He calls himself a Nuclear engineer on the site, not a scienist, although I am not sure what difference that makes.Originally Posted by Kastor
I once met an old guy who walked into my office off the street claiming to have perfected a perpetual motion machine, or something. He said it was an engine which ran without fuel. I told him that it sounded very exciting but that it was not something I could help him with knowing next to nothing about patents etc. (not quite true, but I had to get rid of him somehow). Come to think of it, that guy was actually more convincing than this Keshe dude.
I thought the usual pattern was that someone claims they've almost perfected their machine, and they're convinced that if they (or the engineer/company they're talking to) could just get rid of that last little bit of friction, or use slightly more exotic materials, the thing would finally work.
The bloke claimed he had the plans for the whole machine in his head. Although I didn't question him about it too closely, my impression was that it was a theoretical construct and that he had not built the thing yet. Perhaps the "almost perfected" stage would have come later.
I guess it depends how practical the person is.
As for Keshe, he's certainly got his spammers out all over the place, posting supportive pieces in all kinds of places.
I think it is just him. There are a massive number of references to him scattered across the interweb, possibly fooling some people into thinking he is, at some level, genuine. But wherever people are bigging him up they have the same strange grasp of the English language. He claims to be an Iranian living in Belgium, and has very good English if that is true, but how odd that all the people who have stumbled across him and want to share the good news make the same mistakes that he does...
It's the same on his forum. Although several of the posters have distinct personalities and styles, several others only praise him in the same kind of English that he writes.
One would almost think that he has nothing better to do than spend all day plugging himself. Surely there's all that inventing work to be done?
Very true. Most of the posts are by Keshe himself. Now he has introduced a rule. He says all posts on his forum will be moderated. Only ones supporting him will be allowed. In other words he is introducing censorship on his forum. Not a good sign.
Euh, this guy lives nearby my town and i have a friend (a doctor, and very skeptical)who knows him personally and seen some of the stuff he can do. I don't think it's a scam, because he has witnessed some amazing things. And apparantly he's going to be recruited by the Americans.There is a new antigravity scamster called Keshe. He claims the usual that the government is suppressing him. Same old story. Typical pseudoscientific scam. Website is www.keshespace.com/ . He is trying to get money from people promising to take people to space by 2014. This guy is a great conman. He has not yet peer reviewed his work but claims that other scientists are too dumb to peer review his work. I wonder who is really dumb.
But not having witnessed it myself, I am starting to doubt now....
That's a tricky one. sometimes people who are generally skeptical can be quite easy to fool about things outside their areas of expertise.
If it's a medical doctor you're talking about, I don't think that medics are especially immune to being misled.
In which case, he wouldn't need to sell books, do demonstration tours, or in fact publicise himself at all on the Internet, when it fact it seems like he (maybe with a few helpers) is doing his best to hype himself all over the place.
If what he claims was actually even slightly true, it'd seem strange that he hadn't been snapped up long ago, whether voluntarily or otherwise.
Also, why would he need to tell everyone he was about to be recruited?
If I was actually in negotiations to sell a world-changing invention to a superpower, why would I need to tell everyone, even if the people I was negotiating with were happy for me to do that (which I imagine they may well not be)?
On the other hand, claiming upcoming success does have obvious value for people running a scam, and is also understandable if someone has deluded themselves into believing they're actually a genius.
That seems a sensible approach.
The hype thing is really the key.
*I* have a good reason to advertise products I make, since the end users of those products might see my advertising , and therefore buy more, but that's because my products are retail ones.
If I was doing things at a more wholesale business-to-business level, and there were some obvious potential clients, I'd be putting a good fraction of my effort into direct contact with those possible, less so on general advertising.
If I hadn't actually designed a working product, but just had some interesting prototypes, or maybe just ideas, I'd likely concentrate all my efforts on development and contacting likely customers, and not do anything in public.
There wouldn't be any need for general publicity, people I was talking to might prefer me to be publicly silent, and unless I was absolutely sure I had rock-solid patents, talking publicly would be shooting myself in the foot.
Once I'd sorted a deal out with a large organisation, their engineers and patent experts could sort things out and get some watertight patents while I was banking my money.
Proof that Keshe is shady. He fits all the descriptions. He is doing everything word for word.>
WARNING WARNING WARNING!
DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO PEOPLE INVOLVED IN "FREE ENERGY"!!!!
Several legitimate free energy researchers do exist, but they don't spend huge amounts on advertising like the scammers do. You probably won't have heard of them. The people who pursue wide publicity are almost all scam artists. If someone is making large amounts of money from selling books and videos on free energy, be very suspicious. If someone is selling plans for "real" free-energy devices, they are a ripoff. Don't waste your money. Or if someone is selling "Dealer ships" or invest ment oppor tunities for a free energy corp, hold tight to your wallet and RUN! Or, if you've already let them get their hands on your money, ask to see proof of the FE device, and see what excuse you're given. (It will be a very convincing excuse. Scam artists don't act sneaky. Scam artists survive because they seem far MORE honest and honorable than a normal person.) Remember that the "con" in "con game" means "confidence." They win your confidence first, then they go after your money. How to tell the difference between a con game and a real product? Easy: if you give them money before receiving a working FE device, then it's a scam, always.
