Genisis of the Afterlife

[scroll33]

Right from the begining of spiritualism some 140 years ago and the popularity of the Fox sisters I think a huge assumption was made that still pervades the paranormal and paranormal thinking today. I refer to 'The afterlife' and the fully functioning post bological death society that is supposedly waiting for us when we shuffle off this mortal coil. However, (and this is where it all comes undone when confronting science) I think the cart has been put well before the horse.

Two questions need to be answered:
1. Why should their be an after life?
2. When did this after life begin

Humans such as we are have been here for the breifest of periods when we look at life's genisis but we are still part of that process and our roots go all the way back to those strings of protiens that started bonding oh so long ago. So at what point did the first life form (destined to be us) die off and find itself in the afterlife? Lets set out the evolution of life time table and see if one of our "gifted" individuals can pin the tail on the donkey.

Lets see, cobbling together 'a brief history of life I think it goes something like this:



3.8 billion years of simple cells

3 billion years of photosynthesis

2 billion years of complex cells

1 billion years of multicellular life

600 million years of simple animals

570 million years of arthropods

550 million years of complex animals

500 million years of fish and proto-amphibians

475 million years of land plants

400 million years of insects and seeds

360 million years of amphibians

300 million years of reptiles

200 million years of mammals

150 million years of birds

130 million years of flowers

65 million years since the non-avian dinosaurs died out

2.5 million years since the appearance of the genus Homo

200,000 years since humans started looking like they do today

25,000 years since Neanderthals died out.



So, where does the afterlife begin? what purpose does it serve and why, given the countless billions of other species that were infinitely more successful for a far longer period of time did they not get to join the club?


In all truth I think it's an easy one to answer. Human ego and the difficulty people have in imagining not existing. Couple that with magical thinking and a depth of ignorance regarding science and you have an easy to swallow fairytale that works much like a comfort blanket but one that is ill fitting and full of holes.

[Smiles302]

It could just be my experience but everyone I know who believes in the afterlife also expects their pets and other animals to be there.

[chaggle]

Might be fun to ask that on the Spiritlove Forum (http://spiritlove.freeforums.org/portal.php)

[DrS]

Right from the begining of spiritualism some 140 years ago and the popularity of the Fox sisters I think a huge assumption was made that still pervades the paranormal and paranormal thinking today. I refer to 'The afterlife' and the fully functioning post bological death society that is supposedly waiting for us when we shuffle off this mortal coil.
I accept this is so for modern times, but the concept was already there millennia before this. Hades in the ancient Greek epics is such a society, with a ruling king, queen, palace and full social structure modelled on real life. It has carried on through ancient Latin works, and in the middle ages forms the basis of Dante's Divine Comedy. It has never left us, and for such a concept to have such a pedigree perhaps seems to be a fundamental human need .

[Croydon Bob]

It could just be my experience but everyone I know who believes in the afterlife also expects their pets and other animals to be there.

Yes. Some of them expect their pets to be there but not other animals in general to be there. You can get into ridiculous conversations with them: "Dogs?" "Yes." "Rats?" "No." "Not even pet rats?" "Maybe..." "Wild dogs?" "No." "Dogs get in depending whether they were born pets or not?" "Erm... whether they were good or not." etc, etc.

It's a part of the way that all monotheists have their own personal god to suite their personal wishes. Their god would obviously let their pets into heaven, just not all those other horrid animals. Or, for some animal lovers, all animals will be in heaven, every fly and wasp that ever died. For Garvan Ellison rats are in but foxes are out because he doesn't like foxes so obviously his god will agree with him.

I've found that you can make some of these religionists uncomfortable by asking what happens in heaven when, say, the husband died aged 19 during WW2, the only love of his life goes on to marry again and spends 50 years with her second hubby, she is the mother of his children and the only love of his life. Do they spend eternity having a threesome?

