On Thursday night I went to see Derren Brown's stage show in London's West End.
I was not entirely sure which forum a topic on Derren Brown should go in, as although some of his illusions and tricks make him appear psychic, he always maintains that he has no psychic abilities.
The show was impressive, but more so entertaining. Whilst a lot of his tricks were impressive, for most of them it was possible to work out ways in which they had been done and there was at least one trick where the "solution" was blatantly obvious. The most impressive trick was when he played "20 Questions" with several members of the audience, and working out some of the most obscure objects in under ten questions.
I thought for a lot of the time that the tricks could have been easily performed using confederates, but Brown has always maintained that he never uses stooges and the person I was seeing the show with "got involved", and had Derren tell things about her that he "could not possibly know".
Well after the show I decided to buy a copy of his DVD (Something Wicked This Way Comes) which was somewhat similar to the show I had seen, except that at the end after the grand finale, Derren revealed how throughout the show he had been subliminally messaging the whole audience, so no matter who was picked (Derren throws frisbees/stuffed animals to get random members of the audience) the finale would work.
So I was wondering what people think of Derren's powers of suggestion, for anybody who has seen him? I find the thought of him being able to convince and entire audience of one thing and be so sure that no matter who was picked, the finale would succeed, because...well that's a pretty strong skill (not power) to have. In the same way, I don't like the idea (and as yet do not believe) that somebody can hypnotise someone and cause them to do certain things.
(I've been deliberately vague as to what Derren actually performed, just in case anybody else would be seeing his show during the tour - although if pandered, I might give in)
I saw him myself about 3 years ago - I think it was on the Something Wiked tour, in fact. Thankfully I was well out of range of even the most enthusiastically-thrown monkey.
As for his methods, I think a lot of the time he's playing the odds - at a rough guess, I'd say around 80% of people are susceptible to the kind of suggestions he makes. I seem to recall him at some point (not in the live show but on the television) turning a few people away after taking a good look at them - he knew that his methods would likely not work for them.
The man has a truly phenomenal understanding of the human mind.
I'm not an expert magician by any means, but I have read a few things about how tricks are done. Even wikipedia gives away some secrets.
I am sometimes mystified by how Derren does tricks, but I think the main thing is that his sublimimal messaging thing is just misdirection mainly. And I also don't think he plays the odds most of the time. I suspect he maybe does use hypnotism, but hypnotism does work with suggestible people and can produce results. As you say a lot of his tricks, if you ignore the misdirection, seem quite basic and spot-able (even though he executes them very skillfully). But then again, he always seems to pull out a total barnstormer at the end of the show....
Incidentally, on his show on Friday night, the one with David Tennant, did anyone else guess the girl was going to draw a kitten?
Yep, what Farside said. He doesn't use 'subliminal messaging', and in fact it's not really possible to make someone say or do something by providing subtle clues as he claims.
The explanations are just part of the act. The real methods are very mundane indeed.
But, what's more interesting as an explanation, a hidden camera and earpiece*, or memorising a phone book overnight using years of mnemonics training? If the audience knew the real methods, he wouldn't sell any tickets.
*not necessarily the method Derren uses for the phone book trick.
Derren is an excellent entertainer who says at the begining of everything that what he does is a combination of techniques including, psychology, mis-direction, suggestion and magic (though he never really says what he is using for any particular technique - but then why should he?).
Actually - you can use certain techniques to influence certain types of decisions. It's largely related to the salient emphasis technique of various factors like temporal and spatial presentations of items etc. You can make people choose a particualr Zener card (for example) via its spatial location and certain cards are choosen more often than others. Use both combinations together and you vastly increase your chances of a hit. It's not suggestion - but it is influence of sorts.......
It's hard to discuss this without giving too much away. But assuming that the way he does one thing is the way he does everything is a trap you'll find many people coming out of his shows have fallen into.
He does an excellent job of using well-known suggestions and tricks (like the ideomotor effect, just as an example) to make you feel you know more than you really do.
In fact, all that is now the main reason I'm reluctant to reveal secrets. Far more important than preserving the mystery for entertainment purposes is that it's better all round if people don't know how the trick is done. Knowing a lot but not enough is a very good way to end up believing something really is done using some particular method when that method doesn't work, or worse that something you've seen is genuinely impossible to do by trickery.
Better that people aren't too arrogant and are prepared to admit they don't know how something is done without assigning the first vaguely plausible explanation they come across to it.
