Non conformity, doing your own thing.

[Floppit]

Do you value non conformity? I don't mean the kind that requires a uniform, dreads, tie dye etc. etc.

My take on it is to save it for when it matters, I don't do much to make a statement but if something really counts I won't bend to pressure for pressures sake.

It seems to me that wanting to apply reason inevitably results in swimming against the tide and like it or not that can have a social cost. I'm interested in other people's experiences of not conforming - I reckon maybe it's something we all probably juggle more than most folk.

[Trinoc]

Do you value non conformity?

Of course ... all the people I know value it, so why would I want to be left out?

(But seriously ... yes.)

[Graham Lappin]

Do you value non conformity.

Absolutely live by it. I am a dyed in the wool non-conformist and very proud of it. There is nothing at all wrong with people thinking you are a bit weird and in fact, I revel in it.

So what about a few examples:

I'll start by sating that I will not conform to Christmas. I hate Christmas and I will always hate it. The main reason is that everyone is telling me (almost ordering me) to have a good time. It's expected and so I will not conform.

The gas and electricity company try to charge me extra for not paying by direct debit. Why the hell should I hand over my bank account to these people. if I have a dispute with a payment, then I want to be in control, not them. I pay by electronic transfer over the internet and therefore they incur no administrative costs, that they might if I paid by cheque. I therefore deduct the additional charge they make for not paying by direct debit and to hell with them. so far I have actually got away with this.

Thinking about it, is this non-conformity or just being stroppy?

I'll be interested in other examples and then all us non-conformists can copy each other (some irony in that somewhere)

[seren]

Heh, totally dumb one this. For a long time- years- I refused to dye my hair. Simply because I looked around and saw that almost every single woman had dyed hair (and wore make up. I don't bother with that very often either). It made me suddenly depressed, like we've all swallowed this idea that we are not good enough as we are, down to and including the colour of our hair.

I don't know if that falls into the "dreads and tie dye" school of non-conformism though.

Then, you know, I find I'm not conforming even when I hadn't planned it that way. In my late twenties I started getting immense pressure from other women to get married. The exhortations to breed are still there. I didn't realise it was like that, that by being over 30, unmarried and childless I am considered something of a freak. I thought we'd got past that. Well, sod 'em. Not interested in marriage, can live without kids. I don't think that's abnormal, but if it is, GOOD.

[Pebble]

It seems to me that wanting to apply reason inevitably results in swimming against the tide and like it or not that can have a social cost. I'm interested in other people's experiences of not conforming - I reckon maybe it's something we all probably juggle more than most folk.

Questioning everything can never be the easy option. I like to think of it as permanent adolescence. The problem I arrive at is that adolescents are regarded as non-conformist by their parents generation and by authority, but not by their peers - so are we simply conforming to a skeptic norm?

[Trinoc]

Skeptics are to science what anarchists are to politics. Everyone should march under their own flag, and in whatever direction they choose. Common purpose only happens when people genuinely agree rationally about something, and ends when they disagree (even if we are all still friends). There can be no single skeptics' movement.

[chaggle]

Do you value non conformity? I don't mean the kind that requires a uniform, dreads, tie dye etc. etc.

The type of non conformity that requires a uniform? Must be a fairly conformist type of non conformity???

[Floppit]

The type of non conformity that requires a uniform? Must be a fairly conformist type of non conformity???

That was my point ...didn't think it needed spelling out!

I think my own easiest example to retell is my lack of a pushchair, I didn't use a pram either. I wanted to carry munchkin because I like my freedom to move, I like being an ATV, I don't like being stuck waiting 5 centuries (no exaggeration - honest!) for people to move so I could squeeze a pram through. I did a bit of my own research, checked with my midwife and decided to use pouches, carriers and slings instead of wheeled objects. That made me a little odd but it turned out there was a whole babywearing community (joy!), briefly I took a look see and damn it was scary! So as I didn't buy into amber teething necklaces or booby feeding on demand till your kid is 6, or home schooling, or god I sort of stopped on my own. I managed to argue with the only other babywearer I knew over advice she was giving to a 19 yr old Mum - bloody stupid advice! The funny thing is it turned out she was a closet pusher which I found SO funny.

