tkforums.com - a real psi forum?

[xowoot]

I'm very confused about tkforums.com. This forum is about training psychic abilities and most users and all admins there claim that they have psychic abilities. It has ~1000 members, ~1600 topics and ~23000 posts. The WHOIS says that it's created on 28-JAN-05 and last updated on 02-FEB-10. The admins are quit active. I wonder how can such a forum exist without psychics being real because I ran out of theories: i don't think a forum can be a scam or fraud, it exists too long to be a joke, and also has too many members for their psi abilities to be actually their delusion... I've also seen some simmilar places like psipog.net and numerous tutorials on how to do telekinesis and pyrokinesis.
Does someone have any ideas?

[Harryprice]

Are you arguing that the existence of the forum means psychics must really have paranormal abilities?

[Croydon Bob]

and also has too many members for their psi abilities to be actually their delusion...

Yup. 1000 members is too many to be delusional. It must be true.

Similarly all the millions of people who think that they've spoken to god must be right, even though most of them were told things that contradict what the others heard. All the Muslims, Christians, Pastafarians, etc can't all be delusional so they must all be correct. And the 1000s of people who all think that they were Cleopatra in a previous life; they must all be correct too.

1000 people sharing the same delusion is 100% proof that it is real.

[xowoot]

Are you arguing that the existence of the forum means psychics must really have paranormal abilities?

Yes

Yup. 1000 members is too many to be delusional. It must be true.

Similarly all the millions of people who think that they've spoken to god must be right, even though most of them were told things that contradict what the others heard. All the Muslims, Christians, Pastafarians, etc can't all be delusional so they must all be correct. And the 1000s of people who all think that they were Cleopatra in a previous life; they must all be correct too.

1000 people sharing the same delusion is 100% proof that it is real.

I quite don't understand how the delusion of psychokinesis is even possible and can last so long (in case of admins). In case of psychokinesis, you have to see the object actually moving. In case of religion, you don't have to see anything and there are also many fake "miracles".

[Harryprice]

I quite don't understand how the delusion of psychokinesis is even possible and can last so long (in case of admins). In case of psychokinesis, you have to see the object actually moving. In case of religion, you don't have to see anything.

In many cases of PK, the object is not SEEN to move at all. Instead it is found not in the place where it was supposedly left. In such cases it is most likely a lapse of memory or someone else moving an object rather than PK.

Regarding psychics, it ios easy to persuade yourself you are psychic if you guess a few things correctly and forget the many more times you get stuff wrong. If you talk a lot to other psychics on a forum they are likely to encourage this belief rather than challenge it.

I've heard it argued that if you consider all the anecdotal evidence for psychic abilities together, it adds up to a convincing case overall. In reality, when individual claims are investigated they do not pass even simple tests. What is needed is just ONE thoroughly documented, completely convincing unarguable case of psychic ability. Lots of stories together just adds up to a lot of stories.

[xowoot]

In many cases of PK, the object is not SEEN to move at all. Instead it is found not in the place where it was supposedly left. In such cases it is most likely a lapse of memory or someone else moving an object rather than PK.

Regarding psychics, it ios easy to persuade yourself you are psychic if you guess a few things correctly and forget the many more times you get stuff wrong. If you talk a lot to other psychics on a forum they are likely to encourage this belief rather than challenge it.

I've heard it argued that if you consider all the anecdotal evidence for psychic abilities together, it adds up to a convincing case overall. In reality, when individual claims are investigated they do not pass even simple tests. What is needed is just ONE thoroughly documented, completely convincing unarguable case of psychic ability. Lots of stories together just adds up to a lot of stories.

Are these delusions common enough to make such a forum possible?

[Harryprice]

Are these delusions common enough to make such a forum possible?

Evidently so.

[asthmatic camel]

Are these delusions common enough to make such a forum possible?

Delusions are very common, particularly amongst people with mental health problems, of whom there are millions in the UK alone. Many schizophrenics suffer from delusions which are virtually indistinguishable from "psychic phenomena", e.g. hearing voices, having their minds controlled by others and that they are the reincarnation of famous historical figures. Add to them the large number of outright frauds operating in the psychic field, and 1,000 isn't a particularly high number.

Ask yourself why nobody has won James Randi's $1,000,000 if so many have genuine paranormal powers.

[xowoot]

Also what can you tell about psipog.net?

[Harryprice]

Also what can you tell about psipog.net?

It's a big website. Anything in particular?

[Janot]

Are you arguing that the existence of the forum means psychics must really have paranormal abilities?

Yes

But why does this follow? Have you had a look at astrology forums out there? Millions take it seriously. Does it follow that there must be something in it? I don't think so.

[xowoot]

But why does this follow? Have you had a look at astrology forums out there? Millions take it seriously. Does it follow that there must be something in it? I don't think so.

Astrology is easier to belive into I think. To belive in what you have psychokinesis, you have to see the object moving. Yes, there can be delusions, but I don't understand how can they last so long (several years in case of admins of that forum). And BTW can someone explain me this tutorial: http://psipog.net/art-nis-tk-training-manual.html

Some of you might know that I have a TK club in my school and I am proud to say that many of my students progressed a lot since we started to have the meetings. So basically you have very good chances, too. TK can be taught and it can be learned. The only serious difficulty I think is that you mostly don't know anyone who could show you how TK is done. I personally know a girl who could do TK almost instantly after having seen it in action in one of our meetings. Later she had problems like everyone else, too, but that's not the point. The point is that sometimes people can repeat it instantly if they see it. Don't ask me why. I don't know.

Especially this part. How can he teach other people and other people see it?

[Drop Bear]

@Xowoot

There is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of psychic abilities of any kind.None (well there wasn't yesterday)

Your argument seems to be along the lines that there 'must be something in it' because there is a website with 1000 members. That is incorrect.


As it turns out,The Flat Earth Society has a lot more than 1000 members, and there many thousands of people who believe in the non existent efficacy of homeopathy.

You argument is a logical fallacy called 'argumentum ad populum' or 'argument by consensus'

From Wikipedia

In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people, argument by consensus, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy, and in Latin by the names argumentum ad populum ("appeal to the people"), argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect, the spreading of various religious beliefs, and of the Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

[chaggle]

xowoot's point seems to be that it is easy to be deluded by things like astrology, mediums and homeopathy where the results are very non-specific and it is easy to convince oneself that something is happening where in fact nothing is.

With PK on the other hand the results are absolute, specific, easy to determine and unmistakable.

You would have to be much more deluded to believe in PK than you would in astrology. I can understand how people are deluded by astrology. I can't understand how people are that deluded that they believe they can make things move when they can't (unless of course they can!)

I'm with xowoot to the extent that I find it difficult to believe the level of delusion necessary (not that they can make things move).

[smudge]

As it turns out,The Flat Earth Society has a lot more than 1000 members, and there many thousands of people who believe in the non existent efficacy of homeopathy.

Exactly.
Just because many people believe something, or want to believe something, does not make it true.
Xowoot; If the flat Earth society had 3000 members, or 5000 ( or any number as large as you like) would it mean the Earth is flat? Or even a little bit flat?! Would it make the idea any more likely to be true? Or any more sensible?
I think not....