Having had a look (http://www.hydrochargeme.com/) I am totally unconvinced of the validity of this product.
The claims seem to be 'too good to be true', the explanation is very woolly and non-scientific, and the only hint of supporting evidence is anecdotal. I think it might be worth looking at the characteristics of pseudoscience when evaluating hydrocharger's claims.
It has already been pointed out on this thread about the problem regarding the thermodynamics of this system and energy gain. In a nutshell, it requires more energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen in the first place than you can get back by burning the hydrogen in the oxygen you've produced - i.e. there will always be a net energy loss in a system like this.
OK, the hydrocharger might work in a different way (affecting droplet size or whatever) and improve the efficiency of the engine. However, if this is true then it should be easy to prove.
I'd like to see results of proper, independent tests on fuel economy and exhaust emissions on this product.
Until we see such evidence, I too call 'bullshit' on this one.
.
Thanks John, I could not agree more!Originally Posted by John Jackson
However, one point... The alternative theories on how it works, improved efficiency and so on, confuse the engine's efficiency (something like 40%, with the other 60% going to heat and noise) with the ratio of fuel burned (something like 99.5%, the other 0.5% passing out the exhust).
HHO pedallers claim that the engine is only 40% efficient and that their HHO unit helps the fuel burn more efficiently. They claim anything from 5% to 100% improvements in mileage but never explain where this extra energy comes from, they just imply it comes from the engine's inbuilt inefficiency and deliberately muddle percent-energy-efficiency with percent-of-fuel-burned.
Of course this extra energy does not exist.
And another thing...... Any improvement in mileage bigger than about 20% ought to be easy to show (even outside of a lab)... but smaller than 20% falls right into the margin of this experiment's error, wishful thinking, changed behaviour of the driver, over inflated tires, traffic...
Last edited by Queequeg; 21st November 2009 at 11:58 AM.
Re: Hydrocharger,
In reply to all the posts regarding Hydrogen as a fuel supplement
I write this with some authority on both the subject and any persons or companies that may be mentioned.
Hydrocharger Ltd, formerly Watermotive Ltd,formerly Water4gasUKLtd, formerly Tranztec UK etc etc are not to be trusted at all.They have now folded both Water4gasUkLtd and Watermotive Ltd as they are being pursued through the courts.They have CCJ judgments against both companies.They have folded these companies in an attempt to avoid reimbursing the dissatisfied customers they owe money to.
The promise of a ''money back'' guarantee is just a way of making potential customers feel safe and is not worth the paper it is written on.They figure that only a very small percentage of dissatisfied customers could or would take legal action to recover their money.I am currently taking action against them and they have even threatened me with legal action if i attempt to contact any of their customers to obtain feedback on their dealings with any of the companies run by them (Neil and Samantha Prendergast).What are they trying to hide begs the question?
In theory and,to some extent,in practice the concept holds water.Trouble is it was first run on good old American Gas Guzzlers,(cant find any evidence that it was successful on Diesels) they do not have the sophisticated ECU`s on the older cars that we now find on Euro 2,3,4,5 Spec vehicles in the EU.Due the the relentless pursuit of cleaner, more efficient engines the on board monitoring has become more and more sophisticated.This leads to the basic problem you encounter when you introduce Hydrogen into the system,it can`t read what is going on to put it simply.On trials i have been involved in covering vehicles from a Renault Cleo right through to a 12 litre Scania it produces the same result,the vehicles involved all used more fuel with Hydrogen in their systems than they did running without.We have come to the conclusion that firstly there is the need to develop a production system that is both stable in use and cost effective to maintain,secondly a secondary control over the ECU is required to overcome the problems encountered when trying to get any specific vehicle to accept the introduction of Hydrogen.
Regarding companies that are promoting their products,why don`t we see a massive amount of promotion in the media,surely if the product was ready for the mass market someone would be out there trying to clean up big time!(I have omitted to name any companies for legal reasons) Several of the companies i have been involved with to date would jump at the chance of installing a system on their fleets, once proven, as the potential savings to them are in the £MILLIONS per annum.
For anyone out there who is thinking of purchasing a system, just make sure you ask all the right questions before you get to involved as you could end up out of pocket and disillusioned before you know it.My main WARNING for anyone about to put their toes in the water is do not get involved with the company known as Hydrchargeme.com as you will only regret your actions.If i can help anyone in any way regarding the above mentioned companies then please make it known.Regards Hydroman
Last edited by Hydroman; 5th December 2009 at 03:51 AM.
I was approached by a friend a while ago who's got a mate that had purchased a 'hydrostar' kit. As a relatively accomplished electronics service engineer I decided to take a look at the kit. It comprises a couple of 555's and a dividebyN counter driving a couple of mosfets. This configuration provides the P.W.M. waveform that is used to DECEIVE the 'unknowing' out there into thinking there is some form of 'gain' being carried out. You are so obviously naive in the statements (that I wont even refer to!) regarding thermodynamics laws that you are doing a better job at humiliating yourself that I can could probably achieve by quizzing your technical knowledge any further. It is a real shame there are individuals out there duping those who 'believe'. Entropy is not about to change.
That's a real blast from the past - takes me back to when I was a teenager.
Though I still do electronics as something between a paying hobby and a minor business, I'd pretty much consigned discrete logic chips to the 'museum' area of my mind, though maybe they have some kind of edge over MCUs when it comes to electrically noisy environments.
@Tolman!, Seasons greetings!!! Yes, the 4000 series still has its applications! Low(ish) current and still widely used today! Cmos logic can be 'glitched' by background noise as well but not quite as susceptible as mcu's and their clock source. CMOS will just self destruct! Mcu's will lose the whole process, have to reboot and refer to what it dumped into cmos as the WDT reset!, (but prob wont self destruct!) Regarding generating a pwm waveform, it would certainly be easier to write a few lines of code and program a PIC, (or similar) but I reckon that would be beyond the capabilities of the scammers out there! Not to mention a few quid more!!!
What is this language it which you speak?
skb
NelMac,
True, but though the coding might be tricky for a first-timer, there are some pretty cheap MCUs out there.
The PIC I use most of (albeit only in one product) is only ~£1/unit even in small quantities, and would not only open the way to a few nice flashing LEDs, but even to that most convenient of features for the knowing scammer - timer-based planned obsolescence.
Fault light come on? - that'll be because your warranty recently expired, er - I mean your superfilter cartridge needs replacing.
@SKbunks, apologies for getting a bit tech here ! (If thats what you refer to by the 'What language is this you speak'!).....@Tolman, yep, the coding would probably scare em off from using a micro! (I know mcu's are cheap these days)!...lol...
No probs, it was just a weak attempt at humour@SKbunks, apologies for getting a bit tech here ! (If thats what you refer to by the 'What language is this you speak'!).....@Tolman, yep, the coding would probably scare em off from using a micro! (I know mcu's are cheap these days)!...lol...
skb
That is my job.No probs, it was just a weak attempt at humour
skb
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