Just how pedantic should a skeptic become?

[Sgt Badass]

So, I'm filling up with petrol at Asda (Merry Hill Centre if you're near) and I notice they've put up signs saying "why you shouldn't use your mobile".

They cite a letter from the HSE talking about three explosions. Now, I thought at the time "hang on, that's a crock - it's on snopes or sommat", so I check out the HSE website and sure enough, they'd retracted the quotes some time ago stating they were bogus.

Now, the pedant in me is thinking "write to them, they need to be told", but the normal human in me is thinking "get over it, it's Friday and the pub opens in 40 minutes"

What would you do?

[tkingdoll]

Write the letter. I do lots of impromtu letter or email writing over this sort of thing. Basically, myths and misconceptions get spread if no-one challenges them. If not you, then who?

Education is about people who know the facts informing the people who don't.

It's perfectly OK, for insurance and 'just in case' reasons, to ask people not to use their mobiles, but it's not OK to mislead people about why.

Write the letter! Or if you'd rather not, I'll do it ;D

I have a bunch of stuff about this topic I got from a scientist who did a huge study into it, we swapped emails when the same subject came up on JREF. I'll dig it out if anyone's interested.

[Hazen]

I have a bunch of stuff about this topic I got from a scientist who did a huge study into it, we swapped emails when the same subject came up on JREF. I'll dig it out if anyone's interested.


Yes please.

Is this about the dangers of EM radiation from mobile phones igniting petrol?

[tkingdoll]

Okies, I just revisted the thread and to my surprise discovered that it was in fact the site of my very first JREF post! How interesting!

So, thanks for the memories :D

The sources I started with were:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4366337.stm
and

http://economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3786384

I then went on to email Dr Adam Burgess regarding his research, he said his reportwas about to be published and as that was almost a year ago, presumably it is now available.

An excerpt from his email:


There's absolutely no direct evidence to suggest a mobile could spark petrol vapour and, unusually, there aren't really any 'claims makers' arguing that it can happen. 'Evidence' is only drawn from the precautionary measures and warnings on mobiles and at petrol stations - and this is evidence of nothing. On the Internet reports of incidents, Richard Coates, the group fire safety officer at BP has investigated most of the incidents directly (most in the USA). As you may know already, its body static that has caused the increase in fires since the late 90s. As for looking at the theoretical possibility, the main studies are below. The Oklahoma one is probably the most authoritative. The Institute of Petroleum is the summary of a conference they held in the industry which brough together all the experts and concluded categorically that, whilst theoretically possible, the circumstances necessary for it to happen are extremely unlikely to actually occur - such that even a body like the Institute of Electrical Engineers can be so bold as to say: “Cell phones pose no gas station hazard” concluding, “…there is nothing to worry about”(IEEE Spectrum, 2004).

The interesting part of this story is actually how this ever got taken seriously, and here we're on to the role of rumor, and precautionary actions on the part of the mobile companies and the petrol operators.
Hope this helps, Adam

EFAA. 1999. Cell Phone Usage at Gasoline Stations. Exponent Failure Analysis Associates: Menlo Park, California.


IEEE Spectrum. 2004. Cell phones Pose No Gas Station Hazard.

Available at http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/contents/index.html.



University of Oklahoma. 2001. Investigation of the Potential for Wireless Phones to Cause Explosions at Gas Stations. Oklahoma: Wireless EMC Center.



Institute of Petroleum. 2003. Technical Seminar Proceedings: Can Mobile Phone Communications Ignite Petroleum Vapour? (sic) London: Institute of Petroleum.




The JREF thread starts here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1108649#post1108649

[Sgt Badass]

By jingo I'll do it! Thanks for the info, I'll compile a missive and get hassling.

[Big_Les]

Definitely! I've always meant to and never got around to it, to my shame. But, I did once stand up for a guy who was (probably rather thoughtlessly) using his phone in the petrol station shop, and got shouted at by the staff. I said something to the effect of "if it helps at all, there's absolutely no evidence at all for fires being started by mobile phones".

The assistant mumbled something about "rules" and carried on as before.

[Sgt Badass]

I've seen people get hassled for using their phones in the past (usually via intercom), but they've usually been twattish types so have never defended them (I know, book and cover but I'm a shallow type).

One particularly funny incident was at a petrol station on the A34. Two guys parked up their Mercs right in front of an exit, got out, started chatting on their phones and one lit up a fag.

That's just taking the piss.

[Big_Les]

Just came across this batch of reports on this issue in another forum; I hadn't seen most of it before:

http://www.exponent.com/about/docs/cellphonereport.pdf
http://www.motorola.com/mot/doc/0/203_MotDoc.pdf
http://www.ericsson.com/ericsson/cor...olStations.pdf
http://www.ctia.org/content/index.cfm/AID/1040
http://www.ou.edu/engineering/emc/projects/AV1_X.html