BMWoo

**Mojo** · 13th June 2006, 09:40 PM

I've just read a transcript of a talk Edzard Ernst gave in January about medico-legal issues in complementary and alternative medicine (Medico-Legal Journal (2006) Vol. 74 Part 2, 56-68). He showed a slide of a BMW, and explained that after being cut up by one he decided to research their sales figures and correlate them with sales figures of sCAM products. He found a direct correlation between the two. He suggests that this indicates that the popularity of sCAM has something to do with the general level of affluence.

**tkingdoll** · 14th June 2006, 12:44 AM

I have a BMW, and I'm a poor skeptic. How does that figure into his calculations?

I don't doubt that CAM is widely used by the affluent; they can afford it, for one, and they don't rely so much on the NHS (who don't use CAM as much as real medicine), for two. But it's not exclusively used by the affluent by any stretch of the imagination.

I could find a correlation between any two sets of sales figures for any industry. Playing with data does not a causation make.

He's made a rather silly mistake. New car sales are driven by new model releases, new registration periods, and depreciation windows, not just periods of economic stability (my two biggest clients are automotive, I know the market well). He is saying that people are getting richer, and so can afford luxury cars, and if the population is getting richer, they can therefore also afford CAM? And that therefore CAM is a luxury item?

Well, I can fully believe that, in the same way that Organic food is largely for those who can afford it. But his data poking does not prove it one iota. He needs source data for that, namely information from the CAM market itself. For example, surveying CAM buyers and ascertaining their disposable income levels. Duh.

**Mojo** · 14th June 2006, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

I have a BMW, and I'm a poor skeptic. How does that figure into his calculations?

You may just be at one end of a bell curve, or something...

Anyway, yours won't show up in the sales figures, will it?

He's made a rather silly mistake.

He did also say that it shows that he knows nothing about statistics and badly abuses correlations.

I just liked the thread title!

**median** · 14th June 2006, 08:21 AM

I have a BMW, and I'm a poor skeptic

Nonsense Teek, I think you are a very good skeptic

**tkingdoll** · 14th June 2006, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

He did also say that it shows that he knows nothing about statistics and badly abuses correlations.

Ohhh, you tell us that now.

He's not the only one, it's *whispers* everywhere.

I even do it myself sometimes. On purpose! :eek:

**Admin** · 21st June 2006, 10:44 PM

Ah! but isn't BMW ownership related to income which is related to education...

I looked at CAM use last year: http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.ph...e_medicine.php

There are several reasons why people use it and, seemingly paradoxically, intelligence and education levels have a positive correlation with CAM usage.

Because of the nature of UKS articles I didn't cite a load of sources (they are for laypeople) but I got the info from several universities' research.

**Jocky** · 29th June 2006, 09:04 AM

Because of the nature of UKS articles I didn't cite a load of sources (they are for laypeople) but I got the info from several universities' research.

John, to digress from BMW drivers being suckers for woo medicine (present company excepted teek

):

I think that making references to that research available somewhere on the site would be a good idea. When you've done research from reputable sources it seems a shame to waste it! I take your point about not cluttering up stuff intended for laypeople with lots of footnotes and quotes from technical papers, but you could just put a link at the bottom of the article to another page containing a bibliography. At least that way the curious would have somewhere to go, the authors would get some credit, and the critical would not be able so claim you made it all up.

**Mojo** · 29th June 2006, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by John Jackson

There are several reasons why people use it and, seemingly paradoxically, intelligence and education levels have a positive correlation with CAM usage.

"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Wossname spring."

**Admin** · 29th June 2006, 06:33 PM

I know what you're saying Jocky and I suppose there should be more 'further reading' links really.

We did look at this issue right at the beginning though and decided not to have links, citations and references all over the place. It's about catering to the target audience.

Most of the articles are topic overviews rather than highly specific. If we do some more in-depth looks at issues then more citations will be needed. All at the bottom of the article though.

I want articles presented so that the non-scientist can read them and, hopefully, grasp the points made.