Thinking maybe Wow!

[Allo Allo]

Scientists have to set up tests that rule out placebo and expectation otherwise the results cannot be accepted as valid. The fact that a human mind has to be so carefully removed from testing is an AMAZING confirmation of the woo idea that we can alter ourselves, other people and THINGS! with this power. Maybe there is something to learn here?

If complementary healing is only placebo – there is a real place for it.

John! This is really NOT good! Here's a quote from you on Re: Homeopathic Vets on Radio 4 Today 19/6/06 " ….. I don't think patient choice is a good idea - it boils down to completely unqualified people making medical decisions based on a belief."

If placebo/expectation threatens scientific experiments, how very important it is to harness it in driving a patient’s recovery process. Patient choice is something that could be an advancement towards healing and make them feel less powerless, not something that should be taken away!!!! If they have a strong belief system – use it! This is exactly how complementary medicine should work - one belief system complementing another. A doctor working with a member of a different healing discipline is using all the tools of healing that are KNOWN to work! If he expects results, that will be even better….. :D

Mmmm

[Admin]

The trouble is that your argument is based on a false premise: the placebo effect is not an amazing mind over matter thing.

I.e. the “we can alter ourselves, other people and THINGS! with this power” statement is not true.

The placebo effect is almost exclusively a psychological one. It does not heal organic illness and it is not a substitute for proper medical care.

This is one of the biggest misunderstandings people have regarding the placebo effect; they believe that it is a kind of mind over matter healing power. It’s not.

With regard to alternative medicines it can actually be a dangerous thing. The feel-good factor that the placebo effect induces in a person can actually mask the symptoms of a worsening condition. Remember, the placebo effect can make you feel better but it does not cure illness. A very important point to understand.

As for complementary treatments. As long as the patient is being treated with conventional medicine by a real doctor then using alternative treatments as an adjunct may help the patient deal with the psychological aspects of real treatment. An Indian head massage will do nothing to cure cancer, but it may help relax the patient and reduce anxiety.

The bottom line here however, is not assign magical powers to the placebo effect: it doesn’t have them.

[Allo Allo]

The trouble is that your argument is based on a false premise: the placebo effect is not an amazing mind over matter thing.

I.e. the “we can alter ourselves, other people and THINGS! with this power” statement is not true.




See Bad Astronomy…

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=34277

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1468236.htm

What do you think?


Michelle :)

[Allo Allo]

placebo effect can make you feel better but it does not cure illness. A very important point to understand.



Mmmm - sounds like skeptical inquirer article >:D - need evidence - where?

check out http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html
for interesting slant..

Michelle :)

[Admin]

See Bad Astronomy…

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=34277

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1468236.htm

What do you think?


Michelle :)


I think that supports what I’ve been saying. ;)

It’s been (tentatively) accepted for over 25 years now that it’s the release of endorphins in the brain that provides the feel-good factor of the placebo effect.

Endorphins (Morphine-like chemicals) also are a factor in pain relief and may also be responsible for the few cases where placebo effects do affect physical conditions such as swelling and stomach ulcers by interfering with what’s knows as the “acute-phase response” (a complex set of processes common to conditions such as swelling, depression, anxiety, etc.)

I’m not saying that the placebo effect isn’t real, I’m saying that it is mostly a psychological response and where it does affect physical symptoms the root cause of this may well be psychological also.

By psychological, I don’t mean imaginary!! ;)

[Admin]

Mmmm - sounds like skeptical inquirer article >:D - need evidence - where?

One reaches such conclusions because of a lack of evidence to the contrary.

To falsify my statement all you need to do is find a case of say hepatitis, leprosy, AIDS, diabetes, etc…

And show that it was cured with a placebo intervention.


check out http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html
for interesting slant..


I agree with that completely and again, it supports what I've been saying.

It's the fact that things like different coloured pills can have different levels of effect which actually shows that the placebo effect is real.

It doesn't prove that placebo effects cure illness though - that's the point I'm making.

[Aardvark]

I have read this thread and I would like to support the specific line that John is putting forwards.

I have spent the last 25 years working in the UK Pharmaceutical Industry with Professors, trialists and end users.

The Placebo effect is precisely as John has described in that a patient may recognise a short term symptom improvement but that this is not accompanied by a change in the disease process.

In medium term trials of analgesics where patients are asked to keep a symptom diary including a visual analogue pain score, both active medication and placebo can show an improvement in patient reported pain. However this is not still visible over a longer time and the placebo group reverts to pre trial pain scores and then may show worsening as the disease continues to progress.

When Testing medications it is very important for us to separate an actual intervention or drug effect from the placebo effect.

Again, part of a placebo effect is down to the close attention paid to the patient by the attending medical staff, surgeons, nurses and researchers. We often hear from Medics that in normal clinical practice they find it hard to get the same response rates as they do in the published trials and this may be in part due to this increase in medical attention, it may also be partly because if increased compliance by the patients to the instructions given in relation to taking the medication, completing the physiotherapy exercises where appropriate, or follwing the lifestyle advice changes that were given. This last effect is quite important in relation to diet, particularly if the objective is to lower cholesterol by diet and medication.

[Allo Allo]

To Aardvark - South African?

yes - interesting stuff you have said here...I know one of the theories of "placebo" is the extra attention patients get...I need to re-think a few things....and do a bit more investigation - I do believe in the power of our own minds - if you simply try SMILING when you are down - your mood lifts. Of course this is not magic - when the cheek muscles tense in a smile, it releases pleasing chemicals in the brain! I have no research papers to prove that. But simply deciding you will make an effort to lighten your own mood might do it too - lots of things happen to the body by the process of thought - including placebo.

But what about EXPECTATION - I believe that can bias the outcome of an experiment? I know this occurs in teaching....you CAN get what you expect!

[Allo Allo]

To falsify my statement all you need to do is find a case of say hepatitis, leprosy, AIDS, diabetes, etc…

And show that it was cured with a placebo intervention.



Yes - That's a real point - the "evidence" for CANCER "cure" is anecdotal usually - but if it is put up for medical investigation the answer is always "Well, it's just remission" - I do know people who've been in "remission" for a VERY long time! It would be great if 5 years was accepted as a "cure" for other healing disciplines as it is for allopathy. - Mmmm

I do think with aggressive stuff like what you have mentioned, you DON'T muck about with "Alternative" medicine when orthodox medicine comes in and aggressively fights it. Who would ever take a homeopathic remedy for a dangerous pneumonia when it can be sorted with allopathic drugs? or are you REALLY telling me there are people who would do that?! >:(

Just a point - diabetes is not "cured" by drugs - it's just controlled - same idea that wearing glasses doesn't cure short sightedness...


It's the fact that things like different coloured pills can have different levels of effect which actually shows that the placebo effect is real.

Yes - isn't this interesting - cultural they think!

By the way - have you seen the garlic, lemon juice and beetroot palaver regarding South Africa on the news?

Mmmm

Michelle :)

[brodski]

It would be great if 5 years was accepted as a "cure" for other healing disciplines as it is for allopathy. - Mmmm

can you point me to any current school of allopathic medicine? I thought that the allopaths disappeared over a century ago.

[Mojo]

can you point me to any current school of allopathic medicine? I thought that the allopaths disappeared over a century ago.

Here's one (http://www.ayurveda.com/). Even if they only have three humours instead of four. My local chemist's sells this stuff. It's right next to the homoeopathetic stuff.

And here's another (http://www.tcmschool.com/). Only the two humours here, of course.

[Mojo]

Who would ever take a homeopathic remedy for a dangerous pneumonia when it can be sorted with allopathic drugs? or are you REALLY telling me there are people who would do that?! >:(

Did you see the thing on Newsnight about homoeopaths recommending their remedies to prevent malaria? There are plenty of homoeopaths who will tell you that all orthodox medicine is bad because it makes conditions worse by "supressing" the symptoms.

[Allo Allo]

can you point me to any current school of allopathic medicine? I thought that the allopaths disappeared over a century ago.



I'ts much more succinct than - conventional medicine, Western medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical medicine, scientific medicine, regular medicine, mainstream medicine, standard medicine, orthodox medicine, and authoritarian medicine. (love the last one!!) ;)

And it's STILL acceptable! :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopathic_medicine

Michelle

[Allo Allo]

Did you see the thing on Newsnight about homoeopaths recommending their remedies to prevent malaria? There are plenty of homoeopaths who will tell you that all orthodox medicine is bad because it makes conditions worse by "supressing" the symptoms.


I see the problem as being everyone thinks only THEY are right! It is true is it not that conventional medicine, Western medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical medicine, scientific medicine, regular medicine, mainstream medicine, standard medicine, orthodox medicine, and authoritarian medicine has a less subtle way of treating the body but investigating other healing disciplines might make it more effective than it is - especially in areas where it is not effective!

Other systems should not be so scoffed at in case you are chucking the baby out with the bathwater!

If conventional medicine, Western medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical medicine, scientific medicine, regular medicine, mainstream medicine, standard medicine, orthodox medicine, and authoritarian medicine does this - they might find themselves literally left behind - this would be a pity.

I know very little about chinese medicine - what two humours would they have - Yin and Yang? These forces are there, whether you want to scoff or not... >:(

Michelle :)

[Mojo]

I see the problem as being everyone thinks only THEY are right! It is true is it not that conventional medicine, Western medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical medicine, scientific medicine, regular medicine, mainstream medicine, standard medicine, orthodox medicine, and authoritarian medicine has a less subtle way of treating the body but investigating other healing disciplines might make it more effective than it is - especially in areas where it is not effective!What exactly do you mean by "less subtle"?


Other systems should not be so scoffed at in case you are chucking the baby out with the bathwater! No, they should be tested to see whether or not they actually work. As long as this wouldn't make the ones that work too evidence-based for your liking, of course.


If conventional medicine, Western medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical medicine, scientific medicine, regular medicine, mainstream medicine, standard medicine, orthodox medicine, and authoritarian medicine does this - they might find themselves literally left behind - this would be a pity. And if certain treatments can't be demonstrated to work, they should be left behind.


I know very little about chinese medicine - what two humours would they have - Yin and Yang? That's them, yes.
These forces are there, whether you want to scoff or not... >:( Can you provide any evidence for their existence? Forces can generally be measured pretty easily.

[Allo Allo]

Subtle means slight, delicate, faint, restrained, fine, understated, elusive, insubstantial not obvious.

In Ayur Veda, the whole concept of doshas and the reading of the pulses is a SUBTLE idea and the training is long and hard. It can be learned and is not intuited – it’s a diagnostic tool. Unfortunately it has been “new aged”. Illness is treated by altering lifestyle and the food you eat – an idea practised by autocratic medicine too! The doshas are not humours! ;D Ha ha!

To me “Subtle” means that behind “obvious” we will find that which is NOT obvious. Autocratic science and medicine study that which is obvious. This is a limitation.

The conclusion about homeopathy has not yet been reached. Homeopathy is being tested for “obvious” – and scientific method can only do that because it is limited to only testing the obvious. Another way of putting it I suppose is “effects” is different to “effectiveness” – I have trawled through loads of tests on homeopathic versus drugs trials – in the ones I found drugs, placebo and homeopathy all scored very similarly. The “effectiveness” trial would see whether after five years those conditions were still being controlled by drugs, placebo or homeopathy or whether those people had been “cured”. Drugs control diabetes – they do not cure it. Ayur Veda or homeopathy or Chinese medicine MIGHT in some way “cure” rather than “control”. I am skeptical enough to pause before sneering.

Other healing disciplines have concepts about maintaining physical robustness that seem odd to the orthodox medical mind because the orthodox mind has been churned out of the orthodox mind machine. Perhaps homeopathic ideas about “suppression”, or the ayurvedic diagnoses of vitiated doshas, or the flow of opposing yet complementary yin/yang would contribute to mainstream medical progress in areas where many perceive it as wanting.

The trouble is that once you get into the idea that being a skeptic means accepting all that is scientifically supported, then you are no skeptic because you are prejudiced (not to mention dogmatic)! I have already posted reasons why some scientific testing has to be skeptically appraised.

“Skepticism - A mind open to new ideas, lacking in prejudice, not dogmatic.”
John Jackson © 2004. (I know - out of context - because you then extrapolated)

When autocratic science can test for subtle THEN we will advance – till then – we are limited. This idea brings humility.

The other point that should bring humility is that with all our scientific brilliance!! statistics indicate we are not more healthy…(please don’t tell me it’s because we diagnose better.)

