How might it be done?

[chillzero]

I am starting this new thread to discuss specific experiences which have convinced people about psychic abilities. The first few posts are from the thread about psychic mentality - how psychics fool / cover for themselves.

I remember this one guy - a Frenchman called Emile (I think that's the way you spell it). I was having a difficult time with my marriage and went to see him. He was very expensive and so we got straight down to it. He said lots of things (many of which, incidentally turned out to be correct but long after he had 'predicted' them). I am willing to discount all this and put it down to cold reading or something else.

However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

That's not a common name at all (will explain further if you want). We werent talking about my work or professional life at all. I WAS working for Rustam Dibash in London, but that was on a short placement from my regular law firm in another country. And all said and done, that name was VERY specific. (Not like a John or Richard or Julie, who I am sure, we all know atleast one of). Additionally, even though he asked me who this guy was (and he knew it was a man although you cant tell with a name like that), he went on to tell me himself.

This was 9 years ago and it has stuck in my mind and clear as if it happened yesterday (probably because it freaked me out). Honestly speaking, I didnt like what this guy said so decided not to pay any attention and continue what I had to to save my marriage.

Even if I discount everything else he said, he couldnt have come up with this name. (Pre-mobile phone days, I was carrying a handbag but no numbers or anything and I didnt have Rustam's name or number with me anyway). I remember it also because I've gone through this incident in my mind and been forced to discount all explanations like he could have looked into my bag when I went to the loo (I didnt go to the loo), he could have read my face(that doesnt allow for a specific name), he led me on to the answer (he answered it himself after asking a specific question based on a specific name).

Like I said, I cant discount that even though I want to!

[chillzero]

Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.

How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?



So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?

Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.



I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.

[chillzero]

At the time, I was willing to give anything a go. And I think I knew somewhere deep down that regardless of what people (psychic or otherwise) said to me, I'd have to find my own way.

Apart from that, I've always been a bit 'suspicious'. I dont know if that's the right word - the attitude was - let me give this a go because I have access to him and I dont want to regret it. Maybe he will help...its worth a shot. Or maybe wont and I'll have lost some money at worst. At the time, he made predictions that I'd have to wait to see happen (stuff like - you will have two husbands and the second one will treat you like a queen - the first part of that sentence is correct, and the second...eeerrrrmmmm...sometimes?? <IMG class=inlineimg title="<IMG class=inlineimg title="" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22">" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0>) So I listened to what he said with (what I thought was) an open mind and left it to life to show me how things would pan out - simply because his first sentence was 'you're going to have two husbands' which wasnt the response I was looking for.

Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.

I dont have a tape and this was 9 years ago so I remember bits and pieces. This bit I remember distinctly, also because over the years I've revisited it often...everytime I read something that might throw light on 'psychics' and the like. This reading has led me to understand about cold reading and hot reading and various other tricks psychic use and that's how I discount 99% of what has been said....if I can find some explanation of it (regardless of probablity) my mind will refuse to believe it (because I'm a bit silly that way - or maybe just sceptical...I dont know). But to be believed, its has to be beyond all reasonable doubt in my mind.

How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?

Ok, this is a long story. I was practising as a lawyer in India and my boss arranged a 2 week placement at a firm in London while I was over on a holiday. I wasnt taking calls at work (didnt know what the work etiquette in this country was and anyway, I just one person in the whole of the UK then and she was out of the country). The appointment was arranged for me by this person - a friend of the family. She had given me the use of her house while she was away in America. She knew someone who knew Emile and that's how the appointment was arranged. The friend knew I was a lawyer and I was on a placement but didnt know the name of the firm (and anyway, it wasnt a well known firm) and certainly didnt know the name of Rustam Dubash. Rustam was just the contact point. He did litigation and although I was in the same department, I wasnt working with him directly, although its fair to say that he was 'in-charge' of me and my main point of contact for those 2 weeks.

I didnt speak to him at all till I actually met him. I may have mentioned that I was alawyer and in a law firm. I know I didnt mention the firm because it wwasnt a fantastic firm and I wanted to be as cool as possible! Everything was arranged for me. How? I used to speak to the friend regularly and I told her that I wanted to see the psychic she had told me about. I lied to her and said I wanted to ask some questions on my job and career generally. (I didnt want to tell her that I was having problems in my marriage).

So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?