[scroll33]

I accept this is so for modern times, but the concept was already there millennia before this. Hades in the ancient Greek epics is such a society, with a ruling king, queen, palace and full social structure modelled on real life. It has carried on through ancient Latin works, and in the middle ages forms the basis of Dante's Divine Comedy. It has never left us, and for such a concept to have such a pedigree perhaps seems to be a fundamental human need .

Yea I've considered the 'fundamental human need' regarding the afterlife and perhaps (as pointed out by many believers) the fact that the concept of God and an afterlife permiates all societies no matter how remote, 'belief in such or at least the unwillingness to accept no longer existing is written into our genes on some level, sort of a biological fale safe for the deep thinking ape. After all, dwelling on ones ultimate demise and relative futility in existance would not be a desirable trait when it comes to passing on our genes.

On the other hand it may simply be as I said earlier, Ego on our part :)

[DrS]

Yes, I wouldn't intrinsically disagree with "ego". One thing that's different about modern views, at least compared to ancient or medieval ones, is that the afterlife is seen as a happy place. This contrasts quite considerably with views of other ages, where people are destined, after death, to repeat endlessly what they did during life, or are quite literally shades of their former selves.

That difference, where we are now seen as continuing our living life, could well represent a difference of thought about the importance of humans, i.e. ego.

[Tony Williams]

After all, dwelling on ones ultimate demise and relative futility in existance would not be a desirable trait when it comes to passing on our genes.

Quite so. I mean, in a few billion years the Sun is going to expand and swallow up the Earth, and an unknown number of billions after that the Universe as we know it will cease to exist.

Knowing that, what's the point of getting up in the morning? There's only one sensible thing to do: :booze:

[polomint38]

It could just be my experience but everyone I know who believes in the afterlife also expects their pets and other animals to be there.

Yes animals with a certain level of sentience will be there, so dogs, cats, budgerigars etc will be. O0

But unfortunately for the UKS website on the other side, Croydon Bob (which I believe is also a haircut) does not fit into this category. :sad:

ETA: Obviously Cows get in as well.

[Croydon Bob]

Croydon Bob (which I believe is also a haircut)

It's a better hairstyle than the Croydon Facelift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_facelift).

I was watching Dave last night and Paul Merton offered Shane Ritchie a "Croydon Massage" (kick in the nuts).

[Harryprice]

Are plants allowed in heaven? And what about bacteria?

[Croydon Bob]

And what about bacteria?

Only the good ones stooopid! Weren't you paying attention? If they live in yoghurt and help women with bloating then they're good bacteria and go to heaven, if they cause nasty diseases they are bad bacteria and burn in hell for eternity to teach them a lesson for making me cough.

[panama]

Only the good ones stooopid! Weren't you paying attention? If they live in yoghurt and help women with bloating then they're good bacteria and go to heaven, if they cause nasty diseases they are bad bacteria and burn in hell for eternity to teach them a lesson for making me cough.

Brilliant! ;D

[scroll33]

It's a good point though. At what point did man evolve the ability to survive after death? When we were still simple protein chains in a primordial soup or perhaps when we grew legs and flopped gasping onto the shore? It's always the nitty gritty questions that seem to bog down the mediums. Wouldn't it be nice if those in charge of the after life picked someone literate in science to communicate through so we could get some of these basic questions out of the way, rather than picking Old Mable who is a star God bless but doesn't know how to switch on her toaster.

[Smiles302]

Or maybe people imagine death to be like sleeping, so you dream. Then you would have your own ideal heaven.

Though I find the idea of being asleep forever creepier than simply no longer existing.

[Harryprice]

It's a good point though. At what point did man evolve the ability to survive after death?

It is such contradictions that probably lie behind creationists' desire to do away with inconvenient evolution altogether.

[DrS]

It's a good point though. At what point did man evolve the ability to survive after death?

It is such contradictions that probably lie behind creationists' desire to do away with inconvenient evolution altogether.
I don't see it as a contradiction myself, rather that evolution is entirely unconnected with an afterlife. Man never "evolved" to survive death because evolution has never been a concept applicable to afterlife thinking.