How can we tell a free energy scam from an honest FE researcher? Here are some symptoms of a scam:
The researcher wants your money. He wants people to invest, he wants subscribers for expensive newsletters, wants to sell "Dealer ships", he wants individuals to make large "donations." Or sometimes he wants to sell you extremely expensive plans which do not work... or to sell you all sorts of books and videos about devices which don't do anything real. In any scam, the WHOLE POINT is to separate the victims from their wallets. (If absolutely no money is involved, then the researcher might be legit... or the scam might be less obvious.) Some scammers say that they want to improve the world (etc.), but then they somehow always avoid doing this. They keep secrets, they run complex buisness deals... they do all sorts of things except the most obvious ones: sending out simple and obvious proof to everyone, and getting working FE devices out into the public by all possible methods.
You'll notice that the scammer uses deception. Now we all know that the "FE" field is similar to people selling maps to lost gold mines, or it's like the used car arena: honest dealers may exist, but they are rare. The majority of publicized FE companies are con-artists selling worthless junk to gullible people. For this reason, real FE researchers are careful to remain scruptiously honest. They bend over backwards to avoid misleading anyone even a little. They have deep habits of honesty, and they don't tell all those little lies which would be acceptable in other situations. So if you notice a researcher using even the smallest "politician ploy" or "marketing techniques," then you're almost certainly dealing with a con-man. If you point out these failings, they'll give sensible excuses. But the symptom is the lack of brutal bend-over-backwards honesty.
How can we tell? Just ask the F/E hobbyists. While most "skeptics" are hopelessly biased, and will dishonestly claim that ALL free-energy inventors are scammers, you can still ask the online F/E community. They'll quickly set you straight about who is a ripoff artist and who is a legit experimenter.
FE hobby sites
Peswiki: Magniwork scam, Magnets4Energy scam
PESWiki free energy resource
"Energy saving" scams
Adsitt's Scam Watch
NuScam (Perreault)
The invention violates current laws of physics. Well, that's OK, since historical inventions often violate the physics theories of their time. But if many other listed symptoms are present as well, then it's a scam.
The invention is unproven. It has not yet splashed itself across news headlines worldwide. "NEW SOURCE OF ENERGY DISCOVERED IN USA!" Nope. Scams always involve unproven inventions. Unproven inventions might be real or might not. But scammers often hide behind this fuzzy status.
The inventor keeps the device secret. That, or their patent lacks some critical information and nobody can build a working copy based on the patent. (A small critical piece of info remains secret.)
The scammer usually has a good website. Make that a GREAT website. Well, actually their website looks like it was build by site-design experts who charge enormous fees. Wow, look at that thing, how could they afford to create such an expensive monstrous "online facade?" And that's it exactly: FACADE. The scammers spend all their resources making an airtight facade: a false front which looks trustworthy. Sometimes it looks far more trustworthy than any legit company's website. It certainly looks more trustworthy than the website of a legit inventor. REAL inventors' websites are crap, since they're made by the inventor (since inventors can't afford to pay anyone, and also, why pay for something that you can build yourself?)
It's NOT the company's number one goal to prove that the invention is real. The scam company seems to have no goal besides creating an aura of attractive secrets: secrets which will only be revealed to an in-group of "superior" blue-blooded investors, while we rabble on the outside are obviously inferior since we haven't invested and don't know the secrets. (It's the old "treasure map" trick, playing up your victims' self-importance.) Scamsters have all sorts of other tricks to appeal to snobbery or inflate the egos of investors. They also have many really sensible excuses for not proving that their discovery is real. But honest companies just sit down and prove their claims beyond any doubt BEFORE gathering investors. After all, its unethical to take investors' money for extremely questionable and totally unproven devices as if they were normal inventions developed by reliable companies.
The company performs public demonstrations... but something always goes wrong. If it's a scam, then the "failure" was planned all along. When the inventor starts a demonstration, watch for the "failure" which excuses the inventor from having to actually prove the device. Or more rarely, the demonstration is simple fraud, such as a hidden power supply, or something similar to water-to-gasoline chemistry demonstrations where the stirring spoon has a wax plug which melts and releases the gasoline from a hidden pocket.
The inventor doesn't publish successful scientific research papers (i.e. he doesn't publish detailed replication instructions,) or if he does, other researchers can't get them to work. Something vital wasn't included.
