Infrasound therapy

[keveen]

Does anyone know of any evidence relating to the use of infrasound therapy on people? I recently discovered and bought an ultrasound device which seems to work on my knee but now I'm reading of yet another miracle cure - aren't they all! However, I'll try anything as long as it is not going to kill me off!

[Matt]

However, I'll try anything as long as it is not going to kill me off!

Will you try sending a thousand pounds in cash to my PO box? Or do I have to make up some plausible sounding reason...

[dalriada]

Ultrasound is a recognised and evidence-based treatment for a variety of conditions. I have not heard of the use of Infrasound treatment but a search google scholar for "infrasound therapy" revealed just a paltry 12 articles, either inconclusive, ancient or non-peer reviewed.

So, on that basis I wouldn't spend money on infrasound or expect it to be better than placebo (But there probably is someone in Liverpool Hope "University" willing to tell you that infrasound is the cure for everything from flatulence to death.....;))

[Pebble]

Pubmed 17/03/2009

Number of randomised controlled trials on infrasound in clinical practice = 0
Number of pilot trials in clinical conditions on infrasound = 0
Number of case reports of clinical use of infrasound = 0

Conclusion - evidence base = 0

[skbuncks]

Im taking it that this is the sort of thing in question:

http://www.toplinewellness.com/infrasound_therapy.htm

There is the usual claim of scientific proof....


Scientific research has determined that normal healthy living cells emit frequencies of sound in the alpha range, between 8 and 14 hertz. The human body and specifically the hands of Asian "Chi gong masters" have been demonstrated in the laboratory to be natural alpha wave generators. These alpha wave's are considered to be the optimum frequency for healing and tissue recovery. Alpha waves are also associated with relaxation, and super learning. When our pets are affected by illness, injury , trauma or stress, the cells in their bodies begin to degenerate and produce frequencies outside of their healthy, alpha range. If we infuse our pet's body with these gentle low frequency, biocompatible, alpha sound waves they create healing harmonic vibrations that re-energize, and recharge the injured tissue and the animal begins to heal and feel better.


....but with no references to back it up. It sounds nice and scientific but is actually BS.
For instance alpha waves are electromagnetic waves and arise from electrical impulse in the brain. They are NOT sound waves, but DO oscillate at a similar frequency (20 Hz for alpha waves, 8-12Hz for infrasound).

Wiki has a nice little page on Infrasound (http://Infrasound) which may shed some light on why it has been adopted intp the woo clan


Infrasound has been known to cause feelings of awe or fear in humans.[14] (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/#cite_note-13)[unreliable source? (http://www.ukskeptics.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources)] Since it is not consciously perceived, it can make people feel vaguely that supernatural (http://www.ukskeptics.com/wiki/Supernatural) events are taking place.

The lack of any sound evidence base puts it into firmly into the 'ineffective miracle cure, lets con money out of unsuspecting people' category for me.

skb

[skbuncks]

Does anyone know of any evidence relating to the use of infrasound therapy on people? I recently discovered and bought an ultrasound device which seems to work on my knee but now I'm reading of yet another miracle cure - aren't they all! However, I'll try anything as long as it is not going to kill me off!

Hi keveen,

Out of curiosity what is the problem you are having with your knee and when you say this device has 'worked' what exactly do you mean? Can you describe any feelings you may have whilst using it

skb

[Trinoc]

Infrasound is just low-frequency vibration, so this device seems like a personal massager to me. Massage is a perfectly valid treatment for minor musculo-skeletal problems, and it might even help in more serious healing by exercising the tissues, provided that it doesn't disrupt them faster than the healing process.

I don't think the skeptic knee-jerk reaction of automatically debunking it with the usual objections is really much help here.

[skbuncks]

Infrasound is just low-frequency vibration, so this device seems like a personal massager to me. Massage is a perfectly valid treatment for minor musculo-skeletal problems, and it might even help in more serious healing by exercising the tissues, provided that it doesn't disrupt them faster than the healing process.

I don't think the skeptic knee-jerk reaction of automatically debunking it with the usual objections is really much help here.

I agree with your second sentence, however, the evidence that infrasound can be used for massage is where exactly?

If this indeed how the device is intended to work then why couch it in such a psuedoscientific manner?

What have alpha waves got to do with infrasound?

Where is the evidence that Chi/Qi gong masters can generate alpha waves, or even infrasound through their hands?