I've been to see many many psychics, astrologers and various loopy people in my lifetime. Partly because my superstitious family insists on dragging me along (and its easier to go rather than take a stand and say I dont care because of a weird cultural thing - will explain further if you want). Over the years, I've concluded that 99.9% of them are frauds and make stuff up as they go along. I havent found ONE PERSON who has made an accurate prediction about the future. But I have come across a couple of people who have said specific stuff they couldnt have known - and this is really specific - like the name and my relationship to Rustam Dubash.

I dont know if I made it clear that I am a bit of a sceptic and would, as a matter of course, examine everything said to me and really think about it. (Including inconsequential statements like the colour blue doesnt look good on you" and the like). So when Enile said what he did, I tried to keep an 'open mind' while listening to him. He didnt say what I wanted to hear but I said to myself - Forget it, lets see how things turn out. I didnt know whether to believe or disbelieve during the sessions because I knew that lots of things he was saying were general and were based on future events so I couldnt judge them instantly. And anyway, they werent to my liking. But he HAD said Rustam Dubash which was SOO specific. So I took the easy way out and said, whatever is to be will be.

Thats' been my position with all other psychics, astrologers and the like that I have met. I will listen and nod my head and then do what I want because I refuse to give control over my life to anyone else. I will do what I have to do and if they have an ability then things will turn out the way they have predicted and if they dont, then I've done what I wanted anyway.

Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.

I dont mind in the least. I am happy to be put up for scrutiny as I am as keen on the truth as anyone else. I have, to my bestest possible ability, tried to look for reasons how Emile could have come up with a specific name. I have gone to the extent of saying that since I am Indian (and look it!) he probably tried some random Indian name. But that's not true because Rustam Dubash, while Indian, is a Parsi name. Its not common in the least and very unusual even in India. Also, he gave me both the first name and the surname. Unusual since we all know how psychics would work in this situation (hmmm, I see a male presence...his name begins with R....he's very important in your life...maybe someone you work with? Or a boyfriend / husband?)...Enile didnt do any of this. It wasnt even in context as we were discussing my personal situation and I had not problems at work and Rustam Dubash was really out of the blue.

I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.

Maybe we can get to the bottom of it or maybe we wont be able to. But it would be interesting to see what explanations come up because at the end of the day, like you said, this incident exists only in my memory and if there's an explanation, the only one who can come up with it will be me. I am happy to be scrutnised. I am happy to admit that I may not have considered some angle or some way in which he could have got this information. The reason I can answer most of your questions is because I have asked them myself at some stage and discarded them since they havent provided a relevant explanation for me. I have gone through this a zillion times...I've tried my best not to embellish it with time or everytime its come up. I've tried to stick to what I remember. Inspite of it all, I may have missed something - some information that holds the key. Alternatively, there might just be something out there. I dont know the answer. That's why I'm sat on the fence.

Sorry for the long post.

[chillzero]

(missed one - sorry John)

Originally Posted by Ardbeg
However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.

Well Chilly's already alluded to this but did you leave a contact number when you made the call and was it your (then) current work number?

This is one trick they use. They'll take a contact number just in case they need to change the appointment etc. (unforseen circumstances and all that!!) but they will ring the number regardless.

If it's a home number they can pretend to be a marketing company or something and ask you a few questions or if you're out may even get a few details from your answering machine.

As for work, they may call and get the company name etc., and if it's not too far away, even go and do a fact-finding mission on you.

So, asking for a contact number (which seems fair enough) is a known method they use to discover background information on clients. Can you rule that out? ???

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

This isn't directly related to how he might do things, but why.

Anyone who provides a service needs to show that they are value for money. If you say he was expensive, then he has more of a need to make the big hit. He needs to do this to convince you that he is worth his fee, and also to maintain his reputation for future business. I guess a lot of business comes his way via word of mouth. He also needs to do this to create some sort of gap between his readings and those of the plethora of 'amateur' psychics such as tarot and tea leaf readers.

I believe that would provide a motive as to why he may be willing to go the extra mile to find out a bit more about you. In effect, he is putting in the work to justify his price.

Of course, this does put psychics in the seemingly damned-if-they-do-and-damned-if-they-dont't position. We'll criticise them when they come out with vague details obtained from cold-reading, and also when they produce a piece of specific data obtained through legitimate sources. But it is the fact that they do obtain information from legitimate sources occasionally which is the key to their con.

