Should skeptics convert believers?

[Mulder]

There are many good arguments put forward on this forum against all sort of strange and irrational beliefs. I personally feel they are sometimes couched in a way that might put off existing believers and maybe alienate them. I suppose on a forum for skeptics that doesn't matter too much.

But it might, if skeptics were aiming to 'convert ' believers away from erroneous beliefs. So, that's my question really, is skepticism trying to convert believers? If not, should it be?

[NorthernSoul]

I think it depends on the pseudoscience or paranormal claim being made and the circumstances around the believer.

I recently had a...discussion...with my uncle about a psychic reading he had, he believed in it completely and became quite...annoyed that I was trying to show him how I could perform a very similar trick (from this he derived I must be psychic) anyway, by the end I felt guilty, as though I had taken something away from him, I can reconcile this however, I now know that he will at least be reminded of my words or warning should he ever consider having another reading.

On the other hand, my girlfriend is a Christian, though she can't decide what sort. We discuss the bible occasionally and I am given a forum to give my point of view...needless to say, she very rarely agrees, but I would never push the issue and try to convince her she was wrong.

Perhaps I'm a hypocrite of sorts.

I think the skeptical community should put its efforts in to getting factually accurate information in to the public domain and allow people to come to their own conclusions, it's going to be a long haul, there's no quick fix. Educating kids is really the key I feel, I see no point in telling the 79 year old woman in poor health that there is no god.

[Trinoc]

The role of skeptics is to remain true to the evidence, and to present that evidence and the conclusions that follow from it wherever appropriate. If a believer is amenable to changing their views on the basis of that evidence then that is good, but if they persist in their beliefs regardless of the evidence then we have no business employing any sort of underhand tactics - of the sort they would doubtless use to convert us - to try to change them.

Fundamentalists "lie for Jesus" and homeopaths "lie for woo-woo medicine" because they are so certain they are correct that they believe they are justified in deceiving others into following. Skepticism had no such certainty: we must never "lie for science".

[Sarama]

In the words of Dawkins...
"It's time to stop being polite"

That said I'm not quite prepared to go canvassing door to door quite yet ::)
and am prone to agree with Trinoc.

[Pebble]

Fundamentalists "lie for Jesus" and homeopaths "lie for woo-woo medicine" because they are so certain they are correct that they believe they are justified in deceiving others into following. Skepticism had no such certainty: we must never "lie for science".


The real question is whether we should 'spin for science'

Skepticism is boring and hard work. Most people do not want to go back to the provable evidence and work from first principles, most indeed would not know what the principles are.

But there is strength in numbers, and the more people who expouse the 'belief' that science should form the basis of all argument, the more one can keep the woos and the religious on the run - so to speak.

So what propaganda/PR tools could one employ to ensure our message has a change to compete in the market place. That is I believe where Dawkins and others are coming from.

[Tony Williams]

I agree with Trinoc and sympathise with Northern Soul.


But there is strength in numbers, and the more people who expouse the 'belief' that science should form the basis of all argument, the more one can keep the woos and the religious on the run - so to speak.

After taking part in many debates, I prefer to avoid the "science vs religion (etc)" position. That just reinforces the view in the minds of the opposition that science is just another belief system on the same level as theirs. It also provides them with a line of attack concerning those scientists who take a different view from the majority, or make mistakes, or cheat. Instead, I prefer to use phrases like "evidence-based logical thinking" or "evidence-based rational argument". Not as snappy, but it emphasises the point that we're not talking about a belief system or a profession but about a structured way of thinking.