Where is the evidence for any of these effects:



1 - SLEEP - includes Delta range frequencies and is most effective for Chronic or traumatic injury, acute conditions, and degenerative processes where activation of subcellular organisms is needed to catalyze healing.
2 - PAIN - is most effective when applied locally for dissolving dysfunctional somatic memory, for inflammation, edema, stress, and the chronic results of intracellular trauma. Applied over heart, on bottom of feet, or with sweeping motions along the body. Individual results for pain relief will vary.
3 - FULL - For best results in accelerated recovery, use the FULL setting. The FULL setting combines all of the three signals of our previous model Infratronic 8 and also signals to relax tight muscles, uplift intention, reduce physical pain and reduce worry.


http://www.braintuner.com/qgm.htm

skb

[skbuncks]

[Effects of infrasound therapy on proliferation, apoptosis and ultrastructure of human B lymphoma Raji cells]

[Article in Chinese]


Bao Y (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Bao%20Y%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Fan JZ (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Fan%20JZ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Li K (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Li%20K%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Li C (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Li%20C%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Yang JF (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Yang%20JF%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Rehabilitation, Nanfang Hospital, Southern Medical University, Guangzhou 510515, China.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of infrasound therapy on the proliferation, apoptosis and ultrastructure of human B lymphoma Raji cells. METHODS: Human B lymphoma Raji cells were exposed to infrasound treatment for 15, 30, 60, 90 and 120 min and cultured subsequently for 24 or 48 h. MTT assay, flow cytometry analysis, and electron microscopy were performed to examine the proliferative status, cell apoptosis and ultrastructural changes of the exposed cells, respectively. RESULTS: MTT assay revealed no significant changes in the proliferation of the cells exposed to infrasound treatment (P>0.05), nor did flow cytometry analysis identified significant variation in the cell apoptosis (P>0.05). Scanning electron microscopy, however, identified shortened or reduced cell processes and microvilli on the surface of the cells with infrasound exposure and a subsequent 24-hour culture, and the cell membrane surface became smooth. Under transmission electron microscope, the cells with infrasound treatment presented with significantly reduced microvilli, and the cell nuclei appeared homogeneous, with cytoplasmic budding and losses after a 48-hour culture. CONCLUSION: Infrasound less than 90 dB does not obviously affect the proliferation and apoptosis of Raji cells, but may directly cause cell ultrastructural changes such as reduction of the cell processes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18583273 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18583273)

Full text (in chinese, my browser will not display the fonts but the results tables and graphics can be viewed)

http://www.jfmmu.com/pdf2/200806/2008061093.pdf


[Observation of the L929 cell membrane after infrasound exposure with atomic force microscope]

[Article in Chinese]


Wang BS (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Wang%20BS%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Chen JZ (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Chen%20JZ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Liu B (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Liu%20B%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Li L (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Li%20L%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Yi N (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Yi%20N%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Liu J (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Liu%20J%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Zhang S (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Zhang%20S%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Physiotherapy and Rehabilitation, Xijing Hospital, Fourth Military Medical University, Xi'an 710032, China.
OBJECTIVE: To observe the changes of L929 cell membrane with atomic force microscope (AFM) after infrasound exposure and to explore the mechanisms of effect of infrasound on cell membrane. METHODS: After primary culture, the L929 cells were exposed to infrasound with intensity output of 130 dB and frequency of 16 Hz 2 hours each day for 3 days. The subsequent changes in the membrane of the control cells and the cells exposed to the infrasound were determined by nano-scale scanning with AFM. RESULTS: After infrasound exposure, the normal prominence of the membrane became short and the dent became shallow in the 7.5 microm x 7.5 microm and 4.0 microm x 4.0 microm photographs. The prominence appeared as cobblestones. The surface of the membrane became smooth. CONCLUSION: The membrane structure of the L929 cells can be changed by infrasound exposure with intensity of 130 dB and frequency of 16 Hz. The change might be one of the characteristics of effect of infrasound on cell membrane.

Pubmed link (http://Pubmed link)

[Effects of infrasound on ultrastructure of testis cell in mice]

[Article in Chinese]


Wei YN (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Wei%20YN%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Liu J (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Liu%20J%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Shu Q (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Shu%20Q%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Huang XF (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Huang%20XF%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Chen JZ (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Chen%20JZ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Genetics and Developmental Biology, Xijing Hospital, Fourth Military Medical University, Xi'an, Shanxi 710033, China. weiyaning@sina.com.cn
OBJECTIVES: To investigate the effects of infrasound on ultrastructure of testis in mouse. METHODS: Twelve male BALB/C mice were randomly divided into three groups according to exposed duration on 1, 7 and 14 day. The mice were separately exposed to infrasound environment under 8 Hz/90 dB, 8 Hz/130 dB, 16 Hz/90 dB, 16 Hz/130 dB 2 hours per day. There was another control group which had three mice were separated into module with no infrasound. All the mice were killed on schedule. Then all the sections of testis were observed under electronic microscope. The alterations of structure and the chromatin were observed. RESULTS: Some acute alteration in one day group was found in testis cell, such as cellular denaturation and necrosis, intercellular edema, mitochondria swelling, liposome hyperplasia. When the infrasound was up to 8 Hz/130 dB, the damage showed seriously. In 7 and 14 day group, the acute alteration was gradually decreased. A plenty of abnormal sperm were found. And other alteration was chromatin condense. The effect of variational frequency was important in ultrastructure. CONCLUSIONS: The infrasound markedly effected to testicular cell morphology and secreting function. Infrasound will lead to the alteration of procreation in mouse.


