Classic clip.
Clarity of expression. Oh how I long to be able to so confidently and calmly dismiss whatever tosh I encounter, and with such brevity!
So, ta for that one Bindeweede.
On a stats note, any reliable evidence out there of death bed conversions to religions by atheists?
I would posit that there may be a great many people who were fed the myths of heaven and hell when very young, but fell away from their religion for lack of any deep faith or interest in the ceremony etc, but, when faced with death, have all those early implanted ideas come flooding back, and in fear and sense of self-loss, do declare they are death-bed converted. Any atheist who has any depth of conviction on the subject is far more likely to die that way imho.
In my case the latter based on the fact that it is much easier than bloody worrying whether I will go to the upper or lower house.
Great clip.
On the one hand believers will tend to want to believe loved ones were 'saved' at the last moment. On the other hand, anyone with a heart does not wish to upset loved ones. So, if dying, it may be tempting to save worry on the part of deluded but healthy, mourning, religious loved ones and 'go along' with their desire to hear you say you 'believe' with your last breathOriginally Posted by Dubious Dick
Any stats there are would be unreliable.
Hmm, what a choice...a literal eternity of doing nothing but singing hosannas, no booze, no sex, as opposed to joining all my friends
Now if the hereafter was as depicted at the end of 'Ashes to Ashes' - a really good, convivial pub filled with all your mates - that would be appealing (at least for a while).
But the more I think of the prospect of an eternity of doing anything at all, the more attractive oblivion appears.
I think we might count Anthony Flew as having 'converted' to religion - at least the Christians claim it. He pronounced a year or two ago that he accepted there might be a creater outwith the universe. Of course, if there were such a creator it would not be the Christian god be any stretch of the imagination and such an admission really only amounts to the possibility but theists rush to claim anything as a victory for their cause.
Even that much is up for debate. Exactly how aware was Flew of his own pronouncements?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/ma.../04Flew-t.html
Either way he was clearly not the same intellect who wrote Theology and FalsificationIn “There Is a God,” Flew quotes extensively from a conversation he had with Leftow, a professor at Oxford. So I asked Flew, “Do you know Brian Leftow?”
“No,” he said. “I don’t think I do.”
“Do you know the work of the philosopher John Leslie?” Leslie is discussed extensively in the book.
Flew paused, seeming unsure. “I think he’s quite good.” But he said he did not remember the specifics of Leslie’s work.
“Have you ever run across the philosopher Paul Davies?” In his book, Flew calls Paul Davies “arguably the most influential contemporary expositor of modern science.”
“I’m afraid this is a spectacle of my not remembering!”
He said this with a laugh. When we began the interview, he warned me, with merry self-deprecation, that he suffers from “nominal aphasia,” or the inability to reproduce names. But he forgot more than names. He didn’t remember talking with Paul Kurtz about his introduction to “God and Philosophy” just two years ago. There were words in his book, like “abiogenesis,” that now he could not define. When I asked about Gary Habermas, who told me that he and Flew had been friends for 22 years and exchanged “dozens” of letters, Flew said, “He and I met at a debate, I think.” I pointed out to him that in his earlier philosophical work he argued that the mere concept of God was incoherent, so if he was now a theist, he must reject huge chunks of his old philosophy. “Yes, maybe there’s a major inconsistency there,” he said, seeming grateful for my insight. And he seemed generally uninterested in the content of his book — he spent far more time talking about the dangers of unchecked Muslim immigration and his embrace of the anti-E.U. United Kingdom Independence Party.
As he himself conceded, he had not written his book.
“This is really Roy’s doing,” he said, before I had even figured out a polite way to ask. “He showed it to me, and I said O.K. I’m too old for this kind of work!”
When I asked Varghese, he freely admitted that the book was his idea and that he had done all the original writing for it. But he made the book sound like more of a joint effort — slightly more, anyway. “There was stuff he had written before, and some of that was adapted to this,” Varghese said. “There is stuff he’d written to me in correspondence, and I organized a lot of it. And I had interviews with him. So those three elements went into it. Oh, and I exposed him to certain authors and got his views on them. We pulled it together. And then to make it more reader-friendly, HarperCollins had a more popular author go through it.”
