"non-evasive psychic surgery"

[Mongrel]

I don't know if it relevant but a work colleague of mine who is on Facebook just changed his status to :

xxx hates secular Christmas things. Who cares about Rudolph? Jesus is who you need.

He is serious though, does that mean Poe's law doesn't apply?

More of a proving - If you didn't know the guy you'd be hard pressed to tell if it was a parody or it the real thing?

[Julia]

Jesus with your nose so bright,
Won't you guide my sleigh tonight?

It just doesn't have the same ring, does it?

[DrS]

Oh I don't know

[Matt]

Ah yes.

The fact that millions of times each year people rub the lotion traumeel into their strained muscles and get relief, is based on a delusion.

I looked up the ingredients of Traumeel ointment. Is this what you're talking about?

Traumeel™ Ointment contains in each 100 grams:

Belladonna 3X1.0 gmArnica montana radix 3X1.5 gmAconitum napellus 3X1.0 gmChamomilla 1X0.5 gmSymphytum officinale 4X0.1 gmCalendula officinalis 1X1.5 gmHamamelis virginina 1X1.5 gmMillefolium 1X0.3 gmHepar sulphuris calcareum 8X0.25 gmMercurius solubilis 8X 0.12 gmHypericum perforatum 6X0.09 gmBellis perennis 1X0.5 gmEchinacea augustifolia 1X0.5 gmEchinacea purpurea 1X0.5 gm

Inactive ingredients include purified water, paraffin, white petrolatum, ethanol and cetylstearyl alcohol

Some of the dilutions here are not what I'd call homepathic in nature. We're not running up against the molar limit of dilution. I'm quite prepared to believe for example that the quantities of Chamomilla (aka Chamomile) present in this preparation are active. I'd like to see a study that compares the preparation with and without the Chamomile to quantifiy just how effective it is. As has been mentioned the "Inactive ingedients" alone compined with the effects of rubbing would be expected to have some effect. The question at hand is whether the addition of these additional ingredients adds to that beneficial effect. The way to find this out is through double blind studies. If double blind studies prove that these extra ingredients do have a further beneficial effect then I'm happy to accept that.

The fact that the head coach of the French football team prefers homeopathy for quick and immediate relief of strains, is based on a delusion.

This I take it is Raymond Domenech? Yes he suffers from certain delusions. Using astrology to pick his team is one, I wouldn't be suprised that supporting homeopathy might be another. However what is this appeal to authority supposed to prove? If yopu'd told me why Monsieur Domenech supports homeopathy then perhaps I could take something from his reasons. Perhaps he's performed a double blind study treating a ready supply of strains with both homeopathic and conventional treatments. Given those sort of details I might be able to make a judgement.

The relief many individuals, especially women, get from sarsparilla for urinary tract infections, is based on a delusion.

Quite possibly. However when tests can identify the bacterium present so that targetted antibiotics can clear the infection completely as confirmed by later tests then "relief" might be a way of postponing effective treatment.

The relief many children get for chicken pox from taking rhus tox, is based on a delusion.

chicken pox clears on its own. How do you know the relif you mention comes from the substance you mention? Without proper trials this is just post hoc rationalisation.

etc. etc. etc.

Funny how people will deny the evidence when it is staring them right in the face.

I'm not denying that what you say is true. It's just that I know of alternative explanations that mean I can't reach the same conclusions as you do.

I suggest a trial. One hundred and fifty skeptics. Each will be hit with a hammer until bruised. 50 will be immediately be treated with Arnica, 50 with sugar water, 50 with nothing at all.

That's the ticket. Don't forget to double blind the trial. There's a minor ethical problem, you may have to make do with accidentally occuring bruises.

And you know what. I've no problem with beliveing that the herbal remedy of arnica is effective against bruising.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3104730.stm

Just the sort of tests you have suggested demonstrate its effectiveneess allowing us to isolate and improve upon the active ingredients.

It is sad, in a world where chronic ailments are on the increase, despite the increasing sophistication of medicine.

