Derren Brown

[Electric Angel]

On Thursday night I went to see Derren Brown's stage show in London's West End.


I was not entirely sure which forum a topic on Derren Brown should go in, as although some of his illusions and tricks make him appear psychic, he always maintains that he has no psychic abilities.

The show was impressive, but more so entertaining. Whilst a lot of his tricks were impressive, for most of them it was possible to work out ways in which they had been done and there was at least one trick where the "solution" was blatantly obvious. The most impressive trick was when he played "20 Questions" with several members of the audience, and working out some of the most obscure objects in under ten questions.

I thought for a lot of the time that the tricks could have been easily performed using confederates, but Brown has always maintained that he never uses stooges and the person I was seeing the show with "got involved", and had Derren tell things about her that he "could not possibly know".

Well after the show I decided to buy a copy of his DVD (Something Wicked This Way Comes) which was somewhat similar to the show I had seen, except that at the end after the grand finale, Derren revealed how throughout the show he had been subliminally messaging the whole audience, so no matter who was picked (Derren throws frisbees/stuffed animals to get random members of the audience) the finale would work.

So I was wondering what people think of Derren's powers of suggestion, for anybody who has seen him? I find the thought of him being able to convince and entire audience of one thing and be so sure that no matter who was picked, the finale would succeed, because...well that's a pretty strong skill (not power) to have. In the same way, I don't like the idea (and as yet do not believe) that somebody can hypnotise someone and cause them to do certain things.

(I've been deliberately vague as to what Derren actually performed, just in case anybody else would be seeing his show during the tour - although if pandered, I might give in)

[darkwinter]

I saw him myself about 3 years ago - I think it was on the Something Wiked tour, in fact. Thankfully I was well out of range of even the most enthusiastically-thrown monkey.

As for his methods, I think a lot of the time he's playing the odds - at a rough guess, I'd say around 80% of people are susceptible to the kind of suggestions he makes. I seem to recall him at some point (not in the live show but on the television) turning a few people away after taking a good look at them - he knew that his methods would likely not work for them.

The man has a truly phenomenal understanding of the human mind.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I'm not an expert magician by any means, but I have read a few things about how tricks are done. Even wikipedia gives away some secrets.

I am sometimes mystified by how Derren does tricks, but I think the main thing is that his sublimimal messaging thing is just misdirection mainly. And I also don't think he plays the odds most of the time. I suspect he maybe does use hypnotism, but hypnotism does work with suggestible people and can produce results. As you say a lot of his tricks, if you ignore the misdirection, seem quite basic and spot-able (even though he executes them very skillfully). But then again, he always seems to pull out a total barnstormer at the end of the show....

Incidentally, on his show on Friday night, the one with David Tennant, did anyone else guess the girl was going to draw a kitten?

[tkingdoll]

Yep, what Farside said. He doesn't use 'subliminal messaging', and in fact it's not really possible to make someone say or do something by providing subtle clues as he claims.

The explanations are just part of the act. The real methods are very mundane indeed.

But, what's more interesting as an explanation, a hidden camera and earpiece*, or memorising a phone book overnight using years of mnemonics training? If the audience knew the real methods, he wouldn't sell any tickets.


*not necessarily the method Derren uses for the phone book trick.

[Dr B]

Derren is an excellent entertainer who says at the begining of everything that what he does is a combination of techniques including, psychology, mis-direction, suggestion and magic (though he never really says what he is using for any particular technique - but then why should he?).

Actually - you can use certain techniques to influence certain types of decisions. It's largely related to the salient emphasis technique of various factors like temporal and spatial presentations of items etc. You can make people choose a particualr Zener card (for example) via its spatial location and certain cards are choosen more often than others. Use both combinations together and you vastly increase your chances of a hit. It's not suggestion - but it is influence of sorts....... O0

[edd]

It's hard to discuss this without giving too much away. But assuming that the way he does one thing is the way he does everything is a trap you'll find many people coming out of his shows have fallen into.

He does an excellent job of using well-known suggestions and tricks (like the ideomotor effect, just as an example) to make you feel you know more than you really do.

In fact, all that is now the main reason I'm reluctant to reveal secrets. Far more important than preserving the mystery for entertainment purposes is that it's better all round if people don't know how the trick is done. Knowing a lot but not enough is a very good way to end up believing something really is done using some particular method when that method doesn't work, or worse that something you've seen is genuinely impossible to do by trickery.

Better that people aren't too arrogant and are prepared to admit they don't know how something is done without assigning the first vaguely plausible explanation they come across to it.