[Effects of infrasound on ultrastructure of testis cell in mice]

[Article in Chinese]


Wei YN (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Wei%20YN%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Liu J (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Liu%20J%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Shu Q (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Shu%20Q%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Huang XF (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Huang%20XF%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Chen JZ (http://www.ukskeptics.com/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Chen%20JZ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Genetics and Developmental Biology, Xijing Hospital, Fourth Military Medical University, Xi'an, Shanxi 710033, China. weiyaning@sina.com.cn
OBJECTIVES: To investigate the effects of infrasound on ultrastructure of testis in mouse. METHODS: Twelve male BALB/C mice were randomly divided into three groups according to exposed duration on 1, 7 and 14 day. The mice were separately exposed to infrasound environment under 8 Hz/90 dB, 8 Hz/130 dB, 16 Hz/90 dB, 16 Hz/130 dB 2 hours per day. There was another control group which had three mice were separated into module with no infrasound. All the mice were killed on schedule. Then all the sections of testis were observed under electronic microscope. The alterations of structure and the chromatin were observed. RESULTS: Some acute alteration in one day group was found in testis cell, such as cellular denaturation and necrosis, intercellular edema, mitochondria swelling, liposome hyperplasia. When the infrasound was up to 8 Hz/130 dB, the damage showed seriously. In 7 and 14 day group, the acute alteration was gradually decreased. A plenty of abnormal sperm were found. And other alteration was chromatin condense. The effect of variational frequency was important in ultrastructure. CONCLUSIONS: The infrasound markedly effected to testicular cell morphology and secreting function. Infrasound will lead to the alteration of procreation in mouse.

pubmed (http://pubmed)

skb

[skbuncks]

The obvious conclusions from the above studies is that all the claims of this site are fully justified

http://soundvitality.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=57

:cheesy:

[Pebble]

The obvious conclusions from the above studies is that all the claims of this site are fully justified

http://soundvitality.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=57

:cheesy:


These con artists obviously learnt from Lincoln, but only part of the quote: "...some of the people all of the time, ..." That is all they need to become rich.

[Trinoc]

That's better ... some actual evidence that this stuff is being promoted with paranormal claims. My issue with the original responses was that they appeared to be the standard answers given to anyone who asks about a treatment that isn't part of the drugs and surgery culture of conventional medicine - in other words "it must be bunk - don't bother to look any further". It doesn't seem to help much if the only places a person can go for answers are places which have an axe to grind either for or against all forms of unconventional medicine, without discrimination.

[Pebble]

That's better ... some actual evidence that this stuff is being promoted with paranormal claims. My issue with the original responses was that they appeared to be the standard answers given to anyone who asks about a treatment that isn't part of the drugs and surgery culture of conventional medicine - in other words "it must be bunk - don't bother to look any further". It doesn't seem to help much if the only places a person can go for answers are places which have an axe to grind either for or against all forms of unconventional medicine, without discrimination.


Misses the whole point.

The initial question was straight-forward, is there any evidence of benefit? This was answered with evidence of the 'absence of published evidence' end of story.
The subsequent information dug up by sb raises further questions about how this is being promoted, that takes us in a different direction.

[Trinoc]

Misses the whole point.

The initial question was straight-forward, is there any evidence of benefit? This was answered with evidence of the 'absence of published evidence' end of story.
The subsequent information dug up by sb raises further questions about how this is being promoted, that takes us in a different direction.
Well, I can't speak for the original poster, but if it had been me then I would only have posted the query if I had a genuine interest in the subject, and the first few dismissive responses would probably have made me think I had wasted my time asking.

[Pebble]

Well, I can't speak for the original poster, but if it had been me then I would only have posted the query if I had a genuine interest in the subject, and the first few dismissive responses would probably have made me think I had wasted my time asking.

Can't see what the problem is. We are asked if there is any evidence for this 'treatment' there is not, this answer is given. What do you want a load of spectulation on what the potential for this approach is if the preclinical and cell based studies turned out to be reproducible in clinical tests? Not really skepticism is it?

The danger with such speculation is that when this is handed over to advertisers, the cautions and subleties all dissappear. So speculation is fine in private, where one is designing studies to test a particular hypothesis, and then published with the actual findings, but is simply asking for trouble when performed as an unsupported postulation, that can then be used to sell rubbish.

[dalriada]

Well, I can't speak for the original poster, but if it had been me then I would only have posted the query if I had a genuine interest in the subject, and the first few dismissive responses would probably have made me think I had wasted my time asking.

Well I'm not going to disagree that there can be a "knee jerk skeptic" response to some of the queries posted here, but I will disagree that this was the case in this instance. Both Pebble and I posted an assessment of the evidence of infrasound therapy for knee-injuries (ie none) and there wasn't much more to be said beyond that great big nothing... The additional articles posted later are "evidence" but not of a kind relevant to the original question- any effects of infrasound effects at the cellular level in mice in labs does not equate to actual therapy, in humans,to help their sore knees.

[keveen]

Thank you for the replies - I'm glad my query provoked a good argument;)

My interest in alternative therapies is the result of a split Meniscal cartilage (ouch!) and the total inability of medical science to do anything but cut me open and cut bits out (still waiting!) - which is just about the state of the NHS with some exceptions. Many of the new procedures seem to be coming from private sources - obviously stimulated by rich people around the world who can afford the fees! There are in fact new and promising procedures - namely, a meniscal implant and possible stem cell implants (from your bone marrow) that can regrow cartilage after the surgical cartilage trimming.

