Santa, to de-bunk, or not...?

[smudge]

A Skepticality podcast a while ago discussed this. I wondered what others thought.
I think it's fine and actually healthy for kids to believe in such things. As long as they grow out of it and are taught to think critically as they grow older I think that's fine...
There is another view though....

[DrS]

I think there's nothing wrong with little children "believing" in Father Christmas, it's magical for them and brings such joy, and then finding out later that it was really Mummy and Daddy all the time who were delivering the presents. It could be especially good if the whole process was used as an early exercise in critical thinking, getting the child to see that it couldn't really have been FC because of x, y, and z reasons.

[smudge]

I think there's nothing wrong with little children "believing" in Father Christmas, it's magical for them and brings such joy, and then finding out later that it was really Mummy and Daddy all the time who were delivering the presents. It could be especially good if the whole process was used as an early exercise in critical thinking, getting the child to see that it couldn't really have been FC because of x, y, and z reasons.

My view too.
Nothing wrong with fantasy, even for adults. As long as it's understood to be such!

[Tony Williams]

My favourite Christmas pop song (in fact, the only one I like) is Greg Lake's 'I Believe in Father Christmas'. These are the lyrics, which I think are terrific (the music is good too):

They said there'll be snow at Christmas
They said there'll be peace on Earth
But instead it just kept on raining
A veil of tears for the Virgin's birth
I remember one Christmas morning
A winters light and a distant choir
And the peal of a bell and that Christmas Tree smell
And their eyes full of tinsel and fire
They sold me a dream of Christmas
They sold me a Silent Night
And they told me a fairy story
'Till I believed in the Israelite
And I believed in Father Christmas
And I looked at the sky with excited eyes
'Till I woke with a yawn in the first light of dawn
And I saw him and through his disguise

I wish you a hopeful Christmas
I wish you a brave New Year
All anguish pain and sadness
Leave your heart and let your road be clear
They said there'll be snow at Christmas
They said there'll be peace on Earth
Hallelujah Noel be it Heaven or Hell
The Christmas you get you deserve.

[Drop Bear]

Children are a lot smarter than many adults like admit to and are capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality at an early age.

By that I mean they are capable of understanding there is not really a fat jolly old man who rides a magic sleigh through the air taking presents to millions of children in one night. Debunking the fantasy which is religion takes a longer,most people never manage at all.

I was 4 or 5 when I worked out Father Christmas was really my parents. I kept pretending to believe until I was 8,when I became sure the supply of presents would not cease.

I was about 45 before I finally concluded there are probably no gods.

It's despicable to lie to children (Germaine Greer, childless expert on children)

OF COURSE children should be lied to, as often as possible.How else will they learn that in the real world, constant lying is necessary and expected?

---- It's a matter of context, THAT'S what children need to learn. I have never found the ingenue/passive aggressive arsehole who always tells truth at all charming or endearing. I just want to hurt them,or at least fart in their general direction.

[chaggle]

.... I have never found the ingenue/passive aggressive arsehole who always tells truth at all charming or endearing....

Can I suggest that, if you visit the UK, you avoid Yorkshire?

[smudge]

My favourite Christmas pop song (in fact, the only one I like) is Greg Lake's 'I Believe in Father Christmas'. These are the lyrics, which I think are terrific (the music is good too):

Not familiar with the song, I enjoyed the lyrics though. Perhaps I have heard it but not listened properly...
I'll confess to liking the Slade Chrimbo classic...And In The Bleak Midwinter! Awful lyric...something about the tune though. I know it's wrong wrong wrong, but cant help myself!

Children are a lot smarter than many adults like admit to and are capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality at an early age.

I was about 45 before I finally concluded there are probably no gods.

Children vary in this though...I had pretty much worked it out by 5, my sister had not and was a little upset when told at 6/7 though. Kids differ in age of working it out. You wonder if it were not for playground jokes and chatter from the 'knowing', how old would some Santa believers be before they did work it out?! And would it become increasingly traumatic to discover the truth the older they got??!!

Strangely, I had the god thing nailed at about 9. Never stacked up for me. I think an enthusiasm for the Greek and Norse God stories as a boy helped. I'd rather have believed in Thor than the Bible. Though neither were ever believable realistically.

OF COURSE children should be lied to, as often as possible.How else will they learn that in the real world, constant lying is necessary and expected?

---- It's a matter of context, THAT'S what children need to learn. I have never found the ingenue/passive aggressive arsehole who always tells truth at all charming or endearing. I just want to hurt them,or at least fart in their general direction.

Hmm...interesting point...
I do suffer from being "honest to a fault" at times myself! (Please Drop Bear, no farting!) I am able to lie like the 'best' if need be, for compassionate reasons.

Can I suggest that, if you visit the UK, you avoid Yorkshire?

[Croydon Bob]

Not familiar with the song, I enjoyed the lyrics though. Perhaps I have heard it but not listened properly...