[seren]

I'm still bitter from finding out Derren's gay. I went through a real Derren phase a couple of years back- nothing creepy but I did have something of a crush. Now I know that even on the slim chance I even met him I wouldn't be able to lure him with my feminine wossname...well, it's taken all the magic out of it for me. ;)

[Matt]

I'm still bitter from finding out Derren's gay. I went through a real Derren phase a couple of years back- nothing creepy but I did have something of a crush. Now I know that even on the slim chance I even met him I wouldn't be able to lure him with my feminine wossname...well, it's taken all the magic out of it for me. ;)

Derren, Gay?!

First Dumbledore, now Derren Brown. What is it with these wizards? Next you'll be telling me that Seigfried and Roy are more than just good friends.

[tkingdoll]

Actually - you can use certain techniques to influence certain types of decisions. It's largely related to the salient emphasis technique of various factors like temporal and spatial presentations of items etc. You can make people choose a particualr Zener card (for example) via its spatial location and certain cards are choosen more often than others. Use both combinations together and you vastly increase your chances of a hit. It's not suggestion - but it is influence of sorts....... O0

Yes, but magic NEVER works this way. Magicians do not take chances, and an 80% (or whatever) chance of a card in a certain position being chosen isn't good enough for a reliable trick. So although it's theoretically possible, it's not what Derren does. If you want someone to pick a particular card, you force it on them. If they have a free choice, then you have a different ending to the trick for each possible choice. But never do you rely on the audience member falling for any sort of suggestion for a stage show.

An example of this is a card I made which has the numbers 1 2 3 4 on the front, and "I guessed you'd choose 3" on the back. Most people do in fact choose 3, but if I took that on stage I'd be an idiot, unless I had a different ending for the person who didn't choose 3.

[vbloke]

I went to see his latest show last night in London.

The first half was his usual mind-reading act, whereas the second half consisted mostly of divining what was inside sealed envelopes that audience members had written during the interval.

Anyone with a passing knowledge of magic could see how these tricks were done, but the showmanship is what elevated them above your normal magic act.

[Croydon Bob]

Next you'll be telling me that Seigfried and Roy are more than just good friends.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Dr B]

Yes, but magic NEVER works this way. Magicians do not take chances, and an 80% (or whatever) chance of a card in a certain position being chosen isn't good enough for a reliable trick. So although it's theoretically possible, it's not what Derren does.

I never said that example was the 'magic' one. The point is he employs a host of techniques together. Sometimes it is basic trickery (indeed most times) - but sometimes it is not (I have also seen derren fail on a number of occasions - which is totally unlike a trick). The point you are making is not against my point as i never argued (nor did derren and this is where many are getting confused) that a given particular example involves specifically magic, suggestion, or misdirection etc. He employs a hodge-podge of methods and is clear on the matter - (or thats my reading of his disclaimer anyway). Picking out one thing he does and saying 'thats not magic' is not an argument against my point - that some of what he does is based on other techniques like probabilities (though I do admit he is using those examples less and less these days O0)



If you want someone to pick a particular card, you force it on them. If they have a free choice, then you have a different ending to the trick for each possible choice. But never do you rely on the audience member falling for any sort of suggestion for a stage show.


The Zener card example I gave above is a different way to do it - one Geller uses and so do others. Certain cards are picked more often and the position in which they occupy is picked more often (an attentional bias). I think Geller always uses the star in the second from right position - but the point is both combinations interact and do produce more selections. I think Randi talks about this exact bias in one of his books. I am not saying there are not other ways to do it - but this works very well. I have also done it myself for years as part of public presentations it works about 75% of the time.

I think where people get confused is they are not paying attention to the contextual information he provides (which is vague - but appropriate for a performer).

[tkingdoll]

Anyone with a passing knowledge of magic could see how these tricks were done, but the showmanship is what elevated them above your normal magic act.

Although to be fair, he does use some methods and technology which are way outside a 'passing' knowledge of magic. But that's partially why people fall for the psychology shtick, it's plausible enough, and easier than having to imagine what gadgets an inventor might possibly have come up with. And this why people have fallen for magic throughout history. Way back when, a thumb-tip was an unimaginable bit of magic technology. Now, you have micro-transmitters and all sorts of crazy sci fi stuff.