Because pain killers were pretty useless I decided to try a TENS machine and that helped which has led on to an interest in other electotherapy treatments starting with my father's ancient ozone/heat generating something called a "magic wand" that generates a scary Tesla coil type electrical current in a glass tube that you then rub over the affected part if you dare. It's been around for decades. It broke down so not able to test it properly.

Ultrasound is a well established tool in a physiotherapists armoury and apparently infrasound has been used effectively on horses(!) for decades as well. Neither device "cures" and certainly doesn't mend broken bones and torn cartilage but the general purpose is very similar: to get heat to the injury, to stimulate and increase the blood supply to the affected area, to switch on the brain to that area and generally allow your own immune system to work more efficiently. I bought an ultrasound device from Ebay (of course!) and it does generate heat into the affected area which no amount of massage can do because it penetrates a few centimetres below the surface. - More here - ( I have a wiki site but not allowed to post yet)!

Infrasound penetrates clothing, bandages etc and its additonal claim to fame is that it can harmonise and stimulate on a cellular level. Whether that can be proven or not I don't know but there is a science of frequencies that cells and the body (and brain of course) generate. I'm open minded about it. It's true it's hard to find hard science but that is the fault of science. "Scientists" can't even agree on the best electric toothbrush! Infrasound claims to have similar effects to ultrasound but with this additional "curative" claim that ultrasound promoters do not really claim.

I'm sceptical and open minded and since these devices are now getting cheaper (£35 for ultrasound) it's easy to experiment on oneself! Because I'm on a fitness kick right now I'm finding that ultrasound really does help with more benign aches resulting from too much effort. The proof is in the pudding as they say!

However, the lack of scientific study is shocking. I think it is because medics want us to remain disempowered and ignorant (often unconsciously). I've just bought an Ultrasonex Single Phaser Electric Toothbrush - ahem - getting to be an obsession..:cheesy: and I'm thinking about the Boots "Intrasound" ie infrasound, device they sell. Again, no real science is on offer from Boots but they will have tested it carefully for harmful effects, obviously, to avoid compensation claims.

I'm building up the proff links but I can't post my site yet!!

[skbuncks]

Keveen, I think you would be well served if you were to read the following link...

http://sram.org/0302/bias.html

...and then get back to us with your thoughts.

skb

[Croydon Bob]

Infrasound penetrates clothing, bandages etc and its additonal claim to fame is that it can harmonise and stimulate on a cellular level. Whether that can be proven or not I don't know but there is a science of frequencies that cells and the body (and brain of course) generate. I'm open minded about it. It's true it's hard to find hard science but that is the fault of science. "Scientists" can't even agree on the best electric toothbrush! Infrasound claims to have similar effects to ultrasound but with this additional "curative" claim that ultrasound promoters do not really claim.

Harmonise and stimulate on a cellular level? Come on! You know that's crap. What does it even mean?

Infrasound is just sound below the normal range of human hearing. It is around us all the time, generated by all manner of things natural and artificial. Elephants can hear infrasound. You have failed to provide any evidence; a) that it cures anything, and b) how it could do so even if it did.

How is anything "the fault of science"? Is science a person? No. Science is the method of acquiring knowledge. If some mumbo-jumbo scam doesn't have any hard science to back it up that is not the fault of science.

If it is true that "Scientists can't even agree on the best electric toothbrush", what relevance does that have to the cost of butter?

I'm currently in pain because of a cracked rib. It's really pissing me off and making me grumpy (can you tell?). The fact that real medicine and science is unable to provide a quick-fix solution for my problem does not mean that some "alternative" nonsense can fix me. Sometimes you just have to live within, or even die within, the limits of reality.

[skbuncks]

....I'm currently in pain because of a cracked rib. It's really pissing me off and making me grumpy (can you tell?).....

I have an 'miracle cure' that may be able to help you..

http://thecabinetofcuriosities.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/web-panacea.jpg

...simply send £500 via weston union money transfer to account:

419-000-419

akb

[bindeweede]

Dear Mr Bob Croydon

I would like to offer you treatment, via telepathy, of my newly discovered ( about 3 minutes ago actually) incredible healing process - HOTS! That is my
Hypasound Orgone Theraputic System. Guaranteed to cure over 100% of everybody's problems, it has been presented to me by my Spirit Guide -
Tarquin, a former lavatory attendant from Cleckheaton who passed into spirit last Monday.

I can do emails if you wish. Prepayment required - £30 per minute, but you simply won't believe the benefits (well, not quite as much as my bank balance will).

HQB

[skbuncks]

Dear Mr Bob Croydon

I would like to offer you treatment, via telepathy, of my newly discovered ( about 3 minutes ago actually) incredible healing process - HOTS! That is my
Hypasound Orgone Theraputic System. Guaranteed to cure over 100% of everybody's problems, it has been presented to me by my Spirit Guide -
Tarquin, a former lavatory attendant from Cleckheaton who passed into spirit last Monday.

