Hallucinogens and the Paranormal

[median]

I was going to post this in the newly created section (thanks John) but thought better of it for the time being.

Are people more likely to believe in paranormal if they have taken hallucinogenic drugs (cannabis, LSD) or less likely?

I was thinking that if someone had experienced a drug related episode that bore certain paranormal experiences would they interpret subsequent ambiguous experiences pro (as in this seems be further evidence of a higher reality) or anti (as in the brain has perceived this sort of thing before and accomodated a new experience referencing the memory of the drug induced experience)?

[Dr B]

There is some evidence that excessive use can induce neural changes in connectivity and this can lead to irrational attributions associated to the hallucination. Most drug users know their hallucinations are not real.....but this can be a temporary state of affairs in some cases... 8)

[Dr B]

In addition, some drugs are known to influence the parts of the brain used in reality monitoring, conflict monitoring, problem solving etc. So with prolonged use the brain starts to lose its ability to distinguish between reality and illusion - and in excessive cases - the person ceases to care!!!!

[Jocky]

I was thinking that if someone had experienced a drug related episode that bore certain paranormal experiences would they interpret subsequent ambiguous experiences pro (as in this seems be further evidence of a higher reality) or anti (as in the brain has perceived this sort of thing before and accomodated a new experience referencing the memory of the drug induced experience)?

First up, I will confess to some flirtation with hallucinogenic drugs when I was a student :D :-[ I find it quite an educational experience in retrospect - although I'm not so sure that I'd have still done it, if I'd known everything then that I know now ...

You would think that people who have taken such a drug and then stopped to think about it afterwards would actually have an increased awareness of how easily human senses can be fooled, and would therefore be less likely to interpret a superficially inexplicable event as paranormal. Certainly had that effect on me.

(Obviously this would not apply to those unfortunates who have practiced substance abuse to the point of brain damage, or to strange folk who who went into it believing that drugs facilitate perception of 'higher planes' or somesuch nonsense.)

OTOH, the same argument ought to apply to anybody who has been baffled by a stage magician - that too is a salutary lesson in the unreliability of unwary human perception. However, given that this is practically a universal experience, I fear that most seem to miss this obvious lesson :(

[median]

You would think that people who have taken such a drug and then stopped to think about it afterwards would actually have an increased awareness of how easily human senses can be fooled, and would therefore be less likely to interpret a superficially inexplicable event as paranormal. Certainly had that effect on me.


That's exactly what I would have thought, too. It is interesting to note what Dr B has stated too. That the long term habitual usage tends to blur these distinctions.

I have also experience of 'friends' ??? that have taken LSD and report an 'all-knowing state', a fundamental connectedness of things or being at the brink of some 'great knowledge'. So it goes beyond the idea of hallucinations (in fact the term hallucination can be misleading in that participants often do not see 'what is not there'.

[Jocky]

an 'all-knowing state', a fundamental connectedness of things or being at the brink of some 'great knowledge'

Yes, I recall feeling something quite similar. Not a hallucination strictly speaking - but IMO definitely a delusion, albeit quite a thought-provoking and (kinda) pleasant one.

It may also come of listening to too much Pink Floyd ;D

[median]

One can never listen to too much Floyd ???

[Outsider]

I have also experience of 'friends' ??? that have taken LSD and report an 'all-knowing state', a fundamental connectedness of things or being at the brink of some 'great knowledge'. So it goes beyond the idea of hallucinations (in fact the term hallucination can be misleading in that participants often do not see 'what is not there'.

Similarly, I know people who have used drugs to, in their opinion, 'open the gateway' to the paranormal. ::)

The feeling of being on the brink of some universal knowledge is also attributed to some sufferers of temporal lobe disorders, which as I have been led to understand, contributes to their belief in god and/or the paranormal.


One can never listen to too much Floyd

Personally, I hold Pink Floyd responsible for the fact that I failed all my O levels, (apart from Art of course) ;D

[Dr B]

I understand ketamine can be more powerful than LSD for truly spiritual experiences. Karl Jansen developed a Ketamine-inspired model for NDEs and its one I have a great deal of time for (though he seems to have changed his mind somewhat).

Here is a basic guide to the idea (and I mean basic ;D)

One of the most prominant receptors in the brain is the NMDA receptor. This can be activated by both chemical and ionic interactions - but it is a main acting site for glutamate. This is a complex receptor with many different 'docking bays' for different substances. However, one of them is for Phencyclidine (or PCP as its better known). Basically, Ketamine is known to act via gating to the PCP-site - this can trigger strong hallucinations.

The big question is - why does the brain have receptors which have hallucinatory consequences? Also, this must imply that the brain is more than capable of producing its own hallucinatory substances endogenously. Jansen noted one substance - alpha-endopsychosins which was hypothesised to be produced by the brain during seizure.

So basically, the brain starts to seize, and can, in extreme circumstances start a process of excitotoxicity (cell death) where it stimulates itself to death (this is mediated by the excitatory neurotransmitter - glutamate). However at some point a protective counter-flood of endopsychosins are produced which activate cells with NMDA receptors (most have them) and close them off to the effects of the toxic flood of glutamate. This then, protects the cells from dying.

However, a consequence of this protective mechanism is that as the endopsychosins bind to PCP sites - hallucination can occur....

Ketamine is known to be protective if given to patients during or soon after a stroke in some cases - so the model - at least for ketamine seems well supported.
I think the next generation of 'Pink Floyd' followers may well be taking Ketamine more than LSD for its more potent and meaningful experiences. O0

Hope this was not too off-tangent ;)

(PS - the existence of endopsychosins has been questioned and some researchers have identified other substances instead - but the principle is the same)

[kath23]

Ketamine is known to be protective if given to patients during or soon after a stroke in some cases


Are you sure :o I'd love some links to studies etc. Sure you don't mean asprin? :D

[Araneus]

The big question is - why does the brain have receptors which have hallucinatory consequences?