[newatheist]

i think where possible we should provide the slightest of suggestions. but as another person said we must never lie for science. and being an atheist i feel that what my family and many around me believe is totally and utterly wrong, not because i am arrogant and think everything i say is right but simply because of the things i see in their holy books.

there may or may not be a god but for certain there is no god like that of the bible or the quran.

and i kind of feel guilty "to leave them in the dark" so to speak. i feel if my position is correct theirs is not therefore two conflicting views.

i want to tell them as civily as possible to rethink their position on such things i just don't know how.:'(:'(

[Pebble]

After taking part in many debates, I prefer to avoid the "science vs religion (etc)" position. That just reinforces the view in the minds of the opposition that science is just another belief system on the same level as theirs. It also provides them with a line of attack concerning those scientists who take a different view from the majority, or make mistakes, or cheat. Instead, I prefer to use phrases like "evidence-based logical thinking" or "evidence-based rational argument". Not as snappy, but it emphasizes the point that we're not talking about a belief system or a profession but about a structured way of thinking.

I think this misses the central tenant of my argument. One can be a purist and reserve the skeptical position for the intelligentsia, or make the position accessible. If the latter path is chosen, then it is necessary to accept that there will be many who support your view that cannot themselves defend their position in a sophisticated fashion.

It is not required that the central approach be diluted or reduced to the level of belief, merely that a two pronged attack is used - concept generation (evidence based) and propaganda (concept selling).

[Floppit]

I can't say that I've ever felt any need to convert people on a personal level, I have a 'whatever makes them happy' approach.

I am concerned with what might be 'sold' from a position of power though. Teachers, doctors, police, social workers etc all hold positions of power and trust with many believing what 'they' say is true because of the authority their position gives them.

So, long before I worry about converting anyone on a personal level I think removing institutionalised false belief needs work, then re-evaluate.

The power families have over children is another issue. My hunch would be that there's enough institutionalised codswallop to keep us busy anyway so putting home grown codswallop on the back burner just makes sense. We are social beasts and happiness does count, where beliefs hold families together there can be adverse consequences from forcing an issue rather than letting it happen wherever it will.

[NorthernSoul]

Is there the potential for their belief to hurt them, or anybody around them?

I think before I start to talk about pseudoscience and skepticism this is the question I will ask myself.

If I saw somebody in a Chinese Medicine shop (with the Chinese guy claiming to be a Doctor in a white coat) I think I'd somehow feel obliged to intervene and make sure people realise what they're paying for is unproven and unregulated. Just because if I ask the said question the answer I would come to is a resounding yes.

So I think if the belief meets the criteria of potential harm, we should try to convert, though I don't like that word, them, after all, they're always trying to convert us.

[Pebble]

I can't say that I've ever felt any need to convert people on a personal level, I have a 'whatever makes them happy' approach.

I am concerned with what might be 'sold' from a position of power though. Teachers, doctors, police, social workers etc all hold positions of power and trust with many believing what 'they' say is true because of the authority their position gives them.

So, long before I worry about converting anyone on a personal level I think removing institutionalised false belief needs work, then re-evaluate.

The power families have over children is another issue. My hunch would be that there's enough institutionalised codswallop to keep us busy anyway so putting home grown codswallop on the back burner just makes sense. We are social beasts and happiness does count, where beliefs hold families together there can be adverse consequences from forcing an issue rather than letting it happen wherever it will.

Agreed, direct evangelising at the level of the individual would send all the wrong signals, and probably be corrupting.

Oddly for all its faults the Blair Government has done much to expand 'evidence based' approaches to delivery of services and information - perhaps what we need is more skeptical politicians!

[Sarama]

I agree with Trinoc and sympathise with Northern Soul.



After taking part in many debates, I prefer to avoid the "science vs religion (etc)" position. That just reinforces the view in the minds of the opposition that science is just another belief system on the same level as theirs.

Agreed. I think it unwise to be 'religious' about anything, including science, at least in my own argument and debate, I will leave that up to Dawkins. He does a fine job of offering the fundamentally religious an equally fundamental opposition which I personally think is necessary.

[Tony Williams]

I can't say that I've ever felt any need to convert people on a personal level, I have a 'whatever makes them happy' approach.

I agree with that. I have worked closely with religious people and got on well with them - they haven't tried to convert me so I haven't challenged their beliefs.