Positive/negative is a scientific term I could think of for yin/yang ^-^

Michelle :)

[Mojo]

Subtle means slight, delicate, faint, restrained, fine, understated, elusive, insubstantial not obvious. In other words, CAM doesn't appear to do much.


The conclusion about homeopathy has not yet been reached. Homeopathy is being tested for “obvious” – and scientific method can only do that because it is limited to only testing the obvious. Another way of putting it I suppose is “effects” is different to “effectiveness” – I have trawled through loads of tests on homeopathic versus drugs trials – in the ones I found drugs, placebo and homeopathy all scored very similarly. In which case we can draw the conclusion that neither the drugs nor the homoeopathy were effective. Do you have any references for these tests, by the way?

[Allo Allo]

In other words, CAM doesn't appear to do much.
In which case we can draw the conclusion that neither the drugs nor the homoeopathy were effective. Do you have any references for these tests, by the way?


What does CAM mean?

Some of many more here:-

http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi%3Fcmd%3DRetrieve%26db%3DPubMed%26list_u ids%3D2667526%26dopt%3DCitation

http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi%3Fcmd%3DRetrieve%26db%3DPubMed%26list_u ids%3D16815512%26dopt%3DCitation

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/3/293

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=34803

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=retrieve&dopt=abstract&list_uids=10853874

interesting here - http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/139/8/702.pdf


bed time now!

Michelle :)

[Cuddles]

To me “Subtle” means that behind “obvious” we will find that which is NOT obvious. Autocratic science and medicine study that which is obvious. This is a limitation.

Science studies things that exist. If a medicine has an effect, scientific medicine can, and will, study it. If a school of alternative medicine produces "subtle" effects that can't be studied scientifically this only means that the effects don't exist. Most CAM (Complementary and Alterntaive Medicine) has not shown any evidence of any effect, subtle or otherwise, and so no-one sees any need to research them. Many, such as homeopathy, have been studied extensively and shown to have no effect.


The conclusion about homeopathy has not yet been reached. Homeopathy is being tested for “obvious” – and scientific method can only do that because it is limited to only testing the obvious. Another way of putting it I suppose is “effects” is different to “effectiveness” – I have trawled through loads of tests on homeopathic versus drugs trials – in the ones I found drugs, placebo and homeopathy all scored very similarly. The “effectiveness” trial would see whether after five years those conditions were still being controlled by drugs, placebo or homeopathy or whether those people had been “cured”. Drugs control diabetes – they do not cure it. Ayur Veda or homeopathy or Chinese medicine MIGHT in some way “cure” rather than “control”. I am skeptical enough to pause before sneering.

Homeopathy has been studied and a conclusion reached. It doesn't work. I still don#t understand your claims about "obvious" and "subtle" effects. Either the patient gets better (or at least doesn't get worse), or they don't. Either the treatment does something, or it doesn't. No matter how "subtle" a treament's effects are, if they exist they can be observed.


Other healing disciplines have concepts about maintaining physical robustness that seem odd to the orthodox medical mind because the orthodox mind has been churned out of the orthodox mind machine. Perhaps homeopathic ideas about “suppression”, or the ayurvedic diagnoses of vitiated doshas, or the flow of opposing yet complementary yin/yang would contribute to mainstream medical progress in areas where many perceive it as wanting.

The trouble is that once you get into the idea that being a skeptic means accepting all that is scientifically supported, then you are no skeptic because you are prejudiced (not to mention dogmatic)! I have already posted reasons why some scientific testing has to be skeptically appraised.

“Skepticism - A mind open to new ideas, lacking in prejudice, not dogmatic.”
John Jackson © 2004. (I know - out of context - because you then extrapolated)

All scientific testing is skeptically appraised. That's what science means. Accepting all that is scientifically supported is the exact opposite of prejudice and dogma. There is no "orthodox mind machine". Accepting things that have been shown to work and rejecting those that have been shown not to work is not prejudice, it is common sense. Yes, there are things we don't understand yet, but that does not mean accepting every wild claim. Unless those claims have any evidence to support them they will be ignored.


When autocratic science can test for subtle THEN we will advance – till then – we are limited. This idea brings humility.

The other point that should bring humility is that with all our scientific brilliance!! statistics indicate we are not more healthy…(please don’t tell me it’s because we diagnose better.)

Positive/negative is a scientific term I could think of for yin/yang ^-^

Michelle :)

Not more healthy than what? Whose statistics are those? Not more healthy than a couple of centuries ago when infant mortality was several times higher and life expectancy was around middle age? Not more healthy than sub-Saharan Africa with life expectancy of 35 and 40% incidence of AIDS? What definition of healthy is this?

[Allo Allo]

Hello Cuddles, :wavey:

I think I ought to say that I am not much interested in homeopathy, or any other as you call it “alternative” discipline and I think modern western medicine is wonderful – it has saved MY life on several occasions. I do think that there are invisible things that cannot yet be “tested” by scientific method until it has the ability to do so. Of these I am suggesting fine emanations from living things – fields that are not yet measurable. We do not know how these affect health. But they may do.

Some modern methods of treating a sick body are VERY un-subtle and can have uncomfortable side effects. The idea that SOMETHING useful might be learned from different disciplines less violent than mainstream medicine is not a silly one. I know I have read in the viral clinical trial (somewhere in the links of previous post) that when homeopathy was given, patients needed LESS OF A DRUG. This would be better for someone who was on strong orthodox drug treatment…these things have NOT been followed through yet….but they are ideas that might lead to different and better medication – and comfort for the patient.

“Science studies things that exist. If a medicine has an effect, scientific medicine can, and will, study it. If a school of alternative medicine produces "subtle" effects that can't be studied scientifically this only means that the effects don't exist.”

OK! True. Science needs to study whether healing can be more effective using an integrative principle. A simple example from everyday life is that cuddles are therapeutic – how do you test that? Also, the cuddler’s relationship with a sick person is important – some cuddles are more therapeutic than others! Some healing disciplines donate more time, touching and attention to the sick than is often available in a modern hospital – what is SO terribly threatening to you about that? If a healing TEAM works better we should use it!

“Either the treatment does something, or it doesn't. No matter how "subtle" a treatment’s effects are, if they exist they can be observed.”

OK! They exist – so let’s observe!

“Yes, there are things we don't understand yet, but that does not mean accepting every wild claim. Unless those claims have any evidence to support them they will be ignored.”

OK! I Agree. I have not made any claims, wild or other. I am simply slogging on with the point that everyone should stop slagging each other off and try to work together – if we all shout then we can’t hear anything! Also, there are healing disciplines and there is “New Age” stuff. There is a VAST difference.

Not more healthy than what? Whose statistics are those? Not more healthy than a couple of centuries ago when infant mortality was several times higher and life expectancy was around middle age? Not more healthy than sub-Saharan Africa with life expectancy of 35 and 40% incidence of AIDS? What definition of healthy is this?

Accepted of course! Absolutely!


What we have facing us is a host of OTHER stuff!


Irregular heart beats - increase – cause unknown – maybe air pollution
Alzheimer’s - increase – cause under discussion
Cancer – increase – cause under discussion
Stress, anxiety, increase – cause “stress”
Hearing voices, increase - cause?
Breakdown – increase – cause “stress”
Suicide – increase - cause “stress”
Drug addiction – increase – cause unknown
Diabetes - increase – cause “food related”
Epilepsy - increase – cause under discussion
Autism - increase – cause under discussion
Asthma - increase – cause under discussion
Allergies - increase – cause under discussion
Disabilities – increase – reason - brilliant orthodox intervention
Left handedness - increase – cause unknown – ultrasound suggested
Hearing loss in the young - increase – cause – ipods etc volume of sound
Violence – increase – cause under discussion
Unhappiness – increase – cause under discussion

Can’t offhand think of anything more…….braindead! Cure? I'll watch a movie!


Michelle :)

[Mojo]

I have not made any claims, wild or other.


The fact that a human mind has to be so carefully removed from testing is an AMAZING confirmation of the woo idea that we can alter ourselves, other people and THINGS! with this power.

...

These forces are there, whether you want to scoff or not...

...

Autocratic science and medicine study that which is obvious. This is a limitation.

...

When autocratic science can test for subtle THEN we will advance – till then – we are limited.


And here's another one:
What we have facing us is a host of OTHER stuff!


Irregular heart beats - increase – cause unknown – maybe air pollution
Alzheimer’s - increase – cause under discussion
Cancer – increase – cause under discussion
Stress, anxiety, increase – cause “stress”
Hearing voices, increase - cause?
Breakdown – increase – cause “stress”
Suicide – increase - cause “stress”
Drug addiction – increase – cause unknown
Diabetes - increase – cause “food related”
Epilepsy - increase – cause under discussion
Autism - increase – cause under discussion
Asthma - increase – cause under discussion
Allergies - increase – cause under discussion
Disabilities – increase – reason - brilliant orthodox intervention
Left handedness - increase – cause unknown – ultrasound suggested
Hearing loss in the young - increase – cause – ipods etc volume of sound
Violence – increase – cause under discussion
Unhappiness – increase – cause under discussion

[Mojo]

When autocratic science can test for subtle THEN we will advance – till then – we are limited.
The ironic thing about the implicit claim here that science can't "test for subtle" is that while science actually can measure very subtle effects, by controlling for other factors to eliminate "noise", subtle effects are going to be next to impossible to observe by the kind of anecdotal approach preferred by proponents of therapies that invoke "subtle" effects.

[Admin]

When autocratic science can test for subtle THEN we will advance – till then – we are limited.

There's no such thing as 'autocratic science'. It just looks like a term invented to belittle science (rather like the stupid term 'allopathy' that is used out of context by Woos) rather than have any real meaning.

As for subtle...

Science can detect neutrinos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino), particles that hardly interact with matter at all. Science can detect the spin of a single electron.

They are subtle effects and science manages quite well. So how can science not detect Yin and Yang, the Vital Force, Innate Intelligence, Prana, new-age 'energies', etc.?

Perhaps they don't really exist. ;)

Now, it's one thing to say that they are too subtle to be detected, but if that's so, what reason is there to suppose they exist? (other than wishful thinking of course).

[Cuddles]

Irregular heart beats - increase – cause unknown – maybe air pollution
Alzheimer’s - increase – cause under discussion
Cancer – increase – cause under discussion
Stress, anxiety, increase – cause “stress”
Hearing voices, increase - cause?
Breakdown – increase – cause “stress”
Suicide – increase - cause “stress”
Drug addiction – increase – cause unknown
Diabetes - increase – cause “food related”
Epilepsy - increase – cause under discussion
Autism - increase – cause under discussion
Asthma - increase – cause under discussion
Allergies - increase – cause under discussion
Disabilities – increase – reason - brilliant orthodox intervention
Left handedness - increase – cause unknown – ultrasound suggested
Hearing loss in the young - increase – cause – ipods etc volume of sound
Violence – increase – cause under discussion
Unhappiness – increase – cause under discussion

I would be interested to see any evidence to back up the claim that these have all increased compared to say 150 years ago.

Irregular heart beats - High fat diet, not enough exercise. One of the few things I haven't heard blamed on pollution.
Alzheimer's - As you say, under discussion. The main reason is probably just that people are regulary living long enough for it to show up.
Cancer - Cause for most cancers is known. Smoking is the obvious cause for a big rise, poor diet and pollution also cause problems. Again, people now live longer so late-onset genetic cancers show up when people would habe been dead before. Also better diagnostics mean cancer is diagnosed rather than just being an unkown cause of death as in the past.
Stress - Not a disease. Some things may be caused by stress, but I think the main problem is that people report being stressed nowadays, whereas in the past a peasant in the field would be just as stressed but unable to complain about it.
Hearing voices - This is reported as far back as we have records. Generally caused by various different mental problems, or just the brain trynig to find patterns in random noise. Is there any evidence of an increase?
Breakdown - People didn't used to have the luxury of breaking down if they were stressed. This can only become a problem with state benefit and health care.
Suicide - Any evidence of an increase? Many people commited suicide in the past.
Drug addiction - It was completely normal to eat mushrooms and smoke opium in the past. Only a problem now because of draconian laws against drug use. Also, higher population density means greater chance for organised crime.
Diabeties - Type I diabeties is genetic. Most people with this would have died in the past due to lack of treatment, so this has increased with better medical care. Type II is due to high sugar and fat diet, and may have a genetic component that makes some people vunerable.
Epilepsy - Known as far back as records exist. Any evidence of an increase?
Autism - People with true autism were unlikely to survive in the past due to lack of care. Changes in diagnosis mean far too many people who have very little wrong with them are diagnosed with things like autism now, as well as other things like dyslexia. This is mainly due to the recent trend of medicalising every little flaw in the human body and makes comparison with the past virtually impossible.
Asthma - Partly due to increased air pollution. Mainly due to over-diagnosis as with autism. Most people diagnosed with asthma nowadays have nothing more than a slight cough or hayfever. As someone who was born with asthma I always laugh at people who claim to have asthma and yet have never had an attack or actually needed to use an inhaler.
Allergies - Cause not really known, but thought to be due to over-sanitisation in early life, as well as easy access to a wider variety of potential allergens.
Disabilities - I think what you are saying is that disabled people are more likely to survive due to better medical care, in which case I entirely agree. I don't see how this supports your case that we are less healthy though.
Left handedness - Are you seriously suggesting there is anything wrong with being left handed?
Hearing loss in young - I don't know of any increase, and it depends how you define "young". I would suspect that increase would be more due to better diagnosis than any reall increase.
Violence - Humans have fought each other since they existed. Denser urban living could increase violence purely because you meet more people, but I doubt there has really been any increase in general.
Unhapiness - Were peasants and miners happy a couple of centuries ago? People complain more now because they can. If they had a choice of living now or living in abject poverty a few hundred years ago I wonder which they;d choose?


