Is there any kind of rationale behind reflexology?

[DrS]

I'm currently getting what sounds like a load of twaddle about reflexology, but don't have any sort of ammunition. I'm aware of the basic ideas, which I have never credited, that the body is supposedly mapped out on the foot, and that practitioners can identify (do they claim to heal?) where their patient has a problem from close handling and massage of the foot.

What I'm hearing now, however, is about reflexology in pregnancy, labour and childbirth. Specifically that there are three points on the feet that have to be avoided in reflexology sessions during pregnancy because they cause spontaneous abortion. On the contrary, naturally, they are the points to work on during a delayed birth or to induce labour.

I found it incredible before. Now it sounds even more outlandish, and possibly even dangerous. Is there any sort of rationale behind these ideas at all?

[lost thought]

Tickle my feet and I will laugh and squirm then kick you, It's ok its only a reflex.:cheesy:

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Haven't a clue about this stuff, and I'm not sure I want to acquire one. However, I found this:
http://www.babyworld.co.uk/information/pregnancy/health/reflexology.asp#is


However, some reflexologists will not treat a pregnant woman during the first trimester. The Association of Reflexologists (AOR) says that this is due to a misplaced patient fear that reflexology may cause a miscarriage.

It's good to know that the fear is misplaced. Otherwise we should have to advise pregnant women to wear thick-soled shoes and avoid walking on cobblestones. :smiley:

[polomint38]

A foot massage is nice and relaxing, but that's as far as it goes.

I do offer cheap foot massages to all UKS users except polomint38 (I've seen those feet and do not wish to touch them) for a cheap £60 per session.

[bindeweede]

One reason foot massage may be so pleasurable and is associated with significant improvement in mood is that the area of the brain that connects to the foot is adjacent to the area that connects to the genitals. There may be some neuronal overlapping. Neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran writes of a person whose leg was amputated and who experienced orgasms in his phantom foot (1998: 36-37). “The genitals are right next to the foot in the body’s brain maps,” he notes, and speculates that this fact may account for foot fetishes.

Not really what DrS was referring to, so sorry for the digression.

http://skepdic.com/reflex.html

[DrS]

Not really what DrS was referring to, so sorry for the digression.Interesting nonetheless! :cheesy:

The genitals are right next to the foot in the body’s brain mapsNot the most accurate map then ... :undecided:

[bindeweede]

Interesting nonetheless! :cheesy:
Not the most accurate map then ... :undecided:
DrS

Pure coincidence, but I am reading the book I think was referred to in the Skepdic article - "Phantoms in the Brain". I have almost finished it, and fascinating it is - how the brain can be tricked into things - weird perceptions - wouldn't even try to condense. The book was on a list recommended by DrB.

Sorry, I am digressing.

[Floppit]

DrS

Pure coincidence, but I am reading the book I think was referred to in the Skepdic article - "Phantoms in the Brain". I have almost finished it, and fascinating it is - how the brain can be tricked into things - weird perceptions - wouldn't even try to condense. The book was on a list recommended by DrB.

Sorry, I am digressing.

I loved that book!

When I was pregnant I read that you shouldn't massage the bit of skin inbetween your thumb and hand (the webby bit - not THAT webby, I'm not a duck!), it was supposed to bring on labour. They also said to avoid reflexology. It was in the book 'What to Expect When You're Expecting' which was sold as written by doctors etc - god, it was cr@p. A friend gave me 'What to Expect in the First Year' which I actually put in the bin rather than gave to the charity shop because I thought it was so bloody awful I didn't want to play a part in anyone else reading it.

I could be accused of contempt prior to investigation though because I've never bothered to look up whether there was any evidence.

Just to letting you know I think it's quite a common belief.

[Pebble]

Perhaps a tiny bit embarrassing this, given where it was publsihed:


Complement Ther Med. 2000 Sep;8(3):166-72. Links
Comment in:
Complement Ther Med. 2000 Sep;8(3):149.
A blinded investigation into the accuracy of reflexology charts.

