I wasn't quite sure where to put this post but here seems as good a place as any.
I'd like to know why... (and perhaps that question has been put before - but it hasn't been answered-)
...why, believers believe? I keep hearing anecdotal stuff which, with respect, is interesting, but it gives no idea as to why these experiences have qualified believers with 'knowledge' of the existence of spirit. I don't want to hear an argument for it's existence - oh, spirit exists because I've seen it - but what it actually means for the believer, to have this 'knowledge'?
Not blowing my big old trumpet here, my actual experience with communicating with the dead and my own guides is extremely small compared to practising mediums. To answer your question, what it means to have this knowledge, well firstly I can now see that the point we are all at now, us as in the human race and the whole planet, is not even a minuscule pin-prick in the ticker-tape of eternity. Okay, we will never again inhabit the physical bodies we have now, but now I certainly do not fear death. In fact (yes, this did become too much of a temptation at one time) I am coming to believe that the 'spirits' are far more understanding and non-judgemental than us here will ever be. The thing is though, they know that we have to make our own choices, we have to make the choices which mean we may or may not develop, in the longer scheme of things. So, they can be quite 'socratic' in their teaching style. Hope I haven't confused / offended you.Originally Posted by wooo_oops
I hope you guys don't mind - I've split these postings off to a new topic as I think it's interesting enough in itself to warrant it.
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Whatever religion or faith one explores, there has to be some personal resonance or it doesn't stick. It's almost as if one has a propensity to believe, some kind of internal model of an ideal belief system, and hence a need for a faith to follow which will tick all of those boxes.
In this enlightened age one can explore any number of faiths and religions until one finds the faith that fits one's internal model. It's largely about choosing the one that feels right.
For example, if I were to feel the need to adopt a faith to live by, it would be Buddhism, because for me quite a lot of the dogma makes sense. The religion is all about Living Today, not being good through fear of after-death retribution. At the other end of the scale is fundamental Christianity, which is built on fear and guilt and makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Once one finds a faith that fits - or at least one that ticks enough boxes - it's easy to ignore the bits that don't quite gel with one's internal model, and accept them because they are part of that faith.
Again, for example, when I was exploring spiritualism, it occurred to me that if I accepted life after death, I would have to accept reincarnation also, otherwise survival made no sense whatsoever.
This may be why there are so many different versions of what the afterlife is supposed to be like - because they're all made up to suit the particular protagonist's various views of logicality.
Hmmm. I am not sure this makes any sense and don't like posting such vague ideas, but maybe someone else can interpret what I'm trying to say and write it more lucidly?
Thanks John, I know you've asked a similar question before in another thread http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=18 with some interesting answers but I suppose this was a more personal approach.
I say personal because the notion that we are able to exist in spirit after we're dead and gone is completely anathema to me, partly because the comfort value of this idea is not enough for me as a thinking and questioning person, to justify its existence. I would be more concerned with having never had children, for instance.
Thanks TL, for your answer though...I am a little confused but not offended in the least!
I hope you don't mind more questions?
If having the belief helps you not to fear death, what does this say about your other fears? Do you fear being alone? Whether you fear death or not, we all die anyway, so what's the reasoning behind having your spirit carry on? I'm just curious to understand as to how such a huge notion as life after death has done anything for people apart from give comfort. I don't want to patronise, but you do know that you can get comfort down other avenues...from other members of your family or friends who are still alive, for instance?
The thing is, there are so many 'ifs' involved here. You say you 'know' and yet, none of us do for sure. Being a skeptic doesn't mean I stop asking questions - I ask more questions of sources which have real answers from living brains. You said yourself that spirit is non-judgemental and leaves us to make our own choices. If that's so, why did I make the choice not to believe that my dead mother is watching over me and capable of communication, if, as you're suggesting, you know that she is? (Before you say something to the effect that it's because I'm blocking her (doh!) or that she hasn't been in touch because she wants me to make my own decision about it, I will say... QED)!
Humans are genetically pre-disposed to believing in gods and the after life. When humans started to form large social groups, they needed a form of morality to keep order. Those who believed they were 'being watched' by gods, or 'spirits' of ancestors, would have become more moral, so adapting better to a social existence. Research has demonstrated that people who think 'gods' or 'spirits' might be watching them do indeed behave better.
We all have this adaption to a greater or lesser extent. Of course, atheists behave no worse or better than anyone else but atheism has only become tolerated in certain western societies very recently in evolutionary terms. There are still many societies in the world today where an atheist would have a very hard time of it. The vast majority of people in the world are either overtly religious or have at least passive beliefs in spiritual matters.
Once born, a human with a genetic predisposition to believe. is then subject to the continuous cultural transmission of religious and spiritual ideas. Many people are, even in modern western societies, still brought up 'in' a religion, even if they are too young to understand it. The ideas percolate in even if they are later rejected. Even after rejecting a faith, people will still be subject to uncritical coverage of paranormal phenomena in the popular media.
Given the above, I think the real question should be, 'why are there ANY people who DON'T believe in spirits?'
Pfft! Tell me about it! Took me half an hour to work out how to word stuff without sounding vague and incoherent because it's all so subjective.
Thanks though - food for thought as ever. My question is still why though. Why is the need there if not just for comfort?
Since neuroscience has found that we all have a brain, (duh) in which the emotional response (neural firing) to...lets call it 'religiosity', varies enormously from person to person, for one reason or another... it follows that we all have our different reasoning and are capable of making our own minds up about what we need to keep us going on our journey through life, but I feel that therein lies the 'how'. As to why, unless it's something to do with selection and social evolution (thanks Maurice)... then if we're happy to be a believer, does it make us more successful as a species?