But it's a classic Christmas pop hit that gets played every year! Greg Lake is best remembered now for this one song, but also for being in Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Originally he was famous for being in King Crimson but nobody remembers them now. Robert Fripp of King Crimson married Toyah who did a really shite cover of I Believe in Father Christmas.

Greg Lake version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqOfXumI18A

[skbuncks]

On the subject of favourite Chrimbo tunes I'm a bit partial to Fountains of Wayne's I want an alien for christmas

This year for Christmas
There's something I'd really like
So if you're up there somewhere Santa
Please don't bring me another bike

I don't need any ugly sweaters
And I don't play much basketball
But there's something kinda special
That I want most of all...

I want an alien for Christmas
Bring me an alien this year
I want a little green guy
About three feet high
With seventeen eyes

Who knows how to fly
I want an alien for Christmas this year

He can live in the bath tub
So don't worry about a thing
And I'll take him out for walks
When it gets nicer in the Spring

I'll always keep him company
He'll never be alone
And we can hang around the house all day
And watch the Twilight Zone

I want an alien for Christmas
Bring me an alien this year
I want a little green guy

About three feet high
With seventeen eyes
Who knows how to fly
I want an alien for Christmas this year

I want an alien for Christmas
Bring me an alien this year
I want a little green guy
About three feet high
With seventeen eyes

Who knows how to fly
I want an alien for Christmas this year
I want an alien for Christmas this year

skb

[chaggle]

..And In The Bleak Midwinter! Awful lyric...something about the tune though. I know it's wrong wrong wrong, but cant help myself!

Nothing wrong with liking a good tune and both the tunes for that are good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Bleak_Midwinter

"In the Bleak Midwinter" is a Christmas carol.
Although the lyrics were written as a poem by English poet Christina Rossetti before 1872, it was published posthumously in Rossetti's Poetic Works in 1904 and became a Christmas carol after it appeared in The English Hymnal in 1906 with a setting by Holst.
According to the website CyberHymnal, Rossetti wrote these words in response to a request from the magazine Scribner's Monthly for a Christmas poem.[1]
In 2008 Harold Darke's setting was named the best Christmas carol in a poll of some of the world's leading choirmasters and choral experts.[2]

The Holst version is the one most people know but I prefer the Darke version.



I don't suppose many here will watch that - maybe bindedweede?

[smudge]

But it's a classic Christmas pop hit that gets played every year! Greg Lake is best remembered now for this one song, but also for being in Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Originally he was famous for being in King Crimson but nobody remembers them now. Robert Fripp of King Crimson married Toyah who did a really shite cover of I Believe in Father Christmas.

Ah! THAT one! Yes.....I think my brain just switches off as soon as I hear "a veil of tears for the Virgin's birth" and all I hear is candy floss chrimbo nonsense! I rarely listen to mainstream music.
So,thanks for enlightening me and thanks Tony for allowing me to enjoy the full lyrics!

Nothing wrong with liking a good tune and both the tunes for that are good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Bleak_Midwinter

I don't suppose many here will watch that - maybe bindedweede?

Lovely tune....just find the words too annoying to put up with!
Now if you could find me an instrumental version you might make me happy!

[Tony Williams]

Ah! THAT one! Yes.....I think my brain just switches off as soon as I hear "a veil of tears for the Virgin's birth" and all I hear is candy floss chrimbo nonsense! I rarely listen to mainstream music.
So,thanks for enlightening me and thanks Tony for allowing me to enjoy the full lyrics!

Pleased to help! One thing which intrigues me is the title - the actual line in the song is "I believed in Father Christmas" but it was changed in the title to "I believe in Father Christmas", which totally misrepresents the song. I wonder if some advertising exec got cold feet at the thought of frightening the punters with something that wasn't completely schmaltzy...

[bindeweede]

Nothing wrong with liking a good tune and both the tunes for that are good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Bleak_Midwinter



The Holst version is the one most people know but I prefer the Darke version.




I don't suppose many here will watch that - maybe bindedweede?

Just the thing for a sunny (ish) April morning. Yes, "chaggers", I agree with you - the Darke version is much more appealing and interesting, with each verse being arranged differently.

[bindeweede]

Lovely tune....just find the words too annoying to put up with!
Now if you could find me an instrumental version you might make me happy!

Well, there is this which might be to your taste. Not mine, I'm afraid.



Atmospheric pics are quite nice.

[smudge]

Well, there is this which might be to your taste. Not mine, I'm afraid.



Atmospheric pics are quite nice.

Thank you! Enjoyed that and the pics made me want to go for a hike! Not even close to the Darke version (or at least the half I can get through by ignoring the words)... I just can't deal with that once the 'holy' lyrics kick in....
I am sure there must be a way of just appreciating the voices as sounds....beyond my abilities at present I'm sad to say!