[tablemonkey]

As someone said previously I think he does have a great understanding of the human mind but I wouldn't rule out that he doesn't use stooges. After all a lot of magic does actually involve them to make a trick work. A lot of the good results may be due to compliance of the person he is doing the trick for.
I watched one of his shows - Trick or Treat - the other night where he told a young woman NOT to press the button which would electrocute a kitten in a glass cage. Of course she pressed it. That may have been due to her knowing she was meant to do that to make it work. I'm sure a lot of people would have seen his very obvious NLP techniques.

[Mongrel]

I watched one of his shows - Trick or Treat - the other night where he told a young woman NOT to press the button which would electrocute a kitten in a glass cage. Of course she pressed it. That may have been due to her knowing she was meant to do that to make it work. I'm sure a lot of people would have seen his very obvious NLP techniques.

I don't know if I'd classify that as an NLP technique. Tell 10 people not to push a button (whatever the consequences) and see how many do it "Just to see what would happen" ;)

[tablemonkey]

Did you see the programme? I haven't gone into great detail about what the techniques he used were, obviously not just telling her 'not to press the button'. Their were too many tricks he was using that were more for the benefit of the viewers to think he was making her subconsciously want to press the button - reverting her to thinking in a childish state so that she could feel mischievious enough to want to press the button, clicking his pen repeatedly, Telling her over and over do NOT press the button - It was to overdone and depended more on her compliance in my opinion. Who would want to kill a sodding kitten? She knew when she pressed the button she wouldn't kill the kitten, even if Derren explained that killing a kitten had been shown on television twice before so she mustn't think that they wouldn't actually do that.

[peterte]

I figured she just really wanted to learn to surf (or whatever it was.)

I guessed David Tennant's `victim' would draw a cat, a house or a yacht. This premonition seems to have made my wife very suspicious that I know what she's thinking - but that's easy: shoes, what else? ;)

[Electric Angel]

I went to see his latest show last night in London.

The first half was his usual mind-reading act, whereas the second half consisted mostly of divining what was inside sealed envelopes that audience members had written during the interval.

Anyone with a passing knowledge of magic could see how these tricks were done, but the showmanship is what elevated them above your normal magic act.
It was the second act that really got me, I worked out at least three possible ways he could have performed the trick/s of the second half (AKA The Oracle Act). I never did believe he has any special ability, and enjoy the fact everybody else is convinced it is mostly shameless trickery. I spoke to someone recently who apparently knows one of Derren's exes, who said that a lot of the things are set up and very carefully staged or have simple solutions, but (as somebody else pointed out) the showmanship that is put in makes it appear a lot more magnificent.

I know an incredibly simple (yet effective) "mind-reading trick". It is fairly mundane when "I" do it, but if I do it in the style of Derren Brown, people find it "better".



I watched one of his shows - Trick or Treat - the other night where he told a young woman NOT to press the button which would electrocute a kitten in a glass cage. Of course she pressed it. That may have been due to her knowing she was meant to do that to make it work. I'm sure a lot of people would have seen his very obvious NLP techniques.
Why is everything an NLP technique these days...

On a different note, I think Derren and/or his team are very good at choosing feeble-minded/very suggestible people. I saw that same clip and found it so hard to believe that at five seconds to go, the girl was so compelled to push the button.

[LucaAltieri]

So just to clarify...

...his book, which I've just about finished, that describes the different psychological techniques he uses is actually just a load of rubbish to throw me off and I've wasted a couple of weeks reading it?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

So just to clarify...

...his book, which I've just about finished, that describes the different psychological techniques he uses is actually just a load of rubbish to throw me off and I've wasted a couple of weeks reading it?

I started reading it, but never finished. I was a bit concerned, the more I read about him elsewhere, that I don't know when or if I should ever believe a word he says.

[tkingdoll]

So just to clarify...

...his book, which I've just about finished, that describes the different psychological techniques he uses is actually just a load of rubbish to throw me off and I've wasted a couple of weeks reading it?

Depends which bits you mean. Misdirection is certainly real, and so is the fact that people remember things after the fact differently to how they actually occurred, and good magicians exploit this.

But it's always sensible to be skeptical about anything a magician gives away as a method. Nine times out of ten that's not the method. The truth doesn't necessarily make for a good read.

[edd]

So just to clarify...

...his book, which I've just about finished, that describes the different psychological techniques he uses is actually just a load of rubbish to throw me off and I've wasted a couple of weeks reading it?

No. It's a while since I read the book but I don't remember it claiming anything unrealistic. It did leave out certain things, and you may be assuming you were told everything.

Elements of psychology do come in to various places. It's not rubbish but it's not the powerful effect you would get the impression from merely watching the TV shows.