I'm still bitter from finding out Derren's gay. I went through a real Derren phase a couple of years back- nothing creepy but I did have something of a crush. Now I know that even on the slim chance I even met him I wouldn't be able to lure him with my feminine wossname...well, it's taken all the magic out of it for me.
Derren, Gay?!Originally Posted by seren
I'm still bitter from finding out Derren's gay. I went through a real Derren phase a couple of years back- nothing creepy but I did have something of a crush. Now I know that even on the slim chance I even met him I wouldn't be able to lure him with my feminine wossname...well, it's taken all the magic out of it for me.
First Dumbledore, now Derren Brown. What is it with these wizards? Next you'll be telling me that Seigfried and Roy are more than just good friends.
Yes, but magic NEVER works this way. Magicians do not take chances, and an 80% (or whatever) chance of a card in a certain position being chosen isn't good enough for a reliable trick. So although it's theoretically possible, it's not what Derren does. If you want someone to pick a particular card, you force it on them. If they have a free choice, then you have a different ending to the trick for each possible choice. But never do you rely on the audience member falling for any sort of suggestion for a stage show.
Actually - you can use certain techniques to influence certain types of decisions. It's largely related to the salient emphasis technique of various factors like temporal and spatial presentations of items etc. You can make people choose a particualr Zener card (for example) via its spatial location and certain cards are choosen more often than others. Use both combinations together and you vastly increase your chances of a hit. It's not suggestion - but it is influence of sorts.......
An example of this is a card I made which has the numbers 1 2 3 4 on the front, and "I guessed you'd choose 3" on the back. Most people do in fact choose 3, but if I took that on stage I'd be an idiot, unless I had a different ending for the person who didn't choose 3.
Last edited by tkingdoll; 19th May 2008 at 04:39 PM.
I went to see his latest show last night in London.
The first half was his usual mind-reading act, whereas the second half consisted mostly of divining what was inside sealed envelopes that audience members had written during the interval.
Anyone with a passing knowledge of magic could see how these tricks were done, but the showmanship is what elevated them above your normal magic act.
I never said that example was the 'magic' one. The point is he employs a host of techniques together. Sometimes it is basic trickery (indeed most times) - but sometimes it is not (I have also seen derren fail on a number of occasions - which is totally unlike a trick). The point you are making is not against my point as i never argued (nor did derren and this is where many are getting confused) that a given particular example involves specifically magic, suggestion, or misdirection etc. He employs a hodge-podge of methods and is clear on the matter - (or thats my reading of his disclaimer anyway). Picking out one thing he does and saying 'thats not magic' is not an argument against my point - that some of what he does is based on other techniques like probabilities (though I do admit he is using those examples less and less these days
The Zener card example I gave above is a different way to do it - one Geller uses and so do others. Certain cards are picked more often and the position in which they occupy is picked more often (an attentional bias). I think Geller always uses the star in the second from right position - but the point is both combinations interact and do produce more selections. I think Randi talks about this exact bias in one of his books. I am not saying there are not other ways to do it - but this works very well. I have also done it myself for years as part of public presentations it works about 75% of the time.If you want someone to pick a particular card, you force it on them. If they have a free choice, then you have a different ending to the trick for each possible choice. But never do you rely on the audience member falling for any sort of suggestion for a stage show.
I think where people get confused is they are not paying attention to the contextual information he provides (which is vague - but appropriate for a performer).
Last edited by Dr B; 20th May 2008 at 09:47 AM.
Although to be fair, he does use some methods and technology which are way outside a 'passing' knowledge of magic. But that's partially why people fall for the psychology shtick, it's plausible enough, and easier than having to imagine what gadgets an inventor might possibly have come up with. And this why people have fallen for magic throughout history. Way back when, a thumb-tip was an unimaginable bit of magic technology. Now, you have micro-transmitters and all sorts of crazy sci fi stuff.
As someone said previously I think he does have a great understanding of the human mind but I wouldn't rule out that he doesn't use stooges. After all a lot of magic does actually involve them to make a trick work. A lot of the good results may be due to compliance of the person he is doing the trick for.
I watched one of his shows - Trick or Treat - the other night where he told a young woman NOT to press the button which would electrocute a kitten in a glass cage. Of course she pressed it. That may have been due to her knowing she was meant to do that to make it work. I'm sure a lot of people would have seen his very obvious NLP techniques.
I don't know if I'd classify that as an NLP technique. Tell 10 people not to push a button (whatever the consequences) and see how many do it "Just to see what would happen"
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