Well well and well again.
http://forums.enturbulation.org/7-ge...entology-2647/
Wasn't going to bring up all this Anonymous anti-Church of Scientology stuff (didn't exactly get a rapturous welcome at the JREF forums when someone mentioned it) but this here has got my interest.
The scientologists have their greasy paws all over alternative therapies it appears. That creeps me out.
[angry mode="ranting"]
It's all about the money. They have absolutely no concern or respect for the physical welfare of people, their mental health, their families or friends, the law of the land, paying fair taxes, etc. etc. etc.
Scumbags.
[/angry]
May I add a note of caution. Not all naturopaths are associated with the link you posted. Do not confuse what goes on with an American cult with the rest or the world.
I see a naturopath and if you accused her of belonging to that group she would pull out a gun and shoot you! (lot of ladies have guns where I live so it normal(ish) practice.
There is a lot about naturopathy at www.quackwatch.org, particularly its subsite (which is probably naturowatch).Originally Posted by davron
As for "not all naturopaths" are associated with that cult, can you provide any evidence that yours is not simply a member of another cult? In the US, we have two such cults- one is self-taught (or has an unaccredited "diploma") and the other graduates from an accredited school of naturopathy. (The latter call the former impostors, I am not sure how the former reply.) Nonetheless, the college graduates are just as ignorant as the self-taught.
Some day, I may write an article on "Quackery 101" in which I will describe all the dodges used by quacks. Your naturopath's claim is one of them. Basically, there cannot be two kinds of medicine. There is medicine that is known to be safe and effective, and there is everything else. One can make finer distinctions (such as experimental medicine); but most "healing" outside of medicine is unproven, disproven, and implausible. Your naturo does not have a medical degree, and is not practicing legitimate healthcare.
An American answer from an American, how..original.
America, in spite of what the Americans think does not run or dictate what happens in world. Many lands do not have American cults, thank you, we have cults of our own!
Also to be a naturopath you can study in Germany, UK, Canada, Australia etc, etc. So now we have a global consiracy all naturopths are cult members, all training institutions are run by cults, the governments of the places where they are trained are subject to the cults as well. Ahhhh, got it now the USA is a cult, ruled by a secret body of cult members who are all '......ologists' of some kind.
Well, glad we got that sorted out!
Davron
It seems we have, indeed.
Quite frankly I don't give a damn whether it's linked to a cult or not, it's codswallop either way
Brianp,
I am not worried that you consider its codswallop (what is a codswallop anyway?). Just glad that you do not assume everyone associated with it is a 'cult' member because they dont think like you. That falls into the 'all Jews are mad zealots and kill little children, all Muslims are mad zealots and kill little children, all Christians, Hindus etc, etc'.
Davron
While you are researching the meaning of "codswallop" perhaps you could research the meaning of "straw man" in logical argument. These are opportunities to obtain an education in language as well as thought processes.Brianp,
I am not worried that you consider its codswallop (what is a codswallop anyway?). Just glad that you do not assume everyone associated with it is a 'cult' member because they dont think like you. That falls into the 'all Jews are mad zealots and kill little children, all Muslims are mad zealots and kill little children, all Christians, Hindus etc, etc'.
Davron
I will, I hope, make it easier for you- a common meaning of "codswallop" is "nonsense." The "straw man" is your rant about "killing children;" that is, attributing statements to us that we have not made. It is easy to knock down an absurd argument (a straw man) that has never been made.
It is on you to prove that naturopathy is healthcare, anywhere, (you made that claim, you must support it, that is the rule in argument). We know you cannot meet that challenge.
Concise Oxford English Dictionary
Codswallop n Brit. informal nonsense.
Well I read the site or should I say I scaned it, one of the firt things I notice was the 'use of herbs on the skin to change vital organs'. Isnt that HRT patch? Just pointing out that one of the things they advocated is now standard medical practice.
None of what it states meets my experiance of being treated by a naturopath. So I will plod along further and share as I find. I suspect that the site represents a truly an American perception or practice. I also note that the practices mention date back about 100 years, if we were to judge modern medicine by the same criteria we would place it alongside your views of on naturopathy.
Davron
NO. I think the clue might be in the name of HRT, which is Hormone Replacement Therapy. These contain hormones, not herbs.
Some herbs contain chemical substances that have influence on the hormonal system. There are also herbs that affect blood sugar levels, digestion etc, etc. Placing them on the skin in the form of a poultices allows them to be absorbed into the blood stream, hence my remark about HRT, poorly explained I will admit. Its just I feel strongly that you should not throw the baby out with the bath water.
The anti naturopathy site also mentions acupuncture, which again has a great body of evidence around the suggesting that it does work. A system that is relied upon by about a third of the world if not half of it cannot the just dismissed out of hand because it does not fit how intellectual concept of what medicine should be and should do.
Slightly off track but relevant I feel, interestingly allopathic medicine spends a great deal of time exploring the world's natural medicine resources, finding ones that work and then trying to synthesise them. The end result is of course they sell to us, with no profits or acknowledgements to the native peoples who they took them from.
Don't get me wrong, I rather like antibiotics they come in very useful when things are going all drippy and green. Whilst wandering around the net I came across another quack watch site which was devoted to medical malpractice, inappropriate drug use and general lunacy conducted by allopathic doctors.
In the end, I rather feel that the process of quackery is universal and sits squarely on both sides of the fence, neither side claiming absolute ownership. In the end as with all of these things It rather boils down to the integrity of your physician.
Take a look a Pubmed.com and
what doctors don't tell you
Davron
Last edited by davron; 27th May 2008 at 08:01 AM.
The skin is a great barrier, keeping things outside one's body. Some hormones can be absorbed; most cannot. Each compound must be tested individually.
In your case, you are trying to use logic; but it is based on a false premise. It is a fallacious argument.
There is a subsite at quackwatch that covers acupuncture, as well. There is no evidence that acupuncture is better than placebo in any condition. The "evidence" for it, promoted by acupuncturists, is always substandard. It takes a great deal of scientific education to understand that.
Also, saying acupuncture is popular is another logical fallacy. It has no bearing on its effectiveness. In fact, Chinese, today, prefer real medicine. (That doesn't make medicine better, the research behind medicine makes it better.)
Perhaps you should read Rose Shapiro's "Suckers: How Alternative Medicine Makes Fools of Us All." It is an excellent introduction to the subject that does not require much technical knowledge.
Some herbs contain chemical substances that have influence on the hormonal system. There are also herbs that affect blood sugar levels, digestion etc, etc. Placing them on the skin in the form of a poultices allows them to be absorbed into the blood stream, hence my remark about HRT, poorly explained I will admit.
Davron
In this instance you used HRT as an example and HRT is not the same thing as a herbal poultice. HRT contains hormones and not herbs, which are deemed suitable for the women in question.
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