I was interested in a question Zaira raised in another thread:
Sarah's prattle, tedious as it is, can't possibly provide any valuable insight into the mentality of all so-called psychics. She is one person. Are you telling me that when you figure her out you will never feel the need to examine the claims of the next 'psychic' that comes on the forum?My interest comes from my background as a tarot reader and healer (now reformed). Zaira also asked about further reading on the matter of psychic psychology, and when I get time at home I think I have a few links that might be of interest.
For my own viewpoint, having been a part of that new-age psychic comunity in both Northern Ireland and Scotland, the psychology and approach is not unique to Sarah. There is often an inability to keep thoughts and information logically arranged. Thoughts are disorganised and planning is impulsive - altered regularly to suit changing circumstances. There's often a need to feel special, that people should view them as mysterious and gifted, and be in awe of their 'abilities'. This is what sits behind statements such as "I have given vital information to the police in case X, but I can't say anything about it just yet". If it was true, you wouldn't say anything at all - intrigue is a dramatic device.
I am happy to answer any questions about the transition from psychic healer to non-believer (I am not easily offended, so feel free to ask). I can't say "to skeptic", because even as a part of that community I always questioned what was happening, and how things 'worked', so I consider that I was a skeptic for all my life. I would like this thread to discuss aspects of that transition, or other aspects of the mindset of people who believe they have psychic abilities in the face of overwhelming evidence against it.
I can add that although I know other people who made the same transition as I did, these are aquaintances I have made on the internet since my belief was eroded. I had no companion through my journey and lost several friends. As far as I am aware, the people I left behind in that community are still involved in it, and they range from possibly mistaken as I was, through people with mental health issues, to those that clearly understand that these abilities are not real, but have made careers from ensuring they project a particular authority.
Hi Chillzero
I'm curious and you may have answered this on another posting so apologies in advance if you did. Was there a particular incident that "opened your eyes". I had always considered myself very open to psychics, psychic ability, etc. but there was a period of time when I consulted a number of different psychics and the numerous different readings i received finally convinced me that there was nothing out there other than con artists only too happy to part me from my money.
I have posted bits and pieces of my story before, but never really pulled it all together for anything more than reference within some articles. I might do so in the future for a longer article or maybe a book. Not sure - I am currently being interviewed on this exact subject for someone else's book, so I shall see how that develops first. (I only mention this to explain that I may keep some of my responses less detailed in order not to compromise this situation.)
There wasn't really one specific event that 'opened my eyes' - as I say I was always quite inquisitive and open to information. However, there was one specific event that led to me refusing to do any further reading for people. I did a reading for a friend, and partway through the reading realised that she was disagreeing with what I said, and also that the reason she disagreed was down to a little piece of previously discussed personal information I had actually forgotten about until that moment.
Now, when reading cards, if I seemed to be headed in the wrong direction, I would always re-study the cards, and try to work out what sign I had missed, or what I could be misinterpreting. Very probably I would consider anything I already knew about the person also, but this was not done as a deliberate part of reviewing the cards.
This time I changed what I told her to relate better to that piece of information. I don't remember if I conciously thought it through as doing such at the time, but within a few hours I realised that I had done so, and felt terrible about myself. I actually had a little argument in my head where I confronted myself about being honest over what I had done, and not just dismissing it. I had been learning a little about cold reading, and how to test psychic abilities, and quickly understood that this was the technique I had employed - albeit 'subconciously'.
That was quite a shock, and I felt unable to carry on doing readings on such a dishonest basis. At first I didn't trust myself to use only my psychic skills and not employ this newly discovered method, however it wasn't too long before I understood that the method had been there all along, and there were no psychic abilities at all - just a very efficient intuition.
Thanks for that. I'm always curious to see what triggers other people. I dated a man for three years who said he was "psychic". At the beginning of the relationship I was in a place where I needed to believe in something. It was only after three years of the scales slowly falling away from my eyes that I realised that not one bit of information i'd been given was "new" or had been gained psychically. Since then thanks to this site and many others I've learned I was just a victim of cold and hot reading.
