Are we becoming a conformist society?

[MRT]

The British are generally seen as tolerant and non-conformist. However, I see signs that we are becoming a more conformist society, like others around the world.

It starts in school. The national curriculum, with its continuous testing culture has, according to some commentators, changed schools from places of education into training systems for exams. Though pupils can regurgitate the correct answers, one wonders if they appreciate the significance of their answers or even, in some cases, understand them.

The education system is now firmly targetted at getting people into jobs. Once they arrive in jobs, people will find they are now very much subject to a 'system'. Most jobs are now heavily regulated by written procedures. The scope for individual judgement and decision-making are severely constrained. Anyone stupid enough to do something off their own bat is more likely to reduce their chances of promotion rather than the reverse.

Companies try to counter this conformity culture by 'creativity courses' for employees. Naturally, it is difficult to ask someone who is the product of a system to now suddenly come up with original thoughts. Once, not that long ago, companies would employ one or two 'original thinkers' (usually in a desk in the corner, so that they didn't disturb people too much) to come up with innovations. Their eccentricities, and their lack of interest in the company culture, were tolerated in return for occasional innovations. Such people are generally seen as too 'difficult' to employ these days. Where these people went, I dread to imagine.

In wider society, too, we are increasingly controlled by political correctness, the nanny state and 'health and safety'. I've no problem with 'health and safety' as a concept except that instead of looking at historical data they tend to look at theoretical risk. Instead of 'how many hanging baskets have fallen and injured people' they ask 'what are the odds that a hanging basket will hit someone'. The fact that one never has is not seen as relevant.

Once we admired harmless eccentrics, having, as a nation, produced many of them. Now, the old bloke messing around in his garage, trying to invent something, is no longer a colourful eccentric who might just come up with something useful one day. Instead, he is negelecting his family and probably suffering from a psychiatric disorder (the breadth of these disorders widens every year - we will soon all be 'suffering' from something or other soon).

OK, officer, I'll come quietly ...

[Legaleagle]

I think the "conformism" you mention has simply shifted focus over the years. It was always there. 50 years ago most Britons worked in heavy industry, down mines, in mills and factories. Now, these production tasks could be seen as conformist, people were educated to a standard where they could understand their own responsibilities within the chain of production and fulfill those responsibilities. The smaller middle classes were better educated and perhaps enjoyed a more wide ranging type of education than we have now in the public/grammar schools of the time, but they were a small elite whom the state (or their own families) could afford to indulge.

The only change I see is that most employment in Britain is now in white collar occupations. These require a different standard of eductaion and this has led to the education system being adapted to churn out as many people as it can at the standards required by the employers. The Government has a target of getting 50% of people through university.

The rapid expansion from a small elite middle class to form an ever larger pool of white collar workers has meant that standards in education have had to slide. It simply hasn't proved possible (yet) to provide the high quality education that the middle classes used to expect on the scale that seems to be required nowadays.

The factories of today are in high rise office blocks in the big cities, thousands of workers sitting performing their one piece of the production process. It is wage slavery of a different hue, but it ain't that different to working on any other type of production line.

The eccentrics of today tend to be people who break free of the wage slavery in the big white collar factories and find themselves a little niche of their own doing something they enjoy and can do at their own pace. I think there are still plenty of these type of people out there (I know a few).

[MRT]

I The smaller middle classes were better educated and perhaps enjoyed a more wide ranging type of education than we have now in the public/grammar schools of the time, but they were a small elite whom the state (or their own families) could afford to indulge.

I don't think a small elite were 'indulged', I think they were highly necessary! And I think they are still necessary today but their numbers have shrunk. I agree most people now do white collar jobs but how long will those jobs last? With manufacture of just about everything having moved to the Far East (take a look at the label on the things you buy) we are becoming one huge service sector economy. That's fine for now but in the long term what will we do as China starts training up its own accountants, lawyers and architects?

My point is that have always, historically, been good at innovation (though often lousy at exploiting it). I think the current shifts in society discourage innovation and invention. The way we are going, we will end relying on tourism, like so many other countries.

Perhaps I should open a theme park for dotty inventors?

[MischiefMonkey]

While I will agree to an extent regarding the changes in education, I see little evidence that we have become more conformist.

