Can you be a Christian Athiest?

[Allo Allo]

I've recently listened to a panel discussing "Faith in the Post Secular World".

One speaker defined himself as a Christian Athiest.....when asked an explanation he explained that he practised Christian Principles in his Atheism and he went to church because he enjoyed the ceremony.

It would seem to me you could be a Muslim Athiest too :-\

Could you?

[Mongrel]

I've recently listened to a panel discussing "Faith in the Post Secular World".

One speaker defined himself as a Christian Athiest.....when asked an explanation he explained that he practised Christian Principles in his Atheism and he went to church because he enjoyed the ceremony.

It would seem to me you could be a Muslim Athiest too :-\

Could you?

Did he elaborate on what the christian principles were? And whilst I find it odd that anyone would enjoy a ceremony like that there is a large social component to many faiths.

[Matt]

In as much as you can embrace culture without the associated faith I guess this makes sense. However I'm not sure how many christians would truly regard such a person as a christian. Of course there is the case of the anglican bishop who declared that he didn't believe in a supernatural god. I can't remember his name.

To a certian extent I'm a christian atheist myself. If I drop a hammer on my foot I don't cry our to natural selection. I celebrate xmas. I'm as familiar with the stories of the bible as most christians. In short I'm fully imersed in the culture of christianity.

[Cuddles]

No. A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Christ. If you don't believe that then you are not a Christian, no matter how much of the culture you take part in. If you do believe that then technically you are a Christian no matter what else you believe that is not part of standard Christian belief.

It is possible to be a Jewish atheist because the term Jew refers to the culture and race as well as the religion. It is also possible to be an atheist and believe some things that are often classed as religions, such as Buddhism. However, many people argue that these are actually philosophies rather than relgions since they don't necessarily require any belief in the supernatural.

I think I understand what the person means. There are many people who go through the motions of Christianity, and other religions, simply because that is how they have been brought up. In Britain at least there seem to be relatively few practicing Christians. People celebrate Christmas and Easter and go to church occasionally, but they rarely actually think about the beliefs that should be involved. However, this does not make them Christian atheists. Either they believe in god or they don't. The very definition of atheist means that you can't be a Christian. While the phrase does sort of get the point across it is very much an oxymoron and really shouldn't be used. I've seen the term "Sunday morning Christian" used to mean something similar, and I think it's much more useful.

[Legaleagle]

I am not even sure that it is possible to live within Christian principles. To take just a few examples:

You would have to excuse yourself from Jury service, voting in elections, or even gossiping with friends in order not to fall foul of prohibition on judging other people. Judgement of other people is pretty fundamental to human society.

If you do not store up worldly goods and allow your father in heaven to provide for you, good luck on skid row.

If you can't swear an oath, how can you enter parliament or the armed forces, you can't apply for a passport or many other types of licence or permit, many legal documents are forbidden to you, you can't give evidence in Court.

No Christians of my acquiantance go even remotely this far in their observance, but it's all there in the teachings of Jesus.

[Mongrel]

To a certian extent I'm a christian atheist myself. If I drop a hammer on my foot I don't cry our to natural selection.

I've never seen that as a huge issue, it's a cultural shorthand for "Oh brief exclamation of surprise\pain\fear\wonder\happiness*" and far more polite than (in your example) hopping around cussing up a storm.

*Delete where not applicable

[Matt]

I've never seen that as a huge issue, it's a cultural shorthand for "Oh brief exclamation of surprise\pain\fear\wonder\happiness*" and far more polite than (in your example) hopping around cussing up a storm.

*Delete where not applicable

Although to be fair what I do cry out is less often of divine origin and more often something intimately related to the propagation of the species.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Perhaps the speaker had in mind Don Cupitt and the "Sea of Faith" movement

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/mybooks.html

which denies a supernatural god but still seems to be Christian, in a sense.

Please don't ask " What sense, exactly?"- it's got me beat!

[Jocky]

A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Christ ... It is possible to be a Jewish atheist because the term Jew refers to the culture and race as well as the religion. It is also possible to be an atheist and believe some things that are often classed as religions, such as Buddhism. However, many people argue that these are actually philosophies rather than relgions since they don't necessarily require any belief in the supernatural ... I've seen the term "Sunday morning Christian" used to mean something similar, and I think it's much more useful.

While I agree that "Christian" when applied to an individual should technically connote belief in Jesus' divinity, there is certainly a sense in which the word can be used to refer to a cultural context rather than personal belief, simliar to the word "Jewish". The term "Christian Culture" can certainly be taken to embrace many people who do not personally accept Jesus as the Son of God - I was certainly brought up in such a culture and effectively I still inhabit it, in the same sense referred to by Matt above.

Also, I think that it is possible usefully to discuss moral issues in the context of the ethical content of the gospels, without necessarily having personal faith in the theology. You could call this "Christian Philosophy" I suppose, and I think this is the sort of thing which Don Cupitt is about (I have read one of his books, but it was many years ago and my recollection is a little dim).

The demands of creed and conformity which come with Christianity are mostly inventions of the Church in the millennia since Jesus' death: it is not necessary to believe in the whole edifice in order to find some points of value in its source material.