[chillzero]

At the time, he made predictions that I'd have to wait to see happen (stuff like - you will have two husbands and the second one will treat you like a queen - the first part of that sentence is correct, and the second...eeerrrrmmmm...sometimes?? (<IMG class=inlineimg title="" alt="" src="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/smilies/evil.gif" border=0 smilieid="22">) So I listened to what he said with (what I thought was) an open mind and left it to life to show me how things would pan out - simply because his first sentence was 'you're going to have two husbands' which wasnt the response I was looking for.

So, at the moment you have had 2 husbands. Statistically in the UK this is not much of a guess, and may become untrue in the future (although I wish you eternal matrimonial happiness, of course). However, at the time he told you this, it was too early to determine accuracy.

Many psychics work by making vague 'predictions' for the future, that you have to 'wait and see', because then you can't directly contradict them at the time. If you were quite young at the time of reading, instead of telling you you would have one husband, and risk the possibility that you have divorced from a teenage marriage already, adding another husband is a safe bet. If you were not married at all at the time, he can still convince you this will be correct in the future.

What is worrying is how some people would then approach their first marriage as if it was a predetermined waste of time; convinced that the prediction is true and that they will later find someone who treats them better than this first spouse.

I dont have a tape and this was 9 years ago so I remember bits and pieces. This bit I remember distinctly, also because over the years I've revisited it often...everytime I read something that might throw light on 'psychics' and the like.

Well, memory is a funny thing - especially revisited memories. You may be shocked at how much the event has actually changed in your mind over the years. I am sure someone can provide excellent links on memory fallability.

The appointment was arranged for me by this person - a friend of the family. She had given me the use of her house while she was away in America. She knew someone who knew Emile and that's how the appointment was arranged. The friend knew I was a lawyer and I was on a placement but didnt know the name of the firm

Are you absolutely, 100% certain that this never came up? When arranging where to stay, did you never mention that you needed to be near the offices of Such-And-Such?

I could suggest that your friend, or your friend's friend may have known this person you worked with, or maybe even Emile knew people who worked with you, but it seems a lot like fishing. It can't be confirmed anyway, so is only a suggestion. People do not live in isoltaiton, after all.

I didnt speak to him at all till I actually met him. I may have mentioned that I was alawyer and in a law firm. I know I didnt mention the firm because it wwasnt a fantastic firm and I wanted to be as cool as possible! Everything was arranged for me. How? I used to speak to the friend regularly and I told her that I wanted to see the psychic she had told me about. I lied to her and said I wanted to ask some questions on my job and career generally. (I didnt want to tell her that I was having problems in my marriage).

So, she may have mentioned that you are interested in finding out about your place of work, and there exists the possibility that although you never mentioned where you worked directly to him (as far as you remember) you friend might have done.

I dont know if I made it clear that I am a bit of a sceptic and would, as a matter of course, examine everything said to me and really think about it. (Including inconsequential statements like the colour blue doesnt look good on you" and the like). So when Enile said what he did, I tried to keep an 'open mind' while listening to him. He didnt say what I wanted to hear but I said to myself -

Surprisingly, this is a bit of a misunderstanding that is quite common. People claim that psychics don't just tell them what they wanted to hear, and this convinces them more about the ability. Whether you want to hear it or not does not affect the accuracy. Additionally, some people are really good at determining the 'right' thing to say, and this is not necessarily some nicety to make the client fele better - in fact often a psychic will confront a person with news they clearly do not want to hear. It surprises them; sets them on edge and throws them off guard for whatever is said next. Often it completely distracts people from watching their body language, or guarding a specific comment the intended to keep to themselves. Also, it creates a more visible reaction for the psychic to read.

I didnt know whether to believe or disbelieve during the sessions because I knew that lots of things he was saying were general and were based on future events so I couldnt judge them instantly. And anyway, they werent to my liking. But he HAD said Rustam Dubash which was SOO specific. So I took the easy way out and said, whatever is to be will be.

So, out of the entire reading, only this one little fact was correct. T his one fact that wasn't really relevant or important except in convincing you of the man's ability. Don't you find that suspicious in itself?

Thats' been my position with all other psychics, astrologers and the like that I have met. I will listen and nod my head and then do what I want because I refuse to give control over my life to anyone else. I will do what I have to do and if they have an ability then things will turn out the way they have predicted and if they dont, then I've done what I wanted anyway.

