"Evidence Check: Homeopathy" in UK parliament

[Marmite_Man]

Here's Dr. Fisher being questioned about succussion.



Now, I'm no expert, but don't homeopaths claim that the higher the dilution, the more potent the remedy? How can that be reconciled with Dr. Fisher's claim that homeopathic water is highly purified and distilled before the active content is added and then further diluted? Surely the water's memory of "poo", to quote Dr. Harris, would be the most active? Or does distilling water get rid of its memory and alter its "structural effects", which have been "looked at"?

I call bullshit.

It has two principles

1) Like cures like (although i'm guessing if you break your leg they don't break your other one to help that, I might be wrong)

2) Less is more, the dilution is equivalent to taking a drop of the active ingredient, dropping it into a swimming pool, then take a drop of the resulting solution and put it in the ocean, take a drop of that and you have your "cure" the odds of there being even one molecule of the active ingredient in the cure are pretty long.

One day I will have this debate with my homeopath auntie

[asthmatic camel]

Marmite_Man, the report's due to be published on Monday. Here's hoping it gives you some ammunition!

[skbuncks]

It has two three principles

1) Like cures like (although i'm guessing if you break your leg they don't break your other one to help that, I might be wrong)

2) Less is more, the dilution is equivalent to taking a drop of the active ingredient, dropping it into a swimming pool, then take a drop of the resulting solution and put it in the ocean, take a drop of that and you have your "cure" the odds of there being even one molecule of the active ingredient in the cure are pretty long.

3) The properties of the mother tincture are maintained at each dilution through a process known as succusion. In this process the diluted solution is vigorously shaken and then banged ten (?) times against a solid object (I think Hahnemann used a bible). In this manner remedies become 'potentised'.
It is this process of potentisation which conveys the power of the original remedy down through the dilutions.
It follows that water will not remember all the other shit that's been in it in absence of this potentising process. Claims from the anti-homoeopathy brigade that remedies should also contain super potent excrement thus merely serve to demonstrate the ignorance of the claimant.

One day I will have this debate with my homeopath auntie

There, fixed that for you

skb

[asthmatic camel]

I still fail to understand why distilling water should remove any "memory" it contains, as Dr. Fisher claims. Surely, boiling the stuff is about the most vigorous shaking it could possibly get, no?

[Pebble]

I still fail to understand why distilling water should remove any "memory" it contains, as Dr. Fisher claims. Surely, boiling the stuff is about the most vigorous shaking it could possibly get, no?

You need to stop thinking about this problem logically and immerse yourself in the magic mode.

Heat - increases the energy, hence moves the electrons to a more agitated state, this clears their memory and on cooling they return to thier normal energy level with completely random (quantum!!!) orientation.

When the target substance is added, the intermolecular forces of said substance is like a quantum signature, and causes very slight realignment of the electrons on the water molecules in response. Once a water molecule has been so altered, it can force other water molecules to realign appropriately - a bit like DNA each molecule creating a mirror image of its alignment, thus roughly half the molecules will be aligned postively and half negatively.

As long as you don't heat the water it will retain this alignment or memory. The vigour of the shaking ensures that all molecules within the water have been appropriately exposed and the banging sets the memory. Dilution to extincition is essential, since the original 'toxin' causes the symptom, and you don't want any of that in your treatment, simply the 'educated' water molecules.

Because the water is harmless, there are no side effects, but the slght molecular alignment allows these molecules to recognise and indeed be attracted to molecules with matching alignments in the body, and here is the really clever bit having found those disease causing molecules they pacify them.

[chaggle]

You need to stop thinking about this problem logically and immerse yourself in the magic mode.

Heat - increases the energy, hence moves the electrons to a more agitated state, this clears their memory and on cooling they return to thier normal energy level with completely random (quantum!!!) orientation.

When the target substance is added, the intermolecular forces of said substance is like a quantum signature, and causes very slight realignment of the electrons on the water molecules in response. Once a water molecule has been so altered, it can force other water molecules to realign appropriately - a bit like DNA each molecule creating a mirror image of its alignment, thus roughly half the molecules will be aligned postively and half negatively.