The inventor uses Grand Conspiracies or government supression as an excuse. Yes, actual suppression and small, non-grand conspiracies really do exist. Some inventors have genuine horror stories about these. But if it's ALWAYS "the conspiracy's fault" and the inventor cannot test the device or even show good evidence that it works, or can't make progress despite years of investments or "donations," can't reveal history of the work, can't reveal device details... if "The Conspiracy" is to blame, or if "The Oil Companies have made threats," then it's a scam.
You risk being labeled as a "Scoffer" or "Government Spy." Some scammers manipulate their audience using the following ploy: "If you're not fighting for me, then obviously you must be against me." The scammer won't let you remain undecided about their invention. Instead he pressures and manipulates you to become his supporter. In other words, if you dare to look for their flaws, or dare insist on clear and simple evidence, and if you refuse to jump on the scammer's bandwagon, you'll be attacked by the scammer and his supporters. They'll try to apply labels to you: "untrusting," or "Nasty Skeptic," or "CIA infiltrator." Even worse, other undecided people will see this happen. Those people may join the bandwagon out of fear; to avoid being accused of Witchcraft as you were. (In some communities, one accusation of Skepticism will get you permanently banished.) If you see this ploy in use, then you're certainly dealing with a seasoned expert in con-artist tactics.
The inventor doesn't give out working copies of the invention to independent labs for testing (the hardware stays secret and untested.)
Oh, did I forget to mention that the invention remains secret? :) Secret, secret, secret! Secrecy equals scam, scam equals secrecy.
The inventor makes one statement, then contradicts himself later. This string of lies may not be obvious, but is revealed by comparing various statements. A classic version is "The idea was given to me by god" ...followed later by "I must keep the invention a secret so idea-theives can't steal it." (Hmmm. If god has gifted mankind with the secret of free energy, why is this guy keeping it hidden, and worse, trying to make money off it?!! Gifts from god are supposed to CONTROLLED? And SOLD?!)
The inventor hasn't tried winning any of the FE device prizes. Back in the days of flying machines, the genuine inventors were all questing after the several major prizes. They didn't distain the prizes and make excuses for not competing. But scammers sure do!
SEE: another list
I don't see how they could be both researchers and legitimate. If they're so stupid that they think free energy is possible then they're hardly likely to be doing real research. What you mean is that there are some idiots wasting their, and everyone else's, time who are not scamming, just thick.
The honest ones will be the clueless ones.
Evidence? If you're going to post that on a skeptics site then at least try to back your pathetic lie with some evidence.
An example? Just one example? Go on...
.
So you turn out to be just another loony promoting your own free energy nonsense by attacking someone else's? How disappointing.
Actually I dont believe in free energy. All free energy inventors are false. Actually the first part is not correct. Should have edited that part out. There are no free energy scientists at all. That is all BS. But most of the article is correct. All the ones that describe scam artists are correct. There is no such thing as free energy and antigravity. Both are just theory at the moment with no proof. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. If the US and other governments had antigravity devices like theses pseudoscientists are saying how come it never came out. Only a couple of weirdos like the Disclosure project which is a favorite on Keshes pages. They are all scams including Searl, Hamel. I dont believe I once fell for these people. I even took part in the Disclosure project because I once thought it was cool. Now I know otherwise. All free energy and UFO guys are basically scam artists unless they can produce repeatable results and as far as I know there are no legitimate free energy guys. I was once a believer and am now a full skeptic. I have gone 360 degress. These guys dont know how to convince anyone. I was in touch with some guys and they kept providing me with articles that didnt match that they said proved their ideas but they were completely different. Only now am I seeing through their scams.
If you go full circle you're back to where you started...
And, based on best current projections, I'm fairly confident that I never will.
Scam artists survive because there is one born every minute.
Also, if you want a counterexample, 419 fraudsters don't make money by appearing honourable, they make money by appealing to people's greed.
Why would anyone sell a real map of a lost gold mine, rather than just using it themselves?
Surely, you mean 'incorrectly' unless you're claiming that skeptics are actually liars who believe that some free energy systems *do* work?
No, it's not OK.
Not without extraordinarily good proof that a device exists.
Proof sufficient to propel device+inventor out of the Free Energy crowd into the scientific mainstream and global media adulation.
By which point I will have heard of them, and won't have to worry if they're actually for real.
Until such time, I'll work on the current best estimate of 'scam or delusion'.
Free energy is impossible. Like i said there is no real free energy scientists. These guys are violating the basic laws of physics without providing any proof whatsoever to prove their point. Take Keshe for instance. He claims to have discovered new laws of physics but when asked for proof he says he dosent need to provide proof. He says universities have replicated his design but he dosent say which universities. Supposedly there is a media blackout on his technology by the scientists. It is all BS just like all the other free energy antigravity guys. They are all liars out to get money or attention. Thats all.
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