British Chiropractic Association v Simon Singh

[Blue Wode]

The General Chiropractic Council has just released this statement:
http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/page_fil...with_logo).pdf

[Blue Wode]

Moving the goalposts (Part One)
http://www.zenosblog.com/2009/06/moving-goalposts-part-one.html

[Trinoc]

Something just occurred to my slow brain while reading through the Randi forum thread on this subject ...

The BCA is an organisation, not a private individual. How can an organisation be said to have intentions, dishonest or otherwise? It is not a conscious entity. Individual members may have intentions, but an organisation only has actions.

Surely this implies that Eady's interpretation of the article as accusing the BCA of deliberate dishonesty is fundamentally meaningless.

[Jack of Kent]

Something just occurred to my slow brain while reading through the Randi forum thread on this subject ...

The BCA is an organisation, not a private individual. How can an organisation be said to have intentions, dishonest or otherwise? It is not a conscious entity. Individual members may have intentions, but an organisation only has actions.

Surely this implies that Eady's interpretation of the article as accusing the BCA of deliberate dishonesty is fundamentally meaningless.

A company can be dishonest and indeed can be prosecuted for theft; it can also be prosecuted for manslaughter, which also requires a "state of mind".

In libel law, Tesco could bring a libel case against the Guardian for its tax affairs, just as BCA are bringing a case against Singh.

The law in these cases treats a company just as a natural person.

I think this is wrong.

But you are right, Trinoc, in your suggestion that it is far harder to evidence such an intention.

[Blue Wode]

Just released - BCA statement on evidence:
http://www.chiropractic-uk.co.uk/gfx...t%20170609.pdf

[Trinoc]

But you are right, Trinoc, in your suggestion that it is far harder to evidence such an intention.

So, what exactly would the BCA have to be shown to have done in order for Eady and friends to accept that they had been proved to have dishonest intent?

If there are no conceivable facts which could establish such an intent, then surely Eady has created a case that can only ever possibly be settled one way. Surely the fact the a judge has, literally, prejudged the issue should be adequate grounds for appeal.

[davidrodway]

Re. the latest chiro press release referred to in the last post but one - i see ref 17 (I think it was) referred to OSTEOPATHIC research by CLive Standen. Apart from any other faults it may have, I think , being fair to them, that even the authors would agree that one major fault was that the parents (probably unavoidably) were in the room with the children during ttt - hence possible placebo from effect on parent.

If the other references are shown to be also faulty, where does that leave the case? - the chiros could argue that at the time they thought them valid and published in good faith. That rather implies that they were innocent but deluded fools - they win the case against SIngh but only because they were stupid but honest. Hardly covers them in glory, altho such finer points may be lost on the public.

[tolman]

If the other references are shown to be also faulty, where does that leave the case? - the chiros could argue that at the time they thought them valid and published in good faith. That rather implies that they were innocent but deluded fools - they win the case against SIngh but only because they were stupid but honest. Hardly covers them in glory, altho such finer points may be lost on the public.

Rather than just innocent, wouldn't it rather show that they were basically incompetent/ignorant when it came to assessing evidence for the efficacy of treatments they sell, despite claiming to be medical professionals?

Also, if they were going tro claim incompetence or ignorance as a defence, where does that leave their claims about the efficacy of any other treatments they sell?
Wouldn't an honest trader have to really pull right back to a position of security, where they could show real evidence of whcih treatements did work?

[Blue Wode]

Here's a link to the full text of ref.2 [Klougart N, Nilsson N and Jacobsen J (1989) Infantile Colic Treated by Chiropractors: A Prospective Study of 316 Cases, J Manip Physiol Ther, 12:281-288] in the 'evidence' section of the BCA's most recent statement:
http://www.dcscience.net/Klougart%20...JMPT_colic.pdf

Jack of Kent's take on the statement is here:
http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/...rd-update.html

And with regard to the GCC, this is the latest from Zeno:
http://www.zenosblog.com/2009/06/mov...-part-two.html

[Trinoc]

Here's a link to the full text of ref.2 [Klougart N, Nilsson N and Jacobsen J (1989) Infantile Colic Treated by Chiropractors: A Prospective Study of 316 Cases, J Manip Physiol Ther, 12:281-288] in the 'evidence' section of the BCA's most recent statement:
http://www.dcscience.net/Klougart%20...JMPT_colic.pdf

So, no control and no blinding then?

[Blue Wode]

So, no control and no blinding then?

It would seem so.

And here's a new twist.

From lecanardnoir at Twitter (http://twitter.com/lecanardnoir):

In publishing their 'plethora' the BCA may be in breach of the GCC code of practice. http://bit.ly/2Zd7h

Also, here's David Colquhoun on the BCA's 'plethora' of evidence:
http://www.dcscience.net/?p=1775

[Blue Wode]

Edzard Ernst responds to the BCA Vice President's rebuttal of recent criticisms of chiropractors:
http://trunc.it/h7kr
(Rregistration at Pulse is free and anybody can leave a comment.)

[Blue Wode]

Another critical review of the BCA's 'plethora' of evidence:

Ignorance and Dishonesty: A Review of The BCA's Evidence for Chiropractic
http://www.layscience.net/node/598

[Blue Wode]

More blogging.

Examining the BCA's 'plethora' of evidence
http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/200...a-of-evidence/

BCA Statement Baffles Blogger
http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2009/06/...ffles-blogger/

The BCA have no evidence that chiropractic can help with ear infections
http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2009/...ar-infections/

[Trinoc]

Copy and pasteable version of the BCA release here ...

http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/wp-...-Statement.pdf