Ahem... I suppose you'll be telling us that seatbelts increase injuries next. An increase in people suffering such chronic ailments if true may simply be the result in a decrease in people dying from them...

It is sad, in a world where side effects from medications are rampant.

Not if the alternitives are worse.

It is sad, in a world where pharmaceutical conglomerates are busy trying to force feed their expensive products to the populace.

Yes it is. It's also a sad world where the billion dollar alternative health industry is busy trying to force feed their expensive ineffective products to the populace.

It is sad, in a world resistance to antibiotics is increasing because of overuse.

Yes it is, also bacuse of failure to complete the course due to poor education as to why this is important in preventing the rise of antibiotic resistance.

It is sad, in a world where a million anti-depressents are prescribed each day.

Yes it is, as it is sad that so many people feel they need them.

It is sad, in a world where ecological and economic considerations in healthcare are at crisis level.

I'm not sure what you're refering to.

It is sad, in a world where "authorities" in religion and politics and business have been proven so corrupt and destructive.

Corruption is sad, yes. I happen to think that proving and exposing it is a good thing though. It means that we have less corruption today than when such things were hushed and covered up.

It is sad, that a few internet groupies have got nothing better to do than attack those individuals attempting to right some of the aforementioned wrongs, by offering alternatives.

Do you realy think you're doing that? I'm not so sure you are. I suspect that you're unwittingly propagatng anti scientific thinking pushing us further into an "endarkenment"

It is sad, that the same few have such a little regard for other humans that they can declare that millions of experiences of having been helped by homeopathy, are delusionary.

I mean no offense when I say they're delusional. The fact is that Millions of people CAN be wrong. Have you heard of Korean Fan Death?

Who is rational? Who is irrational?

We're both using reason. However your reason is not based on empirical evidence. Mine is. Reason is no guarentee of truth. Garbage in, garbage out.

Who is hiding their mean-spirited, narrow-mindedness behind a mask of rationality, of scepticism?

Are you calling me mean spirited, that would be rather mean spirited of you don't you think?

Who is really thinking for themselves?

I am, are you?

[Mojo]

I suggest a trial. One hundred and fifty skeptics. Each will be hit with a hammer until bruised. 50 will be immediately be treated with Arnica, 50 with sugar water, 50 with nothing at all.

That's the ticket. Don't forget to double blind the trial. There's a minor ethical problem, you may have to make do with accidentally occuring bruises.

To avoid both the ethical problem and the necessity to wait for people to bruise themselves accidentally, you could try treating bruising resulting from surgery.

Oh, hang on, somebody's beaten you to it:

http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/2/60

[bindeweede]

As a Seasonal treat, I popped into my crystals shop today and picked up the latest leaflet with info on courses, talks and workshops.. Again, there is an appealing variety on offer - Moon Magic, Learn Intuitive Angel Card Readings, Advanced Earth Magic Wisdom,. The 2-day Laughter Yoga sound fun, but not the £200 fee.

And this from Gary Mannion, who does seem to have been busy over the months.....

"Trance Mediumship" March 10th

Gary Mannion is a 20 year old established Psychic Surgeon, Clairvoyant Medium, Hypnotherapist, Indigo Child Specialist, Physical Medium, and Fonder (sic) of the A.b.e Healing. Tonight Gary will allow his Spirit Surgeon to talk to the audience through Trance. Gary will allow Abraham to use his voice and Abraham, through Gary will answer any questions the audience have on spiritual subjects.

Gary does seem very experienced and qualified for such a young chap. I haven't yet found out what A.b.e Healing is, but he might return here and explain.

www.isis-crystals.com still seems to be down, so this can't be verified, but I hope readers will accept what I have posted is genuine.

Oh, and the shop is up for sale, apparently.