White AR, Williamson J, Hart A, Ernst E.
Department of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine and Health Studies, University of Exeter, UK. a.r.white@exeter.ac.uk
OBJECTIVES: Reflexology is an increasingly popular complementary therapy in which parts of the body are deemed to be represented on the soles of the feet. The aim of this study was to investigate whether this representation can be used as a valid method of diagnosis. METHODS: Three experienced reflexologists took part in this study. Eighteen adults with one or more of six specified conditions were identified from primary care records. Two reflexologists, who were blinded to the patients' conditions and monitored, then examined each patient's feet and rated the probability that each of the six conditions was present. RESULTS: There is little evidence that the distribution of ratings vary with the status of the condition. Receiver operating curves suggest that this diagnostic method is very poor at distinguishing between the presence and absence of conditions. Inter-rater reliability (kappa) scores were very low, providing no evidence of agreement between the examiners. CONCLUSION: Despite certain limitations to the data provided by this study, the results do not suggest that reflexology techniques are a valid method of diagnosis. Copyright 2000 Harcourt Publishers Ltd.

Since then most publications are to say the least on soft targets:

[Effect of acupuncture combined with massage of sole on sleeping quality of the patient with insomnia]
Zhong ZG, Cai H, Li XL, Lü D.
Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2008 Jun;28(6):411-3. Chinese.

The effects of foot and facial massage on sleep induction, blood pressure, pulse and respiratory rate: crossover pilot study.
Ejindu A.
Complement Ther Clin Pract. 2007 Nov;13(4):266-75. Epub 2007 May 8.

Partner-delivered reflexology: effects on cancer pain and anxiety.
Stephenson NL, Swanson M, Dalton J, Keefe FJ, Engelke M.
Oncol Nurs Forum. 2007 Jan;34(1):127-32.

etc.

[DrS]

Thanks Pebble. As I suspected, I must say. Embarrassing indeed! >:D

[chaggle]

Sorry, all. Just me being fick I expect. What is embarrassing?

[DrS]

I took it as the fact that it was research carried out by a Complementary Medicine Dept for publication in Complement Ther Med. Presumably better results were hoped for?

[chaggle]

I took it as the fact that it was research carried out by a Complementary Medicine Dept for publication in Complement Ther Med. Presumably better results were hoped for?

OK. I don't know what Complement Ther Med. is - they might well have been embarassed but...



White AR, Williamson J, Hart A, Ernst E.
Department of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine and Health Studies, University of Exeter, UK


I don't think Edzard Ernst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst)would have been embarassed at all

[DrS]

I don't think Edzard Ernst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst)would have been embarassed at all
Thankyou for that! Great ammunition. O0

[JJM]

Have you seen the episode of "Thin Blue Line" in which the ever-suffering sergeant (Whatshername) takes a reflexology class and shows the chart to Chief Inspector Fowler? He studies it and remarks that it does not indicate what to do if the problem is actually in his foot.

[DrS]

There's an answer to that given Bindeweede's first post above but I dare not post it! ;D

[chaggle]

Sorry about the long bump

I was (ahem!) discussing reflexology last night and I was pointed at this (http://www.reflexology-research.com/control.htm) as being proof of it's efficacy. Any comments?


Controlled Studies in Reflexology

by Barbara & Kevin Kunz, Reflexology Research Project

[Pebble]

Mental retardation
Results of study: Mentally retarded children were shown to improve significantly in height, weight, health states, social living abilities, and intellectual development when receiving foot reflexology as opposed to those not receiving treatment.
Lingyun Zhao; Yang Yuru, Feng gu; Jiamo, Hao; Shuwen, Cao and Xiulan, Zhang, "Observation on Improvement of Feeble-Minded Children's Social Abilities by Foot Reflexo-Therapy," 1998 China Reflexology Symposium Report, China Reflexology Association, Beijing, pp. 24 - 28


What more needs saying?

Poorly controlled or uncontrolled studies, small numbers, mainly soft endpoints, non credible outcomes - which largely have not been repeated by independent studies.

[chaggle]

I really must learn to cast a more critical eye over this kind of stuff before bothering you with it. Thanks.

[special_k]

Perhaps a tiny bit embarrassing this, given where it was publsihed:


Complement Ther Med. 2000 Sep;8(3):166-72. Links
Comment in:
Complement Ther Med. 2000 Sep;8(3):149.
A blinded investigation into the accuracy of reflexology charts.