Can’t offhand think of anything more…….braindead! Cure? I'll watch a movie!


Michelle :)



I hope the movie is in fact Braindead :P

Edited for clarity.

[Jocky]

Left handedness - Are you seriously suggesting there is anything wrong with being left handed?

As a corrie-fisted type myself, I should think not >:(

BTW, have you noticed that all the smilies which have hands are left handed :ponder: :wavey: O0

Thought for mods - should this interesting thread be moved to a more appropriate board? It stirkes me as neither General nor off-topic (apart from this post :-[ )

[Mongrel]

Autism - People with true autism were unlikely to survive in the past due to lack of care. Changes in diagnosis mean far too many people who have very little wrong with them are diagnosed with things like autism now, as well as other things like dyslexia. This is mainly due to the recent trend of medicalising every little flaw in the human body and makes comparison with the past virtually impossible.


A minor quibble - Autism comes on many levels, ranging from the nasty "unable to function in society without assisstance" down to "doesn't learn or socialise well". Many of the people who we would now recognise as Autistic would have been capable of surviving adequately with a little assistance and an explaination of "Well he's a little slow". Many jobs really don't require socialisation or mastery of inherently difficult skills, just someone who's capable of using a shovel, climbing a ladder with a hod of bricks or boxing things up in a warehouse.

[Allo Allo]

Hello Mongrel,

Agree - I worked for a group conected with autistic children ranging right along the autistic spectrum and now and again I though to myself "This kid needs a short, sharp physical rebuke." (Trying to be politically correct here)

Interestingly, our son was an academic disaster - would have been diagnosed dyslexic or ADHD or something now - he eventually became a mechanical engineer to our surprise - but recently someone gave him some ritilin which he tried. He said the difference to his thought process was amazing....maybe it would have helped him at school - don't know....

Michelle :)

[Allo Allo]

As a corrie-fisted type myself, I should think not >:(



Read my post to Cuddles - I LOVE the lefthanded! :-*


Michelle :)

[Allo Allo]

I would be interested to see any evidence to back up the claim that these have all increased compared to say 150 years ago.



Hello Cuddles,

Mmmm – I did to my “homework” on all this – not wild claims as has been alleged – just trends in what is happening.

The “pollution” aspect of irregular heartbeat was from clinical trials and was a suggested cause. (Vehicle emissions).
Alzheimer’s is more prevalent in younger people (40 somethings) and is a “new” disease anyway.
“Stress” causes lots of stuff – a disease of modern life? (nice discussion here)
Hearing voices seams to be on increase – or at least spoken about – statistics vary from 6-10% of the population.
Don’t agree on breakdown – they were just shoved into asylums!
Suicide in youth has increased – school bullying? Drugs? Movies?
Drugs – more common and accessible because it’s big business – make it legal and the problem goes away!
Diabetes definitely on increase – how can you argue? Check statistics on Internet.
Same with Epilepsy, autism, asthma, allergies, disabilities, and hearing loss.
Left handedness is VERY INTERESTING. There is an increase in people born left handed (no criticism!) – reason unknown – clinical trials suggested Ultrasound might be cause – if this is so – it means it is not doing NOTHING – it might be doing SOMETHING to foetus – read up yourself. THIS WAS NOT A CRITICISM OF LEFT HANDED PEOPLE!!!!!!! I LOVE left handed people!
Violence – I agree has always been with us – with the increase in our standard of living it should be reducing?
Happiness – polls suggest that people were happier in the fifties (1950’s)


Movie? - No – not “Braindead” – no rat-monkeys!! :ghost: – Just Oceans 12 – Mmmm – think I enjoyed Oceans 11 more. But it was entertaining…


Michelle :)

[Allo Allo]

There's no such thing as 'autocratic science'. It just looks like a term invented to belittle science (rather like the stupid term 'allopathy' that is used out of context by Woos) rather than have any real meaning.

As for subtle...

Science can detect neutrinos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino), particles that hardly interact with matter at all. Science can detect the spin of a single electron.

They are subtle effects and science manages quite well. So how can science not detect Yin and Yang, the Vital Force, Innate Intelligence, Prana, new-age 'energies', etc.?

Perhaps they don't really exist. ;)

Now, it's one thing to say that they are too subtle to be detected, but if that's so, what reason is there to suppose they exist? (other than wishful thinking of course).


Hello John,

Please read my Mojo post. When science detects neutrinos, you mean they are detecting postulated neutrinos – and the spin of a postulated electron can be changed by the MIND (Oh God, now I’ll have to find my source!) I should just shut up!

Oh! And “Autocratic” was MY term! I thought it was rather descriptive at the time…mmmm – haven’t got time to explain why I used it but I wondered if this “feeling” in the general public wasn’t fuelling the move away from Orthodox Medicine rather like the move away from Orthodox Religion – the move away from “Autocratic” everything. (can include Conspiracy Theorists in that too) – just an idea.

Michelle :)

[Allo Allo]

both posts


Hello Mojo,

Woo! Wow! Attack of the Skeps! – left handed ones too! 8)

You think I have made wild claims? The fact that the human mind has to be cleared away from testing anything is a STATEMENT THAT THE HUMAN MIND is DOING SOMETHING!!!! I find this exciting and amazing. I’m sorry it does not create the same awe in you. WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN? Explain to me the scientific reason that EXPECTATION, BELIEF, alters the outcome of experiments. I don’t want to know anything about “Psychological” I want to know the SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION of how a THOUGHT affects something that is not in the mind of the thinker. And I repeat that these forces are there whether we scoff or not. I would like to know what kind of particle (or wave or field) is the stuff of my thought.

Not one of my “increase” lists was posted without checking the facts – and I possibly should have added in “the West”…..anyone can check it out – it just takes hours of eye-boggling reading – be my guest!

My personal interest is not all the stuff I now feel I have to defend, I don’t care if homeopathy or whatever is placebo or not – so how did this happen? I want to check facts about OTHER stuff and I’m getting derailed!

Michelle :)

[Mojo]

Hello Mojo,

Woo! Wow! Attack of the Skeps! – left handed ones too! 8)

Me too! O0


You think I have made wild claims?

I didn't comment on whether your claims were wild. You stated that you hadn't made any claims at all.


The fact that the human mind has to be cleared away from testing anything is a STATEMENT THAT THE HUMAN MIND is DOING SOMETHING!!!! I find this exciting and amazing. I’m sorry it does not create the same awe in you. WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN? Explain to me the scientific reason that EXPECTATION, BELIEF, alters the outcome of experiments. I don’t want to know anything about “Psychological” I want to know the SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION of how a THOUGHT affects something that is not in the mind of the thinker. And I repeat that these forces are there whether we scoff or not. I would like to know what kind of particle (or wave or field) is the stuff of my thought.

Do you accept the possibility that expectation and belief are doing no more than affecting the perceptions of the subject and the experimenters?

[Mojo]

And I repeat that these forces are there whether we scoff or not.

Do you have any evidence that these forces are there? Have they ever been measured, or even detected under controlled conditions?

[Admin]

The fact that the human mind has to be cleared away from testing anything is a STATEMENT THAT THE HUMAN MIND is DOING SOMETHING!!!! I find this exciting and amazing. I’m sorry it does not create the same awe in you. WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN? Explain to me the scientific reason that EXPECTATION, BELIEF, alters the outcome of experiments.

The "human mind" is not excluded from testing because it is doing something inexplicable; we simply need to rule out human biases that confuse real effects and apparent effects that arise because of our cognitive biases etc.

Expectation, belief, and other confounding factors do not alter the outcome of experiments by altering what is being investigated, they simply lead to false conclusions (which is why they have to be controlled).

I thought we'd gone through all this!!

The human mind does not have magical capabilities.

I'm not actually sure what it is you're claiming (if anything) but we seem to be going round in circles; a bit like a dog chasing its tail.

Remember, speculation about 'energy' (or anything for that matter) that has no evidence to back it up and no way of testing for it is actually meaningless.

If you're claiming that such 'energies' are real (which you seem to have done) then there should be something tangible on which such a claim is made.

[Allo Allo]

Do you have any evidence that these forces are there? Have they ever been measured, or even detected under controlled conditions?


Hi Mojo,

I believe so – I’m trying to suggest some evidence. I don’t know how you’d measure this – it's under scrutiny... I’M the one asking the question!!! >:( :D ;D I am suggesting that the MIND or BODY? must emit some force that can alter stuff. If a gambler is “on a Roll”, full of expectation and belief he will win, he has a better chance (statistically) to do so – how? (I suppose I’ll have to find the tests done about this too now!!) Does his “expansive luck” feeling alter the innards of the one arm bandit, or make the dice roll a different way?
In tests on prayer – it works! Neither Patients nor nursing staff had knowledge of the experiment – how does it work? (I do not believe in “God”). There HAS to be a principle.

This is NOT the same idea as the “thoughtform” discussion going on in paranormal. This is simply about some kind of “force” “field” whatever that WE emit that affects other things.

Michelle 8)

[Admin]

If a gambler is “on a Roll”, full of expectation and belief he will win, he has a better chance (statistically) to do so – how?

He doesn't have a better chance of winning statistically. He may be winning above his average at that point (due to clustering) but it's not because of his belief.


In tests on prayer – it works!

No it doesn't. Repeated tests show that prayer makes no difference at all.


This is NOT the same idea as the “thoughtform” discussion going on in paranormal. This is simply about some kind of “force” “field” whatever that WE emit that affects other things.

A lot of the principles are very much the same.

One difference is that you're assuming things are true when they're not and that's why you're looking for explanations to these magical forces that don't exist.

If you knew a bit more about probability and statistics, and what the gambler's fallacy is, then perhaps you would be able to see why your first point is incorrect.

[Allo Allo]

Hi John,

“The "human mind" is not excluded from testing because it is doing something inexplicable; we simply need to rule out human biases that confuse real effects and apparent effects that arise because of our cognitive biases etc.”

I UNDERSTAND THIS. YES.

This discussion arose by talking about PLACEBO.

There is no FINAL explanation for placebo, except, I think it was you who explained – no I think I read it in a trial, that certain areas of the brain “light up” in the same way whether the patient has been given drugs or inert pills. But I think it was you? who said placebo releases “well being” hormones and these can “mask symptoms” of illness which is dangerous etc etc I UNDERSTAND this. And the point I made was, from a thought,belief, attitude – isn’t this a remarkable effect on a thing?

Expectation, belief, and other confounding factors do not alter the outcome of experiments by altering what is being investigated, they simply lead to false conclusions (which is why they have to be controlled).

I don’t know about this – I have read of weird things happening in Physics – can’t discuss this not qualified. (Drat!) But I believe this might be a fallacy.

I thought we'd gone through all this!! :'( Me too! You can’t be explaining very well! :D :P >:D

The human mind does not have magical capabilities.

ABSOLUTELY! YES! NOT MAGICAL - JUST AMAZING. Why do you relate human wonder with magic? I see things around me all the time that I find wondrous! They are not MAGICAL! The human immune system is AMAZING in its intricacy – but not magical!

I hope you are not so sceptical and scientific that you’ve forgotten to be excited about how astonishing the physical body is, or how powerful the mind. Or how the more you discover, the more there is to discover!

