What do we think of Berkeley?

[Zaira]

Got this off another thread. Made some interesting reading. Can't say I understand all of it. Perhaps you can help.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/berkeley/#2.2.1

What do we think of Berkeley?

Does the object create the idea or does the idea create the object?

Was he thinking what I'm thinking?

That nothing exists but we think it so?

I'm not crazy and I'm not looking for a fight. I'm just trying to understand things I feel driven to read - things that are obviously beyond my comprehension. That's where you come in. You can help me understand.

So, what do we think of Berkeley?

[MRT]

Might be good philosophy but not great science.

[seren]

http://pbskids.org/sesame/caregivers/caregivers/images/cg_mouse_image.jpg


Meh. He's cute but imagine all the walks. And the food bills.

[Matt]

Two things came out of Berkeley, UNIX and LSD

I'll get me coat...

[Allo Allo]

Well, I think Berkley is too much of a philosopher and too ancient for me. If we all dropped dead tomorrow, the rest of the natural world would function without us. To me, this means that reality is real - the object exists without an idea - but I am not a philosopher! Whatever Berkely suggested the material world was, it was philosophy - not science.

In other threads (but I read through the posts very quickly) you put forward your idea that, as I understand it, our way of thinking changes our lives and even the material things around us and the course our lives will run. In this I can agree only insofar as a positive attitude, optimism, enthusiasm etc, can open up opportunities for us that we wouldn't have noticed if we were depressed and downhearted. So, prosaically, if you have an old couch needing repair because the stuffing is falling out, you will never be able to repair it by thought alone. Yet, if you were optimistic and alert for "luck" (I know you don't believe in luck, but I do - we make it ourselves), you might get hold of a new couch because you heard of someone getting rid of one. If you were really lucky, it might match your curtains.....::)

So I believe that the way we think really does have a profound effect on our lives and thinking positively is an useful illusion (see Wiki article) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_illusions).

Quote - People also hold positive illusions because such beliefs enhance their productivity and persistence toward tasks on which they might otherwise give up. When people believe they can achieve a difficult goal, this expectation often creates a sense of energy and excitement, the fuel needed to persist to bring goals to realization. Even though people sometimes fall short of achieving all they set out to do, they may make more progress than would otherwise be the case."

It can help us - and also hinder - especially if our positive illusions are too high!

Not so prosaically, if you lived in a war zone, it would be delusional to think you could change your life by the way you thought.

I have even observed positive illusions in animals. I met a pheasant the other day who had a positive illusion it was going to reach the other side of the road in front of my car. But I'm sorry to say it ran out of luck! ;)

Oops! Must stop waffling. Here ends the whole of my wisdom for this week. Gotto go!

[Zaira]

Allo Allo,

I agree. There is nothing wrong with being a philosopher and Berkeley is ancient. He goes so far and then he puts the results or the outcome down to God and spirit of some kind. I still say it's us doing it.

If you dropped dead tomorrow how do you know the world will still function without you? We each create the world we live in. You die and your world ceases to exist. We each create our own reality. There is no ultimate reality. We co-create the reality we share. We co-create the world as we know it.

The way you think does have a profound effect on your life. Thinking positive is not an illusion, it's a productive thinking process. A process we can incorporate into our unconscious in order to improve the quality of our life. It's called Creative Thinking. Before you poo poo Creative thinking check out all the other types of thinking. You have critical thinking, you have lateral thinking, you have positive thinking, and negative thinking and many more. Why not Creative Thinking?

The good news is that you don't need to wait for anyone to show you proof of this. You can carry out your own experiments and see for yourself.

Just for fun think "Fun! Celebration! Button and bows! Ribbons! Flowers!" Think and imagine these things on and off through out your day for the next couple of days. Keep a note pad and a pen handy to write down anything you think might be significant to this experiment. Suspend disbelief, be observant, and be honest with yourself.


PS. One of the most powerful affirmations I use is -

Body heal thyself.

Try it.


(I'm off to Tenerife for a week - don't want any of you thinking I'm hiding. I'll be back. :smiley:)

[Admin]

PS. One of the most powerful affirmations I use is -

Body heal thyself.

We've seen such claims before. ;)

Usually in newspaper headlines describing how people have died needlessly because they thought they could 'think' themselves free of disease etc.

[MischiefMonkey]

PS. One of the most powerful affirmations I use is -

Body heal thyself.

Try it.




Are you saying if my Uncle had thought harder about getting well we wouldn't have buried him last week?>:-)

That's what I really hate about this positive/creative thinking rubbish. If it doesn't work, it is because you aren't good enough at it. You did try hard enough. Not because you have a bloody great inoperable brain tumour>:-)

I won't try your experiment thank you very much Zaira. I have a children's birthday party and an anniversary party coming up so of course I'm going to be seeing "Fun! Celebration! Button and bows! Ribbons! Flowers!". Oh, and there is a little thing known as Christmas coming up......

