Anarchy in the uk

[JonSais]

Anarchist Voices Video Project and Total Liberty mag
Hi, I'm new to this Forum and have an interest in Anarchism and Libertarian philosophy and movements.
I'm intersted in discussing issues related to Anarchism and Libertaianism.
best wishes
Jon Sais
O0

[polomint38]

Anarchist Voices Video Project and Total Liberty mag
Hi, I'm new to this Forum and have an interest in Anarchism and Libertarian philosophy and movements.
I'm intersted in discussing issues related to Anarchism and Libertaianism.
best wishes
Jon Sais
O0

I saw the subject line, where are the Sex Pistol songs?

[Trinoc]

Anarchist Voices Video Project and Total Liberty mag
Hi, I'm new to this Forum and have an interest in Anarchism and Libertarian philosophy and movements.
I'm intersted in discussing issues related to Anarchism and Libertaianism.
http://www.spiked-online.com/

http://www.cato.org/

[Mulder]

On the face of it, freedom from dumb governments sounds like a good idea. However, you are then subject to dumb individuals instead. Life's a bummer!

[ZERO]

Without central organization provided by a government, how do you prevent any society from descending into chaos like Afghanistan or Somalia?

[chaggle]

To quote Joyce Grenfell, - Who would do the drains?

[Mojo]

I saw the subject line, where are the Sex Pistol songs?

I'm trying to learn a couple of them on the melodeon - does that count?

[Tim the Mage]

I'm trying to learn a couple of them on the melodeon - does that count?

Isn't that on the same scale as trying to play Bach's B Minor Mass on the mouth organ?

On anarchy, I've always taken the view that, ceteris paribus, more Government is the wrong answer. But that doesn't mean no Government - it's a matter of consent. What matters is who's the boss - them ('authorities') or us ('the people').

[mahakala]

The UK is already in a state of anarchy; it just doesn't realize it. The external debt is three times the GDP. No wonder there is a credit crunch. The country is in hawk up to its eyeballs.

[Mongrel]

The UK is already in a state of anarchy; it just doesn't realize it.

That's just debt, not anarchy, and whilst it looks bad to us we're still doing better than some countries of the world.


Anarchy (from Greek: αναρχία anarchía, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following:

* "Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."
* "A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."
* "Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."
* Without government or law
* A society free from coercive authority of any kind is the goal of proponents of the political philosophy of anarchism (anarchists).


And I have a cynical view of society, I don't believe that humans are capable of the second definition.

[mahakala]

Economics is a big part of anarchy theory. As in "according to the etymology of the word, anarchy would mean absence of all government, of all political authority."

And for your information, the UK has the worst external debt of any country in the world. Obviously somebody has been absent for a long time.

[polomint38]

I'm trying to learn a couple of them on the melodeon - does that count?

l'anarchie pour le uk

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MaqNWDbr1Yg&feature=related

[darkwinter]

Economics is a big part of anarchy theory. As in "according to the etymology of the word, anarchy would mean absence of all government, of all political authority."

And for your information, the UK has the worst external debt of any country in the world. Obviously somebody has been absent for a long time.

I believe the point being made was that there is a significant divide between debt (however severe) and outright anarchy, the absence of leadership. Just because economics is a "big part of anarchy theory" does not mean that debt = anarchy. Economics is also a big part of communist theory; does that mean that a little less debt than we're currently experiencing would make us a communist society?

I count myself as an anarchist, but only insomuch as I am an idealist - I agree with Mongrel that the anarchist ideal will most likely never be remotely feasible. But it would be nice.

:smiley:

[polomint38]

I am now outing myself as an Communist (International not domestic)
But I realise that the communist ideal will most likely never be remotely feasible

** Did I just paraphrase previous post? **

I try to contain myself but can I have some free exclamation marks please !!!!!!!!!

[Mongrel]

And for your information, the UK has the worst external debt of any country in the world. Obviously somebody has been absent for a long time.