I can do emails if you wish. Prepayment required - £30 per minute, but you simply won't believe the benefits (well, not quite as much as my bank balance will).

HQB

Bhah, put your faith not in worthless placebos and the snake oil of charlatans. I offer to you the elixir of life, the distilled ambrosia of ancient gods imbued with the healing properties of the pudentic excresions of ten thousand prophets. GUARANTEED to cure all ailmets of the spirit and body. This elixir constitutes the growth of the finite ethemeral spirit of the very inifinite lifes blood of the eternal spirit which lies within the reach of those how seek to discard the discord of their mortal coil and embrace the holistic panacerism of Dr Spunes universal elixir of life.
This is a once in a life-time opportunity available to you, and you only (because your special) through the power of weatern union money transfer.
You first course is available for the paltry sum of £500, with subsequent course available at the reduced rate of £666.
Celestial denizens of the highest chorus of heazen will individually bless each and every tincture to ensure that the minimum of 100 course are all that are required to ensure your presence at the turn of the next millenium.

Please forward all payments ot western union account number 419-000-419.
Note there is no need to enclose your delivery address as through divine provedence we already know where you abide

skb

[keveen]

The Panacea Pills look just the thingO0

There seems to be a lack of science here! The therapeutic effects of ultrasound are as stated and well known - simply the ability to get an enriched blood supply to a particular area of soft tissue and to generate heat in a particular area. When you can see my links(barred because of this daft forum rule) you can trace the evidence. It's just a tool. Also, heat and relief is not imaginary. And so called "placebo effects" only show how much latent mind power we have to heal ourselves if we could control it. I'm astonished at the power of my mind that brings relief and the ability to walk properly while I'm waiting for my arthroscopy! I'm well aware of placebo effects and very happy with the results...:smiley: It's obvious no-one posting has ever used or had ultrasound therapy for an injury. Of course it wouldn't be the only treatment provided by a physiotherapist. How do you think footballers often recover so quickly (although I suspect a hand-picked sultry maiden massager might also be one of the secrets;)).

"Science" is a method that can be as faulty and has been as faulty as any other method. Red wine is good for us and then bad for us and then good for us. Each conclusion "proven" by scientific method. So what do you believe? While reading I discovered that just a decade of so ago medical science thought our meniscal cartilage was just a vestige that could safely be removed altogether! I find that unbelievable and almost defying common sense. Then (of course) they discovered that the victims had accelerated osteoarthritis! Science, common sense and self-experimentation is a pretty good method for most of us I suggest.

Skepticism just means taking "claims" with a huge pinch of salt but can also lead to a state of absurdity when you can doubt your own existence unless you can provide proof. Descartes said that because he could think that proved he existed? Oh, yeah! How do you know you are not asleep and you are just dreaming all this?;D The theory of germs was only posited not proven but the result was that drinking boiled water rather than street pump water stopped cholera in the UK in the 19th century. At the time sceptics thought the idea ridiculous. Logic and experimentation achieved the required result - no cholera if you only drank beer or boiled water. If they had waited for 100% scientific proof thousands of people would have continued to die.

Also all cells do emit "frequencies" and you can explode them with high frequency ultrasound. The US military has experimented with both ultrasound and infrasound as a weapon and apparently the Nazis used infrasound to try to disorientate crowds and to make them angry - it seemed to work (OK not serious...) Your brain does produce "alpha waves" and of course can be effected by noise = frequencies and soothed by other types of frequences = certain music.

I still can't find any real evidence about infrasound therapy though, except that it works on horses!

[keveen]

A quote which says it better than me:


The direct therapeutic value of ultrasonic waves lies in their mechanical nature. They are shock waves, just like audible sound, and vibrate the materials through which they pass. These vibrations are mild, virtually unnoticeable at the frequencies and intensities used for imaging. Properly focused however, high-intensity ultrasound can be used to heat and physically agitate targeted tissues.


High-intensity ultrasound is used routinely to treat soft tissue injuries, such as strains, tears and associated scarring. The heating and agitation are believed to promote rapid healing through increased circulation. Strongly focused, high-intensity, high-frequency ultrasound can also be used to physically destroy certain types of tumors, as well as gallstones and other types of calculi.

I'd forgotten about gallstones - could there be amore obvious example of current medical use! - Doh!

[Trinoc]

Just to pick up on one small area ... nothing can "emit" a frequency. Frequency is an abstract description of how often a repeating process repeats itself. If you mean a cell is emitting something like sound or electromagnetic radiation of a particular frequency, please point to some evidence for this. Other than black body thermal radiation at a temperature of 37C, I am not aware of any such emissions.

[keveen]

Just to pick up on one small area ... nothing can "emit" a frequency. Frequency is an abstract description of how often a repeating process repeats itself. If you mean a cell is emitting something like sound or electromagnetic radiation of a particular frequency, please point to some evidence for this. Other than black body thermal radiation at a temperature of 37C, I am not aware of any such emissions.