[fruitfly]

The way you think does have a profound It's called Creative Thinking. Before you poo poo Creative thinking check out all the other types of thinking. You have critical thinking, you have lateral thinking, you have positive thinking, and negative thinking and many more. Why not Creative Thinking?

You missed one: wishful thinking.

[Admin]

Are you saying if my Uncle had thought harder about getting well we wouldn't have buried him last week?>:-)

A really good point. Not only can this positive thinking nonsense end up in people shunning real treatment when it's required because of belief in 'mind over matter' but when people do try this and they continue to suffer (whether with disease or other of life's problems) it can result in a 'victim blaming' mentality.

A great oversight of this sort of mentality can be found here: Blaming the Victim (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=Blaming_the_victim.php).

The problem that people who believe that we create our own reality and can attract good things to ourselves (and avoid bad things by thinking them away) is that it is based heavily on magical thinking that is boosted by confirmation bias.

The type of thinking Zaira displays is classic superstition: the illusion that we can exert control over unpredictable events and uncertainty.

[bindeweede]

John
Many thanks for the link to Chillzero's fascinating article. I hadn't seen it before. It explains a lot........

[chillzero]

Are you saying if my Uncle had thought harder about getting well we wouldn't have buried him last week?>:-)

*Hugs* I am sorry to hear that. I join you in your anger over this kind of attitude.


That's what I really hate about this positive/creative thinking rubbish. If it doesn't work, it is because you aren't good enough at it. You did try hard enough. Not because you have a bloody great inoperable brain tumour>:-)

I completely agree, and I thank John for linking to my article, which saves me posting a long rant here. It really makes me angry when people just pass this kind of phrase about without thinking through all the implications of what it means in real life.


I won't try your experiment thank you very much Zaira. I have a children's birthday party and an anniversary party coming up so of course I'm going to be seeing "Fun! Celebration! Button and bows! Ribbons! Flowers!". Oh, and there is a little thing known as Christmas coming up......

O0

[Zaira]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/asdat/dancer.gif



Remember this?

We can get the dancer to change direction because of what we think. If you saw her going clockwise then think about something, do sums in your head, plan a shopping list. You will notice that after a few seconds she is going the opposite way. If you saw her going counter clockwise then imagine something, visualize a symbol, a colour or someone’s face, make yourself feel an emotion - you will notice that after a few seconds she is going the opposite way. You may have to try it a few time to get the hang of it. Interesting isn't it. depending on how you think - you can change what you perceive.

[Zaira]

MischiefMonkey,

That affirmation is more about prevention than cure.

Sorry to hear about your uncle.

[Zaira]

chillzero,

What are you so afraid of? If it's such a load of rubbish then why are you getting so upset? Because it isn't rubbish and a part of you knows it.

People get scared and think it means that they are to blame for all the crap in their life. It doesn't work like that. You are not to blame. All it means is that you can consciously change what you are thinking about now in order to ensure a better quality of life in the future. Notice I am not saying a perfect life, I’m saying an improved life.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/asdat/dancer.gif




Remember this?



We can get the dancer to change direction because of what we think. If you saw her going clockwise then think about something, do sums in your head, plan a shopping list. You will notice that after a few seconds she is going the opposite way. If you saw her going counter clockwise then imagine something, visualize a symbol, a colour or someone’s face, make yourself feel an emotion - you will notice that after a few seconds she is going the opposite way. You may have to try it a few time to get the hang of it. Interesting isn't it. depending on how you think - you can change what you perceive.

That's just an optical illusion, related to the way the brain interprets images from the eyes in certain circumstances.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the way we perceive reality.

[fruitfly]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/asdat/dancer.gif

Remember this?

We can get the dancer to change direction because of what we think. If you saw her going clockwise then think about something, do sums in your head, plan a shopping list. You will notice that after a few seconds she is going the opposite way. If you saw her going counter clockwise then imagine something, visualize a symbol, a colour or someone’s face, make yourself feel an emotion - you will notice that after a few seconds she is going the opposite way. You may have to try it a few time to get the hang of it. Interesting isn't it. depending on how you think - you can change what you perceive.

We can't get the dancer to change direction, it only appears that way. Regardless of what we think, the reality doesn’t change.

[Zaira]

"A great oversight of this sort of mentality can be found here: Blaming the Victim."

I have read this. If people are blaming themselves or think others are, it's because they do not understand what is meant by Creative Thinking.

All your thoughts, opinions and beliefs are creating your future. If you’re happy fine. Just keep doing what you have always done and you will go on getting what you have always got. If you are not happy, all I’m saying is change what you are thinking. Let go of outdated beliefs and opinions.