White AR, Williamson J, Hart A, Ernst E.
Department of Complementary Medicine, School of Postgraduate Medicine and Health Studies, University of Exeter, UK. a.r.white@exeter.ac.uk
OBJECTIVES: Reflexology is an increasingly popular complementary therapy in which parts of the body are deemed to be represented on the soles of the feet. The aim of this study was to investigate whether this representation can be used as a valid method of diagnosis. METHODS: Three experienced reflexologists took part in this study. Eighteen adults with one or more of six specified conditions were identified from primary care records. Two reflexologists, who were blinded to the patients' conditions and monitored, then examined each patient's feet and rated the probability that each of the six conditions was present. RESULTS: There is little evidence that the distribution of ratings vary with the status of the condition. Receiver operating curves suggest that this diagnostic method is very poor at distinguishing between the presence and absence of conditions. Inter-rater reliability (kappa) scores were very low, providing no evidence of agreement between the examiners. CONCLUSION: Despite certain limitations to the data provided by this study, the results do not suggest that reflexology techniques are a valid method of diagnosis. Copyright 2000 Harcourt Publishers Ltd.

Since then most publications are to say the least on soft targets:

[Effect of acupuncture combined with massage of sole on sleeping quality of the patient with insomnia]
Zhong ZG, Cai H, Li XL, Lü D.
Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2008 Jun;28(6):411-3. Chinese.

The effects of foot and facial massage on sleep induction, blood pressure, pulse and respiratory rate: crossover pilot study.
Ejindu A.
Complement Ther Clin Pract. 2007 Nov;13(4):266-75. Epub 2007 May 8.

Partner-delivered reflexology: effects on cancer pain and anxiety.
Stephenson NL, Swanson M, Dalton J, Keefe FJ, Engelke M.
Oncol Nurs Forum. 2007 Jan;34(1):127-32.

etc.
Tut-tut, drawing conclusions from the abstract, you should know better.

The only thing I conclude from this abstract is that it was a rubbish study, based on a dodgy premise, by researchers who appear to have failed to grasp the basis of the thing they are testing. If I was in the market for a reflexologist I think I would choose to go elsewhere, perhaps to somebody who realised medical methodology works within a particular paradigm (it does).

Tried to get the full article, but it's pay-only. Anyone here have it? I'd be especially interested in the 'conditions' under test.

[special_k]

Beyond that, for the more interested, who seek to understand before seeking to debunk, can I suggest there may be some sense in the following:

Every part of the body is represented in every other part, there is enough information in each cell (most of them) to code for a whole person. The body is not put together brick-by brick, but grows outwards from a 'seed' (embryo) much as a crystal does. Hence, there is a fractal nature to our construction.

Every part of the body is influenced in some way by the brain, in turn the mapping of the body in the brain is fractal in nature, memory and control is processed in a holographic system.

That's a start, give it another 5 centuries and there may be enough flesh on that for the more hard core among you to think it has something.

[Pebble]

Tut-tut, drawing conclusions from the abstract, you should know better.

The only thing I conclude from this abstract is that it was a rubbish study, based on a dodgy premise, by researchers who appear to have failed to grasp the basis of the thing they are testing. If I was in the market for a reflexologist I think I would choose to go elsewhere, perhaps to somebody who realised medical methodology works within a particular paradigm (it does).

Tried to get the full article, but it's pay-only. Anyone here have it? I'd be especially interested in the 'conditions' under test.

What conclusion was draw? - or does the word 'perhaps' not exist in your world.

I am puzzled by your objection. If reflexologists claim to be able to diagnose, then presented with those with firm diagnoses, they should perform better than chance at acheiving this - ala Adrian Pengelly.

[panama]

it's the same shit and rationale as acupuncture.

[special_k]

What conclusion was draw? - or does the word 'perhaps' not exist in your world.

I am puzzled by your objection. If reflexologists claim to be able to diagnose, then presented with those with firm diagnoses, they should perform better than chance at acheiving this - ala Adrian Pengelly.
To limit the effect of counfounding variables in a study on kites, you must test them without the string and on calm days.

In other words, the design of the study MUST reflect some understanding of the way the kite is supposed to work, otherwise it's truly stupid.