The closest I get to unprovoked conversion attempts would be in my blog posts when I review and praise books like 'Bad Science' or 'How We Know What Isn't So'.

Of course, if religious people (or woo enthusiasts) try to convince me that they're right - either in person or by posting on a public forum which I visit - then they are fair game and I buckle on my armour, sharpen my sword, couch my lance and chaaarge! >:D

[newatheist]

I agree with that. I have worked closely with religious people and got on well with them - they haven't tried to convert me so I haven't challenged their beliefs.

The closest I get to unprovoked conversion attempts would be in my blog posts when I review and praise books like 'Bad Science' or 'How We Know What Isn't So'.

Of course, if religious people (or woo enthusiasts) try to convince me that they're right - either in person or by posting on a public forum which I visit - then they are fair game and I buckle on my armour, sharpen my sword, couch my lance and chaaarge! >:D

yea me too, but it always nags me that people hold such dangers views, especially thanks to sam harris and fitna.

[Pebble]

yea me too, but it always nags me that people hold such dangers views, especially thanks to sam harris and fitna.

Which dangerous views? Attempting to convert the religious? Goaded into this by Sam Harris? If so how?

[Hayley]

I think it is better to give people food for thought rather than force feeding them.

[Pebble]

I think it is better to give people food for thought rather than force feeding them.

The issue is the nature of the food. How far does one go to make it palatable and interesting for them?

[lazerustheduck]

I think it is better to give people food for thought rather than force feeding them.
But when they are mentally anorexic giving them mental food does little good.

[Pebble]

But when they are mentally anorexic giving them mental food does little good.


Could one convert them into bulimics with force feeding?

[lazerustheduck]

Could one convert them into bulimics with force feeding?There are plenty of bulemics out there, they spend all day mentally eating and then throw it all up determined they can live on woo.
There are plenty of documented cases for one particularly sad case look up Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle.

[newatheist]

Which dangerous views? Attempting to convert the religious? Goaded into this by Sam Harris? If so how?

if you have seen fitna then you can understand what im talking about. and maybe because im a confrontational sort of person and i find my views and the views one must hold to call himself a muslim are conflicting.

and so far i haven't attempted it.

[newatheist]

Which dangerous views? Attempting to convert the religious? Goaded into this by Sam Harris? If so how?
if you have seen fitna then you wouldn't really be asking such a question and as an ex-muslim i can tell you that there is nothing moral about that nasty religion, it is as dangerous as any other set of views on earth.

and Sam Harris inspires me to oppsose their views, not tell them leave this set of values and ideals and adopt these, but merely to point out that the one you corrently hold is wrong, there is no basis for it is simply your imagination.

and can you stop using "convert" this world has too much baggage.


oops double reply, caan't remove the last one.

[Pebble]

if you have seen fitna then you wouldn't really be asking such a question and as an ex-muslim i can tell you that there is nothing moral about that nasty religion, it is as dangerous as any other set of views on earth.

and Sam Harris inspires me to oppsose their views, not tell them leave this set of values and ideals and adopt these, but merely to point out that the one you corrently hold is wrong, there is no basis for it is simply your imagination.

and can you stop using "convert" this world has too much baggage.


oops double reply, caan't remove the last one.

With what would you replace convert?

Most muslims I know are just as moral as I am (or hold myself to be), the Koran seems to be read differently by ordinary people and fundamentalists. Like any religion it can be used to radicalize people, the sense of community that is one of religions benefits then becomes a weapon of mass mobilization.
Sam Harris is very right wing and anti-muslim, what I cannot understand is in what way islam is any worse than christianity.

[lost thought]

Hello Pebble

Most muslims I know are just as moral as I am (or hold myself to be), the Koran seems to be read differently by ordinary people and fundamentalists. Like any religion it can be used to radicalize people, the sense of community that is one of religions benefits then becomes a weapon of mass mobilization.
Sam Harris is very right wing and anti-muslim, what I cannot understand is in what way islam is any worse than christianity.[/quote]

I used to be christian so only have understanding of christian side but from observation it would appear that Islam is worse for woman than the christian faith...