I'm not actually sure what it is you're claiming (if anything) but we seem to be going round in circles; a bit like a dog chasing its tail.

I’m saying isn’t it bloody amazing! What is the scientific matter of thought?

Remember, speculation about 'energy' (or anything for that matter) that has no evidence to back it up and no way of testing for it is actually meaningless.

If you're claiming that such 'energies' are real (which you seem to have done) then there should be something tangible on which such a claim is made.

I’m not CLAIMING – I’m saying if our thoughts can alter symptoms in a physical body – and if my DOCTOR’S expectations (that I don’t KNOW about) can alter the effectiveness of a drug (or placebo) in ME, there is some force/energy in action. My brain truly " lights up" when I read that placebo ultrasound massage with the machine SWITCHED OFF only works if the PHYSIOTHERAPIST believes it is switched on - Mmm! Not only does my own thought change me in quite radical ways (even if only temporary) but SOMEONE ELSE’S thought can too. I think there must be some form of unexplained something somewhere that is doing that that science can’t “see”.

Michelle 8)

[Allo Allo]

Show me your tests! >:(

I am skeptical ;D

Michelle :)

[Admin]

I think there must be some form of unexplained something somewhere that is doing that that science can’t “see”.

Well as you don't seem to have a grasp of the things you talk about then I can see why you'd think that. There are already explanations for the things you think are real.

Nature is amazing and the more you understand it the more amazing it becomes. Real understanding comes though science however. I would find being amazed by 'something somewhere' that has no explanation to be most intellectually unsatisfying.

[Allo Allo]

Well as you don't seem to have a grasp of the things you talk about then I can see why you'd think that.

Think what?


There are already explanations for the things you think are real.

Which is what?


Nature is amazing and the more you understand it the more amazing it becomes. Real understanding comes though science however. I would find being amazed by 'something somewhere' that has no explanation to be most intellectually unsatisfying.


I would think having to understand constantly through the intellect and science most spiritually unsatisfying!

>:(

[Admin]

I would think having to understand constantly through the intellect and science most spiritually unsatisfying.


Evidently. ;)

[doubting thomas]

I would think having to understand constantly through the intellect and science most spiritually unsatisfying!
>:(


On the contrary i find understanding of everything through science highly satisfying.

[doubting thomas]

I would think having to understand constantly through the intellect and science most spiritually unsatisfying!
>:(


Just wondered, what is your definition of "spiritually unsatisfying"?

[Mojo]

There is no FINAL explanation for placebo, except, I think it was you who explained – no I think I read it in a trial, that certain areas of the brain “light up” in the same way whether the patient has been given drugs or inert pills. But I think it was you? who said placebo releases “well being” hormones and these can “mask symptoms” of illness which is dangerous etc etc I UNDERSTAND this. And the point I made was, from a thought,belief, attitude – isn’t this a remarkable effect on a thing?

One part of the body (the brain) affecting another part of the body. Not really that remarkable. No more remarkable than your mouth watering if you think about food when you're hungry (or if you're one of Pavlov's dogs and he rings the bell). Certain thought processes lead to physical effects within the body.

[Cuddles]

Hello Cuddles,

Mmmm – I did to my “homework” on all this – not wild claims as has been alleged – just trends in what is happening.

The “pollution” aspect of irregular heartbeat was from clinical trials and was a suggested cause. (Vehicle emissions).
I haven't heard of those studies, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of effect.


Alzheimer’s is more prevalent in younger people (40 somethings) and is a “new” disease anyway.
What do you mean a "new" disease. It may not have been recognised in the past and just been called forgetfulness or senility, but it was probably still there. I know there may be environmental factors involved, but can you post any evidence that it has increased in younger people?


“Stress” causes lots of stuff – a disease of modern life? (nice discussion here)
As I said, stress is not a disease. It may cause diseases, and if it really has increased then it could be one factor in us not being healthier as you allege. However, I would argue that a starving peasant in the 1800s is unlikely to be less stressed than a business executive with a six figure salary, they would just have to accept it as part of life and not complain about it.


Hearing voices seams to be on increase – or at least spoken about – statistics vary from 6-10% of the population.
I think you may be right in saying this is more spoken about, but not that there is actually an increase. If you were likely to be thrown in an asylum or burned for witchcraft it unlikely you would admit to hearing things. In the modern climate of psychics and paranormal belief people will willingly claim to have heard things, even if the cause is usually just misinterpretaion.


Don’t agree on breakdown – they were just shoved into asylums!
Wouldn't this imply that it happened and was just treated differently?


Suicide in youth has increased – school bullying? Drugs? Movies?
Again, do you have evidence to support this? I very much doubt bullying has increased. If anything there should now be less since teachers aren't allowed to bully students anymore. As far as I'm aware there is no evidence of films, TV or computers causing violent behaviour, all the claims are generally ust excuses to cover bad parenting (watch Southpark ;))


Drugs – more common and accessible because it’s big business – make it legal and the problem goes away!
Exactly.


Diabetes definitely on increase – how can you argue? Check statistics on Internet.
I didnt argue.


Same with Epilepsy, autism, asthma, allergies, disabilities, and hearing loss.
As I said, most of these are just due to differences in diagnosis. Anyone with a slight cough can be diagnosed with asthma. People with mild hearing loss will now get a hearing aid instead of just having to ask people to speak up. Just because diseases are diagnosed more does not mean that they are move prevalent. Allergies and disabilities probably have increased, as I said in my previous post.


Left handedness is VERY INTERESTING. There is an increase in people born left handed (no criticism!) – reason unknown – clinical trials suggested Ultrasound might be cause – if this is so – it means it is not doing NOTHING – it might be doing SOMETHING to foetus – read up yourself. THIS WAS NOT A CRITICISM OF LEFT HANDED PEOPLE!!!!!!! I LOVE left handed people!
If there is nothing wrong with being left-handed, why did you include it in a list of things showing how bad our health is?


Violence – I agree has always been with us – with the increase in our standard of living it should be reducing?
Throughout human history people have always been violent, whatever their circumstances. It would be nice if haveing enough food and money reduced violence, but sadly I can't see this happening.


Happiness – polls suggest that people were happier in the fifties (1950’s)
First of all, how do you quantify happiness? These polls just ask things like "Do you feel content/happy/sad?", which depends more on when you got out of bed than how good life is in general. These results are thought to just reflect that people in the '50s were just coming out of the depression and were happy to have anything, whereas now people have everything they need and are unhappy because they want more. Do you really think that if all those who were polled were transported back to the 1950s they would suddenly be happier? Or if they were transported back to be peasants 200 years ago?

[Cuddles]

I’m not CLAIMING – I’m saying if our thoughts can alter symptoms in a physical body – and if my DOCTOR’S expectations (that I don’t KNOW about) can alter the effectiveness of a drug (or placebo) in ME, there is some force/energy in action. My brain truly " lights up" when I read that placebo ultrasound massage with the machine SWITCHED OFF only works if the PHYSIOTHERAPIST believes it is switched on - Mmm! Not only does my own thought change me in quite radical ways (even if only temporary) but SOMEONE ELSE’S thought can too. I think there must be some form of unexplained something somewhere that is doing that that science can’t “see”.

Michelle 8)

What are thoughts? They are physical signals in the brain (electrical, chemical, whatever). So there is nothing special about the brain influencing the body, it does it all the time. The placebo effect is not caused by the physiotherapists belief. It is caused by yours. If the therapist knows they are not doing anything they can pass this knowledge on to you through their actions, speech, body language, etc.. There is no need to propose any magic "energy" that science can't see, because science already has a perfectly good explanation.

[Jocky]

Left handedness is VERY INTERESTING. There is an increase in people born left handed (no criticism!) – reason unknown

Could it simply be that children are no longer being forced to hold spoons and pens in their right hands?


THIS WAS NOT A CRITICISM OF LEFT HANDED PEOPLE!!!!!!! I LOVE left handed people!

I was only joking in my original post you know :) :-* Go easy on the wild claims about loving all of us southpaws though - remember Jack the Ripper was left handed :o and even worse, so is Uri Geller :scared: :eek:

I could make some observations about why people feel the need to believe in mysterious undetectable forces with no measurable clinical effect - but I feel my best role in this thread is to lighten the tone. Cheers! :booze:

[Allo Allo]

To the skeps (combined)

D.Thomas
I can only answer by explaining what I think is spiritually satisfying. Our spiritual aspect to me is when we experience enthusiasm, inspiration, surprise, delight, joy, enchantment, playfulness, imagination, carefreeness (is there such a word?) safety, acceptance, affection, love, friendship, great beauty, profound emotional moving, connectedness, mystical moments, insights, peaks. This is food for our “spirit”- the deep inner part that makes life worth living. Experiences of this kind make people “glow” and can be highly contagious! Sometimes these things happen more easily when the intellectual mind is switched off.

PS – check out - http://compoundsemiconductor.net/articles/magazine/12/8/2/1 - does this send out a light and then measure it on its return?

Mojo.
I do not find what you describe amazing. I find that something in another brain might affect me amazing.

John.
Where are your clinical trials for “prayer”? You show me yours and I’ll show you mine… ^-^

Cuddles
Yes – you have some very good points! Are we becoming “soft”? If you transported me back to the 1950’s I’d hate it! For a start I’m a woman and we have come a long way! There were really crummy washing machines, no dishwashers for common people like me – and NO CENTRAL HEATING!!!!!and I’m not mentioning MCP’s. I have had five children and would have died five times if it hadn’t been for transfusions and clever medical treatment. I would have died twice more under other circumstances. I am truly glad I live in “modern” times. And I think it is my duty to enjoy living my very preciously given life as much as I can in gratitude to all those caring people who saved me.

I do find “new” exciting – the idea of putting Left-Handedness in was not that it is an illness – but to ask “Why is it more?” Is it evolution? Are WE making it more?

Where do I find evidence? Well. I use the internet mostly. But I’m very suspicious of that too! I am especially suspicious (skeptic?) of stuff that is repeated over and over from one source. I found clinical trials on homeopathy – and reports and more reports on those same clinical trials – by people who must have qualifications – but how do I know? If something just gets repeated as “gospel” – I get even more suspicious. I joined this forum hoping that I would find the source of different stuff – not just blindly regurgitated “facts”.

I chuck ideas into this forum so that some kind of vital discussion can follow. I think what I chuck in is a lot woo – because A LOT of people are – and somewhere there needs to be some kind of “working together” otherwise the skeps and the woos will be repelled further and further apart. It is my opinion (only MY opinion) that there is a lot we could learn from each other – attitudes, concepts, ideas, etc. If the public are moving away from proper medicine, they are MISSING something and this thing they are needing should be put back into proper medicine.

Yes – I wonder about what people see on television – 200 years ago you only knew what was happening in your own area – now, added to our own personal worries, we sit and get upset watching worrying things from all over the world. Some of the “kids” stuff on TV makes me cringe – mmmm. I agree about bad parenting!

About thought – yes science does have and explanation…OK.

About signals – yes –true O0

Jocky
re allowing people to be left handed – but we are a generation into that already.

OK – really? Jack the Ripper?

THANK GOD YOU ARE HERE TO LIGHTEN THE TONE! :angel:




Doesn’t anyone WORK for a living? Or are you always on computers like me? I HAVE to work now – mucking about here is not earning money!


Michelle 8)

[Jocky]

Jocky re allowing people to be left handed – but we are a generation into that already.

True - but it depends when you start measuring the increase from. What was your source for the original statement - I'd like to have a look.


OK – really? Jack the Ripper?

Well, actually that it apocryphal - I was flippantly having fun by unfairly bracketing dear old Uri and myself (and Mojo - sorry!) with a notorious serial killer. His left-handedness was an initial presumption based on knife wounds found by post mortem - but the deduction depends on an assumption about where the Ripper was standing relative to his victims when he did the ripping, and that is of course unknowable.

A good summary of the argument can be found here (http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-left.html) - I'd say that the information is not conclusive either way.


Doesn’t anyone WORK for a living? Or are you always on computers like me? I HAVE to work now – mucking about here is not earning money!

Always on computers, me. Waiting for a big database query to run :(

[Mojo]

I do not find what you describe amazing.