Good luck with your story.
Hi. Thanks for that. You've been really honest and that's always the most difficult thing!Originally Posted by chillzero
I understand what you've said about an efficient intuition. And I must admit that I am at present, firmly sat on the fence. The reason is that I want proof of some sort to believe in the existence of psychic ability but havent been able to find any concrete evidence yet. Then why dont I just disbelieve? Because there are certain people I've met who have said stuff stuff that they couldnt have just got from anywhere.
I remember this one guy - a Frenchman called Emile (I think that's the way you spell it). I was having a difficult time with my marriage and went to see him. He was very expensive and so we got straight down to it. He said lots of things (many of which, incidentally turned out to be correct but long after he had 'predicted' them). I am willing to discount all this and put it down to cold reading or something else.
However, when we were talking about my personal situation, he suddenly stopped and said "Do you know a Rustam Dubash?" Without waiting for as reply he said...You're working with him and he really likes your work.
That's not a common name at all (will explain further if you want). We werent talking about my work or professional life at all. I WAS working for Rustam Dibash in London, but that was on a short placement from my regular law firm in another country. And all said and done, that name was VERY specific. (Not like a John or Richard or Julie, who I am sure, we all know atleast one of). Additionally, even though he asked me who this guy was (and he knew it was a man although you cant tell with a name like that), he went on to tell me himself.
This was 9 years ago and it has stuck in my mind and clear as if it happened yesterday (probably because it freaked me out). Honestly speaking, I didnt like what this guy said so decided not to pay any attention and continue what I had to to save my marriage.
Even if I discount everything else he said, he couldnt have come up with this name. (Pre-mobile phone days, I was carrying a handbag but no numbers or anything and I didnt have Rustam's name or number with me anyway). I remember it also because I've gone through this incident in my mind and been forced to discount all explanations like he could have looked into my bag when I went to the loo (I didnt go to the loo), he could have read my face(that doesnt allow for a specific name), he led me on to the answer (he answered it himself after asking a specific question based on a specific name).
Like I said, I cant discount that even though I want to!
Knowing what I do about the process of 'reading', and the transition from belief to none, I feel it is important to be honest, and help people understand each side of the issue. That way people can learn firstly how to discuss and disagree on matters without resorting to insults about dishonesty straight off the line.
I find it interesting that you want to believe. That's possibly an important part of why evidence has not persuaded you entirely, as yet. I see you have given a specific event for discussion, so I don't need to ask my next question.
Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.
How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?
So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?
Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.
I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.
Well Chilly's already alluded to this but did you leave a contact number when you made the call and was it your (then) current work number?
This is one trick they use. They'll take a contact number just in case they need to change the appointment etc. (unforseen circumstances and all that!!) but they will ring the number regardless.
If it's a home number they can pretend to be a marketing company or something and ask you a few questions or if you're out may even get a few details from your answering machine.
As for work, they may call and get the company name etc., and if it's not too far away, even go and do a fact-finding mission on you.
So, asking for a contact number (which seems fair enough) is a known method they use to discover background information on clients. Can you rule that out? ???
.
I don't want to shift the focus of this thread - and I hope people do ask questions of someone who's seen things from both sides - but I'm quite interested in a sort of 'taxonomy of beliefs'.
So, I'm just wondering if you could shed a little more light on certain 'categories' of the type of person who claims to have psychic ability.
I think it's useful as issues like this often get dichotomised so as people are either psychic or non-psychic and psychic is considered as simply one thing (they're all the same).
People will have different levels of belief, differing belief in their own ability and, of course, different motivations for doing what they do.
.
Good question, John.
I think what I shall do is take more time to draw up a post that outlines some of the people I knew, without naming names. I'll describe my view of what they believed, and how they acted on it, and also how they reacted when challenged.