As long as you don't heat the water it will retain this alignment or memory. The vigour of the shaking ensures that all molecules within the water have been appropriately exposed and the banging sets the memory. Dilution to extincition is essential, since the original 'toxin' causes the symptom, and you don't want any of that in your treatment, simply the 'educated' water molecules.

Because the water is harmless, there are no side effects, but the slght molecular alignment allows these molecules to recognise and indeed be attracted to molecules with matching alignments in the body, and here is the really clever bit having found those disease causing molecules they pacify them.

Brilliant!

You just missed the bit where the water molecules tell the sugar molecules.....

[Floppit]

Homeopathic treatments are usually made by diluting a substance so much there are no molecules of the original ingredient left. In November the chief pharmacist at Boots, Paul Bennett, told the inquiry he had no evidence that homeopathy works. At the weekend, hundreds of people took part in a "mass overdose" of homeopathic pills outside branches of Boots to protest against the company selling the products.

I think my position is changing re the effectiveness of the protest - as it's reported here it underlines the hypocrisy well and sort of punctuates the debate. I'll happily admit I didn't consider it's impact on MPs, it's easy to forget they are people who just scan newspapers too.

[chaggle]

The Telegraph is reporting thus:

Homoeopathy should not be funded on the NHS, says report by MPs

Homoeopathic medicines should not be allowed to make claims they cannot justify and should not be paid for by the taxpayer, MPs will recommend.

A report from the Commons science and technology committee is expected to criticise the use of NHS resources to fund the remedies based on the current evidence for them.
The committee will also argue that medicines should not be allowed to use phrases like "used to treat" in their marketing, as consumers might think there is clinical evidence that they work.

[Marmite_Man]

There, fixed that for you

skb

Thanks for that.

A new low :/ http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/

[Bob Lloyd]

One of the really strong points of the report just published is that it explains in considerable detail why placebos shouldn't be provided as if they were treatments, and also why anecdotal evidence doesn't count as evidence.

There was one section in which efficacy was contrasted with effectiveness, efficacy being the provable treatment under ideal conditions, for example in the lab, and effectiveness being whether or not it could be used in the real world, side effects and all. This was used to explain why even if homeopathic medicine could claim effectiveness in the sense that people said they felt better, it still shouldn't be given to patients because it has no efficacy and is therefore dishonest and unethical.

The committee rightly took the view that effectiveness is predicated on proven efficacy because otherwise you don't have a real treatment at all. They also clearly explained, against the claims of the homeopaths, that randomised controlled trials are precisely the best way to test the efficacy of homeopathy.

So many people fail to understand these points, including many MPs and policy makers, that it is easy for them to be swayed by the woo merchants. And the involvement of the Prince of Wales' woo factory on qualifications and regulatory bodies doesn't help any either.

Of course, the report will almost certainly be buried because to act on it would create a bit of a controversy in the run-up to an election. And nothing is allowed to get in the way of electioneering, especially not something like political principles, scientific facts, and ethics.

[chaggle]

43 MP's have signed an Early Day Motion

Tredinnick, David
That this House expresses concern at the conclusions of the Science and Technology Committee's Report, Evidence Check on Homeopathy; notes that the Committee took only oral evidence from a limited number of witnesses, including known critics of homeopathy Tracy Brown, the Managing Director of Sense About Science, and journalist Dr Ben Goldacre, who have no expertise in the subject; believes that evidence should have been heard from primary care trusts that commission homeopathy, doctors who use it in a primary care setting, and other relevant organisations, such as the Society of Homeopaths, to provide balance; observes that the Committee did not consider evidence from abroad from countries such as France and Germany, where provision of homeopathy is far more widespread than in the UK, or from India, where it is part of the health service; regrets that the Committee ignored the 74 randomised controlled trials comparing homeopathy with placebo, of which 63 showed homeopathic treatments were effective, and that the Committee recommends no further research; further notes that 206 hon. Members signed Early Day Motion No. 1240 in support of NHS homeopathic hospitals in Session 2006-07; and calls on the Government to maintain its policy of allowing decision-making on individual clinical interventions, including homeopathy, to remain in the hands of local NHS service providers and practitioners who are best placed to know their community's needs.