[special_k]

In this instance, suppose one of the conditions is 'headache', there may be literally dozens of causes of headache, involving any system of the body.

I repeat, the only thing I can determine is that this is a rubbish study, because it is taking an understanding of jet planes and applying it to kites. Saying that the same approach should logically apply to anything that flies is a fallacy.

If those present can't see this (or won't see this) then to me that says more about them than it says about refelxology.

Just HOW rubbish it is can only be determined by reading more of the study.

[Harryprice]

Every part of the body is influenced in some way by the brain, in turn the mapping of the body in the brain is fractal in nature, memory and control is processed in a holographic system.

Do you have any links to papers showing body mapping is fractal and memory holographic, please? I couldn't find any. Thanks.

[jimwalsh]

"a pretty girl massages your foot you feel better"

[Matt]

To limit the effect of counfounding variables in a study on kites, you must test them without the string and on calm days.

In other words, the design of the study MUST reflect some understanding of the way the kite is supposed to work, otherwise it's truly stupid.

I like it. I can clearly see why testing kites without string or on clam days would fail.

I clearly know a little more about kite than I know about reflexology.

can you explain what it was about studies of reflexology which is not in keeping with the way reflexology is typically practice and how that would be expected to affect the results.

[Pebble]

I repeat, the only thing I can determine is that this is a rubbish study, because it is taking an understanding of jet planes and applying it to kites. Saying that the same approach should logically apply to anything that flies is a fallacy.

If those present can't see this (or won't see this) then to me that says more about them than it says about refelxology.

Just HOW rubbish it is can only be determined by reading more of the study.


So you can reliably detect that a study is rubbish from the result!

Lets get specific then:



Neck pain Back pain Osteoarthritis Migraine Diabetes Sinusitis
of knee

Number of times diagnosis
was possible 16 14 18 14 6 4
Diagnoses made
definite (>95%) 2 0 0 1 0 0
probable (80–94%) 2 1 2 0 1 0
Total correct positive diagnoses 4 1 2 1 1 0



"The protocol for the investigation was established
principally in consultation with the second author
(JW) who has been practising reflexology for 10
years and teaching the subject for 5 years. Two additional
reflexologists were recruited from among her
colleagues, one of whom had at least 5 years’ practical
and teaching experience, the other of whom is a
practitioner of 2 years’ standing; both accepted the
protocol. All three practitioners were familiar with
the same, standard, reflexology chart.4 Six medical
conditions were chosen which the reflexologist considered,
from her experience, could be detected
most easily and reliably. Three conditions were chosen
in each of two categories representing two
slightly different methods of obtaining information:
three painful conditions which are identified by tenderness
at the single corresponding position in the
foot, i.e. neck pain, back pain and osteoarthritis of
the knee; and three ‘metabolic’ conditions which are
identified from changes at more than one site, i.e.
migraine, diabetes mellitus and sinusitis."


Other than observing that the 'experts' including one who directly influence the conditions chosen for testing, fared no better than chance at reachin the diagnosis - what more do you not need to know to confirm that the study was rubbish?

[special_k]

So you can reliably detect that a study is rubbish from the result!
No, from the premise. You obviously can't see the premise, in the same way that fish can't see water.

[Pebble]

No, from the premise. You obviously can't see the premise, in the same way that fish can't see water.


"Six medical
conditions were chosen which the reflexologist considered,
from her experience, could be detected
most easily and reliably."

If this is not a premise, it is difficult to think what is!

[special_k]

The premise is that medical differential diagnosis is a universally accepted system of indisputable validity and applicability.

So let's see, taking the first on the list. Causes of neck pain...
First 5 that spring to mind - tumours, muscle spasm, torticollis, ear infections, fracture, that's just for starters.

Backpain can be caused by any sytem of the body, structural causes alone could fill up a whole textbook.

Hence what is listed as one condition could be any number of other conditions.

Migraine - there are as many different descriptions of migraine as there are sufferers practically, all with their different triggers and symptoms. How many different causes and conditions could be described as 'migraine'? Conveniently lumped together so that doctors know which specialist to refer to , but not really understood.