Maybe we can get to the bottom of it or maybe we wont be able to. But it would be interesting to see what explanations come up because at the end of the day, like you said, this incident exists only in my memory and if there's an explanation, the only one who can come up with it will be me. I am happy to be scrutnised. I am happy to admit that I may not have considered some angle or some way in which he could have got this information. The reason I can answer most of your questions is because I have asked them myself at some stage and discarded them since they havent provided a relevant explanation for me. I have gone through this a zillion times...I've tried my best not to embellish it with time or everytime its come up. I've tried to stick to what I remember. Inspite of it all, I may have missed something - some information that holds the key. Alternatively, there might just be something out there. I dont know the answer. That's why I'm sat on the fence.Knowing what I do about the process of 'reading', and the transition from belief to none, I feel it is important to be honest, and help people understand each side of the issue. That way people can learn firstly how to discuss and disagree on matters without resorting to insults about dishonesty straight off the line.
I find it interesting that you want to believe. That's possibly an important part of why evidence has not persuaded you entirely, as yet. I see you have given a specific event for discussion, so I don't need to ask my next question.
At the time, I was willing to give anything a go. And I think I knew somewhere deep down that regardless of what people (psychic or otherwise) said to me, I'd have to find my own way.
Apart from that, I've always been a bit 'suspicious'. I dont know if that's the right word - the attitude was - let me give this a go because I have access to him and I dont want to regret it. Maybe he will help...its worth a shot. Or maybe wont and I'll have lost some money at worst. At the time, he made predictions that I'd have to wait to see happen (stuff like - you will have two husbands and the second one will treat you like a queen - the first part of that sentence is correct, and the second...eeerrrrmmmm...sometimes??) So I listened to what he said with (what I thought was) an open mind and left it to life to show me how things would pan out - simply because his first sentence was 'you're going to have two husbands' which wasnt the response I was looking for.
Do you have a tape of this session? Are you certain that he did tell you this himself? Perhaps he fished about a little bit more than you realised, and you filled in the gaps? I was going to ask about a workplace name badge, or similar, but I see that you have already decided that this was not a clue to him at the time.
I dont have a tape and this was 9 years ago so I remember bits and pieces. This bit I remember distinctly, also because over the years I've revisited it often...everytime I read something that might throw light on 'psychics' and the like. This reading has led me to understand about cold reading and hot reading and various other tricks psychic use and that's how I discount 99% of what has been said....if I can find some explanation of it (regardless of probablity) my mind will refuse to believe it (because I'm a bit silly that way - or maybe just sceptical...I dont know). But to be believed, its has to be beyond all reasonable doubt in my mind.
How did you learn about this psychic? How did you make the appointment to see him? Did you learn about him from a friend, perhaps at work, who may have passed on information to him? Did you call him from your office to make the appointment, where something may have been audible to him in the background? Or perhaps you discussed how to find his office from where you worked, and you may have told him then?
Ok, this is a long story. I was practising as a lawyer in India and my boss arranged a 2 week placement at a firm in London while I was over on a holiday. I wasnt taking calls at work (didnt know what the work etiquette in this country was and anyway, I just one person in the whole of the UK then and she was out of the country). The appointment was arranged for me by this person - a friend of the family. She had given me the use of her house while she was away in America. She knew someone who knew Emile and that's how the appointment was arranged. The friend knew I was a lawyer and I was on a placement but didnt know the name of the firm (and anyway, it wasnt a well known firm) and certainly didnt know the name of Rustam Dubash. Rustam was just the contact point. He did litigation and although I was in the same department, I wasnt working with him directly, although its fair to say that he was 'in-charge' of me and my main point of contact for those 2 weeks.
I didnt speak to him at all till I actually met him. I may have mentioned that I was alawyer and in a law firm. I know I didnt mention the firm because it wwasnt a fantastic firm and I wanted to be as cool as possible!Everything was arranged for me. How? I used to speak to the friend regularly and I told her that I wanted to see the psychic she had told me about. I lied to her and said I wanted to ask some questions on my job and career generally. (I didnt want to tell her that I was having problems in my marriage).