Presumably the hallucinations are the result of normal brain pathways being stimulated in abnormal ways -- in the same way that dragging magnets across a CRT causes it to display strange patterns. One wouldn't say that this is a quirk or problem with the CRT, rather it is just an interaction between the normal mechanism of function and a very abnormal stimulus.

[Dr B]

Are you sure :o I'd love some links to studies etc. Sure you don't mean asprin? :D


eerrrr quite sure thanks. Its not used so much now for a variety of reasons, including the hallucinations - but there is reasearch on protective ketamine effects (see Jansen's work or google for it) O0

I dare say other substances are now used.

[Dr B]

Presumably the hallucinations are the result of normal brain pathways being stimulated in abnormal ways -- in the same way that dragging magnets across a CRT causes it to display strange patterns. One wouldn't say that this is a quirk or problem with the CRT, rather it is just an interaction between the normal mechanism of function and a very abnormal stimulus.


You miss my point - sorry for not being clearer. The question is the right one to ask as it is still not fully understood. Also, it is not clear what endogenous compounds do bind to the PCP site under excitotoxicity. One suggestion was given above - but it was controversial and I do not think that study was replicated. We know the brain would not develop a receptor unless there was a substance to bind to it.....but what it is, is still unclear (though some candidates are currently being explored).

Your other suggestions are exactly the sort of thing I have been developing for about 15 years now - a kind of normal system being aggravated or responding to abnormal circumstances. This forms a central tenet of one of my central "hallucinations in the normal brain" approaches.

Your CRT example is nice - but we dont know in the brain as to what represents the magnet or indeed (as i prefer to think about it) what factors (plural) can have that effect on the neural processes - as there is likely to be more than one O0

[median]

We know the brain would not develop a receptor unless there was a substance to bind to it.....

Just a quick question of a teleological nature but is that entirely true? Is it not possible that certain structures have evolved in parallel with others but possess a complete lack of utility (in terms of doing anything useful within the brain)?

[Dr B]

None that we know of. We might expect the receptor to be present - but not work properly (for example) - but this does not really happen.

The brain is unlike the body in the sense that it undergoes a massive evolution within a lifetime. If it was redundant, and had been for hundreds of years, its unlikely it would be so prevalent .

The NMDA receptor is perhaps the most numerate of all in the cortex. They are also predominant in certain sub-cortical regions like the hippocampus (very seizure prone region). It seems odd that this receptor site 'does nothing'

Indeed, some of the evidence suggesting that other chemicals bind to it (endogenous chemicals) show that its highly unlikely to be a redundant by-product etc.

I am quite convinced that the NMDA-PCP complex, and its malfunction, could be central to understanding many psychoses and altered-states. It makes a great deal of sense, neuroanatomically, neurophisiologically, functionally, etc.

edit - my only worries have been that evidence for these endogenous substances has, until late, been long speculated but thin. Matters are changing however

[Cuddles]

The NMDA receptor is perhaps the most numerate of all in the cortex.

Some typos make me giggle.

Carry on.

[Dr B]

sorry...it is the old 'typing at 100 miles a hour when i have so many other things to do' syndrome...... O0

;D for those who have not spotted it - for numerate - read numerous. I dont think NMDA receptors do math..... :D

[Dr B]

You know it raises some interesting questions. What if the neuro-protective mechanisms malfunction in certain brains and hallucinatory counter-floods are produced in situations where there is no major threat to neurons? It may occur during mild seizure, or even during no seizure at all (in extreme cases).

This means that the NMDA-PCP complex may become activated erroneously. The outcome might range from mild distortions in awareness to full-blown hallucination (possibly interpreted as a sensed presence, apparitions, OBEs, and so on). It is a thought worth considering and one I have been exploring for sometime.

[median]

If these were endogneous causes then surely these 'episodes' could occur at any time and at any location, not solely confined to 'haunted premises'.
Unless, of course, environmental triggers such as reduced sensory input or chronobiological effects (night-time experiences)
Speaking of this, wasn't there some literature that recorded hallucinations in individuals kept in a sound/sight deficient environment? ???

[Dr B]

If these were endogenous causes then surely these 'episodes' could occur at any time and at any location, not solely confined to 'haunted premises'.
Unless, of course, environmental triggers such as reduced sensory input or chronobiological effects (night-time experiences)
Speaking of this, wasn't there some literature that recorded hallucinations in individuals kept in a sound/sight deficient environment? ???
.

No - I disagree. Firstly, often places get a reputation for a haunting based on one experience, or the same person having multiple experiences. Under these circumstances it fits. Secondly, often with numerous experiences from different people we do not need to assume they are all similar reports or even related - indeed, this is exactly what I find (so you may not need to apply it in all cases). Thirdly, surveys of hallucinations in the normal population show a far higher 'hit' rate than surveys of anomalous reports. So why do these people not attribute them as haunting / paranormal? Well, thats a different issue and question - the point for the present discussion is that such experiences can occur, do occur, and are predicted to some degree by the idea. There could be many reasons underlying different experiences at the same location.

I agree also that environmental triggers and internal triggers can be crucial in some cases. There is a certain form of epileptic seizure that can also be brought on by the patient having a particular thought....showing that internal context can trigger seizure, that then triggers aura / hallucination.

Obviously my suggestions are not an explanation for all experiences (and I have never proposed them as so) - but I do believe it has merit, particularly in extreme cases O0.