Perhaps the person who used the apparently contradictory term "Christian Atheist" was trying to find a label for an approach of this kind to moral issues? If so, I think this is rather different from a "Sunday morning Christian": I understand this to be someone who just goes through the motions purely for social reasons, without ever thinking about the content.

[Allo Allo]

Perhaps the speaker had in mind Don Cupitt and the "Sea of Faith" movement

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/mybooks.html

which denies a supernatural god but still seems to be Christian, in a sense.

Please don't ask " What sense, exactly?"- it's got me beat!

The speaker was David Bolton. And you are right! I found him here:- Sea of Faith.
Hes a wonderful speaker - a Quaker.......Are you Psychic?

[Cuddles]

While I agree that "Christian" when applied to an individual should technically connote belief in Jesus' divinity, there is certainly a sense in which the word can be used to refer to a cultural context rather than personal belief, simliar to the word "Jewish". The term "Christian Culture" can certainly be taken to embrace many people who do not personally accept Jesus as the Son of God - I was certainly brought up in such a culture and effectively I still inhabit it, in the same sense referred to by Matt above.

The trouble with this is that the culture does not come from Christianity, it has been adopted by Christianity. The same is true for all religions - they are based on the culture of the time and place they were created. We don't outlaw murder because the bible says "Thou shalt not kill", the bible says that because we outlaw murder. All of our morals and ethics come from society's needs, not from religion. Since religion exists within society it also has to be bound by those morals, but the morals would still exist even without religion.

Christianity has become so ingrained in our culture that many seem to think the two are one and the same, but that is not true. I am very much not a Christian and yet I have pretty much the same morals and culture as everyone else in Britain. If you don't believe in Jesus then you are not a Christian, no matter how similar your morals are to those of Christians.

As I said, I understand what is meant by the term but I think it is wrong. I am not a Christian and I object to being referred to as such, and I know many atheists, pagans and people from other religions that feel the same way. It is similar to calling people from the UK "English". The English are by far the majority and have had a major effect on the culture of the whole country, but I am not English. "English culture" and "Christian culture" are both the same - they are understandable, but they are wrong.

[Jocky]

If you don't believe in Jesus then you are not a Christian, no matter how similar your morals are to those of Christians.

I agree.

The trouble with this is that the culture does not come from Christianity, it has been adopted by Christianity. The same is true for all religions - they are based on the culture of the time and place they were created ... Christianity has become so ingrained in our culture that many seem to think the two are one and the same, but that is not true.

OK, so Christianity does not hold unique copyright on "Thou Shalt Not Kill", but it does not follow that Christian culture does not exist independent of the communities in which it is practiced. I agree that British Secular Culture and Christian Culture share many values, of which this is one; I was not trying to argue that they are identical.

It is similar to calling people from the UK "English". The English are by far the majority and have had a major effect on the culture of the whole country, but I am not English. "English culture" and "Christian culture" are both the same - they are understandable, but they are wrong.

I'm personally familiar with this fallacy of course, as a Scot living in England. However, I would contend that there is such a thing as "English culture", which is similar although distinct from "Scottish culture". Neither of these is exactly congruent with "British culture", although they are both major components of it. The error to which you refer is not in supposing that "English culture" exists; it is in presuming it to be identical to "British culture", which it is not.

To extend the analogy, I think there is such a thing as "Christian culture" - by which I did not mean the same thing as "British culture", "Western European culture", "Developed world culture" or any other more general grouping. I refer to a large extended community of people who to varying degrees use Christian literature, liturgy and art as a significant point of reference. There is no imputation that you personally are a part of it you do not wish to be - but it is a component of "British culture", "Western European culture" and the rest, and you would probably admit yourself to be a part of those.

[666]

... I am not a Christian and I object to being referred to as such, and I know many atheists, pagans and people from other religions that feel the same way. ...

Nice post Cuddles.

In a similar vein, I get irritated if, when giving out personal details. I am asked for my "Christian" name.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

The speaker was David Bolton. And you are right! I found him here:- Sea of Faith.
Hes a wonderful speaker - a Quaker.......Are you Psychic?

Well, perhaps I'm a little bit psycho...sorry, psychic. For instance, I quite often know what people are thinking if they start saying " The square on the hypoteneuse..." or " Eeny meeny miney..." Trouble is, the gift often deserts me for ages after one of these triumphs. So I am denied fame, riches and a TV career. :-(

Or perhaps I just read far too much. :-)

[Garth]

According to http://www.answers.com/topic/christian regarding the definition of a Christian:-

adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.

1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

The emboldened text could be interpreted as adhering to the principles and morals contained within the Bible whilst still not believing in 'him'.
So I'm still unsure how 'the speaker' would define Christian atheist. If I was Christian and dismissed Adam and Eve and later who begat whom as literal stories but more as symbolic, then I could accept evolution and be a Christian Evolutionist. ???

But it boils down to what individual people will pick and chose from the holy texts and how they want to interpret it.

I try to live my live by a decent set of moral ethic but I wouldn't describe myself as Christian Atheist, just a decent atheist.