Detect the ADE 651 Detection Equipment

[ernst.filibert]

Hi Again Ernst and welcome to the planet earth, as you will know I already tackled you and your ridiculous support of the ADE on the Randi site.
The ADE, like all the other 'magic wands' is a scam, prove us wrong and take the MDC or go back to whichever planet you came from.

Yeah we meet again. And as already told you Techowiz I don’t support anything. All that I do is trying to look from another direction to ADE and to try to give it a chance to save human lives.
The science is evolving and from my point of view it is possible to detect different substance with electromagnetic attraction.
Maybe for some this will look like a magic but remember Galileo Galilei was accused of heresy and there are hundreds of examples like this in human history.

[tolman]

All that I do is trying to look from another direction to ADE and to try to give it a chance to save human lives.

No.

If that was honestly your motivation, then unless you were incredibly stupid, you'd be clamouring for all the various supplier of claimed explosives detectors to be subjecting themselves to the most public and rigorous demonstrations possible, in the knowledge that a success under such conditions would guarantee maximum usage of functional devices, and the abandonment of any bogus ones.

If someone claims to be making any strange device (remote explosives detection, free energy, etc) which they're keen to sell, but which they're not clamouring to have rigorously and publicly tested, then the chances are that they're just a fraud.

Maybe for some this will look like a magic but remember Galileo Galilei was accused of heresy and there are hundreds of examples like this in human history.

It might look like magic once it was actually shown to work, though clearly if it was shown to work then there would soon be investigations into how it worked and science would advance to make it thoroughly non-magical
However, if someone claimed to have a magic device, then there's not obviously any more reason to believe them than to believe someone who claims to be able to do any other kind of 'magic' unless and until they give a demonstration.

As far as I'm aware, Galileo wasn't trying to sell anything on the basis of vague impressive-sounding statements he made, talking about science he clearly didn't understand.
That's what made him a scientist, rather than a shyster.

[Matt]

Yeah we meet again. And as already told you Techowiz I don’t support anything. All that I do is trying to look from another direction to ADE and to try to give it a chance to save human lives.
The science is evolving and from my point of view it is possible to detect different substance with electromagnetic attraction.
Maybe for some this will look like a magic but remember Galileo Galilei was accused of heresy and there are hundreds of examples like this in human history.

Yes and I'm not an IT manager I just earn my living implementing and supporting computer systems. D'oh!

You may say that you're not supporting these pseudo technologies but that's exactly what you're doing. Lying about it doesn't help your credibility.

[Dubious Dick]

Ernst,. What Matt, Tolman and Techowiz say, with bells on.

Let's simplify this. The only real question is why the various purveyors of these so called detectors have not subjected their devices to appropriate independent testing? That's it! Both McCormick of ADE 651 fame (ATSC), and Vollmar of SNIFFEX Europe renamed the HEDD 1 I think, (Unival), have publicly agreed to such testing at different times. Do we see this happening? No. Have they committed to specific tests in specific places at specific times? No.

Why not? That is the question you must address to them, and stop bothering us.

Oh yeah, of course, I forgot that when the devices have been examined by experts there is no indication whatsoever that they can or should work, whatever fancy sounding mechanisms they claim.

So, go away and ask these questions of them. If you get any useful answers come back and tell us. Otherwise you are urinating into the prevailing air movement (aka p*****g in the wind).

One more thing. If you read the history of this saga, McCormick was in partnership with Gary Bolton of GT200 fame. They worked together on selling a previous incarnation of the product, The Mole. McCormick and an American called Balais maybe thought they could fool the testers at Sandia Labs (perhaps in the way that they had fooled potential punters with set up demonstrations. Or perhaps at the time because McCormick and Balais had been conned by Bolton into believing?) What we know is that Mole singularly failed. Subsequently Bolton split from McCormick and Balais and went on to do the GT200, and McCormick, apparently on his own, to do the ADE 651. Now we know that McComick has made several claims as to the so called working principles behind the ADE 651, and that they are effectively contradictory. He has avoided proper testing, and his kit has no known parts that would even vaguely suggest it can work.

What do we conclude? That even if McCormick originally believed in the Mole, he most certainly knows full well that his ADE 651 was/is a con job. As I have patiently explained to him and Vollmar, successful independent testing would make them extremely wealthy men, way beyond the level of sales we have seen so far. What cheaper, easier way to market their stuff? Still they resist. Odd? Yep. So odd that it cannot make any sense except in the context that they know they are on a hiding to nothing!

On the other hand, perhaps, since you seem persuaded that these things can work, you will be prepared to be the minefield tester. Maybe you should volunteer to Jimmy or Gazza or David or Simon or anyone else involved in this bullshit? Whaddya reckon cowboy?

[techowiz]

Yeah we meet again. And as already told you Techowiz I don’t support anything. All that I do is trying to look from another direction to ADE and to try to give it a chance to save human lives.
The science is evolving and from my point of view it is possible to detect different substance with electromagnetic attraction.
Maybe for some this will look like a magic but remember Galileo Galilei was accused of heresy and there are hundreds of examples like this in human history.