It's not the first time I have read what you have to say here, and wondered "why do you bother?". Really - if all you are doing is spending money to spend time with someone who's advice you will ignore anyway, what do you get out of it?

[quote=ardbeg;15723]I have gone to the extent of saying that since I am Indian (and look it!) he probably tried some random Indian name. But that's not true because Rustam Dubash, while Indian, is a Parsi name. Its not common in the least and very unusual even in India.[quote]
Many non-Indian people would not know this. The ignorance of other cultures in the UK is quite shocking. However, I don't feel he was guessing about, if he really did give you the full name if you recall it correctly. The alternative is that you misremember exactly how accurate he was compared with how much feedback you gave him.

Inspite of it all, I may have missed something - some information that holds the key. Alternatively, there might just be something out there. I dont know the answer. That's why I'm sat on the fence.

I think this part says a lot - you may have missed something, but we can never really know without a time machine, or amazing memory extractor. I am glad you are open to examining the possibilities.

[Ardbeg]

[quote=chillzero;15726][/color]

So, at the moment you have had 2 husbands. Statistically in the UK this is not much of a guess, and may become untrue in the future

Except that at the time I was not resident in the UK but was here for a holiday and my short stint at the work placement. Ofcourse, having said this, there is no way that Emille could have known that and may have been using a 'British model' so to speak to make that guess. So I agree with you, which is one of the reasons why it doesnt stick out as a 'pure' piece of info in my mind.

Many psychics work by making vague 'predictions' for the future, that you have to 'wait and see', because then you can't directly contradict them at the time.

I agree and Emille did some of that.

What is worrying is how some people would then approach their first marriage as if it was a predetermined waste of time; convinced that the prediction is true and that they will later find someone who treats them better than this first spouse.

I can safely say that I didnt. This incident happened in 2000 and I tried very hard for another 5 years to keep my marriage together but had to call it a day because of the emotional and mental (and physical) toll it was taking. I decided that on a cost benefit analysis, the cost wasnt worth the benefit I was getting.



Well, memory is a funny thing - especially revisited memories.


I agree. I have tried my bestest not to embellish to change the memory in any way. Having said that, there is no guarantee that I have succeeded.

Are you absolutely, 100% certain that this never came up? When arranging where to stay, did you never mention that you needed to be near the offices of Such-And-Such?

I am 1000% sure. Like I said, I didnt want to mention the name of the firm because I didnt want to sound like I was in a crappy firm (Truth be told, it wasnt crappy, but I was being stupid because it wasnt a magic circle firm!). And anyway, as a young person from a third world (!) country, I couldnt afford to be choosy about acco. I was lucky that I was having use of someone's house in the first place. And the house was in Clapham and the office was near Cannon Street (again an area where there are lots of law firms so not really easy tp pick a speicific one - and then a specific person from that firm identified by both first name and surname).

I could suggest that your friend, or your friend's friend may have known this person you worked with, or maybe even Emile knew people who worked with you, but it seems a lot like fishing. It can't be confirmed anyway, so is only a suggestion.

Probably. Who knows?! Although there was nothing to suggest that any of them did. In fact, subsequently, the friend's husband was involved in a helicopter crash and wanted to make a personal injury claim. I recommended this firm and the friend didnt seem to have any familiarity with the firm. Circumstantial ofcourse, but revealing nonetheless. Like I said, its definitely a probablity but highly unlikely since the name of the firm wasnt ever revealed to the friend in the first place.

So, she may have mentioned that you are interested in finding out about your place of work, and there exists the possibility that although you never mentioned where you worked directly to him (as far as you remember) you friend might have done.

True. Although, I am sure I never revealed the name of the firm to her in the first place! Assuming I am wrong, it would still be very difficult to zero in on a specific name within the firm considering that there were around 150 partners and atleast 6-7 of them had strong Indian connections.

in fact often a psychic will confront a person with news they clearly do not want to hear. It surprises them; sets them on edge and throws them off guard for whatever is said next. Often it completely distracts people from watching their body language, or guarding a specific comment the intended to keep to themselves. Also, it creates a more visible reaction for the psychic to read.