Look at Dragon's Den for an array of eccentrics and innovators. IIRC, there has been an increase in patents being filled by individuals rather than companies, though companies like Dyson are continuing to file plenty. Can't remember how many they file a day but its a lot.

The government is encouraging innovation - Long, boring PDF from the DTI

Then look around you. At the risk of sounding like an old fart, in my day we had a few teen sub cultures - 'townie', goth, punk etc. There are more subdivisions within sub-cultures now. Look at 'Emo's - but don't ever call them goths!! It could be argued they are conforming to the expectations of their chosen sub group, but it is outside mainstream conformity.

Look at criminals - whole new crimes created to exploit new technology and social structures. ID theft on a huge scale, on-line fraud and ebay scams.

On the other hand, after a spot of teenage rebellion, most people like to conform. We feel more comfortable belonging to a group. However there is, and I hope always will be, room for the dreamers, eccentrics and innovators.

[MRT]

Criminals!!!!!!!!!!!

You think innovative criminal activity is a sign of a healthy society???
I hope you're pulling my leg!

Regarding youth cultures - these have always existed and always will. But, after the gap year and college, they just can't wait to get stuck into work, a mortgage (if they can afford it) and a long term relationship!

[Legaleagle]

I don't think a small elite were 'indulged', I think they were highly necessary!

I don't disagree with you. My point is that I don't think that there are resources and money available to give everyone who wants it an "all the frills" education anymore.

And I think they are still necessary today but their numbers have shrunk. I agree most people now do white collar jobs but how long will those jobs last? With manufacture of just about everything having moved to the Far East (take a look at the label on the things you buy) we are becoming one huge service sector economy. That's fine for now but in the long term what will we do as China starts training up its own accountants, lawyers and architects?

I don't think it's necssarily anything to do with Chinese accountants, lawyers and architects as these professions don't tend to compete much internationally. It's our current dominance in the world of trade, finance and investment that sustains the service economy. We have to keep dominance in this area in order to ensure that our economy continues to flourish. I don't see reverting back to a manufacturing economy is going to do anything other than drag our GDP/head down to China's level in record time.

Ask yourself where the profits of the Companies who manufacture in China actually go. In the vast majority of the cases I think you will find that they come right back here.

Some manufacturing can still be done profitably in this Country and indeed, the output of UK manufacturing has never been higher (although less people work in the sector than ever before). But we can only manufacture high tech, niche products profitably. I don't think you will ever see the return of the traditional heavy industries to these shores (in fact if you did, I think it would be a sign that we were in deep economic trouble)

My point is that have always, historically, been good at innovation (though often lousy at exploiting it). I think the current shifts in society discourage innovation and invention. The way we are going, we will end relying on tourism, like so many other countries.

Perhaps I should open a theme park for dotty inventors?

I think that the UK punches well above it's weight in terms of scientific innovation. This Country produces more nobel scientists per capita than any other in the world. Whether we exploit those innovations as well as we might I don't really know. Maybe science and technology are too complex these days for the traditional mad inventor in his garage to have much impact any more.

[MischiefMonkey]

Criminals!!!!!!!!!!!

You think innovative criminal activity is a sign of a healthy society???
I hope you're pulling my leg!

Lol, yes and no. While obviously criminality isn't a sign of a healthy society, you've got admit they are innovating

Regarding youth cultures - these have always existed and always will. But, after the gap year and college, they just can't wait to get stuck into work, a mortgage (if they can afford it) and a long term relationship!

How is that any different to any other period in recent times? As I said, most people want to conform. But there will always be those who don't conform.

Non-conformity isn't always a good thing - criminals aren't exactly conformists are they?

[MRT]

It's our current dominance in the world of trade, finance and investment that sustains the service economy. We have to keep dominance in this area in order to ensure that our economy continues to flourish. I don't see reverting back to a manufacturing economy is going to do anything other than drag our GDP/head down to China's level in record time.

I wasn't suggesting we go back to manufacturing. I was just pointing out that we can't fall back on it because it ain't there any more - I'm not sure eveeryone reaslises that. Regarding the finance sector - yes, I know about that as I used to work in it. That's why I know there is really no fundemental reason why that shouldn't move east as well as China's economy matures and becomes the biggest in the world.