You seemed to be saying that you find the idea of certain parts of the brain being active under certain circumstances, and the idea that this leads to the release of endorphins "remarkable":
There is no FINAL explanation for placebo, except, I think it was you who explained – no I think I read it in a trial, that certain areas of the brain “light up” in the same way whether the patient has been given drugs or inert pills. But I think it was you? who said placebo releases “well being” hormones and these can “mask symptoms” of illness which is dangerous etc etc I UNDERSTAND this. And the point I made was, from a thought,belief, attitude – isn’t this a remarkable effect on a thing? I don't see that this is any more remarkable than what I described in my reply.


I find that something in another brain might affect me amazing.

Can you give any examples of "something in another brain" affecting you? Other than via the actions of the owner of the other brain, of course.

[Mojo]

Where are your clinical trials for “prayer”? You show me yours and I’ll show you mine…http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16569567

[Mojo]

Actually, this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2667526&dopt=Citation), which Allo Allo posted in response to a request for references to "tests on homeopathic versus drugs trials" that "found drugs, placebo and homeopathy all scored very similarly", has a very interesting approach. It didn't actually test any orthodox treatments itself, but, having concluded that there was no real difference between the three homoeopathic remedies tested and placebo, it notes that:
In the literature comparable therapeutic results are reported for antibiotic therapy, decongestant nose drops and for the drainage of nasal cavities.

Clever, that: chose a condition for which there are ineffective orthodox treatments, test homoeopathic remedies for that condition and, hey presto, the homoeopathy is as effective as the orthodox treatments!

[Allo Allo]

True - but it depends when you start measuring the increase from. What was your source for the original statement - I'd like to have a look.



I heard about this when working in autism/disabilities.....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16758857&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=43&itool=pubmed_docsum


Michelle :)

[Allo Allo]

Clever, that: chose a condition for which there are ineffective orthodox treatments, test homoeopathic remedies for that condition and, hey presto, the homoeopathy is as effective as the orthodox treatments!


Yes - agree - WHO is DOING the TESTING - is always important! There are lots of "studies" pro and con with good results - mmmm

Michelle :)

[Allo Allo]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16569567


Thanks!!!! Mine are also there - but I notice something you could possibly explain. Your link is the result of an American "trial" MINE show that prayer is beneficial - and quite a few do - but they are all american or canadian ! And the other suspicious thing is that the further you go back - like to 1998 - the more effective prayer is! And check out WHO has set up the trial!

I see on your "trial" - it is better to ask your friends NOT to pray for you if you have a heart attack!!! >:D But (did you see other trials) if you pray for yourself, you might have better luck!

Do we have we any UK trials - I couldn't find an actual trial - only discission....

Michelle :)

[doubting thomas]

To the skeps (combined)

D.Thomas
I can only answer by explaining what I think is spiritually satisfying. Our spiritual aspect to me is when we experience enthusiasm, inspiration, surprise, delight, joy, enchantment, playfulness, imagination, carefreeness (is there such a word?) safety, acceptance, affection, love, friendship, great beauty, profound emotional moving, connectedness, mystical moments, insights, peaks. This is food for our “spirit”- the deep inner part that makes life worth living. Experiences of this kind make people “glow” and can be highly contagious! Sometimes these things happen more easily when the intellectual mind is switched off.


I suppose the word "spiritually" is where we skeps differ.

I have experienced all of the above, except for "mystical moments", not sure what those are, but not in a spiritual way.
I read news of new scientific or technical stuff and get a buz from that, am i sad or what?,
i think i need to get out more...



PS – check out - http://compoundsemiconductor.net/articles/magazine/12/8/2/1 - does this send out a light and then measure it on its return?

This is getting very tech, almost beyond my meagre knowledge.

In answer to your question, sort of.

I've had a look and i think the light being sent out is converted into power for the remote device to operate. The remote device then sends back the information it has measured which is converted into information that can be easily read.

I'm interested to know why you are interested in this particular technology?

[Mojo]

see on your "trial" - it is better to ask your friends NOT to pray for you if you have a heart attack!!!

No, it didn't find that. It found that patients who knew that they were being prayed for had a higher incidence of complications. Note that this is entirely to do with the perception of the patient; the prayers themselves seem to have had no effect, but the patient's knowledge that they were being prayed for did. It's that old placebo effect at work again.


But (did you see other trials) if you pray for yourself, you might have better luck!

Once again, the patient's awareness of their own prayers will be bringing the placebo effect into play.

[Mojo]

Yes - agree - WHO is DOING the TESTING - is always important! There are lots of "studies" pro and con with good results - mmmm

Note that the test in question showed that the homoeopathic remedies had no effect on the outcome. Patients receiving them did no better thasn patients in the control group.

[Mojo]

You seem to have missed this, so I'll post it again.


I find that something in another brain might affect me amazing.

Can you give any examples of "something in another brain" affecting you? Other than via the actions of the owner of the other brain, of course.

[Mojo]

And the other suspicious thing is that the further you go back - like to 1998 - the more effective prayer is! Why might that be the case?

[Allo Allo]

Why might that be the case?


Less rigorous testing


M

[Allo Allo]

You seem to have missed this, so I'll post it again.

Can you give any examples of "something in another brain" affecting you? Other than via the actions of the owner of the other brain, of course.


I wrote this while we were discussing placebo – this is the EXACT quote from The Skeptic’s dictionary which I had been reading that made me feel placebo was not only MY mind – but someone else’s too. I felt this was amazing – well it amazed me at the time. Amazing = astonishing, remarkable, astounding.
Here is the quote “Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. “ Of course, this begs other question.

I can’t find my source right now – but it was a skeptical one – that mentioned doctor expectation affected the action of medication on a patient. I was taken with the importance of this because I have read - source not to hand - that doctors often don't always expect the medication is much use anyway (for whatever reason)

I accept Cuddles explanation that some aspect of my consciousness is so sensitive to other people’s expectation that it picks up signals.

M

[Allo Allo]

Note that the test in question showed that the homoeopathic remedies had no effect on the outcome. Patients receiving them did no better than patients in the control group.


Yes - This link was given for a test that placebo, drugs and homeopathy rated the SAME. Of course you read it more carefully than I did and pointed out the drug was not tested in this trial... O0

[Allo Allo]

No, it didn't find that. It found that patients who knew that they were being prayed for had a higher incidence of complications. Note that this is entirely to do with the perception of the patient; the prayers themselves seem to have had no effect, but the patient's knowledge that they were being prayed for did. It's that old placebo effect at work again.

Once again, the patient's awareness of their own prayers will be bringing the placebo effect into play.


On the aspect of prayer – in all those trials (from your link) both good and bad – YOU chose the one that supported your point – and I saw the ones that didn’t! I’m aware that I might be guilty of confirmation bias – and so might you!

From Trial “Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). “

I cracked a joke about asking friends NOT to pray if we had heart attacks ( you'd presume they WERE praying so you'd be in the complications occured 59% - )

IF?? There is a “GOD” who has anyone’s interests in mind – it might be dangerous to pray - it could alter outcomes negatively! I always wonder why people resort to this interfering – why not just, in faith, say “Thy will be done.”

I also had something not answered – the scientific matter of “thought” – I do not have an answer, I am asking the question, because I’d LIKE an answer. Dr B mentioned “consciousness” and I wondered whether that word might not be better. I KNOW all the stuff about electrical impulse blah blah – but when I have a THOUGHT – what matter is it MADE of? Likewise, what is the MATTER of “Consciousness”?

M

[Allo Allo]

I suppose the word "spiritually" is where we skeps differ.

I have experienced all of the above, except for "mystical moments", not sure what those are, but not in a spiritual way.
I read news of new scientific or technical stuff and get a buz from that, am i sad or what?,
i think i need to get out more...

This is getting very tech, almost beyond my meagre knowledge.

In answer to your question, sort of.

I've had a look and i think the light being sent out is converted into power for the remote device to operate. The remote device then sends back the information it has measured which is converted into information that can be easily read.

I'm interested to know why you are interested in this particular technology?


I dislike the word spiritual - I used it in anger. I cannot find a word that describes what I mean and I have none that is right. Mystical is not good either - because you didn't understand a "mystical moment". But we all should - it's a sort of "clearing" in the mind leading to an "understanding".....? Something like that.

Re that machine - I wondered how an electrical field is "seen" by such a machine? When you measure with your volt meter you are picking up a field around wires?

I have an obsession with light and in using frequencies of light for - dare I say it? - therapeutic purposes. And the possibility that they may or may not work. I asked the question long ago if the physical bodies electromagnetic radiations can be measured - but no one answered - we got bogged down in other stuff.

M

[Mojo]

Less rigorous testing

When? Do you think the testing is becoming more or less rigorous?

[Allo Allo]

Well as you don't seem to have a grasp of the things you talk about then I can see why you'd think that. There are already explanations for the things you think are real.

Nature is amazing and the more you understand it the more amazing it becomes. Real understanding comes though science however. I would find being amazed by 'something somewhere' that has no explanation to be most intellectually unsatisfying.


John,

I think your post showed impatience so – in reply.

This is UK Skeptics Forum,I live in the UK and I am a skeptic. I qualify! I can find out what I need to know from the fact that other people here know more than me – that’s what I am relying on. I have a perfectly selfish motive!

I have never studied logic, I am not here to study logic – I am trying to clarify my ideas, many of which I have carried around with me all my life. I am going through some “thought” crises, where I would like to dump some “thought” baggage. I have already been able to jettison aspects of the way I think.

I don’t know why other people post to this site, I hope they are sharing stuff – rather than boosting their own egos by academic “dazzling” or engaging in communal reinforcement.

When you posted this I wondered if you were moderator or murderer! I presume you were frustrated by my “woolly” thinking – well – tough – so am I!



M

[Allo Allo]

When? Do you think the testing is becoming more or less rigorous?


More - depends who's doing it - but I think science is having a good effect on woo tests, making them more scientific.

m

[tkingdoll]

Allo Allo, you may consider yourself a Skeptic but you are not one from any definition I would use.

Can you just confirm this:


I wrote this while we were discussing placebo – this is the EXACT quote from The Skeptic’s dictionary which I had been reading that made me feel placebo was not only MY mind – but someone else’s too. I felt this was amazing – well it amazed me at the time. Amazing = astonishing, remarkable, astounding.
Here is the quote “Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. “ Of course, this begs other question.

Are you saying you interpreted this as the therapist's mind having a physical effect on the patient?

Also, do you know what 'double-blind' means and why it's so important in experiments?

[Allo Allo]

Allo Allo, you may consider yourself a Skeptic but you are not one from any definition I would use.

Can you just confirm this:

Are you saying you interpreted this as the therapist's mind having a physical effect on the patient?

Also, do you know what 'double-blind' means and why it's so important in experiments?


Hi Tkingdoll,

Well, if I'm not your kind of skeptic, I'm misplaced here. Is not accepting "pat" answers and searching for a proper understanding not a kind of skepticism? I am also skeptical of some "science" too - and yes, I did think this was strange - that the placebo effect worked only when the patient AND the therapist thought the machine was on - I can understand it if it worked if just the patient thought the machine was on.... and although I have accepted perfectly what Cuddles explanation was (as I have already said) there is an aspect of me that questions whether we "pick up" these signals only through our subconscious/unconcious mind - I am working that out.

You cannot hurry me up by saying I am not a skeptic - I do have an open mind and I'm trying to sort out WHAT is true. I posted something on Doctors expectations too - these are not something I made up. Of course I know what a double blind means! Some clinical trials are done without them too - so I'm not the only one you might infer is stupid.

M :)

[Aardvark]

Deep breath everyone.

Dear Allo Allo.

We are not all experts in Skeptical thinking. We are trying to help each other develop a rational and logical thought process that will help us all see the wood through the trees.

Are there 3 things ( or any number of things) that you need explaining so that you can have a functional understanding of what it is you need to understand.

This could help all of us as there may be topics here that we all take for granted.

Perhaps you could start a new topic.

I am going to have a rudimentary go at the 'matter of thought'

All brain functions involve the movement of neurotransmitters across the synapses between nerve cells. Memory is created this way and thought is created this way.

Once the movement ceases as in damage, disease or cell death then the memory and thoughts can be disrupted or lost altogether.

So memory and though are very much like computer software or programming in that they themselves need hardware to exist but are actually composed of electrical signals moving in pre determined pathways.

There is no matter to software just as there is no matter to thought or memory. It exists as electrical gradients caused by the movement of sodium and potassium across neuronal membranes, culminating in release of transmitters at the synapses

[Cuddles]

Of course there's also the theory that memory may be stored in "junk" DNA, which would explain why there's so much of it and why it can't be read using normal techniques, since it would have to use a different code to wright data. Having only read this in New Scientist and nowhere else I don't imagine its a particularly accepted theory, but I thought it was a very interesting idea.