I agree completely and this is the main reason why I discounted everything else Emille said, although some of it did come true. In my mind, even though some of these predictions turned out to be true, I cant believe it to be indicative of psychic ability because the evidence was tainted to begin with. Except with regard to the specific name - Rustam Dubash.

So, out of the entire reading, only this one little fact was correct. T his one fact that wasn't really relevant or important except in convincing you of the man's ability. Don't you find that suspicious in itself?

Its not true that it was only this one little fact that was correct in the entire reading. As mentioned above, some of his predictions came true but because the process was tainted I cant bring myself to place reliance upon them and treat them as indicative of psychic ability. The reason I am inclined not to treat the bit about Rustam Dubash the same way is that -1) he did not lead me to it; 2) I did not mention the work background because it wasnt relevant and since he was expensive (to me at the time) I wanted to focus on my problems (on the personal front); 3) I did not mention the name of the firm or my contact person in that firm to my friend because she was out of the country. Our phone calls were basically to ensure that I hadnt set the house on fire or allowed it to be burgled, with the exception of two occasions, one from my end to request her to set up a meeting if possible and second from her to confirm that one had been set up; 4) EVEN IF he led me to it, I cant bring myself to believe that someone can come up with a name like that - specific first and surname and an unusual one. Also, having had experience of 'psychics' in the past, I knew that the pattern would usually be "the name begins with R"!

Really - if all you are doing is spending money to spend time with someone who's advice you will ignore anyway, what do you get out of it?

I can assure you that I dont spend money on them any more. But its taken me time to come to this conclusion and I am sure you agree that we each have a right to figure our paths our own way and in our own time. Apart from that, I thought I said in my earlier post that most of the time I would be dragged by my family and in Indian culture, its very rude to refuse elders (specially parents). So, if it isnt terribly important, I just go along to keep the peace. I'd rather save my energy to fight it out when the issue is really important and this one isnt to me. Its easier for me to turn up, nod my head politely and pretend to be accepting of it and then go my own way and do my own thing. My parents arent going to change their lifetime of habit even though I have tried to dissuade them. Some things just arent worth the fight. For me, this is one of them.

However, I don't feel he was guessing about, if he really did give you the full name if you recall it correctly. The alternative is that you misremember exactly how accurate he was compared with how much feedback you gave him.

Even at the time he mentioned it, I was SHOCKED. I quickly scanned my head to see if I had made any comment and can safely say that I hadnt. After I came away, I thought about it some more and tried to remember if I had mentioned to the friend. And then I tried to 'test' her to see if she knew where I worked and it turned out that she didnt. These are the reasons this has stuck in my mind. Honestly speaking, at the end of the day, it doesnt matter either way (but then, not much in life does at the end of the day!!). But it is the pursuit of truth and of knowledge. And I would like to think that in my life, I have done justice to that atleast in some measure.

I think this part says a lot.

That's true. I may have missed something and therefore, the info in my head may have been tainted to begin with, which allowed the mistake to continue all these years. If this was just one incident, I would have eventually forgotten about it. But it isnt. There are atleast a couple more which I find stick out in the same way. Once or twice can be put down to coincidence. Beyond that, I am forced to start looking at alternatives.

Thanks for your patience on this. It really helps to have a sounding board on this! Really appreciate your time and effort.

[Ardbeg]

I am happy to provide information on the other stuff I referred to above to anyone who wants to know. Like I said earlier, I am perfectly happy for my theories to be blown apart!

[chillzero]

Please feel free to continue this discussion.

I didn't mean to imply that you specifically had tainted your first marriage from this reading. It was meant as a general comment about how often people will make decisions, or act on certain information based on what a psychic has told them. I think that's a sad thing, and one reason I now speak so strongly against them.

I appreciate your candour in discussing this, and look forward to debating any further information you may wish to investigate. I don't think we can go much further with this one as it now basically comes down to your memory of the reading, your knowledge of the events prior to the reading and how you have examined it since. It's all too subjective beyond what we have already discussed. I honestly can't determine how he knew this name, but I can't persuade myself that it was though any psychic means.

[Ardbeg]

Please feel free to continue this discussion.

I didn't mean to imply that you specifically had tainted your first marriage from this reading.