Hi Ernst,
Well how much time are you going to give it to save just one life?
Because at the moment, in the last 12 months alone it has been directly responsible for the loss of over 300 innocent Iraqi lives. That is just lives lost in the SECURE green zone where the ADE is deployed in large numbers, the Iraqi people, like the bombers, are starting to realise that the ADE does not and cannot offer any protection against explosives whatsoever. Like I said the question you should ask the fraudster McCormick, how come the ADE apparently 'detects' a hand grenade in plain view of the operator but cannot detect over half a ton of explosives in a vehicle driven right past the ADE?
Ernst, please also confirm that you are not from the same Romanian firm as another poster on other forums who goes by the avatar of, Comon Tois, the same Romanian firm that supports and promotes the ADE and also the ridiculous AL-6D.

[tolman]

Is there actually a standard Godwin-style name for the "But they laughed at/persecuted/ignored Galileo/Newton/Einstein/Edison!!!" argument, so beloved of scam artists, their shills and gullible supporters, and also countless self-deluded wannabe inventors?

[Matt]

Is there actually a standard Godwin-style name for the "But they laughed at/persecuted/ignored Galileo/Newton/Einstein/Edison!!!" argument, so beloved of scam artists, their shills and gullible supporters, and also countless self-deluded wannabe inventors?

The Galileo gambit

as Carl Sagan put it.

They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

[tolman]

Is there actually a recorded instance of it ever working in an argument(*), or is it really just a verbal analogue of a three-year-old stomping out of a room and just about managing to slam the door (possibly satisfying to the three-year-old, but laughable to anyone else)?

(* with a mentally competent adult audience)

[Matt]

Is there actually a recorded instance of it ever working in an argument(*), or is it really just a verbal analogue of a three-year-old stomping out of a room and just about managing to slam the door (possibly satisfying to the three-year-old, but laughable to anyone else)?

(* with a mentally competent adult audience)

Evangelicals seem to get a certain degree of comfort from their persecution complexes. Some are warned that their attempts at proselytism will be met with hostility and that this is the devil in action. When this happens is evidence of the devil.

[tolman]

But then surely someone being unfailingly polite would just be an instance of one of the silver-tongued devils they're also been warned about, especially if the person seemed to be convincing?

[shimself]

Is there actually a standard Godwin-style name for the "But they laughed at/persecuted/ignored Galileo/Newton/Einstein/Edison!!!" argument, so beloved of scam artists, their shills and gullible supporters, and also countless self-deluded wannabe inventors?

Godwin style name? wassat?

[tolman]

It was a condensed way of saying "A name for the phenomenon, somewhat akin to Godwin's Law"

[Dubious Dick]

Seems that Jim McCormick has managed to get a deal in Mexico. That'll add to his credibility eh! Another corruption free zone where the deal must have gone through on the basis of how marvellous the ade651 is? Or not!

Anyway, seems that the story is slipping away a bit while we are still waiting to hear what the rozzers will charge Jim and Gary Bolton with. Come on boys in blue. Get them locked up or deported to the countries where their so called detectors have killed people by not working.

I've added a piece on the Mexico deal to my blog at

http://ade651gt200scamfraud.blogspot.com/

http://explosivedetectorfrauds.blogspot.com

http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com/

Be helpful if we can get a few more links to this or better still the Techowiz and Lumpy blogs. Seems that ATSC website has managed to get above us all on Google and it would help to boost the rankings so that Jim doesn't get all the share of voice.

[Admin]

Be helpful if we can get a few more links to this or better still the Techowiz and Lumpy blogs. Seems that ATSC website has managed to get above us all on Google and it would help to boost the rankings so that Jim doesn't get all the share of voice.

If only there were a skeptical website in the UK that had plenty of free resources for project organizers and a strong Google ranking already in place...

It would be daft not to use it really.

[magnox]

The problem, as I'm sure you are all aware, is two-fold. Shutting down McCormick, whilst a worthy goal, will achieve nothing as long as the buyers are willing to take their cut.

"Hi, Jim here.. if you buy 250 of my worthless detectors for £40k each, I'll make sure you get your finder's fee of £4k per unit."

All this talk of independant/double-blind testing is pretty pointless. We all know they don't work, McCormick and associates know they don't work but, more importantly, the buyers know they don't work. However, for a quick million, they can be persuaded to look the other way. If you live in something-astan and were offered this deal, it is obviously very tempting.

I would be delighted to see McCormick take a jail sentence for what he has done. I don't think it's likely, but it would be justice served.

However, when and if this company is shut down, another will spring up to take its place. Perhaps not based in the UK, but another shyster will come. In fact, the rhubarb I grow in my vegetable patch will point to any explosive you're thinking of in your head, and I will sell it to your government for £40k a stick, and I'd be delighted to give you some kickback. It works on a magnetic/resonant/polarity/latent charge/zero point energy* theory and is proven to work as long as you buy it and your bank accepts my cheques.

(* delete as appropriately disproven on respected web sites)

It's good work you're doing fellas, but its the governments that could stamp this out almost immediately.

Ah yes, silly me. The kickbacks.