Regarding science: that is another field where conformity is being gradually applied. The average scientist spends more time on grant applications these days than in the lab. They are also forced to publish a lot more, even when publication is hardly merited by the work covered. A scientist's worth is no longer measured by what he or she has discovered but by their ability to attract grants and the sheer weight (rather than merit) of their publication. Whether we will continue to 'punch above our weight' looks doubtful to me.

Regarding inventors in garages: HP, Google and Apple started in 'garages' in silicon valley!

[MRT]

As I said, most people want to conform. But there will always be those who don't conform.

I agree but my point is more want to conform and there is less tolerance of those who don't.

Non-conformity isn't always a good thing - criminals aren't exactly conformists are they?

Obviously society can only tolerate a small number of non-conformists. On the other hand, if there were none society would stagnate. It's like evolution. Non-conformists are the mutations. Without them, we will fail to adapt to new conditions because we will be unable to think of different possibilities.

I think criminals actually conform to their own subculture - it's just not a widely adopted one.

[brodski]

I agree but my point is more want to conform and there is less tolerance of those who don't.

I think that is absolutely wrong, over the past 50 years- indeed over eth past 500 years, eth driving force in British (and western) society has been from the group to the individual. People are now far more tolerant of individuals rather than groups than at any point in prior history. Yes there is still social and economic pressure to “conform” to a type (there always will be to a greater or lesser degree as a basic level of conformity is actually what society is about), but there is much less legal and violent pressure to conform.

[MRT]

The timescale I am thinking of is since the 1960s or thereabouts.

[MischiefMonkey]

The timescale I am thinking of is since the 1960s or thereabouts.

In the sixties it was frowned upon to have a child out of wedlock. Huge pressure was put on unwed mothers to have the baby adopted. Mixed marriages were rare. There was relatively few couples living in sin. You couldn't be gay and out.

We are now free to have what ever family unit we want. Both legally (apart from polygamy) and societally.

I would say we are less conformist and more tolerant.

[brodski]

The timescale I am thinking of is since the 1960s or thereabouts.

When homosexuality was still illegal? When women still needed to "know their place" and where legally discriminated against? When "living in sin" was a great social taboo? When "mixed race" couples faced violence and harassment?

At what point in time was it more acceptable to be “different” than it is now?

[MRT]

What you are describing is moving social norms ie. what is considered normal behaviour. These things inevitably change with time (we don't burn witches at the stake any more either). What I'm saying is that there is less tolerance of those who are far away from those norms.

If you think of a bell curve - the norm is the central hump while the non-conformists occupy the tails at the edge. In terms of such a curve, I'm saying the norm is becoming fatter and the tails thinner. The norm may have changed with time but it's frowned on to stray too far away from it these days. Such people are highly likely to be 'diagnosed' as having a psychological 'disorder' when once they were merely harmless eccentrics. Now such people must be 'cured' when once they were considered useful for creating new ideas.

[MischiefMonkey]

What you are describing is moving social norms ie. what is considered normal behaviour. These things inevitably change with time (we don't burn witches at the stake any more either). What I'm saying is that there is less tolerance of those who are far away from those norms.

If you think of a bell curve - the norm is the central hump while the non-conformists occupy the tails at the edge. In terms of such a curve, I'm saying the norm is becoming fatter and the tails thinner. The norm may have changed with time but it's frowned on to stray too far away from it these days. Such people are highly likely to be 'diagnosed' as having a psychological 'disorder' when once they were merely harmless eccentrics. Now such people must be 'cured' when once they were considered useful for creating new ideas.

Are you talking about people with bi-polar disorders? Autistic Spectrum?

I'm not sure I am following your arguement.

I think there is evidence that we, as a country, are still having plenty of new ideas. There is evidence that many eccentric individuals are still having new ideas. Look at patents or Dragon's Den as I mentioned earlier.

I see no evidence that more 'eccentric' individuals are being diagnosed and 'cured'. I do however see better diagnosis and treatment/management, and indeed acceptance and tolerance towards, those with mental illnesses and 'differences'. As the medical profession has learnt more, so we the public has. Where as a few years ago someone might be considered a 'weirdo' if they have Asperger's syndrome, now people accept that they are just 'different'.

Can you give any specific examples of what you mean?