[Admin]

I wrote this while we were discussing placebo – this is the EXACT quote from The Skeptic’s dictionary which I had been reading that made me feel placebo was not only MY mind – but someone else’s too. I felt this was amazing – well it amazed me at the time. Amazing = astonishing, remarkable, astounding.
Here is the quote “Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. “ Of course, this begs other question.


Again, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

The reason the therapist has to be blinded as to whether the procedure is real or not is not because his mind can affect the outcome (mind over matter again ::)) but because he could unconsciously give signals to the patient and influence the patient's response.

For a good example of this effect look at this example of an apparently psychic horse: Clever Hans (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=clever_hans.php)

[Admin]

I am trying to clarify my ideas, many of which I have carried around with me all my life. I am going through some “thought” crises, where I would like to dump some “thought” baggage. I have already been able to jettison aspects of the way I think.


Well it looks like you've come here with some daft ideas and wish to post them in an antagonistic manner. Starting threads like "I'd rather be a woo-woo anytime!" doesn't make you look like someone who's looking for answers. ;)

If you wish to ask questions or discuss some unusual ideas then fire away. We're all prepared for that. What we don't want is pointless skeptic/believer battles that occur on other forums.

[Mojo]

I have already been able to jettison aspects of the way I think.

Try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. ;)

[Allo Allo]

Of course there's also the theory that memory may be stored in "junk" DNA, which would explain why there's so much of it and why it can't be read using normal techniques, since it would have to use a different code to wright data. Having only read this in New Scientist and nowhere else I don't imagine its a particularly accepted theory, but I thought it was a very interesting idea.


It is an interesting theory - and another is http://www.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_research/conscious.htm


M

[Allo Allo]

Again, you've got the wrong end of the stick.



Mmmm

Wikipedia

The placebo effect (Latin placebo, "I shall please"), first mentioned in 1955 by Henry K. Beecher, M.D. (Beecher 1955) and also known as non-specific effects and the subject-expectancy effect, is the phenomenon that a patient's symptoms can be alleviated by an otherwise ineffective treatment, since the individual expects or believes that it will work. Some people consider this to be a remarkable aspect of human physiology; others consider it to be an illusion arising from the way medical experiments were conducted. The phenomenon, if it exists at all, is not fully understood by science.(New Scientist Space 19 March 2005)

(My emphasis)

M

[Allo Allo]

Try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. ;)


It's not MY baby I'm concerned for -

It is not what we KNOW (or think we know) about ourselves - it is what we DON’T know that is “more”…..

Years ago I met some New Age people who induced spiritual experiences in themselves by using magnets and shining bright light (especially blue frequencies) on their foreheads and temples. I have met others who experience a mystical state by “using” drugs and others who use meditation (which is cheaper!) About four years ago on TV, the meme lady, Susan Blackmore gave a very acceptable (to me) explanation of magnetic fields to the temporal lobe inducing mystical states.

In the present climate of people getting "spiritual" it is no good to simply sneer - science can and will (I believe) be able to connect the dots! I ask why would we develop a "spiritual" facility in our brains – nothing is just accidental. It has to be some survival tool….? Someone will offer a scientific explanation - early days yet.

Also, there is no doubt that after some “spiritual” experiences, people’s health is transformed – a lasting placebo. I won’t even go there!

Here is one man's experiment - not confirmed - but very fascinating. And intimations of thought storage possibilities...

http://www.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_research/mystical.htm

M

[Admin]

Mmmm

Wikipedia

The placebo effect (Latin placebo, "I shall please"), first mentioned in 1955 by Henry K. Beecher, M.D. (Beecher 1955) and also known as non-specific effects and the subject-expectancy effect, is the phenomenon that a patient's symptoms can be alleviated by an otherwise ineffective treatment, since the individual expects or believes that it will work. Some people consider this to be a remarkable aspect of human physiology; others consider it to be an illusion arising from the way medical experiments were conducted. The phenomenon, if it exists at all, is not fully understood by science.(New Scientist Space 19 March 2005)

(My emphasis)

M



But...

What is your point?

[median]

John

I think that Michelle's point may be that it is possible that the 'placebo effect' is a legitimate phenomenon in itself. I once saw some literature (years ago) citing links with nervous system function and suppresion of the immune system. (I think there has been also been links with depression?) The problem arises in trying to test the claim of the placebo effect when it forms an integral part of testing the efficacy of drug treatment ???

[Admin]

I think Michelle's point is that the mind, through strong belief or will, can influence physical phenomena; not only in yourself but in other people too (!)

I'll be publishing an article soon looking at placebo effects (notice the plural ;)) which will discuss the mainly psychological phenomenon behind it; but also some of the known physical changes that can and do occur due to placebo effects and some hypothesised reasons for these.

NOTE: "mind over matter" will not be part of that article.

[Allo Allo]

John

I think that Michelle's point may be that it is possible that the 'placebo effect' is a legitimate phenomenon in itself. I once saw some literature (years ago) citing links with nervous system function and suppresion of the immune system. (I think there has been also been links with depression?) The problem arises in trying to test the claim of the placebo effect when it forms an integral part of testing the efficacy of drug treatment ???


I AM suggesting we may have a capacity where our thought/emotion might affect physical phenomena in others. I am suggesting placebo effect might be one of the human species survival "mechanisms" like an" immune system" - a "placebo system".

Clinical trials on prayer have mixed conclusions. When John categorically stated that prayer doesn’t work, I presume he had STEP in mind. This is also under criticism - Is prayer that includes “love” different to being prayed for by unknown people? “Love” to me is a survival mechanism. So I think we are premature in making judgement.

The electrical/magnetic frequencies of a body extend outside it – do we “do”/”perceive” something in this way? Under the effect of strong emotion does this field extend further? At close quarters, could MY field interact in some way with someone else’s?

We have used placebo/mind over matter/ triggered “healing” for a million years because it DIDN’T work in some way? Boy, are we dumb!

My point for posting the quotation from Wikipedia to John was to show that I’m NOT the only mug who thinks “placebo effect” is amazing!

And to point out that the whole phenomenon of the placebo effect is still under review. I presume he will discuss the Hróbjartsson and Götzsche studies in his article. And if my THOUGHT can affect the matter of my body (see Visualisation trials) then it is splitting hairs to say this is not mind over matter.

M

[Admin]

I AM suggesting we may have a capacity where our thought/emotion might affect physical phenomena in others. I am suggesting placebo effect might be one of the human species survival "mechanisms" like an" immune system" - a "placebo system".

Can you explain WHY you're suggesting that?

What evidence do you have for thinking that?


Clinical trials on prayer have mixed conclusions. When John categorically stated that prayer doesn’t work, I presume he had STEP in mind. This is also under criticism - Is prayer that includes “love” different to being prayed for by unknown people? “Love” to me is a survival mechanism. So I think we are premature in making judgement.

Are there any good quality trials that have been repeated that show that prayer works for anything under any conditions?

If not, we have no good reason for thinking that prayer works at all.


The electrical/magnetic frequencies of a body extend outside it – do we “do”/”perceive” something in this way? Under the effect of strong emotion does this field extend further? At close quarters, could MY field interact in some way with someone else’s?

The human body does not give off electrical/magnetic frequencies so the rest of your questions are meaningless.


We have used placebo/mind over matter/ triggered “healing” for a million years because it DIDN’T work in some way? Boy, are we dumb!

We haven't been around for a million years!

Even so, what evidence do you have to support your claim that we have used 'placebo/mind over matter/ triggered “healing”'?

Again, you're stating assumptions as fact.


My point for posting the quotation from Wikipedia to John was to show that I’m NOT the only mug who thinks “placebo effect” is amazing!

Whether a person finds it 'amazing' or not has no bearing on what placebo effects are and how they operate. The point is an irrelevance.


And to point out that the whole phenomenon of the placebo effect is still under review. I presume he will discuss the Hróbjartsson and Götzsche studies in his article. And if my THOUGHT can affect the matter of my body (see Visualisation trials) then it is splitting hairs to say this is not mind over matter.

I'll discuss whatever I think gives the best overview of the placebo effect.

Your brain does control your body. It's a physical system though. If your spinal cord is damaged it stops working - like I keep saying, it's not mind over matter.

Michelle,

If you have any points to make will you do us the courtesy of backing up what you're claiming with some supporting evidence?

If not, you're you're wasting everyone's time here. Including your own.

You're using a familiar Woo tactic: claiming things (without evidence) and expecting us to accept it if we can't prove it false.

That may work in Woo-land but it won't wash with Skeptics. We can see the logical error in such thinking.

[Mojo]

We haven't been around for a million years!

Even so, what evidence do you have to support your claim that we have used 'placebo/mind over matter/ triggered “healing”'?

Perhaps she means MKB Therapy (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/index.php/topic,179.0.html). ;)

[Allo Allo]

Can you explain WHY you're suggesting that?
What evidence do you have for thinking that?

Yes - See On Schleppfuss' path: the placebo response in human evolution.Bendesky A, Sonabend AM.
And The placebo response: its putative role as a functional salutogenic mechanism of the central nervous system.Kradin RL. (sorry not live links)

Are there any good quality trials that have been repeated that show that prayer works for anything under any conditions?
I don't believe there are any either one way or the other - I withhold judgment.

The human body does not give off electrical/magnetic frequencies so the rest of your questions are meaningless. It does have a weak field.

We haven't been around for a million years!
I am serious check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic they say TWO million - an error? I am not qualified to say.

Even so, what evidence do you have to support your claim that we have used 'placebo/mind over matter/ triggered “healing”'?
Again, you're stating assumptions as fact.
No assumptions other than archeological evidence that we used magical thinking – painted on cave walls- danced around with rattles and drums, used herbs for (probably) healing, used priests, soothsayers, and written evidence that we carried on in various woo ways until very modern times. Well anyway, that's what I was taught our ancestors did.

Michelle,
If you have any points to make will you do us the courtesy of backing up what you're claiming with some supporting evidence?
If not, you're you're wasting everyone's time here. Including your own.
You're using a familiar Woo tactic: claiming things (without evidence) and expecting us to accept it if we can't prove it false.
That may work in Woo-land but it won't wash with Skeptics. We can see the logical error in such thinking.
I apolgise I didn't back up my statements. I am trying not to just claim things. I am am not trying to make you prove anything. Nor am I trying to prove anything either. I am truly sorry that you only see that.

Mojo - what is MKB Therapy?

M

[tkingdoll]

Of course placebo can have an effect on the body that seems physical - if the illness is psychological to begin with.

Here's a nice slogan:

Placebos - Imaginary cures for imaginary diseases.

[vbloke]

I am serious check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic they say TWO million - an error? I am not qualified to say.

Homo erectus and Homo habilis were around then, we (Homo sapiens) weren't.

[Admin]

Spot on Mark (vbloke) O0 We've been around for 100,000 to perhaps 150,000 years in our present form.

[wollery]

It does have a weak field.

Any reference to back this up? Or are you perhaps confusing electric/magnetic fields with electromagnetic radiation, which we certainly do emit in the infrared part of the spectrum.


No assumptions other than archeological evidence that we used magical thinking – painted on cave walls- danced around with rattles and drums, used herbs for (probably) healing, used priests, soothsayers, and written evidence that we carried on in various woo ways until very modern times. Well anyway, that's what I was taught our ancestors did.

They did indeed, and all the evidence shows that they had much shorter lives and higher infant mortality than us modern humans, and died from diseases which today are considered easily treatable minor ailments.

So that placebo thingamabob doesn't appear to have worked too well for them!


I apolgise I didn't back up my statements. I am trying not to just claim things. I am am not trying to make you prove anything. Nor am I trying to prove anything either. I am truly sorry that you only see that.

Let's see, you're suggesting that placebo is more than just a, um, placebo, that prayer may work..... What are you doing here if not claiming or trying to prove anything? Seeking answers from us? Trolling? I'm not trying to be rude, merely asking for clarification.

[Cuddles]

It is an interesting theory - and another is http://www.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_research/conscious.htm


M


This is a pretty standard theory. If, for example, rods and cones in the eye can only send a signal 100 times per second then there is no advantage if the brain works faster than this. This makes it unlikely we would develop continuous conciousness since our world model could still only update at 100Hz so all the time in between would be wasted, which means wasted energy. Bats have been shown fairly conclusively to have a stobe conciousness. They filter the sounds from other bats by ignoring all inputs that are anything more than a very small change from their previous update. Humans have also been seen to do this, which can e demonstrated by the inability to detect instantaneous changes on a computer screen for several milliseconds. This would (probably) not happen if conciousness were continuous.