Lost Thought.

[Pebble]

I used to be christian so only have understanding of christian side but from observation it would appear that Islam is worse for woman than the christian faith...

Lost Thought.


Some christian sects are still pretty misogynist e.g. Opus Dei, in the past christian communities treated women very much as islamist communities do today, and the christian religion is 700 years older - thus more modified by age. The enlightenment and subsequent womens' movements have forced change on christianity (only through co-location) - so I don't buy that there is a fundamental difference between the beliefs themselves.

[Tony Williams]

The enlightenment and subsequent womens' movements have forced change on christianity (only through co-location) - so I don't buy that there is a fundamental difference between the beliefs themselves.
There does appear to be one fundamental difference: the Koran is supposed to have been directly dictated by Mohammed and therefore the teaching within it must not be questioned and is not subject to revision. This is, as I understand it, the view of all Muslims, whereas in Christianity only the fundamentalists regard the Bible with similar reverence. While some parts of the text of the Koran are certainly open to different interpretations, as held by the different branches of Islam, this restriction does seem to make it harder for Islam to make the same kind of changes which Christianity has experienced.

[Pebble]

There does appear to be one fundamental difference: the Koran is supposed to have been directly dictated by Mohammed and therefore the teaching within it must not be questioned and is not subject to revision. This is, as I understand it, the view of all Muslims, whereas in Christianity only the fundamentalists regard the Bible with similar reverence. While some parts of the text of the Koran are certainly open to different interpretations, as held by the different branches of Islam, this restriction does seem to make it harder for Islam to make the same kind of changes which Christianity has experienced.

Prior to the reformation only the catholic churches interpretation of the bible was on offer, the orthordox sects had similar approaches. Not that dissimilar to islam. Society changed around the christianity - eventually the same will happen with islam - not suggesting that islam will not contribute to great harm during or before this process, but recognising that christian fundamentalists are similarly dangerous just less influential at present.

[newatheist]

Which dangerous views? Attempting to convert the religious? Goaded into this by Sam Harris? If so how?

Have you seen fitna? if you do i think you may understand my position. as my forum name suggests i have left religion(fully) very recently, i was a muslim person and i would have done those things in the name of islam if i was slighly dumber, i hated bush because he was killing 'my muslim brothers' and not because he is an idiot who was murdering innocent people but because these people happened to be muslim.

and just to let you know i have never attempted to convert anyone but should the topic arise i will not hold back.

for example there is a person in my school who constantly tells me to go and pray in the school 'faith room', i kept refusing everyday but he is still doing it after like 3 years. i want to shout in this pricks face and tell him to F*** off.

and still i have not done it, don't know why though.

[Pebble]

Have you seen fitna? if you do i think you may understand my position. as my forum name suggests i have left religion(fully) very recently, i was a muslim person and i would have done those things in the name of islam if i was slighly dumber, i hated bush because he was killing 'my muslim brothers' and not because he is an idiot who was murdering innocent people but because these people happened to be muslim.

and just to let you know i have never attempted to convert anyone but should the topic arise i will not hold back.

for example there is a person in my school who constantly tells me to go and pray in the school 'faith room', i kept refusing everyday but he is still doing it after like 3 years. i want to shout in this pricks face and tell him to F*** off.

and still i have not done it, don't know why though.

Have not seen, will register when time permits.

Have no time for fundamentalists whatever their creed. Though I can readily comprehend your current dominant concern is the religion that has previously affected you and presumably still influences your family, the bible can also be used to great effect to justify all sorts of abuses of women, the murder of infidels and the harassment of those who leave or fail to join the fold. The same is true of cults such as scientology and the other abrahamic religion - judaism.

How best to deal with radicals on a day to day basis is an unresolved problem. Fortunately after school there is much greater tolerance of telling those you disagree with on religion to p**s off. In school especially during the zenith of adolescent certainty, being very forthright can lead to extreme reactions.