Thanks for that but to be honest, I wouldnt have been offended either way. I know what you mean about people sort of sitting back and expecting life to take its course because of a prediction. I do have an approach to this. Its summed up in the little story below (you may have come across it and apologies for boring you if you have) -

There was a priest in this little village which was flooded because of torrential rains. Many villagers gathered in the church seeking refuge from the floods, comforted by the priest's assertions that God would save them. Eventually, the water entered the church and some people left the church and went to higher ground. Some merely moved to the upper floor. The waters continued to rise. Eventually, a few rescuers managed to get to the people stranded in the church and many more made their escape. The priest tried to dissuade them saying that they didnt trust God to take care of them. He stayed on, convinced that his Lord would save him. The waters continued to rise and they moved to the roof. A helicopter came by the rescued all the remaining people but the priest refused to leave the roof convinced thaty God would save him. Eventually he was the only one left.

The waters continued to rise and and the priest was carried away by the waters. He came upon a branch and people around shouted at him to get hold of it and hang on and they would rescue him. He refused, convinced that his God would not abandon him. Ofcourse, he drowned.

In heaven, he met God and was really cross with Him. He said, "My Lord, you asked me to trust you and I did and you still let me drown. Why?" And the Lord said,"You drowned because of your own stupidity. I tried to send help three times but you did not accept it. Its your own fault not mine".

The above rings true for me (notwithstanding the actual existence or otherwise of the God in question!), because regardless of whether 'predictions' are true or otherwise, we need to continue what we were planning to anyway. If we fall sick we need to go to the doctor, not ignore medicines and expect the 'Universe' to step in magically and cure us! That really sums up my attitude to this. Its interesting, but it doesnt affect the way I live my life. (I dont know if its just entertainment value in my lilfe - will have to think about it)

I appreciate your candour in discussing this, and look forward to debating any further information you may wish to investigate. I honestly can't determine how he knew this name, but I can't persuade myself that it was though any psychic means.

I dont know if it was psychic or not. That's why I am on the fence and not ready to dismiss it fully. I suspect that there are some processes which we dont fully understand yet. At the same time, I am pretty sure that this 'ability' is not as common as its made out to be, nor as reliable. At best, someone may pick out one or two small inconsequential things and that's it. the rest is guesswork and intuition. But either way, I am not completely satisfied by the arguments on either side.

[Matt]

Interesting that the friend who made the appointment for your thought that the consultation was to be about your work life and the one tangible fact that Emile provided was from your work life.

I can't speculate on what detective work the Emile did to discover this name simply because there are so many options. If you hire a private detective they'll find out far more information about a person than the name of the person they report to and with just as little to go on.

[Allo Allo]

How it might be done? Hmmm….

I have known a few “psychics” in my time. I have not known any that desperately scrabble about looking to find information about their clients before a visit – though I’m not saying some don’t. It would seem a most difficult and time-consuming effort – especially if you have several clients a week – or even a day don’t you think? I really don’t think this happens much because it’s hardly physically practical. So for me, it’s not a good explanation.

I think Psychicism does exist. I think it only occurs under certain conditions. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up in a laboratory. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up on stage, nor by seeing clients and giving readings unless it just happens that the conditions are right. I think trying to suggest it doesn’t exist is about as silly as saying Dowsing doesn’t work when Dowsers are used by Corporations often in conjunction with Geophysicists because it is quick, cheap and accurate.

I think science itself will eventually come to find a mechanism to explain how some things happen in the brain without a seeming physical explanation. I do not believe psychism is supernatural in any way – peri-natural to coin Dawkins phrase. In this category would fall ESP, thought projection, deja vue, premonitions, intuitions, gut feelings, OBE, NDE, presences, ghosts? helpful voices, and other experiences. So far, they are given psychological explanations, or magnetic field explanations. If a suggestion is put forward that science has still to discover a mechanism such as this or that possible theory, it is howled out of hearing by the derision of mainstream scientists. So we might have to wait for a generation of scientists to snuff it before any “new” theories are accepted…which is a pity for me ‘cause I won’t be around to see it.

How it might be done explanations are valid in many cases. The psychics making asses out of themselves finding Madeleine are the type of psychic we could do without – that includes all who use it to generate fame, status etc. Maybe they once did have a genuine psychic experience and continued on from there thinking they were “psychic”.

But how it might be done followed too literally, excludes the possibility that certain things are inexplicable at the moment because science hasn’t discovered how it actually IS done!

Well that’s just me……

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

How it might be done? Hmmm….