Diabetes mellitus, that's harder, but without further reading this is at least 2 conditions, but cause includes diet, autoimmunity, genetics and so on, several distinct systems of the body, in fact.

So what is being tested here is not the ability of the practitioner to make sense of the state of the subjects physiology; but their ability to put the manifestations of those dysfunctions into the right bracket within a non-rational classification according to a very particular philosophical discipline, namely medical diagnosis.

Hence I have suspicions about the acumen of the pracitioner in making such a claim to begin with, as I have said.

[Pebble]

You are obviously missing the point deliberately. These conditions were chosen by a reflexologist as those they could most reliably diagnose. If they cannot diagnose back pain etc., but only the individual pathologies that might lead to back pain etc., then this option was open to them when designing the trial.
If you are claiming that your expertise is in diagnosing actual pathology, then this makes designing a robust trial even easier - say the word.

[special_k]

You are obviously missing the point deliberately. These conditions were chosen by a reflexologist as those they could most reliably diagnose. If they cannot diagnose back pain etc., but only the individual pathologies that might lead to back pain etc., then this option was open to them when designing the trial.
I agree completely, as I have said several times now this paper says more about the brains of the team involved, and about those who place store by this kind of mismatched trial design, than it says about reflexology.

[special_k]

If you are claiming that your expertise is in diagnosing actual pathology, then this makes designing a robust trial even easier - say the word.
Just out of interest, how good are blood-tests, MRI scanners and pathologists at finding the causes of neck pain, back pain, or migraine?

Is there a hospital in the world that can diagnose 'migraine' or 'back pain', without asking the patient about their symptoms? And should we apply this same test to medical diagnosis, would the outcome be a fair assessment of the philosophy of medicine?

I would suggest that any doctor who agrees to this test would be an idiot, I would not advocate the demolition of hospitals on that basis.

[special_k]

If you are claiming that your expertise is in diagnosing actual pathology, then this makes designing a robust trial even easier - say the word.
Just to be clear, cause and pathology are not synonymous. Clearly any thoroughly investigated problem that remains 'idiopathic' is without pathology. That is where the usefulness of medical differential diagnosis ends.

Fill that gap and there would be no market for reflexologists or chiropractors, I suggest that this is the vast majority of presentations, it is western medicine's greatest area of neglect, and perhaps opportunity.

[Matt]

Just out of interest, how good are blood-tests, MRI scanners and pathologists at finding the causes of neck pain, back pain, or migraine?


As good as they claim to be. Which in the not acting in a fraudulent manner stakes, is rather important don't you think?

[Matt]

I like it. I can clearly see why testing kites without string or on clam days would fail.

I clearly know a little more about kite than I know about reflexology.

can you explain what it was about studies of reflexology which is not in keeping with the way reflexology is typically practice and how that would be expected to affect the results.

I see you ignored my question but gave an answer to Pebble which will suffice.


The premise is that medical differential diagnosis is a universally accepted system of indisputable validity and applicability.

So let's see, taking the first on the list. Causes of neck pain...
First 5 that spring to mind - tumours, muscle spasm, torticollis, ear infections, fracture, that's just for starters.

Backpain can be caused by any sytem of the body, structural causes alone could fill up a whole textbook.

Hence what is listed as one condition could be any number of other conditions.

Migraine - there are as many different descriptions of migraine as there are sufferers practically, all with their different triggers and symptoms. How many different causes and conditions could be described as 'migraine'? Conveniently lumped together so that doctors know which specialist to refer to , but not really understood.

Diabetes mellitus, that's harder, but without further reading this is at least 2 conditions, but cause includes diet, autoimmunity, genetics and so on, several distinct systems of the body, in fact.

So what is being tested here is not the ability of the practitioner to make sense of the state of the subjects physiology; but their ability to put the manifestations of those dysfunctions into the right bracket within a non-rational classification according to a very particular philosophical discipline, namely medical diagnosis.

Hence I have suspicions about the acumen of the pracitioner in making such a claim to begin with, as I have said.


So your gripe is not with the scientific process but the conditions which the reflexologist tested, claimed to be able to diagnose.

You seem to claim that it's ridiculous that the reflexologist would be able to diagnose these conditions.

In this matter we agree, although for different reasons. However yuou leave on part of my question unanswered.