[smudge]

I don't see it as a contradiction myself, rather that evolution is entirely unconnected with an afterlife. Man never "evolved" to survive death because evolution has never been a concept applicable to afterlife thinking.

Yes, but at some point humankind evolved awareness of self, consciousness, and imagination. I'd imagine this came along with inability or discomfort at the thought of imagining ones own lack of existence and so ideas of afterlife?
That poses the question; if chimps and a few other animals have a concept of 'self' (which I believe has been proved) do they also have any concept of an end to their lives? Or an afterlife?! Hmm...Surely not...

[Croydon Bob]

Wouldn't it be nice if those in charge of the after life picked someone literate in science to communicate through so we could get some of these basic questions out of the way,

Many great writers, musicians and other artists have communicated from the other side to create new books, operas, etc. Unfortunately they seem to lose their edge once they are dead and the resulting works are generally piss-poor; almost as if it wasn't the work of the deceased genius at all. No doubt scientists lose their scientific edge once exposed to their god's love, or something, and realise that science doesn't know everything plus other believer cliches.

[panama]

After the expulsion from The Garden Of Eden of course!

(Genesis 3:23-24)

>:D

[Harryprice]

Yes, but at some point humankind evolved awareness of self, consciousness, and imagination.

It is likely, though difficult to know, that non-human animals are not aware of the inevitability of their own demise. Perhaps the concept of the afterlife is a hangover from the time before himans became aware of their own mortality.

[smudge]

It is likely, though difficult to know, that non-human animals are not aware of the inevitability of their own demise. Perhaps the concept of the afterlife is a hangover from the time before himans became aware of their own mortality.

Yes, I'd agree that's unlikely non humans are aware of their mortality.
I wonder at what stage this awareness emerged in humans? And what other developments were linked to it? I would not be surprised if it was at a similar time as early language. The ability to have those kind of complexed thoughts must have involved huge leaps in other areas.
I find this area of human development mind boggling and endlessly fascinating!

[scroll33]

Yes, I'd agree that's unlikely non humans are aware of their mortality.
I wonder at what stage this awareness emerged in humans? And what other developments were linked to it? I would not be surprised if it was at a similar time as early language. The ability to have those kind of complexed thoughts must have involved huge leaps in other areas.
I find this area of human development mind boggling and endlessly fascinating!


Yea I would imagine it started along with other practices like living in social groups and the basic structures and ritual that made the groups closer knit. I suspect the gap that the death of a useful member of that small community left needed to be filled with 'something' and with the explanations that Animism (first religion I am aware of) brought were no doubt woven into that. I doubt that it was anything as complex as surviving death though. I do remember having a tour round a living archelogical site up here in Aberdeen and the Prof who was giving us an insight into early man in Scotland talked a bit about burial practices some 20/30 thousand years ago and claimed that in these small groups the dead were simply discarded on the bone pile.

[skbuncks]

Yes, I'd agree that's unlikely non humans are aware of their mortality.
I wonder at what stage this awareness emerged in humans? And what other developments were linked to it? I would not be surprised if it was at a similar time as early language. The ability to have those kind of complexed thoughts must have involved huge leaps in other areas.
I find this area of human development mind boggling and endlessly fascinating!

I wonder at what stage in a child's development that it becomes aware of its own mortality.

Hypothetical situation: Would a child/or group of children raised in isolation from outside influences (no communication/education/exposure to death) have an awareness of their own mortality?

skb

[Tony Williams]

I'm not at all sure that the more intelligent animals are unaware of their mortality. I recall reading of the responses of elephants and the great apes to deaths among their groups, in which they appear to be showing signs of mourning. Let's face it, they see members of their groups growing up, getting older and dying; why should they not understand that it happens to all of them?

Hypothetical situation: Would a child/or group of children raised in isolation from outside influences (no communication/education/exposure to death) have an awareness of their own mortality?
I doubt it very much. They would have to be living in a family group and observe people growing old and dying before they would realise that it could happen (until they grew old enough for it to start happening within their group, of course).