This does not seem to support your views on the mind affecting things though. I assume you are refering to the statement "Could information from outside of the brain be acquired during this "infinite infinitesimal" interval?". This is refering to all inputs to the brain, mainly the five (or however many) senses, but also random variations in the external conditions which may have some very small effect. At no point is it suggested that the mind can output or control these influences, only that the mind may be influenced by them. You should also note that the whole paragraph was phrased as speculative questions, not even as a theory. While it seems entirely possible that random electro-magnetic fields may be able to have small influences on the brain, since it's working consist of charged particles, there is no evidence to suggest this actually happens, and this appears to be what that department will be researching next.

[Dr B]

There is plenty of evidence that weak magnetic fields can have relatively non-specific effects on neurophysiology. However, the effects are nebulous, seem to be dependent on a number of factors and no mechanism is currently accepted for the interaction - though the discovery of biogenic magnetite has got some people excited.

Other ideas include, ion resonance, cyclotron resonance as well as free-radicals. However its all pure speculation at present.

I have some severe concerns with these ideas - however, power-spectrum shifts in EEG and effects on experience have been documented.....something is going on.

This of course has nothing to do with brains receiving information via paranormal means - its just biophysics O0

[Mojo]

Mojo - what is MKB Therapy?

Follow the link.

[Allo Allo]

Any reference to back this up? Or are you perhaps confusing electric/magnetic fields with electromagnetic radiation, which we certainly do emit in the infrared part of the spectrum.

They did indeed, and all the evidence shows that they had much shorter lives and higher infant mortality than us modern humans, and died from diseases which today are considered easily treatable minor ailments.

So that placebo thingamabob doesn't appear to have worked too well for them!

Let's see, you're suggesting that placebo is more than just a, um, placebo, that prayer may work..... What are you doing here if not claiming or trying to prove anything? Seeking answers from us? Trolling? I'm not trying to be rude, merely asking for clarification.


Well - perhaps I am "mistaking" a weak field with infrared radiation. I might have misread/misunderstood this as well - "Our calculations of resonance, based upon the power changes within quantitative electroencephalographic measures, suggest that one electromagnetic source of consciousness may actually exist within the 10 cm region outside of and surrounding the cranium." Persinger.

I don't know about placebo - We had already learned to behave in ways that "benefited" us before we became Homo Sapiens - we already know how to walk upright - yes - so I WAS talking much earlier. I wondered if the placebo mechanism (if there is one) "benefited" us. Consider MKB Therapy (I KNOW - you were joking - but many a true word said in jest). It should cause some release of "comfort" hormones in the brain. In the 1970's the experiments with baby monkeys having physical contact with a real "mother" (MKB) led to healthy, active baby monkeys in contrast to the control group of babies that clung to a leather padded tree! - reference can't remember. Elephants "comfort" each other. Mmmm - I was WONDERING if that was an "exchange"! I'm not talking about the psychology of this. Nor anything paranormal. If we discovered chanting, ritual, religion - whatever seemed to "help" then we used the best we had at the time....is what I was saying.

I don't KNOW if prayer works - It would sound ungrateful for me to say it doesn't seeing I have been prayed for by others - I believe I am alive through modern western medicine. All trials are criticised in one way or another.

Yes - I am seeking answers - for ME.

I am not trying to prove anything to YOU, I am investigating MYSELF. I am ignorant of a lot of "facts", I have not studied science or medicine so I am out of my depths. I am richer in "concepts". I have no skill with words as you use them, so I sound brash or woo like (which I don't deny). I am trying to find a place where "scientific" and "woo" might connect. So far I think silence would by the only one.

M

[Allo Allo]

Yes - thanks - from your post I have discovered

this -

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/ns02.htm

and this

http://www.sciammind.com/article.cfm?articleID=00019F6C-E9EC-1329-A41C83414B7F0000

which I can understand because its "layman"

and I want to look at this www.klab.caltech.edu which I suspect I will not understand.

I know its all speculative and hesitated to even post the link. At this point I wasn't doing so to suggest mind affecting anything. I posted the link as an interesting OTHER to "thought being stored in junk DNA"...I'm still reading

M

[Mojo]

Consider MKB Therapy (I KNOW - you were joking - but many a true word said in jest).

Indeed. The point I was making is that many forms of "alternative medicine" appear to operate on precisely the same level as "mummy'll kiss it better", right down to that fact that one of the attractions is that it is claimed that "alternative" therapists give patients more attention than real doctors.

Here's a possible reason for the evolution of the placebo effect: babies cry when they need attention, because they've hurt themselves or are hungry, for example. If the baby continues to cry after receiving attention, there is less reason for the parent to respond in future; the intervention has not had the desired effect. Babies who feel happier and stop crying when attended to are therefore more likely to receive attention when they need it in the future, and so are more likely to survive and pass on the trait for stopping crying when attended to.

[Allo Allo]

I totally agree with your assessment of MKB being what is in touchy feely therapy. I think you are spot on.


Comforted babies - Yes – I agree – but it must be more complex than behavioural. Are animals who look after their young triggered to carry on doing so by some kind of hormonal “brain pleasing” in themselves? Does MKB also make the mother “feel better” too? Then we get back to my other idea of some kind of exchange – even pheremones? – triggering feel better in the giver and receiver of MKB???? ( this is not necessarily a rhetorical question!)

Re:- baby stopping crying because it felt better after MKB if its brain released chemicals/hormones which may or may not be what we perceive today as “placebo”. In the monkey experiments of the 1970’s (I am asking a question here) did they take it that those who had MKB were physically more well because they were psychologically more well. In other words they were studying behaviour, whereas nowadays one might study the effect of MKB in hormonal reactions/signals in the brains of those same monkeys. I dunno – just a thought.

M

[Allo Allo]

There is plenty of evidence that weak magnetic fields can have relatively non-specific effects on neurophysiology.

Other ideas include, free-radicals.

Here I took you to mean magnetic fields affect free radicals? I know they are investingating the effect on free radicle scavengers....tell me please.


This of course has nothing to do with brains receiving information via paranormal means - its just biophysics O0


I am not suggesting paranormal just explicable.

M

[Allo Allo]

Indeed. The point I was making is that many forms of "alternative medicine" appear to operate on precisely the same level as "mummy'll kiss it better", right down to that fact that one of the attractions is that it is claimed that "alternative" therapists give patients more attention than real doctors.

Here's a possible reason for the evolution of the placebo effect: babies cry when they need attention, because they've hurt themselves or are hungry, for example. If the baby continues to cry after receiving attention, there is less reason for the parent to respond in future; the intervention has not had the desired effect. Babies who feel happier and stop crying when attended to are therefore more likely to receive attention when they need it in the future, and so are more likely to survive and pass on the trait for stopping crying when attended to.


On the other hand - you might be simply taking the micky out of me.

M

[Allo Allo]

Indeed. The point I was making is that many forms of "alternative medicine" appear to operate on precisely the same level as "mummy'll kiss it better", right down to that fact that one of the attractions is that it is claimed that "alternative" therapists give patients more attention than real doctors.

Here's a possible reason for the evolution of the placebo effect: babies cry when they need attention, because they've hurt themselves or are hungry, for example. If the baby continues to cry after receiving attention, there is less reason for the parent to respond in future; the intervention has not had the desired effect. Babies who feel happier and stop crying when attended to are therefore more likely to receive attention when they need it in the future, and so are more likely to survive and pass on the trait for stopping crying when attended to.


But then again -

Mother love

http://www.vislab.ucl.ac.uk/pdf/motherlove.pdf



M

[Mojo]

Well, sure, parents like looking after their kids. Otherwise the future of the species would be rather short.

I get a kick out of feeding the cats and hearing the contented guzzling noises. :)

[Mojo]

On the other hand - you might be simply taking the micky out of me.

While I am trying to use humour to get a point across, I'm not taking the micky out of you personally (although I reserve the right to take the micky out of anything you post). ;)

[Admin]

Michelle,

Richard Dawkins is your man. O0

His books The Selfish Gene and The Extended Phenotype explain a lot not only about evolution, natural selection and speciation etc., but also about how animals interact with and affect each other - and the reasons for how it comes about.

Babies have a lot more control over their parents than the parents might think. ???

Seriously, if you're becoming a little more scientific in your thinking these books will really open your eyes. O0

In fact, speaking generally (not aimed at you Michelle), woos and new-agey types think they have an open-minded worldview, but I guarantee that taking on board the sort of knowledge that Dawkins imparts (brilliantly written too I might add) leaves their woolly thinking miles behind.

[Jocky]

Babies have a lot more control over their parents than the parents might think.

Believe me, many parents are under no illusions whatever about the control their babies have over them :-\ And it gets even worse when the babies grow old enough to take advantage of it :scared:

The trouble is, there's nothing you can do about it ...

[Allo Allo]

What are you doing here if not claiming or trying to prove anything? Seeking answers from us? Trolling? I'm not trying to be rude, merely asking for clarification.


Oh - I might be "not quick" on picking up stuff - but this has given me a really good laugh - I didn't know what "trolling" meant - I wondered if it meant "pulling" - which of course is a completely different thing - and as I'm probably old enough to be most people's mother (more probably grandmother!) :'( - thats not my motive! I looked up "trolling"

In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion, including the personal attack of calling others trolls. Often, trolls assume multiple aliases.

My alias is Michelle - a ridiculous member of the resistance in Allo Allo, who always appeared at the most awkward moments and was VERY serious about everything - perhaps this fits me well? I have only one alias. Michelle always used to open her scene with "Listen very carefully - I shall say this only once." I have removed the part about only saying anything once because I am repeating myself.

I have got off track in what I really wanted to know (how magnetic fields/specific visible light frequencies affect us) and so now I am following any lead that anyone gives me on any scientific point on the presumption that people here know more than I do. The placebo thing has been very interesting. I still think it should be used and suggested it's what we found beneficial in our past. I ask whether the use of healing (as practised in reiki/spiritual/hands on/massage etc- which I really do think is MKB) could stimulate a real change in the body. I didn't set out to investigate placebo, but (to my mind at the moment) it brings up other questions. If "feel good" hormones are released as an explanation of placebo (I accept this) then it is something we should USE. I read (but how do I KNOW it's true) that married couples live longer, people with pets live longer (are they healthier?) people who have a "spiritual" practice, like meditation do the same. If this contact/practice causes the release of beneficial hormones regularly, dare I wonder if this could be sustained "placebo"? Maybe having an Indian head massage or aromatherapy or doing reiki on yourself might be considered not so woo?

I don't think I have behaved like an Internet troll - I have been less abusive than you skeps! - but I'm glad I now know what you meant!

M

[Mojo]

I read (but how do I KNOW it's true) that married couples live longer, people with pets live longer (are they healthier?) people who have a "spiritual" practice, like meditation do the same. The question is, assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, are there cause and effect relationships here?

Do people who practice meditation live longer purely because of the meditation, or could it be that people who practice meditation are also more likely look after themselves better in other ways, for example to eat a healthier diet, to drink less, or not to smoke? It could well be a combination of the two factors; I'm quite prepared to believe that anything that makes someone feel less stressed is likely to be beneficial (although to be certain of this I would, of course, prefer a peer-reviewed source, and preferably a controlled and double-blinded trial, although I can see this being difficult to design for something like meditation).

I've read that having a cat sitting on your lap reduces your blood pressure; it is certainly relaxing, as long as claws aren't involved too much. :o

I have also read that married men tend to live longer than single men. Again, there are a number of factors that could be causing this. For example, single men don't have wives telling them to eat a decent diet; they may drink more on average than married men; they may be more likely to smoke, and if they do, less likely to give up; they possibly, when ill, delay longer before seeing a doctor. It would be interesting to see some statistics for this.

[Jocky]

Hi Michelle,


I don't think I have behaved like an Internet troll - I have been less abusive than you skeps!

FWIW, I agree you have not behaved like a troll. You have asked reasonable questions, and have shown an inclination to look into research and attempt experiment - trolls don't do that.

I think wollery was just a bit bemused by the position you appear to have adopted - that placebo can be claimed as a legitimate 'benefit' of alternative medicine and faith healing.

I'm sure nobody here intends any kind of personal abuse. Fallacious arguments are criticised of course, but that is criticism of the argument not the person.

