Sex and belief

[Higgledy]

This is my first post on the UK-Skeptics forum.

I've have an observation/theory that relates to sex and religion and I thought this forum would be the best place to air it.

Sometime ago I had a brush with a few born again christians and they tried, unsuccessfully, to convert me. During that time one female christian made a comment that struck me as a tad odd. Basically she said that, to many christian women, Jesus was not only an aspect of god to be worshipped but he was also, in personal terms, a best friend, a father and a lover all rolled into one. It struck me as kind of unfair that women and gay men should be able to regard Jesus as their 'lover' but straight men and gay women really couldn't. I didn't think about it much more than that at the time. Recently however, on 'Last Choir Standing,' one of the female members of a gospel choir said, as a throw away remark, that Jesus was a 'spiritual lover.' I can't help reaching the conclusion that, for many women, there is a strong sexual component in their relationship with Jesus.

Having thought some more on the subject (I need to get out more) I now find it interesting that the Catholic church puts so much emphasis on the virgin Mary. She gave birth to Jesus but she isn't part of 'the holy trinity' so why do they have so many images and statues of her? Do you think there might be a similar sexual motivation on the part of all those male priests?

I could be completely wrong about all this but I thought I'd share it with you guys anyway :)

[Tim the Mage]

The Cult of the Virgin has deeper origins than you think and has always created tensions within a patriarchal church:

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1577

As to whether born-again women 'get off' on Jesus, I suspect that the emotions are rather more complex that that...

http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/religious_ecstasy.html

Religions have always looked for escape and part of this lies in sexuality - either expolitation (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/livy39.html) or suppression (http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1708).

[Pebble]

I suspect it all depends on how one reads and interprets the bible.

http://www.thefamily.org/dossier/books/book5/main.htm

Many passages of the Bible are unabashedly erotic, including the Song of Solomon, and various descriptions of the relationship between God and His "unfaithful" Church. Even the promised world of spiritual bliss to come for His saved children begins with rapturous ecstasies as our present bodies are transformed by God into Heavenly bodies. Then begins the marriage feast of the Lamb (Jesus) for all who believe in Him, His "Bride," who then enjoy ardent pleasures forever more at the right hand of God. (See Revelation 19 ; Psalm 16:11 .)

chapter 16 of the Book of Ezekiel

The chapter begins with a graphic description of God's involvement with Jerusalem, as a man involved with a woman, using explicitly sexual terms. At first she was just a filthy little abandoned baby that He took pity on, washed and beautified. Then, when she grows old enough and it "was the time of love" (verse 8), God makes love to her and showers her with presents. This ungrateful woman, however, runs away from God to become a whore, and a foolish one at that, who God says doesn't even have common sense enough to charge for her sexual services, but rather pays her lovers. To discipline her, God allows her enemies to strip her naked and abuse her. In the end God takes her back a more humble and submitted woman. This is not a piece of bizarre sex-cult literature, but an allegorical part of sacred Scripture revered by millions of Jews and Christians alike as the very Word of God



(Rousseau and Gallagher, 1986: 46, 54).
These same authors also provide us with a very refreshing portrayal of how sex play is a reflection of God and the Holy Trinity. (In the Family, the Holy Spirit is thought of as female, which, in my thinking better reconciles this imagery.)
And so in love play we can get some glimpse of what God does all day. The three divine persons, Father, Son and Spirit, play-play in love. Our moments of play are the high points of our days, are they not? We play when our work is done, when there are no more needs to be met, no services to be performed, no tasks or duties to be done at least for a while. And so we simply relax and enjoy each other, enjoy the good that we see in each other, enjoy the life that we share with each other. And sexual ecstasy is a high point of play-more intense and vivid than any other kind. In our best sexual moments, all cares fall away, we gasp in realization of the person before us, we shriek in ecstasy at the realization that we two, wonderful as we are, belong to each other. That sexual moment, that moment of love play, deserves to be counted as one of our seven sacraments. It is most fitting, truly, right and just that sexual intimacy should be, a symbol-a causal symbol-of our intimacy with the three divine persons. Human love play is one clear and powerful way for human beings to take part in the love play of the Trinity (op. cit., 23).


I think one can reasonably infer a 'sexualised' relationship between god/jesus and oneself if so inclined.

[Higgledy]

Very, very interesting. Thanks.

[Stunty]

Having thought some more on the subject (I need to get out more) I now find it interesting that the Catholic church puts so much emphasis on the virgin Mary.

What's interesting about the Immaculate Conception is that the whole idea stems from a translation error. The word, 'mary', in Hebrew, actually means, 'woman of marital age'

Quite amusing really... 8)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Ever heard the American hymn He Walks with me and He Talks with me ?

