis and getting it on prescription... I'll let you know if it works, though from all accounts it could take a couple of months. This pain is so constant, if it eases there can be no other reason!

[Admin]

Glucosamine claims have the hallmarks of quackery but that's probably because of the alt. meddlers exaggerated claims for it.

My mother has arthritis and has used glucosamine so I decided to look into it a while back.

I was encouraged by reports on Bandolier that there is some evidence for its efficacy, although it's not really much more effective than taking ibuprofen (or similar).

I guess it's a case of whether you feel like you're benefiting from it (placebo effects et al :D) and whether the effects are cost effective.

It's, currently, supported by evidence so well worth a try IMO.

[Outsider]

Thanks a lot for the links, guys. Have read up, decided it's worth a try, and have bought some in lieu of seeing doc, getting a proper diagnosis and getting it on prescription... I'll let you know if it works, though from all accounts it could take a couple of months. This pain is so constant, if it eases there can be no other reason!

Hi Melanie,

I'd love to know how you're getting on with this...
I had a terrible couple of months from last October of constant neck/shoulder pain and limited movement so I gave glucosamine a go, (and since all my arthritis blood tests came back negative, it's self administered. I didn't want to rely on Painkillers/NSAIDS because they make my psoriasis worse).

After a month's worth of glucosamine, the pain in my neck and shoulder has subsided and I have almost full movement back. Because of this, I feel I would be crazy to stop taking it.

Hope yours has helped...

[ann]

If it is any help both my husband and I have been helped by Glucosomin :)

A few wee points.

Not helped RADICALLY - but discomfort definately much better, his hands and my knee - and wear and tear seems to be less obvious.

There is scientific evidence that this product does help replenish the Synovial Fluid around the joints, which is a simple sugar, and protects the joints from harm - and we loose this with age - or sports etc.

But it does take time - symptoms do not ease for at least 3 months - and that is on the highest dose - so it is important not to give up in despair but to keep on taking the tablets or liquid, because just purchasing one month's supply and then never again because nothing happened will not work for you.

Once it begins to work, you shold take it for the rest of your life, with wee breaks to allow your body to act on its own accord.

By the way the same applies to herbal medicines such as St. John's Wort, Echinacea and Milk Thistle. Only take for 1 month to 6 weeks, then let your body have a rest. And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves with the help of this herb and you no longer need to take it. The liver is self healing and only requires a month of MT and Echinacea is dangerous for longterm use and tricks the body into thinking it doesn't have to do any work! >:(

Ann

[Araneus]

I'm seeing a lot of potential regression fallacies in these anecdotes. A large amount of back/neck/shoulder pain could reasonably be expected to disappear by itself in a matter of months, no matter what remedies are taken.

(I'm not offering an opinion on glucosamine either way however, I've never even heard of it before)

[Admin]

Apart from a couple of things which show a slight effect, I think that the vast majority of herbal products simply rely on placebo effects. The regressive fallacy being one of the major ones.

And we should also remember that those herbs that do have an effect do so because of the drugs they contain. It makes no difference whether a drug is manufactured in a plant or in a laboratory - to think that 'natural' drugs are harmless or better than synthetic drugs is to make the naturalistic fallacy.

St. John's Wort is known to interfere with many prescription drugs one of which is the blood-thinning drug Warfarin. Taking St. John's Wort, whilst on Warfarin, in the belief that it is natural therefore harmless could be fatal (!)

And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves

How would anyone know this?

If the person feels somewhat better after six weeks it may be because they took the St John's Wort whilst they were at their worst and would have improved anyway (the regressive fallacy again).

Yes, there's clinical evidence to support St. John's Wort for use in mild depression but it's all too easy to attribute coincidental recovery to whatever remedy is being taken at the time. The Post-Hoc fallacy.

Echinacea, for example, does not fare well in trials yet people will swear by it. See: http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band109/b109-7.html

Most evidence for these products is anecdotal and in large part attributable to the many ways that we can fool ourselves into believing things that are not so rather than any properties of the treatments.

[ann]

Quote
And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves

How would anyone know this?

Because there has been extensive research in Germany which proves the herbs effectiveness.

Ann

[kath23]

But other research has said St Johns Wort is no better than placebo, hasn't it? Hence it isn't prescribed by GPs in the UK.

Also it interacts with a great deal of medications for many different conditions. I can't take it as I take an epilepsy type med, and my partner has had a transplant so he can't take it.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/special_r...on/stjwort.htm

interacts with other drugs causing them to metabolise through the body too quickly. This is obviously very significant for people on the contraceptive pill or the blood-thinning drug warfarin, who are at risk of a stroke.

Warnings issued

The Medicines Control Agency issued a warning on March 1st 2000 that patients who are on a long list of drugs should stop taking St John's wort until they have consulted their GP or pharmacist. Medications for asthma, epilepsy, depression, migraine and heart problems are all implicated.