No, still don't see why, since insects don't believe in spirits, or God, and they're pretty darn successful.
So evolutionary biologists say. We are a social species. Imagine what life would be like if we all lived in separate family groups like, say, foxes. Would we have invented the computer? Or even a language beyond a few grunts?
As with all genetic traits, religiousity has pluses and minuses. I bet you can guess the minuses ..
Ha! Never mind guess!
Cheers MRT.
Maybe the simple 'why' is just that it's too damn scary when we think that all 'This' is just an accident, that there's no point to anything, no reason or plan.
Come to think of it, what's the first thing any of us says when a personal disaster strikes? 'WHY?'
The idea that we have no control over life can feel unimaginably scary. Someone has to be responsible - there has to be a reason for things bad - or good. Hence the invention of God, the gods, fate et al. Gives us someone to blame, at least. (Though we usually have to reminded to give thanks as well when they're due.)
Probably the second thing that any of us says when disaster strikes is 'not my fault'. That's an instinctive reaction for sure. Those of us who do accept responsibility instantly have spent years learning how to do that. Much easier if we can invent a god, or fate, to blame.
So it's not quite 'comfort' - more a wish to abnegate our own responsibility.
I'm reading Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot" at the moment. On p49, he quotes from Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
"It is hard to prevent oneself from believing what one so keenly desires".
This is true. Sadly not for pessimistic/'realisticly selectively positive' types like me. I've always wanted as a girlfriend a really hot chick who has a great sense of fun but who is also compassionate and caring too, and all of this without being up her own backside. I have never ever believed I will achieve this, and to this day I do not believe I will get the things I want most from this life. O joy.
I don't know if there is anyone else here who minds discussing this but I also have had the old 'God / no God' thing but in a rather major way. I was a confirmed Christian but some things happened and I started to look at all the really crap things that happen in some peoples' lives. I abandoned the idea of God, or at least one that loved us.
Funnily enough it was after one really particularly crappy thing that I started to believe in a 'supreme being' again, but only after I started receiving messages from my guides, not through any desire to believe. I accept that although God loves us he can't control everything we do - free will and all that. I don't mind discussing these things at all. Not everyone has reason to believe/disbelieve; we all lead different lives.
[quote=wooo_oops;19076]
If having the belief helps you not to fear death, what does this say about your other fears? Do you fear being alone? Whether you fear death or not, we all die anyway, so what's the reasoning behind having your spirit carry on? I'm just curious to understand as to how such a huge notion as life after death has done anything for people apart from give comfort. I don't want to patronise, but you do know that you can get comfort down other avenues...from other members of your family or friends who are still alive, for instance? [quote]
Some of what I said to 'Bindeweede' above addresses this but on the point of fear/comfort, I personally lost faith in human nature years ago and I still managed to survive without faith in anything other than my own physiology and my handful of close friends (and the friends who helped me drink these liquid close friends;o) ) When I....i'm laughing here because I know what you will be thinking....when I began to realise that the 'signs' I had been given were quite possibly signs, I took things into my own hands, I thought 'I've got nothing to lose' and so I began to learn for myself if I could actually contact anything at all. What has happened since has provided comfort, but only when I have really needed it, not when I have just been feeling sorry for myself. It is the other messages which are far more interesting. Needless to say, I would rather not dicuss them here just yet and I am sure you won't be offended!
There are so many ifs about lots of things, none more so than the spirit plane. Although mediums have a variety of opinions based on thier own experiences and personalities, it is certain that spirits only make contact if there is a genuine need which will serve some kind of purpose. This may not be apparent immediately, e.g. a spirit saying 'your purse has fallen down the back of the small blue settee in the conservatory' may not be life-shattering info, but it may prove their existence to the sitter, thus relieving their grief. I am not the expert; Suppose you did want to talk to your mum again, would you accept a reading from one of the most reputable (not the most heard of though) mediums around? From the viewpoint of what I believe, your mother is content to wait until you meet again, should you choose to.The thing is, there are so many 'ifs' involved here. You say you 'know' and yet, none of us do for sure. Being a skeptic doesn't mean I stop asking questions - I ask more questions of sources which have real answers from living brains. You said yourself that spirit is non-judgemental and leaves us to make our own choices. If that's so, why did I make the choice not to believe that my dead mother is watching over me and capable of communication, if, as you're suggesting, you know that she is? (Before you say something to the effect that it's because I'm blocking her (doh!) or that she hasn't been in touch because she wants me to make my own decision about it, I will say... QED)!
Fair enough, but you've given me no reason to suspect that this was all down to your spirit guides and not down to your own coping mechanism. Sorry.
Of course I would choose to. I miss her terribly, but I can dream about her - which, I understand, is based on my memory of her. As for having a reading, I'm afraid I can not accept that it would be her communicating, rather than myself - a good 'medium' will pick up on what I already know, embellished with some stuff that would apply to any of us. What's the point of that?
That wasn't my intention. It would take quite something to convince you of my guides, and their messages are best kept to myself and a select group of very few people. They scare the hell out of me in fact.
I find that interesting. Okay you know I am not criticising or trying to change your thought here, but if the medium could tell you of things only you and her knew; if she could tell you exactly how and when your mother died; if she could tell you the name of your first pet when you were a child and all of its' characteristics, if she is picking these up from you, then surely some sunbconscious telepathy is involved?Of course I would choose to. I miss her terribly, but I can dream about her - which, I understand, is based on my memory of her. As for having a reading, I'm afraid I can not accept that it would be her communicating, rather than myself - a good 'medium' will pick up on what I already know, embellished with some stuff that would apply to any of us. What's the point of that?
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