Signatures( 43)


Tredinnick, David
Simpson, Alan
Russell, Bob
Pound, Stephen
Dismore, Andrew
Simpson, David
McDonnell, John
Campbell, Gregory
Cohen, Harry
Corbyn, Jeremy
Drew, David
Gray, James
Hancock, Mike
Hermon, Lady
Key, Robert
Hemming, John
Bone, Peter
Davies, Dai
Mates, Michael
Dodds, Nigel
Wyatt, Derek
Sarwar, Mohammad
Hamilton, Fabian
Winterton, Nicholas
Davies, Philip
Leigh, Edward
Barlow, Celia
Ellwood, Tobias
Leech, John
Main, Anne
Robinson, Peter
McCrea, Dr William
Paisley, Ian
Brady, Graham
Cook, Frank
Hall, Patrick
Binley, Brian
Pugh, John
Davey, Edward
Weir, Mike
Sharma, Virendra Kumar
Abbott, Diane
Williams, Mark

[asthmatic camel]

According to my calculations, that's 6.66% of MPs. Spooky!

[Pebble]

43 MP's have signed an Early Day Motion

So now you know who not to vote for!

[Matt]

So now you know who not to vote for!

Indeed

Tredinnick, David -- Conservative
Simpson, Alan -- Conservative
Russell, Bob -- Conservative
Pound, Stephen -- Conservative
Dismore, Andrew -- Conservative
Simpson, David -- Conservative
McDonnell, John -- Conservative
Campbell, Gregory -- Conservative
Cohen, Harry -- Conservative
Corbyn, Jeremy -- Conservative
Drew, David -- Conservative
Gray, James -- Conservative
Hancock, Mike -- Conservative
Hermon, Lady -- Conservative
Key, Robert -- Conservative
Hemming, John -- Conservative
Bone, Peter -- Conservative
Davies, Dai -- Conservative
Mates, Michael -- Conservative
Dodds, Nigel -- Conservative
Wyatt, Derek -- Conservative
Sarwar, Mohammad -- Conservative
Hamilton, Fabian -- Conservative
Winterton, Nicholas -- Conservative
Davies, Philip -- Conservative
Leigh, Edward -- Conservative
Barlow, Celia -- Conservative
Ellwood, Tobias -- Conservative
Leech, John -- Conservative
Main, Anne -- Conservative
Robinson, Peter -- Conservative
McCrea, Dr William -- Conservative
Paisley, Ian -- Conservative
Brady, Graham -- Conservative
Cook, Frank -- Conservative
Hall, Patrick -- Conservative
Binley, Brian -- Conservative
Pugh, John -- Conservative
Davey, Edward -- Conservative
Weir, Mike -- Conservative
Sharma, Virendra Kumar -- Conservative
Abbott, Diane -- Labour
Williams, Mark -- Conservative

[chaggle]

Huh? Where'd that come from? This is directly off the early day motion...

Signatures( 45)

Status


Conservative Party
Binley, Brian
Bone, Peter
Brady, Graham
Davies, Philip
Ellwood, Tobias
Gray, James
Horam, John
Key, Robert
Leigh, Edward
Main, Anne
Mates, Michael
Tredinnick, David
Widdecombe, Ann
Winterton, Nicholas
Open: 14 Closed: 0

Democratic Unionist Party
Campbell, Gregory
Dodds, Nigel
McCrea, Dr William
Paisley, Ian
Robinson, Peter
Simpson, David
Open: 6 Closed: 0

INDEPENDENT
Davies, Dai
Open: 1 Closed: 0

Labour Party
Abbott, Diane
Barlow, Celia
Cohen, Harry
Cook, Frank
Corbyn, Jeremy
Dismore, Andrew
Drew, David
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Fabian
McDonnell, John
Pound, Stephen
Sarwar, Mohammad
Sharma, Virendra Kumar
Simpson, Alan
Wyatt, Derek
Open: 15 Closed: 0

Liberal Democrats
Davey, Edward
Hancock, Mike
Hemming, John
Leech, John
Pugh, John
Russell, Bob
Williams, Mark
Open: 7 Closed: 0

Scottish National Party
Weir, Mike
Open: 1 Closed: 0

Ulster Unionist Party
Hermon, Lady
Open: 1 Closed: 0