But it's unlikely that the whole "system" is going to come crashing down. You or I will likely still have a roof over our heads this time next year and we'll still be able to pop to Sainsburys for a loaf of bread.

Debt is just one part of the financial structure (that's far too easy to focus on) but I don't see hyperinflation on the horizon and the introduction of the Five Billion pound note. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/20/2308681.htm)..

[SimonC]

As I understand anarchist thinking, the fundamental idea is the 'non-aggression principal'. Governments are seen as aggressive, because they impose their policies on people, irrespective of an individual's wishes. Governments are, therefore, seen as incapable of being ethical.

The economic aspect tends to follow from this, more as a way of structuring a society without government than as a 'starting point'. Ideas on how this might work differ between the various anarchist schools of thought. Arguably, the anarcho-capitalists have the most fully defined economic model, but it's very utopian and tends to avoid the practicalities of day-to-day life, in my opininion.

[Tim the Mage]

As I understand anarchist thinking, the fundamental idea is the 'non-aggression principal'. Governments are seen as aggressive, because they impose their policies on people, irrespective of an individual's wishes. Governments are, therefore, seen as incapable of being ethical.

The economic aspect tends to follow from this, more as a way of structuring a society without government than as a 'starting point'. Ideas on how this might work differ between the various anarchist schools of thought. Arguably, the anarcho-capitalists have the most fully defined economic model, but it's very utopian and tends to avoid the practicalities of day-to-day life, in my opininion.

Not instigating aggression is a central tenet of what we might call 'liberatarianism', which is pretty close to anarchism but not quite the same. And a connoisseurs of such anarchist brands as nihilism would know - violence is a common feature of political anarchy.

I do enjoy however those who lay claim to a belief - 'I'm a communist' or 'I'm an anarchist' - and then tell us that it's not realisable or practicable. It's a bit like being a christian and not believing in God.

On 'anarcho-capitalism' (which is really a rude designation for 'libertarianism') one of the reasons for its stength lies in a solid philosophical base - Ayn Rand and Karl Popper, for example - some very strong economic support - Mises, Hayek, Friedman - and of course the man who wrote the quote below!

The 'debt=anarchy' analogy is really a populist use of the term to mean loss of order, breakdown, chaos...much as the Sex Pistols implied in their little ditty.

[lost thought]

Yes anarchists don't want aggresive goverment control like,
Police stopping a mugging, rapes and murder.
Or how about paying for your bins to be emptied, streets cleaned and road salted/gritted.
No, well how about child abuse would your anarchist say the government should leave the abuser alone.
Or do they just want thier cake and to eat it that is until someone larger and stronger takes it away then will a cry for POLICE be heard then.
Will the anarchist help with the infirm the old the needy.
The anarchist is a selfish git. >:-)

You think I'm being awkward, anarchists by thier nature will take the law into thier own hands, then we can go back to wearing swords or guns just like the wild west. No law but the gun...:sad:

Lost Thought.....O0

[Tim the Mage]

Yes anarchists don't want aggresive goverment control like,
Police stopping a mugging, rapes and murder.
Or how about paying for your bins to be emptied, streets cleaned and road salted/gritted.
No, well how about child abuse would your anarchist say the government should leave the abuser alone.
Or do they just want thier cake and to eat it that is until someone larger and stronger takes it away then will a cry for POLICE be heard then.
Will the anarchist help with the infirm the old the needy.
The anarchist is a selfish git. >:-)

You think I'm being awkward, anarchists by thier nature will take the law into thier own hands, then we can go back to wearing swords or guns just like the wild west. No law but the gun...:sad:

Lost Thought.....O0

Did - way back when - ordered society come about because some wise heads gathered together and said; "we must have a government to stop this anarchy"? Or did human organisation evolve because co-operation (under most circumstances) is in out greatest self-interest?