Do you suggest that the diagnostic claims of this particular reflexologist are not typical of the profession or is your criticism of this part of the experiment to be taken as damning of reflexology in general.

[special_k]

Do you suggest that the diagnostic claims of this particular reflexologist are not typical of the profession or is your criticism of this part of the experiment to be taken as damning of reflexology in general.
I've no idea whatsoever, I'm a general scientist not a reflexologist.

[Matt]

I've no idea whatsoever, I'm a general scientist not a reflexologist.

So if you were to find out that this reflexologist's claims were typical of the profession then you'd accept that the only manner in which this study was flawed is that it set its sights on something as patently ridiculous as the typical claims of reflexology practitioners, which we both agree are non-sensical?

[special_k]

So if you were to find out that this reflexologist's claims were typical of the profession then you'd accept that the only manner in which this study was flawed is that it set its sights on something as patently ridiculous as the typical claims of reflexology practitioners, which we both agree are non-sensical?

A few too many leaps there. I'm saying I don't confuse the views of one practitioner with EITHER the views of a whole profession, OR the premise of the discipline. These are 3 seperate things.

Sorry if I've offended the researcher concerned, but there is a lot of bad research about, some worse than others, but beginning with a flawed research question is irredeemable.

[Matt]

A few too many leaps there. I'm saying I don't confuse the views of one practitioner with EITHER the views of a whole profession, OR the premise of the discipline. These are 3 seperate things.

Potentially. However the premise of the discipline would certainly be one of the views of the profession as a whole and the particular reflexologist in question might be quite representative of the profession. As such all three of these potentially different things might coincide.

Now I asked you if you thought the diagnostic claims of this particular reflexologist were representative and you said you had no idea.

Given that you appear to be starting from a blank slate would you be surprised to find that...

"The theory is that following illness, stress, injury or disease, the body is in a state of "imbalance", and that vital energy pathways are blocked, preventing the body from functioning effectively. Reflexology may be used to restore and maintain the body's natural equilibrium and encourage healing.

A Reflexologist uses hands only to apply pressure to the feet. For each person the application and the effect of the therapy is unique. Sensitive, trained hands may detect imbalances in the feet, and by working on these points the Reflexologist can release blockages and restore the free flow of energy to the whole body. "

Those are the words of the "Association of Reflexologist (http://www.aor.org.uk/index.php?page=what-is-reflexology)s"


Sorry if I've offended the researcher concerned, but there is a lot of bad research about, some worse than others, but beginning with a flawed research question is irredeemable.

It is in fact a unifying concept throughout the field of reflexology that if someone had neck pain (no matter the cause) the reflexology should detect an imbalance in a particular location on the feet.

According to this chart it looks like the green ellipse just below the big toe relates to the neck.

http://www.reflexology.org/images/detailed_images/DSCF9092%20copy.jpg

Now it's conceivable that under such circumstances sensitive, trained hands may detect "imbalances" (whatever they might actually be) in precisely that location. It's also conceivable that sensitive, impressionable minds may imagine they detect these imbalances where they expect to after having already been told that the patient is suffering from neck pain.

Now if I wanted to tell which of these conceivable scenarios was closer to actual reality I can think of no better way than that mentioned. I'm sure that if you could think of a better way you'd be making more constructive forms of criticism.

I mean maybe if there was some objective way of imaging or measuring this "energy" we could locate the imbalances through some other method and determine if there was indeed a special mapping between zones of the foot and the rest of the body.

However we can't. Would you recommend that we simply state that something that can only be detected by "sensitive trained hands" probably doesn't exist or do you have a better way of checking up on the matter?

Personally I think that asking the reflexologists themselves what they claim is the difference between a real phenomenon and their imagination (the ability to locate unknown health issues by detecting imbalances on the feet), is a fair way to try to confirm these premises.

But hey if you think the study was idiotic then that can only be because you think that the answers the reflexologist gave were at fault. As you can now see these answers are not only representative of the disciple but fundamental to it.

[Harryprice]

I've no idea whatsoever, I'm a general scientist not a reflexologist.

I hope you don't mind my asking but are you actually employed as a scientist? If so, in what field, please?