Keep on posting (even if you do say things more than "only once" :) ) - and enjoy the many benefits of learning how to apply critical thinking. This forum has opened my eyes to many things, I'm sure it is doing the same for you. O0

[Mojo]

Hi Michelle,

FWIW, I agree you have not behaved like a troll. You have asked reasonable questions, and have shown an inclination to look into research and attempt experiment - trolls don't do that. I second this.

[Allo Allo]

I went onto http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/ and found a description of "Bowen Technique" - interesting - someone in our village does that - I'd never heard of it - mmm

but this caught my eye about blips and the brain asking something!!

"A Bowen move interrupts this flow and creates a blip, which the brain in turn needs to interpret. In the process of this interpretation, a point of reference is created and blood is sent to nerve endings in the areas being worked. It’s as if the brain is asking "What happened?" and when not given a reasonable answer, tries to recreate the parameters of the move."

Well, sounds gobbleygook but I was reminded of something our dog does. Now this is a SERIOUS question!!! >:(

Our dog has been sick for four years, is almost naked of fur, deaf, miserable and I have been getting up courage to maybe have her put down. Why the above quote reminded me of my dog is because, for four years, we (the vet too) have tried everything in orthodox drugs and diets, allergy reduction (sleeping in dust free environment), food additions,shampoos, pastes, salves. Everytime we tried anything new - the dog would "improve" for about five days. Its like her immune system (I quote!) asks "What happenned?" and when after five days gets bored with the new treatment, reverts back to square one!. I have wondered why there should always be this short lived "improvement"? I am only asking about this period of improvement....dog "diagnosis" not wanted....because we might be onto something that IS actually working...(no skep attack please) two months into new treatment of manuka honey on her food and ground dried cleavers (kill or cure) and her normal steroids. Oh - and a bit of cooked liver. She is sprouting fur and is lively and happy. I don't care what's working - I'm just pleased.

[Allo Allo]

Michelle,

Richard Dawkins is your man. O0

His books The Selfish Gene and The Extended Phenotype explain a lot not only about evolution, natural selection and speciation etc., but also about how animals interact with and affect each other - and the reasons for how it comes about.






Thanks - I'll read. But will I understand ? This will take me a while.

M

[Allo Allo]

Do people who practice meditation live longer purely because of the meditation, or could it be that people who practice meditation are also more likely look after themselves better in other ways, for example to eat a healthier diet, to drink less, or not to smoke? It could well be a combination of the two factors; I'm quite prepared to believe that anything that makes someone feel less stressed is likely to be beneficial (although to be certain of this I would, of course, prefer a peer-reviewed source, and preferably a controlled and double-blinded trial, although I can see this being difficult to design for something like meditation).

I've read that having a cat sitting on your lap reduces your blood pressure; it is certainly relaxing, as long as claws aren't involved too much. :o

I have also read that married men tend to live longer than single men. Again, there are a number of factors that could be causing this. For example, single men don't have wives telling them to eat a decent diet; they may drink more on average than married men; they may be more likely to smoke, and if they do, less likely to give up; they possibly, when ill, delay longer before seeing a doctor. It would be interesting to see some statistics for this.


Yes - all valid points. And yes - I was not precise - it's married men who are supposed to live longer...

M

[Allo Allo]

Re dog post


I regretted posting this because of the "woolly" thinking of it - but I can't find how I could delete it - how do I?

M

[Mojo]

Our dog has been sick for four years, is almost naked of fur, deaf, miserable and I have been getting up courage to maybe have her put down. Why the above quote reminded me of my dog is because, for four years, we (the vet too) have tried everything in orthodox drugs and diets, allergy reduction (sleeping in dust free environment), food additions,shampoos, pastes, salves. Everytime we tried anything new - the dog would "improve" for about five days. Its like her immune system (I quote!) asks "What happenned?" and when after five days gets bored with the new treatment, reverts back to square one!. I have wondered why there should always be this short lived "improvement"?

How big is the apparent improvement? Is it possible that you are feeling hopeful about the new treatment and interpreting the dog's condition as having improved, but then when the apparent improvement doesn't continue you get discouraged again? This is a way some vets I know suggest that the placebo effect may appear to work in veterinary treatments; by working on the owner's expectations and perceptions rather than on the animal. the fact that it seems to have happened every time you tried something new strongly suggests that it is not the specific treatments doing this.

I am only asking about this period of improvement....dog "diagnosis" not wanted....because we might be onto something that IS actually working...(no skep attack please) two months into new treatment of manuka honey on her food and ground dried cleavers (kill or cure) and her normal steroids. Oh - and a bit of cooked liver. She is sprouting fur and is lively and happy. I don't care what's working - I'm just pleased.

Well, in a single case like this, there's no way of knowing: it could be any or none of the things you mention. If your dog is getting better, you might as well carry on with what you're doing as long as it isn't likely to harm the dog (or your bank balance). I'm glad that your dog is getting better.

You can only edit or delete your posts for a certain amount of time after making them. In any case, I don't see anything particularly "woolly" there. You've listed all the things you are doing for the dog and not drawn any conclusions about which, if any, of them is actually causing the improvement. The fallacy people generally fall into in cases like this is to assume that it is the most recently introduced treatment that has been effective. Typically, continuing conventional treatments are not mentioned and any credit is given to the "alternatives".

[Allo Allo]

How big is the apparent improvement? Is it possible that you are feeling hopeful about the new treatment and interpreting the dog's condition as having improved, but then when the apparent improvement doesn't continue you get discouraged again? This is a way some vets I know suggest that the placebo effect may appear to work in veterinary treatments; by working on the owner's expectations and perceptions rather than on the animal.


Yes - that's what I suspected myself - a sort of placebo from our absolute desperation about this dog. It was something I began to think about when we were talking placebo. The apparent improvement in some cases was quite noticeable - and why I thought this was a "woolly" post was because this usually happened when trying a new food or dietry change - I implied it was ANY change - which was wrong. And also - who would be interested in my dog for goodness sake!

We have come to the decision (the vet too) that we must just carry on with what we are doing now - this is no short placebo thing because the improvement is very real and on-going - and surprising. I have been researching Manuka Honey which if used externally is good. But it has all sorts of properties if taken internally too. I know Drug Companies are investigating Cleavers with a view to producing a drug - but I can't wait for that! And liver has selenium in it.

I know steroids have side effects - but I have seen friends transformed by their use. And they are the key to stopping our dog tearing itself to bits. Thank god for steroids!

M

[Admin]

There's a few posts here on electromagnetism: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4140

The last post (currently #6) is interesting but there's no reference to the source material.

[Allo Allo]

Was this no 6 to which you were referring?

“I think this use of magnets has been discredited; but I can't recall the source and I'm not sure everyone got the word. Can anyone else clarify this?

”If it helps, what I remember reading is that the magnetic therapy for fractures involved gently clamping the affected bone in the apparatus. It turns out you get the same result if the magnet is not 'on.' Apparently, the forced immobilization does the job.”

Oooh! I cringe! He should join UK Skeptics where he’d soon learn to post references!!

Maybe he should have read this -

http://magnetotherapy.spellgen.com/MT2003-Holcomb.pdf a 2003 trial (USA)

Or possibly this (2004) USA

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=15055092&dopt=Citation

Of course these above are about using STATIC MAGNETS….

It would be my personal opinion that this chap’s post is an example of a skeptic urban legend being repeated without proper investigation – and is dangerous scepticism. Another example would be James Randi speaking on Sacrocranial Therapy.

Thanks for the link – I enjoyed “thinking it through”.

I was up at 5:00am this morning finishing a print run for a customer…. I’m thinking of going back to bed – or maybe I should just drop my fridge magnet down my jumper and drink a glass of magnetised water!! I think that might make me feel better – don’t you?

M :eek:

[Allo Allo]

There's a few posts here on electromagnetism: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4140



I found this one today http://www.csicop.org/si/2006-04/magnet-therapy.html

He doesn’t actually say how he knows static magnets do not work – I hate this – I am trying to learn here!

When I sprained my wrist, I had ultrasound and also wore two magnets on either side of my wrist – I assumed one magnet was “running” something? to the other through my tissue… Is this crap?

M

[Admin]

He doesn’t actually say how he knows static magnets do not work – I hate this – I am trying to learn here!


To quote from the article:


Some magnet advocates contend that no one has conclusively proven that magnets cannot heal. Of course, they have it backwards. When it comes to healing, the burden of proof is on the seller, not the buyer.

It is up to those who sell or promote magnet therapy devices to show that they work and/or explain how they work.

We can conclude that they don't work simply because when they're tested no effect can be found. It's not really of much use to investigate why they don't work. All we can do is scrutinise claims that are made. Advocates of magnet therapy often state that the magnets attract blood to the area of injury/disease thus promotong healing but it has been shown (think of the MRI example) that magnetic fields do not have an effect on blood. The claim is therefore false.

[Allo Allo]

It is up to those who sell or promote magnet therapy devices to show that they work and/or explain how they work.

We can conclude that they don't work simply because when they're tested no effect can be found. It's not really of much use to investigate why they don't work. All we can do is scrutinise claims that are made. Advocates of magnet therapy often state that the magnets attract blood to the area of injury/disease thus promotong healing but it has been shown (think of the MRI example) that magnetic fields do not have an effect on blood. The claim is therefore false.


If a seller/manufacturer tested his own magnets he would be accused of bias!

Also - I put in some nice links to UP TO DATE trials on STATIC MAGNETS that do NOT show they don't work! Did you check them out?

http://magnetotherapy.spellgen.com/MT2003-Holcomb.pdf a 2003 trial (USA)

Or possibly this (2004) USA

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=15055092&dopt=Citation

Of course these above are about using STATIC MAGNETS….in a medical setting...

Sorry I can't do my new "link" skill that ~I'm learning, but I am at work today!

M

[Cuddles]

If a seller/manufacturer tested his own magnets he would be accused of bias!

And yet even with that bias they still can't produce any results that support them. Pretty telling really.

[tkingdoll]

If a seller/manufacturer tested his own magnets he would be accused of bias!



Not at all - do you think drugs companies don't test their own drugs?

[Allo Allo]

They DO! Yes.

Mmmm :o

[Admin]

If a seller/manufacturer tested his own magnets he would be accused of bias!

Also - I put in some nice links to UP TO DATE trials on STATIC MAGNETS that do NOT show they don't work! Did you check them out?

http://magnetotherapy.spellgen.com/MT2003-Holcomb.pdf a 2003 trial (USA)

Or possibly this (2004) USA

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=15055092&dopt=Citation

Of course these above are about using STATIC MAGNETS….in a medical setting...

Sorry I can't do my new "link" skill that ~I'm learning, but I am at work today!

M


Well I could go on to say that with a trial size of 29 that the trial no statistical power etc. but I'll concentrate on another problem.

When looking for evidence for/against things there will always be a multitude of small trials like this one which show positive effects (the negative ones tend not to get published - Publication Bias (http://www.ukskeptics.com/explanation.php?dir=articles/explanations&article=publication_bias.php)).

It then becomes a question of whether you want to accept that a lot of poor quality trials are meaningful or not.

Personally I don't think they are. Unfortunately, it's often difficult to find large scale quality trials on things like magnet therapy because no-one's interested in doing the research. They've been around a long time and there really isn't anything to explain.

For argument's sake, let's assume that they work at the same level as acupuncture appears to. i.e. the pain relief is equivalent to taking a couple of paracetamol. Is it really worth making a song and dance about these things?

With a lack of any coherent theory behind these things coupled to the fact that they don't give consistent results, it's fair to conclude that they are really just placebos.

We have to be careful about confirmation bias when looking at such evidence. We may just be too keen to read too much into it.

[Mongrel]

Personally I don't think they are. Unfortunately, it's often difficult to find large scale quality trials on things like magnet therapy because no-one's interested in doing the research. They've been around a long time and there really isn't anything to explain.


Also if the manufacturers were genuinely interested in proving that magnets\homeopathy\herbal supplements really worked they'd put a bit more money into doing proper, robust clinical trials. Not a quick questionare by the consultants at the out patient section

And before it's brought up - the mainstream alternative market is worth billions per year, they could afford a few simple trials.

In my eyes (and it may well be a logical flaw), their refusal to do any solid research is just another way of them saying "We know there's nothing to it"

[Allo Allo]

Mongrel and John,

I think the idea of using static magnets anyway has been superseded by using pulsed magnetic fields and ultrasound.

Oh - and my favourite - pulsed visible light!

M :D