[dalriada]

So just to clarify...

...his book, which I've just about finished, that describes the different psychological techniques he uses is actually just a load of rubbish to throw me off and I've wasted a couple of weeks reading it?

Which book was this? If it was Pure Effect, pause fora moment and consider selling it on Amazon Marketplace. I got a copy from Germany via ebay for about 40 quid which I've just sold on Amazon for £210.

In the further services of illusion and in pursuit of the aesthetic unreal I intend to spend the money on botox and champagne.

Thankyou very much Derren Brown, you are indeed MAGIC...

O0

[OlderDad]

Did anybody see his show Derren Brown: Evening Of Wonders on C4 last night?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Recorded but not watched yet. Is it a good one?

[Dubious Dick]

Just watched the show on the Channel 4 website. Not bad, although I still like the one he did at Shepherds Bush a few years back best.

At one point he makes a marvellous comment about the 'medium' who had Conan Doyle enthralled. He points out he was one of a few 'mediums' imprisoned for fraud, then says "Sadly not anymore."

A telling aside that may be missed by many, but shows what a true friend of skepticism Derren is.

One clever aspect of his delivery is his bossiness that seems quite charming. He has them all running about and where he wants them with so little apparent fuss. He'd make a good wedding photographer. Could save hours!!

[OlderDad]

Recorded but not watched yet. Is it a good one?
Yeah, the one offs allways tend to be. Very entertaining.
All seemed to be done with magic tricks. Don't know what Simon Singh would say.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Yeah, the one offs allways tend to be. Very entertaining.
All seemed to be done with magic tricks. Don't know what Simon Singh would say.

Although I've not watched it yet, I think he has possibly turned more in the magic direction over the last couple of years. Maybe it's just the live setting as opposed to an edited TV show, or maybe it's just him trying to create new exciting tricks, and there is a limit to the 'mentalism' in terms of showmanship.

The last live show that was on, my untrained eye was able to work out quite a few of the tricks. His skill is in using misdirection in an incredibly skillful way O0

[OlderDad]

I'm still bitter from finding out Derren's gay.
I suspected he was gay when I was reading Tricks of the Mind due to him not knowing who Myleene Klass was. Most heterosexual men of his age will know who she is. Also he has never been papped with a leggy-blonde in tow. (Sorry I am a flight of the Conchords fan.) Only other explanation for claiming not to know who MK was would be a snubbing of her. I thought that would be out of character though.

ETA: I said that it all seemed to be done with magic tricks. I should have said that it seemed to be done without jedi mind tricks. Fear of spoilers stops me now.

[MischiefMonkey]

Recorded but not watched yet. Is it a good one?

Pretty good:smiley:

There was some stuff you knew how he was doing it, and some stuff was amazingly 'how the hell....!!!!' (Well, unless you are a magician I guess - I'm not)

And he wasn't flirting disgracefully with David Tennant this time;D

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

ETA: I said that it all seemed to be done with magic tricks. I should have said that it seemed to be done without jedi mind tricks. Fear of spoilers stops me now.

No worries! Most Derren Brown threads I've ever seen take on a mind of their own with some pretty naive views on how he does his stunts (I don't like to use the word 'tricks' too much as it does get close to a being a spoiler with Derren), but that is just really a measure of his success.

Personally I enjoy seeing him doing these theatre shows much more than the TV programmes as he will never escape the claims of editing and stooges in the more 'out there' episodes. Although having said that, I do really enjoy ones like the seance. However his reputation is built on so much more than entertaining a theatre audience and it will be interesting to see in which direction he takes his career over the next few years.

[seren]

Which book was this? If it was Pure Effect, pause fora moment and consider selling it on Amazon Marketplace. I got a copy from Germany via ebay for about 40 quid which I've just sold on Amazon for £210.

Really? Really? I have a copy of that somewhere myself. Better dig that out, I need cash.

Derren can be credited in part for my dropping all things woo; I remain indebted, even if I'm truthfully rather bored with his shtick these days. Sorry.

[dalriada]

Really? Really? I have a copy of that somewhere myself. Better dig that out, I need cash.



Tis true! the current going rate for the 2002 printing of Pure Effect by Derren Brown on Amazon Marketplace is £228 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000WWTRKU/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1233328702&sr=8-1) and a rather more modest £110 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0006RIRF2/ref=sr_1_olp_2?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1233328702&sr=8-2) for the 2000 edition. Sell, Sell!

O0