Having previously been a member of the club, so to speak, you know your enemy well, what would have put you or your fraternity off pursing an individual? I suspect direct abuse or professed membership of another religion would not work that well, perhaps instilling confusion by opening discussion on those areas that caused you to doubt, and for which you by now have relatively solid arguments.

[Trinoc]

for example there is a person in my school who constantly tells me to go and pray in the school 'faith room', i kept refusing everyday but he is still doing it after like 3 years. i want to shout in this pricks face and tell him to F*** off.
Presumably the "faith room" is set up to accommodate people of all beliefs ... so have you considered installing a few Satanic symbols in there?

[farmersboy]

Presumably the "faith room" is set up to accommodate people of all beliefs ... so have you considered installing a few Satanic symbols in there?

How about a big poster of Darwin or Dawkins?

[Floppit]

There is a rumour that well meaning councils have tended to place refugees in communities where there are higher numbers of people of the same (presumed) faith or country of origin. This can backfire somewhat as many refugees may be trying to escape such communities!

NewE - I'm not sure that conversion is the best way forward. First of all you might just want to quietly educate a few of the numpties who presume you want to pray. While helping to organise large events for young people I've frequently been suspected of intolerance due to suggesting most of the refugee teenagers don't pray 5 times a day (because they told me they didn't!) even if they did come from Iraq. I can really appreciate how frustrating it must be but you can change more by realising sometimes the problem comes from too much effort by people who have never mixed with other races and genuinely believe every single Muslim prays 5 times a day and that everyone from a muslim country is muslim (or in some cases anyone asian!).

If I'm talking to a christian who expresses views I want to challenge, perhaps about a teenager post abotion, or another race, religion etc then I don't find it effective to bring aitheism into the equation. I prefer to simply challenge with reasoning, appeal to compassion, and make it clear I think what they are saying is wrong.

[Trinoc]

If I'm talking to a christian who expresses views I want to challenge, perhaps about a teenager post abotion, or another race, religion etc then I don't find it effective to bring aitheism into the equation. I prefer to simply challenge with reasoning, appeal to compassion, and make it clear I think what they are saying is wrong.
I think I agree. Atheism is not something you put into someone's mind, it is what's left after you have shown them how to reason their own way out of some of the nonsense that was originally in there.

[Pebble]

If I'm talking to a christian who expresses views I want to challenge, perhaps about a teenager post abotion, or another race, religion etc then I don't find it effective to bring aitheism into the equation. I prefer to simply challenge with reasoning, appeal to compassion, and make it clear I think what they are saying is wrong.

Agreed atheism is the endpoint not the opening gambit. Problem with those who are fundamentalists, is that reason is not their thing, they just keep telling you to come pray for the gift of belief.

But I suppose if every time the hassle you you bring up an uncomfortable subject such as women's rights they might eventually get fed up.

[newatheist]

Most muslims I know are just as moral as I am .
just until you challage their religion


With the Koran seems to be read differently by ordinary people and fundamentalists
.

if you read it you will find the writing suitable for everyone to 'cherrypick'. in one page it calls you to kill the apostate leader, in another it's about giving to the poor, you can find everything you want in there.


what I cannot understand is in what way islam is any worse than christianity.

i never said anything even close to that, but christianity has diminished greatly in power whereas islam has grown.

i was reminded of this summer when i went to my home country(Bangladesh) after about 6 years, i left a country that was really into secularism, but now dominated by islam.

can't even friggin eat in public during ramadan(apparantly because you will get SH** beaten out of you) lol

[newatheist]

How about a big poster of Darwin or Dawkins?
lol, so far the only people to even consider that room are the muslims and seikhs. lol::)

[newatheist]

I think I agree. Atheism is not something you put into someone's mind, it is what's left after you have shown them how to reason their own way out of some of the nonsense that was originally in there.
ah ha, thats exactly what i meant when i said it nags me, i don't want to present atheism as the alternative but simply to show how unreasonable they are being.