[smudge]

I'm not at all sure that the more intelligent animals are unaware of their mortality. I recall reading of the responses of elephants and the great apes to deaths among their groups, in which they appear to be showing signs of mourning. Let's face it, they see members of their groups growing up, getting older and dying; why should they not understand that it happens to all of them?


Perhaps. There is a difference between noticing and feeling the loss of a mate/group member and being aware that your own end will come. I'm not sure that apes or elephants are able to make that leap. I wonder how we could tell?




I wonder at what stage in a child's development that it becomes aware of its own mortality.

Hypothetical situation: Would a child/or group of children raised in isolation from outside influences (no communication/education/exposure to death) have an awareness of their own mortality?

skb




I doubt it very much. They would have to be living in a family group and observe people growing old and dying before they would realise that it could happen (until they grew old enough for it to start happening within their group, of course).


I'd agree with Tony's point. I'd suggest that this may be one difference between humans and apes. The ability to realise that if death inevitably comes to others it will certainly come to you too.

I'd love to believe apes and elephants have this awareness. I'm not (at present!) convinced, but happy to wonder about it!

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Perhaps. There is a difference between noticing and feeling the loss of a mate/group member and being aware that your own end will come. I'm not sure that apes or elephants are able to make that leap. I wonder how we could tell?










I'd agree with Tony's point. I'd suggest that this may be one difference between humans and apes. The ability to realise that if death inevitably comes to others it will certainly come to you too.

I'd love to believe apes and elephants have this awareness. I'm not (at present!) convinced, but happy to wonder about it!

Fascinating stuff.

I'd have thought that it's difficult to imagine anything a nonhuman animal can do that would count as showing awareness of its inevitable mortality.
As far as I can see, any such awareness must be expressed in language. If that sounds a touch precious, consider whether an animal can be described as worrying where its next meal is coming from. Perhaps? Now, what can an animal do that counts as worrying about its next meal but three? Or worrying that there may come a time when it can take no meals even when there is plenty to eat?

[smudge]

Fascinating stuff.

I'd have thought that it's difficult to imagine anything a nonhuman animal can do that would count as showing awareness of its inevitable mortality.
As far as I can see, any such awareness must be expressed in language. If that sounds a touch precious, consider whether an animal can be described as worrying where its next meal is coming from. Perhaps? Now, what can an animal do that counts as worrying about its next meal but three? Or worrying that there may come a time when it can take no meals even when there is plenty to eat?

Yes...
On the "meal" question; how can we differentiate between "worrying, looking ahead, planning" and "instinctive, subconscious" behaviour in animals? Certainly squirrels 'seem' to plan when hoarding. But this is instinct rather than conscious thought (I think?!).
Mortality; without language, short of observing apes building a church (which would be awesome and depressing at the same time!), I can't see how we could know.
I'd always assumed that these abstract imaginative thoughts (awareness of mortality, complicated planning ahead, lying) must evolve alongside, and be linked to, language. That may not be the case! Animals could, in theory, have these conscious thoughts without language.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Mortality; without language, short of observing apes building a church (which would be awesome and depressing at the same time!), I can't see how we could know.
I'd always assumed that these abstract imaginative thoughts (awareness of mortality, complicated planning ahead, lying) must evolve alongside, and be linked to, language. That may not be the case! Animals could, in theory, have these conscious thoughts without language.

It's pretty tricky, certainly.

One question that occurs to me is whether there is anything that a nonlinguistic human ( by reason of nonage or dotage or grave injury) can do that counts as showing awareness of his mortality — that is, a behavioural but nonlinguistic criterion.

And here I'm stumped. As far as I can see, what allows us to say that someone is aware of his own mortality, as opposed to being aware of something else entirely or just being a bit jumpy or off-colour, is that he says so ( or at least can say so if he is asked and chooses to answer candidly). It isn't so much that we don't or can't know in nonlinguistic cases as that there is nothing that would count as letting us know except our being told.