If the former is true, Lost Thought, you might be right about anarchy. If the latter, you are wrong. The libertarian concern is the translation from 'co-operation' to 'coertion' that occured during the evolution of human society - and the observation we make is that society progresses best when 'coertion' is at a minimum. And that means minimum government, low taxes and a high degree of personal freedom to act.

[lost thought]

Did - way back when - ordered society come about because some wise heads gathered together and said; "we must have a government to stop this anarchy"? Or did human organisation evolve because co-operation (under most circumstances) is in out greatest self-interest?

If the former is true, Lost Thought, you might be right about anarchy. If the latter, you are wrong. The libertarian concern is the translation from 'co-operation' to 'coertion' that occured during the evolution of human society - and the observation we make is that society progresses best when 'coertion' is at a minimum. And that means minimum government, low taxes and a high degree of personal freedom to act.

Yes 'co-operation' this would be nice but, the reality is that people will take advantage as soon as your backs turned.;D
In some parts of brittain to relax is to comit suicide.:'(

Lost Thought >:D

[SimonC]

Not instigating aggression is a central tenet of what we might call 'liberatarianism', which is pretty close to anarchism but not quite the same. And a connoisseurs of such anarchist brands as nihilism would know - violence is a common feature of political anarchy.



Point taken, although the terms 'libertarian' and 'anarcho-capitalist' very often seem to be synonymous in general usage ( although I do accept that the usage might not be strictly correct ). Certainly this anarchist (http://www.freedomainradio.com/) doesn't hesitate to use the terms interchangeably. The podcasts ( particularly the earlier ones ) might make interesting listening for anyone who is interested in the philosophy of market anarchy. Any anyone who ( unlike me ) likes Ayn Rand.

Are nihlists definitively anarchic in their philosophy? I'm geniunely not sure about that one. A nihilist would refute the moral authority of government, but would s/he necessarily advocate anarchism as a 'better' alternative? Surely a nihilist would see no more moral worth in anarchism than in government. As I say, though, I'm not too sure either way.

[SimonC]

Will the anarchist help with the infirm the old the needy.


The market anarchist ( Ayn Rand, for example ) won't. Essentially it's Thatcherism/Reaganomics taken to the extreme.

There is an interview, somewhere on YouTube, where Rand complains about American economic resources being 'wasted on non-productive people, such as the disabled and the mentally-deficient'. Delightful stuff. :-X

[SimonC]

And that means minimum government, low taxes and a high degree of personal freedom to act.

When you refer to 'libertarianism', I think you're talking about what I would call 'minarchism'. Probably nothing more that semantics though.

[Tim the Mage]

The nihilism-anarchy point refers to how to achieve rather than what anarchism is (or is not). Nihilism is about 'nothing' - the principle was that all the structures of restraining society must be destroyed so as to enable the new man.

[SimonC]

The nihilism-anarchy point refers to how to achieve rather than what anarchism is (or is not). Nihilism is about 'nothing' - the principle was that all the structures of restraining society must be destroyed so as to enable the new man.

Cheers for the clarification Tim O0

Am I right in assuming you're referring to Nietzche's ideas in your post?

[Tim the Mage]

Nietzche was associated with nihilism and a deeply sceptical materialism (hence the new man) but I was really thinking more of:



In his early writing, anarchist leader Mikhael Bakunin (1814-1876) composed the notorious entreaty still identified with nihilism: "Let us put our trust in the eternal spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unsearchable and eternally creative source of all life--the passion for destruction is also a creative passion!" (Reaction in Germany, 1842). The movement advocated a social arrangement based on rationalism and materialism as the sole source of knowledge and individual freedom as the highest goal. By rejecting man's spiritual essence in favor of a solely materialistic one, nihilists denounced God and religious authority as antithetical to freedom. http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/nihilism.htm

[Mongrel]

Or did human organisation evolve because co-operation (under most circumstances) is in out greatest self-interest?

Not just humans, many animals co-operate to provide better food\defense for the group.