Are we losing?

[Admin]

There's always a great deal of confusion regarding the difference between 'positive thinking' and 'superstitious thinking'.

Superstition is: the belief in non-physical cause and effect mediated by unseen forces and properties.

Whereas positive thinking (or a positive attitude) usually involves heightening one's sense of self-efficacy or agency (i.e. our sense of control over being able to manage our actions). Positive thinking is not enough on its own, it needs to lead to higher self efficacy and also to lead to action.


I had a similar discussion with someone once along the same lines (I think it was about Cosmic Ordering or similar). Her argument was that if you want roses in your garden and do nothing you won't get them but if you 'think positive' you'll dig your garden, buy some rose buds and plant them - you'll get your roses!

I then explained that this is not Cosmic Ordering. It's really just a case of (genuine) positive thinking as it's resulted in action that brought about change.

But...

When people think that all you have to do is wish for something (wishing is usually phrased as being 'positive thinking') and your thoughts and desires will make things happen, then this is superstitious thinking.

So we really need to be clear about the difference between real-world, psychologically driven positive thinking (which leads to action) and the sort of wish fulfilment type of 'positive thinking' that is merely superstitious.

So thoughts, wishes, intentions, etc., have no impact on reality whatsoever (and certainly none on things that are not real - such as demonic possession).

If someone believes something to be true (even though it isn't) it doesn't become true or 'true for them'; it merely results in that person having a false belief.

So yes, a parent could believe that their child has psychic powers and interpret their child's behaviour as indicative of psychic power, but that doesn't make the child psychic - it just means the parent has a false belief that their child is psychic.

[Rose]

So thoughts, wishes, intentions, etc., have no impact on reality whatsoever (and certainly none on things that are not real - such as demonic possession).

If someone believes something to be true (even though it isn't) it doesn't become true or 'true for them'; it merely results in that person having a false belief.

Thoughts, wishes, intentions, and beliefs, false or not, can and do affect the person and the people around them. Isn't this what we are saying about psychics and their beliefs?

[Pebble]

Thoughts, wishes, intentions, and beliefs, false or not, can and do affect the person and the people around them. Isn't this what we are saying about psychics and their beliefs?

The impact of individuals on those around them is influenced by many things. Their charisma, leadership qualities, persuasiveness etc. So the warped beliefs of an isolated nut job will rarely influence others - perhaps only during times of mass hysteria, those of a central community figure have much more impact.
So perhaps it is the industry and personal qualities that create the influence, the beliefs simply happen to be what is 'aped' by others.

[Admin]

Thoughts, wishes, intentions, and beliefs, false or not, can and do affect the person and the people around them.

That's what I said!

Isn't this what we are saying about psychics and their beliefs?

I really don't know what your argument is here.

If someone believes they are psychic then of course it affects them and people around them because they'll alter their behaviour according to their beliefs.

But it doesn't mean they're psychic. They just falsely believe they are.

[Rose]

So thoughts, wishes, intentions, etc., have no impact on reality whatsoever (and certainly none on things that are not real - such as demonic possession).

I took this to mean that "thoughts, wishes, intentions, etc.," had no effect on reality whatsoever, meaning also not on other people. If I misunderstood I apologise. I'm not arguing with anything anyone says here. I'm simply trying to gain more understanding.

[Admin]

I took this to mean that "thoughts, wishes, intentions, etc.," had no effect on reality whatsoever, meaning also not on other people.

That's correct. If you want something to be true, or wish for it to be true, etc., then your thoughts or desires will not make it happen.

However, if you want something to be true or want it to happen and it is actually achievable, then you can make it happen if, and only if, you act.

If you think another person is an idiot, your thoughts will have no effect on them whatsoever.

If you think your child is an idiot and you constantly tell them so (i.e. you act upon your thoughts) then you can affect them.

If you think your child is psychic and you tell them so (i.e. you act upon your thoughts) then this will affect the child - but it won't make them psychic (because psychic ability isn't reality, therefore unachievable).

Think of it like this:

Thought > Action > Affect

For a thought to affect the world in some achievable way it must be acted upon. There's no direct link between thought and affect.

[Rose]

If you think another person is an idiot, your thoughts will have no effect on them whatsoever.

I understand. Thinking them an idiot, no effect. Telling them they are an idiot, effect. Thinking a child is possessed, no effect. Telling the child they are processed, effect - and probably some serious therapy in their future.

[Viking]

And is the decision as to whether something is achievable, or not, infallible?

[Admin]

And is the decision as to whether something is achievable, or not, infallible?

Only if I make it.

[Viking]

Naturally, John. That goes without saying.