If that's right for nonlinguistic humans, then it's right too for animals. Mind you, I may simply be lacking in imagination about behavioural criteria.

[Tony Williams]

I'd always assumed that these abstract imaginative thoughts (awareness of mortality, complicated planning ahead, lying) must evolve alongside, and be linked to, language. That may not be the case! Animals could, in theory, have these conscious thoughts without language.
I recall reading various reports of great ape behaviour which indicate deceitfulness (usually to find a way of keeping a choice piece of food for themselves). I have also read of examples of altruistic behaviour (helping others to get to food when there is no prospect of immediate return - and even helping their tame humans to obtain something which is out of reach).

Both of these suggest that apes are aware of other apes and even people as being individuals like themselves, can put themselves in their minds and work out what they might want, and respond accordingly.

While I agree that it isn't possible to be certain, such an awareness of others does indicate that when they observe that all apes older than themselves grow old and die, then they may also understand that it will happen to them.

[DrS]

I agree TW. I was just thinking last night about Lord Muck's question of what nonlinguistic behaviour there might be to indicate awareness of his mortality, and thought there's quite a lot, really. What about making a Will? Buying a burial plot? Taking out funeral insurance? Funeral planning?

If one could find any such planning in the non-human animal world, we'd be well on the way to finding awareness of mortality. The one that springs to mind, but I don't know if it's an old wives' tale, is elephants going off to die in a particular place.

[smudge]

I recall reading various reports of great ape behaviour which indicate deceitfulness (usually to find a way of keeping a choice piece of food for themselves). I have also read of examples of altruistic behaviour (helping others to get to food when there is no prospect of immediate return - and even helping their tame humans to obtain something which is out of reach).

Both of these suggest that apes are aware of other apes and even people as being individuals like themselves, can put themselves in their minds and work out what they might want, and respond accordingly.

While I agree that it isn't possible to be certain, such an awareness of others does indicate that when they observe that all apes older than themselves grow old and die, then they may also understand that it will happen to them.

I agree.
As I said in post 18 it has been shown that certain animals do have a sense of 'self'. It is the extent of this consciousness that is in question.




If one could find any such planning in the non-human animal world, we'd be well on the way to finding awareness of mortality. The one that springs to mind, but I don't know if it's an old wives' tale, is elephants going off to die in a particular place.

I'm pretty sure the 'elephant graveyard' thing is true. But (I think) it is still unproven as to the motivation. Like bird migration and hoarding squirrels, there may be other factors here.
That said, it does seem that there is a questionable assumption often made that planning in humans is down to superior intellect, in 'animals' it is down to instinct!

I'm sure there is much work going on in this area of animal consciousness and psychology. An area I'd be really keen to explore further.

[DrS]

That said, it does seem that there is a questionable assumption often made that planning in humans is down to superior intellect, in 'animals' it is down to instinct!

Super way of putting it. O0

[Rose]

Interesting thread.

No proof but have had the experience of a couple of dogs on their way out and really think they were aware of what was happening.

As for the afterlife. I’ve given it a lot of thought in the past and asked many questions on forums etc. It amazes me what people believe about meeting people they knew and loved. I have even lied about my beliefs on the topic in order to comfort someone in serious distress. I have been meditating for quite a few years and I have come to believe that whatever we are and whatever we believe, we create it!

People explore ideas, religion, the occult, mediumship, spirituality etc. and settle on a rung of the ladder that most interests them and then develop it all out of proportion. I’ve been there. But I had a small voice in my head telling me that there was more and to keep going. Mine was a personal journey out of the darkness of child abuse and ignorance into the light of awareness and insight.

With meditation there is a clarity, an emptiness, an emptiness where everything is nothing and nothing is everything. There is a connection with everything, a wholeness that brings everything full circle. We are the creators, and we each create and recreate the world we live in and those worlds overlap creating this world and this planet. We are all in need of a mental tidy.

A belief in God and the afterlife hasn’t stopped us from killing each other. Maybe the truth, no matter how hard it may be to swallow, will.