[Gilbs]

Should Sceptics convert believers? The answer to this questions is "it depends" you have to choose your battles. An example; my Wife is a practising chrisitian and unfortunately believes in all sorts of woo particularly homeopathy and anti-vaccination. I must have the full set:'(

We have two children; who could potentially be harmed through, although with the best intentions, a misinformed belief system. This is were I chose my battle.

As her beliefs were not evidence based; no matter what evidence I presented it further entrenched her position: big pharma, autism etc etc. It took me a year to talk her round. There is obviously a psychology of belief that is very hard to break down but can be done with patience and small steps.

Perhaps I could have been more aggressive in my argument, maybe I should have taken the children to the nurse anyway? but i did want to stay married.
I am happy to say that both kids are up to date with their vaccinations.

Regarding the other woo, when she makes a claim , i politely challenge it, or avoid talking about it. Live and let live, sometimes it is not worth it.

[farmersboy]

I couldn't have married someone who was religious...fortunately my wife is as ardent an atheist as I am. :smiley:

[Mulder]

I don't set out to convert anyone, just broaden their horizons. Believers typically regard themselves as open-minded when, in reality, they never give serious consideration to anything that challenges their beliefs.

I like to show people how alternative models work don't just explain things as well as their beliefs but better. This approach requires a detailed knowledge of the real causes of strange phenomena. If you can impress someone by making a 'better ghost' than the one they saw, they will sometimes listen. They might at least concede that 'some ghosts' are not spirits. It's a small step but a useful one.

[Gilbs]

Farmers boy - good for you. I presume because you are both ardent atheists, you agree on absolutely everything, otherwise if you have differences of opinion you might have to get a divorceO0

[Pebble]

Farmers boy - good for you. I presume because you are both ardent atheists, you agree on absolutely everything, otherwise if you have differences of opinion you might have to get a divorceO0

I am perfectly happy for my partner to believe whatever, but if disagreement is fundamental, conversations are short. When it comes to action (e.g. vaccination) evidence has to trump beliefs. I am not convinced that marriage is so important that one should harm children just to preserve one.

[Gilbs]

Pebble, this is heading in a different direct to that I expected.
My wife saw reason because I presented her with the evidence and the kids got vaccinated. There was never any question of preserving marriage or anything else for that matter over the safety of the kids. They are first priority. So I think credit must be due there.

[Pebble]

Pebble, this is heading in a different direct to that I expected.
My wife saw reason because I presented her with the evidence and the kids got vaccinated. There was never any question of preserving marriage or anything else for that matter over the safety of the kids. They are first priority. So I think credit must be due there.

No offence intended, just being a little facetious. But any interesting question is raised, as an atheist/rationalist one is likely to believe that religion is damaging for children. So while one might have no problem with exposing them as reason permits to consider what they may wish to believe in for themselves, it is probably not acceptable for them to be indoctrinated from prior to the age of reason. How do you resolve such issues with a believing partner?

[lost thought]

No offence intended, just being a little facetious. But any interesting question is raised, as an atheist/rationalist one is likely to believe that religion is damaging for children. So while one might have no problem with exposing them as reason permits to consider what they may wish to believe in for themselves, it is probably not acceptable for them to be indoctrinated from prior to the age of reason. How do you resolve such issues with a believing partner?


Set the facts to the children as they grow and each time they came home with silly ideas planted into them I explained and show facts for why this is so and encorage them to ask the minister questions and if he was unwilling to answer then I gave a factual answer. so I now have one daughter whom like me is an unbeliever and at uni, my older daughter is agnostic and the wife is wavering. O0

Lost Thought >:D

[Gilbs]

Pebble.
I am sure I am not unique. One must not label all practicing believers as dyed in the wool faith heads. She just has a faith, its private to her and thats about it really. its C of E so hardly fire and brimstone.