Ah, here's the link..

http://www.abehealing.org/16.html

[GaryMannion]

Hi all

Firstly the person who asked me to produce tumors. I don't cut the skin and I make that very clear, hence I can't produce a tumour from the body. This is not the way I work on cancer (also I do not claim to have cured cancer which I also make very clear in my talks) I have had clients whose cancers have dissapeared since seeing me (even terminal cancers) however becauser it was not done under lab conditions I do not claim that the Psychic Surgery has cured it. You are free to draw what conclusions you want from that

Secondly the person who mentioned about blind test please give me more details.

Would also like to emphasize I never tell people to stop taking medication or seeking medical advice.


For the person who said they would rather get there advice from a medically trained profession Many homeopaths are medically trained and have doctor degrees so in most cases you are getting an opinion from a medical profession.

The person who mentioned they would attack someone who was making money from use of ineffective remedies. What you have not taken into account is that many people who turn to things like Homeopathy have suffered for ages, sometimes years with their problems and when they tried Homeopathy it either helped or completely cured their problem. That is why they stand by it and are commenting on this site for Homeopathy. I would fully recommend to anyone seeking medical or alternative help to look into it and get as much information as possible. Many people are made worse from medical science. So if you want to start saying about the mishaps that have happened in the alternative world by those not knowing what they are doing I can say much much more about mistakes and misdiagnosed problems resulting from the medical world. Also a lot of medical pills have terrible side effects which then lead to the client needing other medicines with their own side effects. How is that making people better.

The person who mentioned Isis up for sale
The shop is up for sale not because it is doing bad but because Phil the owner who works very much with crystals would like to do more with his work then being confined to the shop. However the shop aims to make sure that new owners will be keeping with the set trends.

For those who choose to insult the A.B.E Healing method please let me state this is a non profit form of healing. People can make donations if they choose to. Also training is taught again on a completely donation basis.

this is an argument that is just going to go on and on. For those who are slandering alternative therapies I would strongly hope you have tried alternative thearpies and are talking from first hand experiance because I have had the medical treatment so have many of my clients so I can comment there from that point of view. If you have not experianced then you really don't have an understanding of what you are arguing against.

Lastly what is this forum meant to accomplish those that came here believers are still believers. Those who came here sceptic are still sceptic. All that's happened is people are now insulting each other and what they believe. and we have got no more closer to a decision on either side when we did when we started.

Lastly for the person who made the cheeky comment about me being busy over the last couple of months. I have been thank you for noticing. Obviously something is going right if clients are still coming to me

Love and Light Always
Gary Mannion

[Admin]

Hi all

Firstly the person who asked me to produce tumors. I don't cut the skin and I make that very clear, hence I can't produce a tumour from the body. This is not the way I work on cancer (also I do not claim to have cured cancer which I also make very clear in my talks) I have had clients whose cancers have dissapeared since seeing me (even terminal cancers) however becauser it was not done under lab conditions I do not claim that the Psychic Surgery has cured it. You are free to draw what conclusions you want from that

You have no proof or evidence that you cure cancer but you want people to think that you can?

Seems like a fair conclusion to me.

I would say people's cancers may disappear for at least 3 reasons:

1. They never had cancer in the first place;
2. They had cancer but were undergoing conventional treatment which cured it but they misattributed the cause of the cure to your bogus psychic healing;
3. Rare cases of spontaneous remission. Again, the cure being misattributed the cause of the cure to your bogus psychic healing.

And, you don't mention how many cancer patients come to you and whose cancer does not disappear.

Time to look into your claims I think.....

[Admin]

Here's Gary Mannion performing psychic surgery: (source)



Looks rather like the way that magicians perform 'psychic surgery'.

The technique is to press the right hand down but fold the fingers back on themselves (like making a fist) whilst covering the view of others by placing the left hand over the right.

Gary, can you do 'psychic surgery' without covering your right hand with your left and would you be prepared to let us film you doing so?

[bindeweede]

The person who mentioned Isis up for sale
The shop is up for sale not because it is doing bad but because Phil the owner who works very much with crystals would like to do more with his work then being confined to the shop. However the shop aims to make sure that new owners will be keeping with the set trends.