This is getting a bit silly. Ever heard of radio frequencies and tuning into a frequency! If I start on micro-defintions of everything I'll end up like the science I'm reading! (Of course all necessary in their world). "Frequency" of course is used in its oscillating sense. It is not just an abstract. Try telling that to electrical engineers. Crystals emit frequencies. Frequencies as in oscillations, Mhz, electric currents::) - it's all related. On How Stuff works the How Quartz Watches Work page has a nice description of the kind of technology used to generate ultrasound and infrasound in the first place. Your body and brain emits frequencies and electrical energy. The definitions I need are the ones translated into language normal can understand which is what the quote was doing (not mine).

Besides the original post was jsut to see if there was any real hard evidence from real scientists about the therapeutic effects of an infrasound device - there is a lot on ultrasound, some on infrasound and almost nothing on intrasound. The technology that produces the necesary sound is apparently quite simple. I don't really care - I'm only interested in the executive summaries:smiley: and actual real people's experiences.

[Pebble]

I still can't find any real evidence about infrasound therapy though, except that it works on horses!

And your evidence base for this is? Note, lots of things are used in horses without any evidence of benefit.


Skepticism is about looking at the evidence dispassionately, not "taking "claims" with a huge pinch of salt".

It is quite possible to use things that are not evidence based and still be a skeptic, so long as you do not claim things like -"Infrasound penetrates clothing, bandages etc and its additonal claim to fame is that it can harmonise and stimulate on a cellular level." One would simply state that there is no evidence and if it does work the mechanism is unknown, but that as nothing else has worked to date you are giving it a try.

[Trinoc]

This is getting a bit silly. Ever heard of radio frequencies and tuning into a frequency! If I start on micro-defintions of everything I'll end up like the science I'm reading! (Of course all necessary in their world). "Frequency" of course is used in its oscillating sense. It is not just an abstract. Try telling that to electrical engineers. Crystals emit frequencies. Frequencies as in oscillations, Mhz, electric currents::) - it's all related. On How Stuff works the How Quartz Watches Work page has a nice description of the kind of technology used to generate ultrasound and infrasound in the first place. Your body and brain emits frequencies and electrical energy. The definitions I need are the ones translated into language normal can understand which is what the quote was doing (not mine).
No it is not getting silly, it is a perfectly valid point. Crystals do not spontaneously emit "frequencies", or energy of any kind, other than the black body radiation I mentioned earlier (and which all objects emit). A properly prepared crystal can resonate at a particular frequency when excited by an electric field, and this is used to regulate watches etc. However, even in this case, the crystal is a net absorber of energy (the energy is converted into heat) - the point about the resonance is that it absorbs less energy at the resonant frequency, so the amplification of the associated circuit can be set so as to oscillate only when the absorption is low, i.e. at resonance.

You could as easily say that a ruler held over the edge of a table emits "frequencies" ... when in fact all it can do is resonate briefly when twanged.

So, in your view, what sort of energy is a cell emitting at the frequencies you describe, and what is the range of frequencies of the energy emitted?

[chaggle]

Other than black body thermal radiation at a temperature of 37C, I am not aware of any such emissions.


the black body radiation I mentioned earlier (and which all objects emit).

I don't know anything about this. Please point me at something I can read.

[Trinoc]

I don't know anything about this. Please point me at something I can read.
Just normal heat radiation, like you get from sunlight or any hot object. An ideal radiator is also an ideal absorber (hence "black"). The frequency spectrum of the radiation follows a well-defined curve dependent only on the temperature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body_radiation

Or Google (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=all&num=100&q=+%22black+body+radiation%22&btnG=Search&meta=)

[skbuncks]

The Panacea Pills look just the thing
Yep, and have just as much supporting evidence as to their efficacy as does infrasound


There seems to be a lack of science here!
For infrasound yes, there is a lack of scientific evidence.


The therapeutic effects of ultrasound are as stated and well known - simply the ability to get an enriched blood supply to a particular area of soft tissue and to generate heat in a particular area.
Indeed. However, this thread concerns infrasound and not ultrasound. They are two different things.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Ultrasound_range_diagram.png


When you can see my links(barred because of this daft forum rule) you can trace the evidence.
The 15 post rule is to prevent spamming of the site.


It's just a tool. Also, heat and relief is not imaginary. And so called "placebo effects" only show how much latent mind power we have to heal ourselves if we could control it.
That is not an accurate description of the placebo effect. Placebos have no curative powers. They can be, however, effective for the control of pain.


I'm astonished at the power of my mind that brings relief and the ability to walk properly while I'm waiting for my arthroscopy! I'm well aware of placebo effects and very happy with the results...
Sarcasm has no place in a serious discussion. Now, about those Panaceas mentioned earlier….


It's obvious no-one posting has ever used or had ultrasound therapy for an injury. Of course it wouldn't be the only treatment provided by a physiotherapist. How do you think footballers often recover so quickly (although I suspect a hand-picked sultry maiden massager might also be one of the secrets ).
This is a thread about infrasound and not ultrasound.


"Science" is a method that can be as faulty and has been as faulty as any other method. Red wine is good for us and then bad for us and then good for us. Each conclusion "proven" by scientific method.
There can be both beneficial and detrimental effects from drinking red wine. It boils down to a question of dose. Oxygen is essential for life yet put me in a pure oxygen environment over an extended period of time and I will suffer neurological damage. Its science which tells us both the what and why.