I have known a few “psychics” in my time. I have not known any that desperately scrabble about looking to find information about their clients before a visit – though I’m not saying some don’t. It would seem a most difficult and time-consuming effort – especially if you have several clients a week – or even a day don’t you think? I really don’t think this happens much because it’s hardly physically practical. So for me, it’s not a good explanation.

It's might not be common, but it must happen sometimes. It's a viable explanation in many cases - certainly more probable than the fact that psychic abilities exist. It is practical where there is a need. Psychics live off their reputation so if they can pull of a big hit every now and then, it will enhance that and their earning power. Of course I agree that most psychics are just cold reading as that is enough for their clients most of the time.

I think Psychicism does exist. I think it only occurs under certain conditions. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up in a laboratory. I think the conditions under which it occurs cannot be set up on stage, nor by seeing clients and giving readings unless it just happens that the conditions are right. I think trying to suggest it doesn’t exist is about as silly as saying Dowsing doesn’t work when Dowsers are used by Corporations often in conjunction with Geophysicists because it is quick, cheap and accurate.

Just because dowsing appears to be used by corporations doesn't mean it works. Corporations are not always rational, or rather some of the people in them are not rational. This is similar to the psychics helping police myth. Frequently mentioned but lacking in evidence. There are many reasons why dowsing may appear to work - sometimes it isn't hard to find water if you drill - but no evidence to prove it does. I'm not aware of a double blind trial which has produced evidence that it does work.

I know what I think when I am told that something exists, but only if you don't try to test it or examine it critically. It screams out scam to me.

I think science itself will eventually come to find a mechanism to explain how some things happen in the brain without a seeming physical explanation. I do not believe psychism is supernatural in any way – peri-natural to coin Dawkins phrase. In this category would fall ESP, thought projection, deja vue, premonitions, intuitions, gut feelings, OBE, NDE, presences, ghosts? helpful voices, and other experiences. So far, they are given psychological explanations, or magnetic field explanations. If a suggestion is put forward that science has still to discover a mechanism such as this or that possible theory, it is howled out of hearing by the derision of mainstream scientists. So we might have to wait for a generation of scientists to snuff it before any “new” theories are accepted…which is a pity for me ‘cause I won’t be around to see it.

I'm sure we will continue to learn more and more about how the brain works, however I would disagree that there is a measurable effect for some of those you list, so I don't think there is anything to uncover. Just from a very basic knowledge I've obtained from listening to podcasts and reading blogs, I thought that neurology is already pretty far forward with respect to understanding how effects like deja vu and intuition works.

How it might be done explanations are valid in many cases. The psychics making asses out of themselves finding Madeleine are the type of psychic we could do without – that includes all who use it to generate fame, status etc. Maybe they once did have a genuine psychic experience and continued on from there thinking they were “psychic”.

But how it might be done followed too literally, excludes the possibility that certain things are inexplicable at the moment because science hasn’t discovered how it actually IS done!

Well that’s just me……

It's pushing it to suggest they have possibly had psychic experiences. If you mean that they have had experiences they don't quite understand and have attributed those to supernatural explanations, then I agree that that, along with a certain level of narcissism, is a contributing factor to the path they have followed.

I don't really follow which things you think science needs to understand in the future, because there needs to be an effect to prove that something exists in the first place. And that simply isn't there for ESP, psychics, remote viewing, thought projection etc.

[Ardbeg]

Interesting that the friend who made the appointment for your thought that the consultation was to be about your work life and the one tangible fact that Emile provided was from your work life.

I can't speculate on what detective work the Emile did to discover this name simply because there are so many options. If you hire a private detective they'll find out far more information about a person than the name of the person they report to and with just as little to go on.

Hmm...interesting. Never actually thought about that. Although, as said before, I wouldnt say that its just the one tangible thing he said, but rather, the one tangible thing that wasnt tainted, i.e, that he couldnt have found out.

I am ABSOLUTELY sure that I didnt mention the name of the firm I was with or give out numbers of the firm. To start with, I was there just two weeks. During that time, I often thought to myself that if I were to be run down by a bus in London. no one would know who I was, where I came from, what I was doing there, etc. without first looking at my overseas ID!

[Ardbeg]

How it might be done? Hmmm….


Well that’s just me……

And me.....what you said makes a lot of sense to me and what I have experienced.