For those who choose to insult the A.B.E Healing method please let me state this is a non profit form of healing. People can make donations if they choose to. Also training is taught again on a completely donation basis.

Gary, did anyone suggest the shop was doing badly?

Who has chosen to insult the A.B.E Healing method? I certainly haven't.

You say you are a hypnotherapist. Will you tell me which organisation you trained with, and how long the training lasted. This quote can be found on the front page of the British Society of Hypnotherapists...


Various hypnosis training courses are regularly advertised by individuals with entrepreneurial skills but with little or no personal history of successful hypnotherapy practice or any proven attainments in the field. “Accreditation” or “Certification” programmes are sometimes advertised promising therapeutic competence after as little as 50 or 60 hours training.

Hypnotherapy is currently an unregulated profession and terms such as “accredited” or “recognised” may be used misleadingly to suggest a meaningful external recognition or credibility has been granted to a particular course which may not be the case. There is no legislation from the UK government that regulates the standard of hypnotherapy training courses. Courses may be offered by graduates of brief training programmes who begin teaching otheres within a very short time after completing their own training, thereby omitting the extensive period of successful clinical practice necessary for the development of a skilled hypnotherapy trainer.

Graduates of brief and superficial training courses often report feeling inadequately trained once engaged in clinical practice followed by a severe failure to establish a successful therapy practice. Sometimes trainees will undertake several short courses providing them with a series of letters after their names but no solid foundation for therapeutic practice. Questionable academic "qualifications" and non-demonstrable claims about therapeutic experience or other attainments may also be used to persuade prospective students to commit themselves financially to a course.


http://www.britishhypnotherapists.org.uk/training1.asp

[bindeweede]

Oh, and Gary, my comment about you being busy for the last 4 months was not meant to be cheeky. In my original post on August 22nd, you said you were a Psychic Surgeon with amazing psychic and healing gifts.

You didn't specify being a Clairvoyant Medium, Hypnotherapist, Physical Medium, or founder of A.B.E Healing. I have no idea how you become qualified as a Physical Medium or Clairvoyant Medium, but you have done a lot in 4 months. Would you not agree?

[Mongrel]

For the person who said they would rather get there advice from a medically trained profession Many homeopaths are medically trained and have doctor degrees so in most cases you are getting an opinion from a medical profession.

And many more are not....

We could ask VBloke how much medical training he got.

[Julia]

[quote=GaryMannion;27710]
For those who choose to insult the A.B.E Healing method please let me state this is a non profit form of healing. People can make donations if they choose to. Also training is taught again on a completely donation basis.


Gary, you are missing the point. The fact that the A.B.E. Healing method is 'a non profit form of healing' is neither here nor there. Only a complete scientific ignoramus could read this: http://www.abehealing.org/2.html
...and not see if for what it is - an utterly nonsensical compendium of every New Age nuttiness going. If you are indeed the founder of A.B.E. healing (who was Abraham, by the way?) it is obvious that you do not understand the meaning of the word 'energy'. Fortunately for you, a large segment of the population ARE scientific ignoramuses.

As for your psychic surgery, I have to agree with other posters that your technique looks indistinguishable from that of the thoroughly debunked psychic surgeons of the Phillipines and the magicians who have duplicated their 'removal' of chicken gizzards, surgical waste and rubber 'tumours'. If nothing is removed why do you go through the operating routine in the first place?

[filippo lippi]

Here's Gary Mannion performing psychic surgery: (source)



Looks rather like the way that magicians perform 'psychic surgery'.

And here, courtesy of BadPsychics and youtube, is a magician doing precisely that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ha4gMiixtE

[vbloke]

And many more are not....

We could ask VBloke how much medical training he got.

Aha.

I can tell you without opening my textbooks.

None. I am a qualified homeopath and have no medical training at all. There was none required for the course and none taught during the course.

Fortunately, I have a cousin who is a doctor who was able to give me all the medical knowledge I needed when I asked him about certain homeopathic remedies. Most of the time, his answer was raucous laughter.