My point is that even if somebody is my only ally over one issue it won't change what I think about a different issue. That's the bit that I think feeds conformist thinking, becoming less critical of people that are similar to ourselves.

The problem I arrive at is that adolescents are regarded as non-conformist by their parents generation and by authority, but not by their peers - so are we simply conforming to a skeptic norm?

If there stopped being a healthy diversity in subject matter and opinion, if some people were never argued with and others always disputed, or if we start wearing 'skeptic' tee shirts - then YIKES!!!! But, as it is I don't think we're being sucked into the drain.

[newatheist]

I used to be a non conformist, but after a little while of social exclusion I was soon set straight.

I still value non conformity but I try my best to minimise it because in the end all it does is make my own life worse.

[DrS]

I know what you mean about making life worse, but I don't really define it as such because I find it worse to join in. I find my own non-conformity is a part of my make-up, rather than a choice, and know that many consider me odd as a result. I would prefer to accept this, and the seemingly necessary isolation, rather than try to be something I'm not.

[Mulder]

I value non conformity, even though I don't know anyone who is actually non conformist (only a few people who claim they are).

I come into contact with many people who believe in things for which there is little objective evidence. They often revel in being 'misunderstood' by other people. They would no doubt regard themselves as non conformist. However, the fact that their beliefs are highly derivative rather underrmines that view. How many believers do you need to have before something becomes the conformist view? Does it matter if it supported by evidence or not?

[Pebble]

Skeptics are to science what anarchists are to politics. Everyone should march under their own flag, and in whatever direction they choose. Common purpose only happens when people genuinely agree rationally about something, and ends when they disagree (even if we are all still friends). There can be no single skeptics' movement.

Sounds strangely like a description of any british political party (all you need to do is delete the owrd rationally), the early years of new labour being an obvious exception.

[Floppit]

I value non conformity, even though I don't know anyone who is actually non conformist (only a few people who claim they are).

I think that's the difference between seeing it as a behaviour rather than an identity - something done on occasion rather than something a person becomes.

Edit- hell, it's interesting looking back at whether others see it as an identity or behaviour!

[Nukapai]

I don't conform to the idea of skeptics' non-conformity.

Seriously though: I think the question is too categoric. I'm finding it hard to think of many people who could be called categorically one way or the other; there are nuances and shades in the everyday lives, private thoughts and big themes of everyone's existence.

Also depends hugely on the culture you're immersed in at the time. Where you come from and where you now find yourself. People may think of me as non-conformist over here, but that's only because my Finnishness translates that way in the (essentially still rather) chauvinistic, conservative class-society over here. In Finland (where it's homogenous, left-leaning, matriarchal, Lutheran instead) it wouldn't be odd for the woman to be career-oriented, main breadwinner; whatever.

On the other hand, in Finland, I didn't entirely conform because I like to use bright colours and cosmetics to express myself; they're like portable paintings. I wanted to do things that didn't go with the available lifestyle options. I did a lot of stuff that stood out as "not quite the norm".

And as a woman, I don't necessarily conform - like science, technology and sci-fi, gaming and big, oily machines, but also the pretty-pretty things, arty things and clothes. As a culture-vulture I don't conform because I'm might be devouring the latest Young Adult book, graphic novel or an online comic, happy to pick up a classic or a chemistry book the next day. Same with music taste; all of these things that are somehow externally and internally supposed to categorise or even define us. I think that's all pretty limiting. The whole question of "conforming" assumes that there are lines that one musn't colour over.

But I feel as though the human instinct is to find some group in which we belong. So whatever we tell ourselves to make like we're really different, we have really only just defined our own "gang" in which we belong to. There might even be other members. I think we need that security of self-defined identity. For many there are political and moral shades to their choices or boycotts; that's understandable and often admirable. But I think it's still part of the same bigger framework of identity and our need for security.

[Mulder]

I think that's the difference between seeing it as a behaviour rather than an identity - something done on occasion rather than something a person becomes.!

I understand the concept of non-conformist behaviour but what do you mean by identity? Is that someone who thinks differently to others but may or may not choose to act on it?

I notice most people here seem to think non conformity is a good thing. I wonder if this a media thing? Adverts often play on the idea that it is discerning individuals who buy their products. The heros of many dramas are non conformist. Imagine trying to sell a TV station the idea of a cop show where all the characters are perfectly ordinary!