Did Jesus exist?
And if he did, did he die on the cross?
My opinion:
A preacher called Yeshua the Nazarene probably existed. Whether or not he actually said and did the things attributed to him is more doubtful.Originally Posted by Zaira
It's plausible, as lots of people did at that place and time. There is no independent evidence for it though.
The evidence is insufficient to be certain of either of these things.
The jury is still out on whether Jesus existed or not. Let’s assume he existed… I personally do not think he died on the cross. I think he was simply unconscious for three days and then regained consciousness and walked away - and went to India. I think like all enlightened souls, he realised that he was whacking a dead donkey and threw in the towel. If that part were to be true then Judas was not a bad guy, he was in fact Jesus’ best friend, turning him in because he asked him to do so.
And the questions and the curiosity and the wondering go on.. And on.. And on.
Well, more likely carried away by his mates, since he would have been in a very bad way. This is remotely possible though - there are accounts of people surviving crucifiction.
Did Jesus exist?
Doubtful. At least, in the way that the Bible descibes.
Mithras - born of a virgin, remained celibate, his worship involving baptism, the partaking of bread marked with a cross and wine as sacrificial blood, held Sundays sacred and Mithras was born on 25th of December.
Horus - born of Isis (a virgin) around December 25th, demanded his followers remain celebate, Horus as a baby was laid in a manger.
Buddha - born on December 25th when the "Holy Ghost" descended on his virgin mother Maya
Hercules - born on 25th of December, the son of the supreme god of the Greeks, Zeus, through the mortal woman Alcmene.
Adonis - revered as a "dying-and-rising god" among the Greeks, miraculously was also born on the 25th of December. His worshipers held him a yearly festival representing his death and resurrection, in midsummer. The ceremonies of his birthday are recorde d to have taken place in the same cave in Bethlehem which is claimed to have been the birth place of Jesus.
Freyr - born on 25th December, the son of the sea god Njörðr.
The Romans observed this day as the birthday of the god of the sun, Natalis Solis Invicti ("Birthday of Sol the invincible"). There was great rejoicing and all shops were closed. There was illumination and public games. Presents were exchanged, and the slaves were indulged in great liberties. Remember, these are the same Romans who would later preside over the council of Nicea (325 AD.) which lead to the official Christian recognition of the "Trinity" as the "true" nature of God, and the "fact" that Jesus was born on the 25th of December too.
Wow! Some good stuff there.
So glad I wasn't just dismissed for my strange and wonderful ideas. Thanks folks.
I recommend "The God Delusion" for this, although no doubt there are far more comprehensive references out there. I haven't actually read most of it, but near the start there's a bit about whether Jesus existed and what exactly happened.
Basically, the person known as Jesus probably existed, but he wasn't born on December 25th (shepherds with lambs in the middle of winter?). He wasn't born in the right year, or the events around his birth didn't happen (Herod died before Jesus was born, yet he still ordered the killing of babies?). He wasn't born in Bethlehem. Joseph probably wasn't a carpenter, and may not have been called Joseph. A census wasn't ordered by the Roman emperor and people certianly didn't have to go to where their ancestors lived. And may more problems.
The trouble is, most the accepted stories about Jesus come from Matthew, and the nicest thing that can be said about him is that he made it all up. Not only does Matthew not agree with historical record, he doesn't even agree with the other gospels.
As vbloke has pointed out, much, if not most, of Christianity was essentially made up to make it acceptable to people at the time. Virgin birth, resurection, time of festivals and so on were all chosen because people already believed in them. Christianity was basically a way of letting people carry on believing what they already did, but putting them under control of a central authority.
One thing that is very interesting to note is that Judaism and the old testament are acutally polytheistic. The Jewish god is not the only god, he specifically says he is jealous and doesn't want people to worship the others. Islam also goes back to this idea, it is only Christianity that really claims there is only one true god. This is interesting because many of the problems brought up with Christianity, and especially creation, are not actually problems in the bible. For example, Adam and Eve are not the parents of all humans and there is no problem with their children not having wives. Humans already existed and their children married into other tribes, and even took over their cities. The Jews were always the favoured tribe, not the only one. Not really relevant to the question of whether Jesus existed, but interesting nonetheless.
I am skeptical about all the virgins......yeah right....
Besides, Jesus couldn't have been born of a virgin because there would be no source for a Y chromosome. The only way this could happen is if Jesus was a female clone of the mother.
That's a theory with many things to commend it. It may be acceptable to christians and skeptics alike. It allows a limited faith in certain biblical events without stretching credulity with tales of the supernatural.
What it doesn't have is evidence (or at least you have specifically listed any) and so I have to remain sceptical. (unless you can provide your reasons for thinking this)
The movie "The god who wasn't there" suggests that he didn't exist. Like Robin Hood or King Arthur there may be some grains of truth in the story with a real historical precident or the character may be a composite of a number of historical figures melded together by the vagiaries of oral tradition.
The truth is that we really don't know. This site disspassionately discects the movie with admirable neutrallity.
There is a wealth of evidence that a man called Jesus or the Aramaic derivative did exist. The evidence points to this figure being a revolutionary NOT a Messiha.
As a trained arch, I hope John will at least vouch for that credential, I will try to find links etc to illustrate this "fact".
There is one recorded piece of evidence to prove the reality of crucifixion, no others that are not textually based.
Yes I've read that too. There's only one case where evidence of crucifixion has been gathered. ??? There's a lot of textual reference to crucifixion taking place but if it was so common, where's the physical evidence?
Are there good reasons why such evidence would not survive?
And yes, Rose trained as an archaeologist. I'll vouch for you.
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This is amazing. I’m just relieved that I wasn’t kicked off the forum for my strange and wonderful ideas.
I took exception on another forum when I was told I read too much and think too much. !!
Sounds like a believers' forum to me
You can never think too much
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