So what do you believe? While reading I discovered that just a decade of so ago medical science thought our meniscal cartilage was just a vestige that could safely be removed altogether! I find that unbelievable and almost defying common sense. Then (of course) they discovered that the victims had accelerated osteoarthritis!
You should note that it was medical science, and not any CAM practitioner, that discovered the role of the meniscal cartilage. It was scientific studies which determined the risk/benefit ratio of their repair/removal. No one is forcing to have yours removed.


Science, common sense and self-experimentation is a pretty good method for most of us I suggest..
Science, yes. Common sense, maybe. Self experimentation, no.


Skepticism just means taking "claims" with a huge pinch of salt but can also lead to a state of absurdity when you can doubt your own existence unless you can provide proof.
No it is not. Skepticism is about objectively assessing the evidence for the validity of a claim.


The theory of germs was only posited not proven but the result was that drinking boiled water rather than street pump water stopped cholera in the UK in the 19th century. At the time sceptics thought the idea ridiculous. Logic and experimentation achieved the required result - no cholera if you only drank beer or boiled water. If they had waited for 100% scientific proof thousands of people would have continued to die.

John Snow contributed to the formation of the germ theory when he traced the source of the 1854 cholera outbreak in the central neighbourhood of Birmingham. The statistical analysis of the affected cases showed that the outbreak was not consistent with the miasma theory which was prevalent at the time. Contrary to the contagion model, he identified drinking water as the vessel for transmission of the disease. He found that cases occurred in the homes which obtained their water from the Broad Street pump, which was at the geographical center of the outbreak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease)


Snow was a sceptic of the then-dominant miasma theory that stated that diseases such as cholera or the Black Death were caused by pollution or a noxious form of "bad air". The germ theory was not widely accepted by this time, so he was unaware of the mechanism by which the disease was transmitted, but evidence led him to believe that it was not due to breathing foul air. He first publicized his theory in an essay On the Mode of Communication of Cholera in 1849. In 1855 a second edition was published, with a much more elaborate investigation of the effect of the water-supply in the Soho, London epidemic of 1854.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow_(physician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow_(physician))

So, a victory for science, thanks for sharing.


Also all cells do emit "frequencies" and you can explode them with high frequency ultrasound.
Frequencies of what exactly? Thermal radiation? Electromagnetic radiation? Sound waves? Wishy washy new age energy? Frequency is not a stand alone term, it need the qualifier of what it is a frequency of.


The US military has experimented with both ultrasound and infrasound as a weapon and apparently the Nazis used infrasound to try to disorientate crowds and to make them angry - it seemed to work (OK not serious...)[\quote]
The obvious conclusion being that infrasound can be used for the alleviation of the pain of a torn meniscal cartilage (OK…not serious).

[quote=keveen;57739]Your brain does produce "alpha waves" and of course can be effected by noise = frequencies and soothed by other types of frequences = certain music.
Lol. Apha waves are electromagnetic, they are NOT sound waves. Never have been and never will be. Double lol, the effects of music on your ‘mood’ are psychological in nature.


I still can't find any real evidence about infrasound therapy though, except that it works on horses!
Because there isn’t any. Not evidence for it working on horses for that matter either. Unless of course you would like to provide us with some.

skb

[Matt]

That is not an accurate description of the placebo effect. Placebos have no curative powers. They can be, however, effective for the control of pain.


Well it's a little bit more complex than that. Placebos are not limited to psychological effects. Real directly measureable physiological effects can be produced from purely psychological stimulli. Rather than derail this thread further, perhaps you'd like to read and maybe resurrect the more pertinant one here (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2871)

With such a narrow concept of the placebo effect as you're suing here you run the risk of either validating implausbile cure which can reproducably demonstrate a physiological effect (cure) or trivailising complaints which can be significantly and measurably improved through placebo effects as merely psychosomatic.

[Trinoc]

Are you saying that following a particular line of reasoning from the evidence might lead to the "wrong" answer, as determined by what we believe already?

[keveen]

Self-experimentation is an excellent way of testing out medical claims, especially when the risk is so low and that of course is a personal decision. Not to try something that is claimed to work by people who have used a treatment because there is not yet enough "science" is for me an irrational way of going about things, of course excluding the obvious give me all your money scam merchants. There were many anecdotal experiences that claimed that magnetic bracelets helped alleviate joint pain and such anecdotal evidence seems to have some evidential basis as reported by the Arthritis Research Society - http://www.arc.org.uk/news/pressreleases/results/magbrace.asp which I just discovered by accident. The science behind the effect is still not properly understood. Am I to wait until it is understood until I try? I think not, as long as the risks are small enough. As I stated, I think one of the main problems about alternative treatments (including herbs and homeopathy) is that a more person centred diagnosis is needed - some things work on some people and not at all on others.