[special_k]

Nice extrapolation, but extrapolation is dangerous as you know. You'd need to test that theory by interviewing many refelxologists. I'm not in a position to speak for them, nor do I have any reason to.

The words of the spokes-person may well be watered down for public consumption, in my experience small associations are often fronted by largely self-appointed officals. Reflexology has very ancient roots, I am sure that description changes with time, and is placed in context of the society viewing it, even now I suspect reflexologists are arguing bitterly about these issues, as any healthy profession tends to do.

Likewise, a definition of medicine changes with time, a quick search produces definitions leaning heavily on treatment with drugs and surgery, in fact this is a relatively recent perspective in history. There was a time when medics shunned surgery as dirty work, the pharmaceutical model was solidified in American policy after 1910, but prior to that there were over 2000 different systems in the USA that were described as 'medicine'.

It would be interesting if the AMA put on the front page of their website a column called 'what is medicine?'. How would it read? Would doctors agree?

[special_k]

I hope you don't mind my asking but are you actually employed as a scientist? If so, in what field, please?
No, I'm an international man of mystery.

[Harryprice]

No, I'm an international man of mystery.

It's just that you describe yourself as a general scientist when all the ones I know specialise ...

[Croydon Bob]

It's just that you describe yourself as a general scientist when all the ones I know specialise ...

A low-level pass in GCSE science?

Special_k's refusal to accept evidence, and reliance on garbage he just invented, isn't what one usually expects from a scientist. Although there are a few nutters with genuine qualifications out there.

[Matt]

Nice extrapolation, but extrapolation is dangerous as you know. You'd need to test that theory by interviewing many refelxologists. I'm not in a position to speak for them, nor do I have any reason to.


Except you have taken it upon yourself to do exactly that: speak for the reflexologists.

You suggest that detecting the location of an ailment from the examination of the feet might not be fundamental tenet of reflexology and yet when challenged on this in the face of authoritative evidence to the contrary you squirm.

I don't know why these alternative therapies hope to claim roots in ancient wisdom. I expect they think there's some kudos to having withstood the test of time that counteracts the idea that the wisdom they pretend to hail from delivered life expectancies a fraction of ours and horrific morbidities. Yet it's clearly a conceit. They may well find reference to or an ancient picture of foot massage but the fundamentals of reflexology were laid down within living memory. The sources are clearly laid out and it's not difficult to see that Eunice Ingham's 1983 book "Reflexology The stories feet can tell" is where we can first see reflexology laid out as it is today with clear roots drawn from Zone Therapy. It where we first see the foot map I showed above.

In this book, the foundation of reflexology she talks about detecting deposits on the foot and this corresponding to a physical ailment in a remote organ.

[special_k]

Except you have taken it upon yourself to do exactly that: speak for the reflexologists.
No, I'm calling for a sober appraisal of the evidence, I couldn't care less about reflexology.

[special_k]

I don't know why these alternative therapies hope to claim roots in ancient wisdom. I expect they think there's some kudos to having withstood the test of time that counteracts the idea that the wisdom they pretend to hail from delivered life expectancies a fraction of ours and horrific morbidities. Yet it's clearly a conceit.
Nevertheless Doctors still swear on Hippocrates, or should that be Hypocrites?

[Matt]

No, I'm calling for a sober appraisal of the evidence, I couldn't care less about reflexology.

The evidence is clear. A reflexologist cannot demonstrate an ability to detect the location of an ailment from examining the feet.

Your criticism of this appears to be that this might possibly not be what reflexologists claim to do. You don't realy know or care whether they claim it or not but you're suggesting the possibility that the reflexologist who participated in the study, the association representing the profession and the initial book which defined reflexology - might all be wrong about what it is that constitutes reflexology. As such you're suggesting the scientists tested the wrong thing but you have no suggestions for an improved test.

Is that about right?

[Matt]

Nevertheless Doctors still swear on Hippocrates, or should that be Hypocrites?

Do they still do that? How quaint.

[special_k]

The evidence is clear. A reflexologist cannot demonstrate an ability to detect the location of an ailment from examining the feet.
Appraising evidence means appraising its quality, as well you know.

[Matt]

Appraising evidence means appraising its quality, as well you know.

Why don't you then?