So even the ghostwriter had a ghostwriter: Bob Hostetler, an evangelical pastor and author from Ohio, rewrote many passages, especially in the section that narrates Flew’s childhood. With three authors, how much Flew was left in the book? “He went through everything, was happy with everything,” Varghese said.
As Chris Hitchens has recently had unfortunate cause to say.
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/fe...itchens-201010
"As a terrified, half-aware imbecile, I might even scream for a priest at the close of business, though I hereby state while I am still lucid that the entity thus humiliating itself would not in fact be 'me.' (Bear this in mind, in case of any later rumors or fabrications.)"
I know this is about BR but had not picked up that CH was ill. Thanks for info Matt. If he reads us then may he get well soon. He would be sorely missed as a fine standard bearer for the cause. Interesting that in some ways his illness gives him more freedom to attack religion on one of its core issues, but would of course prefer he did not have to through it.
Love the fact that different congregations are praying for him. Must give him a bit of a giggle. Hope so.
I'll raise a glass of malt in his honour this evening. Might have a fag as well (that's cigarette for our American viewers!)
Excellent find Tom
As for deathbed conversions it would be expected that there have and will be some. Whether though it is through coherent thought or medication dulling the mental processes ...... I think that should be taken into consideration by the Christians proclaiming some kind of victory.There can't be a practical reason for believing something that isn't true. Either it is or it isn't.
If you can't find out whether it's true or not you should suspend judgement.
It is alleged that my Uncle Bernard’s last words, spoken while dying in hospital to a Roman Catholic priest who was touting for business, were: “Fuck off you fucking parasite.”
If you don’t believe then you don’t believe. One of the reasons that religionists always get this sort of thing wrong is their confusion that we chose not to believe, like you choose a football team to support.
If I was to engage in a deathbed conversion then I’d go for Wodin and Valhalla; a lot more interesting than the Christians’ idea of a god and afterlife.
If you die in bed then chances are you're going to the sacred mountain Helgafjell, or if you're to be punish then Hel. Valhalla is strictly for (half of) those who fall in combat. (With the other half going to Fólkvangr)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_i...nism#Afterlife
Definitely.
Also, some reported deathbed conversions will be down to either wishful thinking or outright deception, whether deception is hoping to promote faith in general, to improve the standing of the deceased in the eyes of believers, or to comfort some other believing relative or friend who wasn't there at the time.
There's also the fact that someone dying in bed (at hospital or at home) could well be more or less off their face on one or other opiate, or suffering from the effects of one or other disease, and could be imagining all kinds of things brought up from childhood indoctrination, or saying things that don't actually make much sense but which could easily be interpreted as having a religious leaning.
Well, I am still here so not been on any deathbed but when one is really feeling off (like ITU off) I rather think one will say anything that stops people going on so just agreeing with an over zealous clergy person might be the thing one would do. When I was in there, I kept sropping off anyway so had a clergy person come to see me they might have been able to do what they wanted as I would possibly not have been aware enough.
In more aware times in ordinary wards I can say that although some clergy come to see particular people, hospital chaplains are rather inclined to wander from bed to bed posing a danger to those not expecting them.
Yes BUT...
Just as most Christians have their own personal god and heaven and are sure that they'll be OK when they snuff it regardless of all the things they do in contradiction of the gumph in their holy book and the teachings of various men in dresses, so I can have my own made-up unique version of Valhalla that will let me in even if i die of a heart attack while being blown by polomint. It's my personal faith, don't tell me what I can't believe in you nazi atheist bully.
I'm with Bob. As soon as I'm on my last legs, I'll pick a fight with the first well meaning Christian to make the mistake of praying for me! Won't let up until I'm in Valhalla!
If yer going to change yer mind you may as well aim for something worthwhile! Heaven sounds awfully dull....
Ah! Just seen Bob's last post. Let me make it clear that any Polomint related fantasies are not shared by this particular would be Norse hero...
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