The authorities in the Irish Republic have gone further by banning the over-the-counter sale of the ancient herbal remedy since January 1st 2000. It is now available only on prescription.

In the United States, the Food and Drugs Administration (FDA) issued a warning in February 2000 that the herb could interfere with drugs used to treat HIV-infected patients. It also raised the possibility of complications for other patients taking similar medication, including those undergoing heart transplants. The FDA cited research showing that for patients taking St John's wort, the effectiveness of the antiviral drug Indinavir was 'dulled'.

[ann]

Precisely - so one should always see either your GP to find out if there are any contra-indications to St. John's Wort, or a Medical Herbalist. Medical Herbalism is now a Degree course in many Universities and consequently Herbalists are highly qualified in the subject of which herb to take for what and avoiding any contra-indications. If there are no contra-indications, St. John's Wort is a very useful alternative for mild depression than Prozac. Without any Placebo effect It really DOES work.


With regard to plants as medicines, what then is Tamoxifen, which has saved many lives of women with breast cancer, other than plant based form the Yew Tree?

We already know of dozens of plants that are vital to modern western medicine, and there are thousands more used in traditional and herbal remedies. Below are a few examples.

Plant Medical use
Rosy periwinkle Chemical extracts enable four out of five children with leukaemia to recover.


Foxglove Extracts regulate the heartbeat of people with heart ailments

Curare Produces a muscle relaxant used in surgery

White birch Some tests have shown it may be effective in killing melanoma (skin cancer) cells

Velvet bean Used in the treatment of Parkinson's disease

Himalayan yew Produces taxol, which is used to treat several forms of cancer

Willow Extracts inspired the development of aspirin

Cinchona tree Quinine is extracted from the bark and used to treat malaria

Wild yam Extracts are modified to produce oestrogen, which is used in birth control pills.

And dear old Aspirin already mentioned above

So we can see medicines come from many plants.

Ann

[Admin]

Quote
And example of this is if you have only mild depression, and take St. JW for 6 weeks, and then leave it - you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves

How would anyone know this?

Because there has been extensive research in Germany which proves the herbs effectiveness.

Ann

The herb's effectiveness (for mild depression) is not in question.

I asked the question because statements like "you may well find your seratonin levels have readjusted themselves" are purely speculative. If someone self-diagnoses themselves as 'mildly depressed' and takes St. John's Wort for 6 weeks and then feel better it may well be the regressive fallacy in action as explained above.

A person has no idea of what their seratonin levels are or whether they're truly depressed or temporarily feeling run down.

The point I'm making is that self-diagnosis and self-prescription can lead to anecdotal evidence that is completely wrong (!)

[Admin]

St. John's Wort is a very useful alternative for mild depression than Prozac. Without any Placebo effect It really DOES work.

No. All treatments have a placebo effect component. It's only those that have an effect above placebo that are termed efficacious.

With regard to plants as medicines, what then is Tamoxifen, which has saved many lives of women with breast cancer, other than plant based form the Yew Tree?

We already know of dozens of plants that are vital to modern western medicine, and there are thousands more used in traditional and herbal remedies. Below are a few examples.

Plant Medical use
Rosy periwinkle Chemical extracts enable four out of five children with leukaemia to recover.


Foxglove Extracts regulate the heartbeat of people with heart ailments

Curare Produces a muscle relaxant used in surgery

White birch Some tests have shown it may be effective in killing melanoma (skin cancer) cells

Velvet bean Used in the treatment of Parkinson's disease

Himalayan yew Produces taxol, which is used to treat several forms of cancer

Willow Extracts inspired the development of aspirin

Cinchona tree Quinine is extracted from the bark and used to treat malaria

Wild yam Extracts are modified to produce oestrogen, which is used in birth control pills.

And dear old Aspirin

So we can see medicines come from many plants.

You're preaching to the converted here.

We know that nature is a rich source of medicinally useful drugs.

What skeptics object to is the use of such herbs etc. by unqualified quacks who think they know what the herbs can be used for whilst having zero scientific understanding of what they're really doing.

Herbs can be dangerous - even lethal. And with a lack of real understanding of these products, we'll always be faced with stories like this: http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary...hp?d=07-06#clt

So yes, herbs can be very useful for medicine but it's through science that their benefits will be realised: not quackery.

[ann]

I totally agree about the 'quackery' point John

My point about Medical Herbalists really tried to highlight the way we have moved on in our understanding of this, by making them go through a very tough Degree Course, which I personally know about through a friend who has just completed hers. Hopefully no one with any sense will go to anyone who is not thus qualified in the future.

I would draw issue with you as regards Prozac though, as the side effects are anything other than acceptable in most people and therefore most difficult to separate the effects of the drug from any 'placebo' effect they may have.


Ann