derek Ogilive taking the million doller challenge on 5

[invisibleboy]

now should be fun

[JayUK]

Where was the double blind in that last experiment? The one with the brain scan.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the bloke who took the scans is the same bloke who analysed them right?

It always makes me laugh when a magician can set up a more scientific test than a scientist.

So in the end he got the answer he wanted. Still don't have the Millions dollors though do ya, twat.

[Mongrel]

Where was the double blind in that last experiment? The one with the brain scan.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the bloke who took the scans is the same bloke who analysed them right?

Here he is, his actual website is down though. He did seem predisposed towards a good result though and the "Biofeedback" looks (to me anyway) a little iffy, where's Dr B when you need him

[LucaAltieri]

Disgrace. Failed two scientific experiments to see if he could do what he claims... then painted out to have been truthful in the end with some nonsense brain scan.

Why are they even trying to lend credibility to a man who spent most of the time talking about little aches and pains the kids were supposed to be feeling?

Utter rubbish.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Just posted this over on BadPsychics:

http://www.childrenofthenewearth.com/ihd/print.php?ID=508

This 'doctor' can be found on an Indigo Children website - that tells you all you really need to know. I also found him on alternative healer websites.

However, looking at some of the services he provides

Neurofeedback : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofeedback

Energy Healings (brennan) : http://www.barbarabrennan.com/

It's complete garbage. He claims to be an energy healer. He is NOT a scientist.

Before that bit at the end, that was probably the best documentary about a psychic I've ever seen. The last 10 minutes was completely misleading and that piece of sympathetic treatment was surely part of the deal to get Ogilvie to go to America in the first place.

Why else spend so long explaining rationally what Ogilvie is doing, then claim that the guy at the end is a scientist, when he really is just a fruitloop with a brain monitoring machine.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Here he is, his actual website is down though. He did seem predisposed towards a good result though and the "Biofeedback" looks (to me anyway) a little iffy, where's Dr B when you need him

Wondered why you were looking at the rapist websites?

[Mongrel]

Wondered why you were looking at the rapist websites?

You have an evil mind
Carry on

[Mulder]

The Doc never said Derek was telepathic, just that his brain was unusual (a trait shared with 0.3% of the population). He said the EEG revealed that Derek was using parts of his brain associated with emotional, non-verbal communication similar to a trance-like state. Derek's reported subjective experiences apparently agreed with the EEG results.

Why is this so controversial? Are people saying that the Doc faked the results or misinterpreted them or took the readings wrongly?

I don't see the idea that psychics might have unusual brains at all surprising. I think it is something well worth investigating.

[Dr B]

Where was the double blind in that last experiment? The one with the brain scan.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the bloke who took the scans is the same bloke who analysed them right?

Why on earth does an EEG experiment need to be double-blind? The data are what they are - but that does not stop some from dodgy interpretations - but a double-blind won't stop that.

By the way - it was an EEG experiment and not a brain scan.

[Mulder]

I'm sure Dr B will correct me but doesn't 'non-verbal communication' include such things as reading body language?

[Dr B]

I'm sure Dr B will correct me but doesn't 'non-verbal communication' include such things as reading body language?

its part of it - but things like posture, eye-movements, facial expressions etc have a big impact on this.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

The Doc never said Derek was telepathic, just that his brain was unusual (a trait shared with 0.3% of the population). He said the EEG revealed that Derek was using parts of his brain associated with emotional, non-verbal communication similar to a trance-like state. Derek's reported subjective experiences apparently agreed with the EEG results.

Why is this so controversial? Are people saying that the Doc faked the results or misinterpreted them or took the readings wrongly?

I don't see the idea that psychics might have unusual brains at all surprising. I think it is something well worth investigating.

This information wasn't given in relation to any standards. We don't know what he was referring to.

The red flag for me went up imediatedly when the 'doctor' stated that people with Derek's gift often had unusual brain patterns.

Assuming there is a gift in the first place is the problem - that will then lead to all sorts of cherrypicking of data and confirmation bias.

The comment re double blinding above - I can see where that is coming from. What would have been a more 'scientific' test would have been to examine derek's brain without the examiner knowing who is being tested. Then that could be compared against standard brain patterns. If there is an abnormal aspect to Derek's brain activity, has the Doctor just cherrypicked a small part of the restuls to highlight this?

All this is pretty insignificant in my mind anyhow, until someone could demonstrate to me that a) the doctor is competent and b) there is some sort of science behind the apparatus used to measure the brain activity. It's a bit like giving a ghost hunter an EMF reader. The reader will detect fields but on it's own, that information is meaningless.

All in all, it was pretty disappointing end to the programme.

[Mulder]

All this is pretty insignificant in my mind anyhow, until someone could demonstrate to me that a) the doctor is competent

So you ARE questionning his competence?

and b) there is some sort of science behind the apparatus used to measure the brain activity.

It was an EEG. The science is pretty well known.

It's a bit like giving a ghost hunter an EMF reader. The reader will detect fields but on it's own, that information is meaningless.

I gather the doctor is an expert in EEG analysis, unless we are being lied to.

I still don't see the problem here at all. I could understand the fuss if anything paranormal was being claimed but it isn't. I think it entirely plausible that some psychics may have unusual brain function that make them think they have extrasensory abilities. I think it is well worth investigating. A project for Dr French perhaps ...

[Mulder]

Would people have questionned the EEG if the doc had said Derek's brain was completely ordinary?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

So you ARE questionning his competence?



It was an EEG. The science is pretty well known.

I want to know if he is competent in that area. He believes in energy healing and his details can be found on the wbsites of Indigo Children. I have no idea how he interprets EEG readings and whether he does within the confines of conventional science. Belief in energy healing does not preclude the abilty to read EEG, but it does raise questions about the ability to interpret evidence.

I gather the doctor is an expert in EEG analysis, unless we are being lied to.

I still don't see the problem here at all. I could understand the fuss if anything paranormal was being claimed but it isn't. I think it entirely plausible that some psychics may have unusual brain function that make them think they have extrasensory abilities. I think it is well worth investigating. A project for Dr French perhaps ...

They didn't disclose any of his more unusual beliefs, so obviously we weren't being given the full picture. It was a sneaky way of adding sensationalism to the programme whatever way you look at it.

I agree that if ogilvie was trying to do cold reading, then it is quite clearly posisble that he was using his brain differently to other people. I know not near enough about EEG to comment further, but mabe they picked up that he was using the part of the brain commonly used for guessing?

Would people have questionned the EEG if the doc had said Derek's brain was completely ordinary?

No, because then there wouldn't be a claim to investigate.