So, even though you believed he had a psychic insight into your situation, you chose to ignore the advice? I find that an interesting point regarding this as well, and it actually implies to me that perhaps you were not so convinced of his 'ability' as you initially claimed?
I've been to see many many psychics, astrologers and various loopy people in my lifetime. Partly because my superstitious family insists on dragging me along (and its easier to go rather than take a stand and say I dont care because of a weird cultural thing - will explain further if you want). Over the years, I've concluded that 99.9% of them are frauds and make stuff up as they go along. I havent found ONE PERSON who has made an accurate prediction about the future. But I have come across a couple of people who have said specific stuff they couldnt have known - and this is really specific - like the name and my relationship to Rustam Dubash.
I dont know if I made it clear that I am a bit of a sceptic and would, as a matter of course, examine everything said to me and really think about it. (Including inconsequential statements like the colour blue doesnt look good on you" and the like). So when Enile said what he did, I tried to keep an 'open mind' while listening to him. He didnt say what I wanted to hear but I said to myself - Forget it, lets see how things turn out. I didnt know whether to believe or disbelieve during the sessions because I knew that lots of things he was saying were general and were based on future events so I couldnt judge them instantly. And anyway, they werent to my liking.
Thats' been my position with all other psychics, astrologers and the like that I have met. I will listen and nod my head and then do what I want because I refuse to give control over my life to anyone else. I will do what I have to do and if they have an ability then things will turn out the way they have predicted and if they dont, then I've done what I wanted anyway.
Please understand, I am not attacking you, and I apologise if this is coming across as too personal.. I just wish to examine the details of an event which you claim convinced you of the paranormal.
I dont mind in the least. I am happy to be put up for scrutiny as I am as keen on the truth as anyone else. I have, to my bestest possible ability, tried to look for reasons how Emile could have come up with a specific name. I have gone to the extent of saying that since I am Indian (and look it!) he probably tried some random Indian name. But that's not true because Rustam Dubash, while Indian, is a Parsi name. Its not common in the least and very unusual even in India. Also, he gave me both the first name and the surname. Unusual since we all know how psychics would work in this situation (hmmm, I see a male presence...his name begins with R....he's very important in your life...maybe someone you work with? Or a boyfriend / husband?)...Enile didnt do any of this. It wasnt even in context as we were discussing my personal situation and I had not problems at work and Rustam Dubash was really out of the blue.
I will wait for your thoughts on my previous questions, as regards this. It might be that we will not get to the bottom of it, and as it is a single event, remembered only by you, it's very likely we won't. I also don't mind if this is split out to a separate thread as it more covers how 'regular' people are convinced of other people's psychic abilities, rather than how those 'psychic' people are convinced of their own.
Sorry for the long post.
Am I going to get booted out because of that extra long post???:-\
Absolutely - out you go!
Don't worry about it - but it would be a good plan in future to edit the quote so you only repeat the part of the post to which you wish to respond, rather than the whole thing
[ I'm following this discussion with interest, BTW]
[quote=Jocky;15709]
Don't worry about it - but it would be a good plan in future to edit the quote so you only repeat the part of the post to which you wish to respond, rather than the whole thing
Like this??? I'm terrible at editing so I didnt know which portions of Chillzero's post to delete. And I didnt want to be rude. But thanks...Appreciate not being given ze beeg shoe.
Like thatquote=Jocky;15709
Don't worry about it - but it would be a good plan in future to edit the quote so you only repeat the part of the post to which you wish to respond, rather than the whole thing
Like this??? I'm terrible at editing so I didnt know which portions of Chillzero's post to delete. And I didnt want to be rude. But thanks...
Its not my day! I'm a little more competent than this usually!! Honest!
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