I just encourage them to think for themselves and help them find the facts, evidence etc from books. They know I don't beelive and the wife does. However we both encourage them to think for themselves.

Other than that I am not sure what else to do.

[Gilbs]

for example there is a person in my school who constantly tells me to go and pray in the school 'faith room', i kept refusing everyday but he is still doing it after like 3 years. i want to shout in this pricks face and tell him to F*** off.

and still i have not done it, don't know why though.

I really don't understand this mind set. When I was at school anyone telling me to pray would have been laughed at by the whole school all the way back under his rock. There has to be more to it than religion, Do young adults/ kids really believe this strongly that they tell others to pray year after year? Surely there must be cultural reasons, do you think this kid is asking you because you are both from the same ethnic background and therefore he is identifying with his religion more on racial terms than religious? Does he ask other kids of different ethnicity to pray also or just his perceived brothers? Islam is not a race; but it seems to me some people believe it is? Or is the simple answer a lot of muslim kids are very religious.

[Pebble]

Set the facts to the children as they grow and each time they came home with silly ideas planted into them I explained and show facts for why this is so and encorage them to ask the minister questions and if he was unwilling to answer then I gave a factual answer. so I now have one daughter whom like me is an unbeliever and at uni, my older daughter is agnostic and the wife is wavering. O0

Lost Thought >:D

This is of course fighting a rearguard action. I suppose once you let your children be baptisted, you have already handed them over to the religious (at least in the ministers eyes). Then you spend the next 10 - 15 years trying to undo what you have already tacitly agreed to. If your partner is significantly religious, they tend to feel that it would be unreasonable not to allow baptism (original sin and all that) - hence the seeds of dissent are sown.

It all makes me wonder if we are still at the stage of being almost closet atheists, rather like homosexuals in the 50's, only behind closed doors?

[newatheist]

I really don't understand this mind set. When I was at school anyone telling me to pray would have been laughed at by the whole school all the way back under his rock. There has to be more to it than religion, Do young adults/ kids really believe this strongly that they tell others to pray year after year? Surely there must be cultural reasons, do you think this kid is asking you because you are both from the same ethnic background and therefore he is identifying with his religion more on racial terms than religious? Does he ask other kids of different ethnicity to pray also or just his perceived brothers? Islam is not a race; but it seems to me some people believe it is? Or is the simple answer a lot of muslim kids are very religious.
i had a very very long time ago given the impression that i am a rather ... committed muslim, and i guess i haven't really been quite as vocal about atheism(not one word yet), i have friends who are open atheists and even they don't know, so it might be my fault.

but then again, rejection after rejection and still not getting the hint?

[farmersboy]

Farmers boy - good for you. I presume because you are both ardent atheists, you agree on absolutely everything, otherwise if you have differences of opinion you might have to get a divorceO0

We do actually agree on most things (except the appeal of Strictly and Z-Factor), with the possible exception of politics...

We need to keep an eye on one of their granny's though, who can't accept their atheist outlook and has apparently been trying to convince them that they must belive in something, surely?

[Matt]

i had a very very long time ago given the impression that i am a rather ... committed muslim, and i guess i haven't really been quite as vocal about atheism(not one word yet), i have friends who are open atheists and even they don't know, so it might be my fault.

but then again, rejection after rejection and still not getting the hint?

Would you say that coming out as an apostate Muslim would be harder than coming out as an Atheist if you'd never been actively Muslim. Have you recited the Shahadah as an adult.

Have you read "Why I am not a Muslim (http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=104046969)" by Ibn Warraq?

[newatheist]

Would you say that coming out as an apostate Muslim would be harder than coming out as an Atheist if you'd never been actively Muslim. Have you recited the Shahadah as an adult.

Have you read "Why I am not a Muslim (http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=104046969)" by Ibn Warraq?

definitely, i even feared seriously for life at one point (to the point of pacing around the room shouting profanities at myself).

i am not an adult yet so no.
and i will read it now(Why I am not a Muslim (http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=104046969)).