Getting back to the actual therapy, infrasound is as interesting and possibly as valid as ultrasound. As I said, if I had waited for 100% "proof" I would never have discovered the useful and effective ultrasound device I use and perhaps the infrasound one will be effective too. If I wait for the sceptics to prove its efficacy it looks like I'll be waiting for some time to come!:smiley: (I also discoverd another level - Intrasound - Oh no!) I agree that the lack of real scientific study is a cause for scepticism but you might wonder why there are not more studies into the therapeutic use of infrasound. It's easy to measure its effects - heat, chemistry or otherwise - as for ultrasound. Infrasound use seems to be anecdotal and experiential right now. I'm not waiting for medical science when I can easily test it for and on myself (I think I'll try the neighbours cat first:smiley:)

Also, it is not clever splitting hairs about definitions and trying to catch people out. That's an old trick that tries to invalidate an argument by undermining the confidence of the speaker by tripping them up (doesn't work on me). I haven't a clue about most of the science behind the results that I am reading but that does not mean I don't understand the results or the reasoning and even method behind them. The results can usually be expressed in simple practical useful terms. For this topic, if it's not useful I'm not interested. I don't have to understand the science behind the car engine to fix it! It's also a matter of trusting the validity of the people who conducted the research although they can't always be trusted! The Guardian Bad Science page has enough about that.

Yeah, I can post links...O0 Here's my growing medical collection - http://mediawiki.healthwealthandmusic.co.uk/index.php/Category:Health

[Pebble]

Always best to go back to the original data in a trial for example:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/1450?view=long&pmid=15604181

BMJ 2004;329:1450-1454 (18 December), doi:10.1136/bmj.329.7480.1450

The limits of medicine
Randomised controlled trial of magnetic bracelets for relieving pain in osteoarthritis of the hip and knee


Table 3 provides data on participants' beliefs about group allocation and the reasons given for their beliefs. Around a third of participants in the standard and dummy groups were correct in their beliefs about their bracelet, although the reasons differed between groups. In the standard group beliefs were mainly based on noticing the magnetic force—for example, bracelets were often reported to stick to keys in pockets—or on improved symptoms. In the dummy group, few noticed the magnetic force and beliefs were most commonly based on a lack of symptom improvement.

This does not disprove efficacy, but shows without question that blinding was ineffective.

[keveen]

That's a good example but even so, in that study, results seem to be positive. The strength of the magnets seems to be crucial - (47 to 180 mTesla) - no idea what that means either! I'm more used to Gauss measurments - but again, as a patient, who cares - I would now go and ask for the appropriate strength. I don't need to know why. In the article you quote, they still don't exactly know what is going on but simply acknowledge that there is a clinical result.

There is simply too much conflicting evidence about a lot of health topics. Here is another example : http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band123/b123-5.html again positive results but as the last paragraph states there seems to be some poor science going on. You would think that the type of laser and intensity etc would have been recorded!!:undecided: Is it me or is it....

[Pebble]

That's a good example but even so, in that study, results seem to be positive. The strength of the magnets seems to be crucial - (47 to 180 mTesla) - no idea what that means either! I'm more used to Gauss measurments - but again, as a patient, who cares - I would now go and ask for the appropriate strength. I don't need to know why. In the article you quote, they still don't exactly know what is going on but simply acknowledge that there is a clinical result.

There is simply too much conflicting evidence about a lot of health topics. Here is another example : http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band123/b123-5.html again positive results but as the last paragraph states there seems to be some poor science going on. You would think that the type of laser and intensity etc would have been recorded!!:undecided: Is it me or is it....

This is the study which you had referred to, just the detail behind the headline. The point is that without blinding the results are unreliable. When dealing with unblinded studies one looks for a non subjective outcome or a very large effect - neither available in this study. Second without repeated studies showing the same results no effect can be proven.

So the reality is that we have an isolated result, compatible with efficacy of magnetic bracelets. Nothing more, this is not high quality evidence, just enough to justify further study. So save yourself the cost of a magnet (whatever the strength) until proven therapies are exhausted.

[keveen]

I don't actually believe any of it until I've tried it for my self and there is no harm in trying. Actually, before reading all this gumph I did buy a sports knee band at 800 gauss/80 mTesla (believe me when you have cartilage pain you feel like you'd be happier with a wooden leg!) and over these 3 months I have noticed that the pain is less when I wear it. Actually I have no pain now. I first bought a cheaper weaker one that had no effect whatsoever and thought it was all rubbish until I found out the "recommended" strength and thought I'd have another go.

I'll give this post a rest now unless anyone has found any evidence for or against infrasound? There is a lot on its other manifestations - animals, earthquakes, military etc.

[Pebble]

.

I'll give this post a rest now unless anyone has found any evidence for or against infrasound? There is a lot on its other manifestations - animals, earthquakes, military etc.

Missing the whole point, science provides evidence for, or fails to provide evidence for. It very rarely provides evidence against.

[skbuncks]

snip....As I stated, I think one of the main problems about alternative treatments (including herbs and homeopathy) is that a more person centred diagnosis is needed - some things work on some people and not at all on others....snip

Thanks for that, I now have coffee all over my keyboard. Homoeopathy indeed, lol ;D

skb

[Croydon Bob]

homeopathy

Should I assume that you have no idea what Homeopathy is?