It doesn't take a whole heap of psychological insight to interpret that one.

[MischiefMonkey]

Look at the tradition of gospel choirs. Perfectly good, horny, love songs tuned into 'hymns'. 'Heatwave' is a song that springs to mind.

Or even the 'Reverend' Al Green and one of the filthiest songs of all time - 'Take me to the River'

To be fair, if Jesus was real, he'd have been a bit of a turn on. A rebel with a certain amount of power. Bit of a bad boy really.

[Tim the Mage]

if Jesus was real, he'd have been a bit of a turn on. A rebel with a certain amount of power. Bit of a bad boy really.


Although Jesus was not God he was most certainly real and judging by those he knocked about with, the boy was almost certainly a 'wild child'. All those prostitutes, drunks and ne'erdowells - bit like Andy Warhol?

[Croydon Bob]

Many passages of the Bible are unabashedly erotic, including the Song of Solomon,


Most of Solomon, "The Song of Songs", is just a list of chat-up lines. The Mor(m)ons don't even recognise it as belonging in the Bible. It has nothing to do with religion.

Try Chapter 4 KJV:
"thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead."
"Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them. "
"Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks. "
Etc, etc.

Quality gab like that guaranteed you a shag in olden days.

[Tim the Mage]

Most of Solomon, "The Song of Songs", is just a list of chat-up lines. The Mor(m)ons don't even recognise it as belonging in the Bible. It has nothing to do with religion.

Try Chapter 4 KJV:
"thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead."
"Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them. "
"Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks. "
Etc, etc.

Quality gab like that guaranteed you a shag in olden days.

Wasn't it all a political exercise aimed at charming the Queen of Sheba?

[Croydon Bob]

Wasn't it all a political exercise aimed at charming the Queen of Sheba?

How could she resist lines like:

"Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. "

I bet she couldn't get her knickers off quick enough.

Actually I'm not sure that there is any evidence that it has anything to do with Solomon or Sheba or any specific individuals. Some religionists claim it as allegory representing their god's love for Israel, or a future messiah, or whatever. They worship strange gods...

[Tim the Mage]

How could she resist lines like:

"Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. "

I bet she couldn't get her knickers off quick enough.

Actually I'm not sure that there is any evidence that it has anything to do with Solomon or Sheba or any specific individuals. Some religionists claim it as allegory representing their god's love for Israel, or a future messiah, or whatever. They worship strange gods...

Anything that long ago is a bit woolly but the OT is pretty clear about David & Solomon and this part is essentially chronicles rather than religious texts. And the developmental facts (Jerusalem, the temple etc.) are corroborated by good archaelogical evidence.

The SoS is in some bibles and not in others (RC Bibles include it but many Protestant ones do not - can't take the sexual suggestiveness) and dates from the same time as the Psalms (the Hebrew is very similar) which are well attested to the time of David & Solomon. I always took it as a love poem that somehow got stuck in with the religious documents (Ark of the Covenant at all that jazz) meaning it survived the destruction of the temple and the sack of Jerusalem.

[Matt]

Some religionists claim it as allegory representing their god's love for Israel, or a future messiah, or whatever. They worship strange gods...

Well their God certainly fucked them enough. 40 years wandering the desert to find the only bit without any oil.

[Croydon Bob]

Anything that long ago is a bit woolly but the OT is pretty clear about David & Solomon and this part is essentially chronicles rather than religious texts. And the developmental facts (Jerusalem, the temple etc.) are corroborated by good archaelogical evidence.

From (possibly faulty) memory, I thought that much of the text came from an earlier (Egyptian?) work. The names were tacked on later. And I'm sure that the OT version is not the same as the Hebrew Tanakh version, which, is arguably older and/or more accurate, but I can't remember how they differ.

[Tim the Mage]

From (possibly faulty) memory, I thought that much of the text came from an earlier (Egyptian?) work. The names were tacked on later. And I'm sure that the OT version is not the same as the Hebrew Tanakh version, which, is arguably older and/or more accurate, but I can't remember how they differ.

The Canticles are clearly written by someone from what is now Israel as the geographic descriptions are too close for it to be anything else. They are perhaps from an earlier Hebrew text but the writing (and the Hebrew) are very similar to Ecclesiastes and other works traditionally ascribed to Solomon. However, much of what we call the OT (other than the Prophets) dates from this time so it's anyones guess as to the provenance of the work.

The existance of Egyptian references fits with the Sheba legend - but more to the point it really isn't very far from Jerusalem to Egypt and (if we look beneath the spin) Judaism is an apostate variation of aspects of Egyptian religion - which of course explains Exodus.