Have to go I’ve got a plane to catch.

Check out the net. You say you are into research, then check out the net. Do some reading and try to understand it a little. Please.

[fruitfly]

We can't get the dancer to change direction, it only appears that way. Regardless of what we think, the reality doesn’t change.

In fact, because of what we think (if we think critically), we know the reality doesn’t change!

[MischiefMonkey]

MischiefMonkey,

That affirmation is more about prevention than cure.

Sorry to hear about your uncle.

"Body heal thyself"

Sounds more about cure than prevention.

But it is just the moving of the goal posts when challenged typical of the believers of this kind of nonsense.

When I first joined this site I had hoped you were genuinely questioning your beliefs. I used to have a belief in this guff and my life is so much better since I came to my senses. I thought I recognised something of myself many years ago in you and I had hoped that you might have reached the same conclusions and peace I did. I can see now that I was wrong.

[chillzero]

Only responding as this is directly addressed to me, and so wrong it should be andwered.



chillzero,

What are you so afraid of?

I am not afraid of anything. Who said I was?


If it's such a load of rubbish then why are you getting so upset?

Nor am I upset. I am angry that this rubbish is still being touted, and not even apologised for when said to a greiving person in the manner you spoke to Mischief Monkey. Disgusting.


Because it isn't rubbish and a part of you knows it.

It absolutely IS rubbish, and your completely ignorant attitude to our previous conversations completely sickens me. My article has been linked here, so I won't repeat details, nor do I intend to indulge you further by exposing my personal issues on this matter.


People get scared and think it means that they are to blame for all the crap in their life. It doesn't work like that. You are not to blame. All it means is that you can consciously change what you are thinking about now in order to ensure a better quality of life in the future. Notice I am not saying a perfect life, I’m saying an improved life.

Make your mind up. Either people do create their realities, or they don't. You announce quite happily that people create their own realities and have control over their lives. Then when confronted with what this means in a given situation, you backtrack... "oh no, your uncle didn't die because of a negative attitude. No, instead, he just didn't have a positive enough attitude to prevent what happened." Callous. Absolutely callous and disgusting.

So, people create their realities and are responsible for developing what happens in their life... but at the same time, are not to blame for what happens in their life. Right? That's what you are saying. Idiot.

[Admin]

you can change what you perceive.

Nail on the head time!!

We've been explaining this to you all along.

By engaging in the sort of magical thinking that you do you're not creating or changing reality in any way. You're simply changing your perception of reality and if that perception of reality does not match what's real then all you've succeeded in doing is to create a false perception of reality: a delusion.

Thinking about having a nice rose garden will not 'create' a nice rose garden. It will not become reality.

Acting upon the desire to have a nice rose garden, digging the garden, buying and planting the bulbs etc., will result in a nice rose garden.

Until you can learn to differentiate between reality and perception, thought and action, then you're going to continue to come out with the stupidity that you do and you'll always wonder why people can't see things your way.

[chillzero]

When I first joined this site I had hoped you were genuinely questioning your beliefs. I used to have a belief in this guff and my life is so much better since I came to my senses. I thought I recognised something of myself many years ago in you and I had hoped that you might have reached the same conclusions and peace I did. I can see now that I was wrong.

Been there. Done that. Maybe I should design the T-shirt.
;)

[Mongrel]

I'd suggest you read this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=55887) and the associated paper Zaira and hopefully feel ashamed

[chillzero]

I'd suggest you read this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=55887) and the associated paper Zaira and hopefully feel ashamed

Can you check your link? I can't get to a thread with this.

[bindeweede]

Chillzero

The link worked or me. Are you using Internet Explorer? I find it "sticks" sometimes, but shutting down and returning sometimes helps. Also clearing out cookies, temp files etc.

There is a free cleaner tool from www.ccleaner.com (http://www.ccleaner.com)
that optimizes your system - gets rid of tons of unwanted stuff. Might help.

[chillzero]

Thanks binde. I got it in IE. Firefox was denying me permission, which is weird, 'cos not only am I logged in, I'm a mod there, so can access everything.

Anyway - that is an ideal thread to illustrate the problems with this woolly thinking. Ducky (aka Fowlsound) will always be my titanium hero. Thanks for posting it up Mongrel.

A good line from the OP:

Quite frankly to live your life in debt to science and then throw insults at science out of misunderstanding it is such an insult I don’t know where to begin.

And for anyone who doesn't know Ducky, thankfully he is still around today, and doing well currently.

[Julia]

I've heard it all now. Zaira, you must indeed be making your own reality if you believe that this simple optical illusion is evidence for your favourite brand of woo. In the unlikely event of you having any genuine curiosity about the real world and how it works, I suggest that you spend less time in the Mind/Body/Spirit section of your local bookshopand investigate the Popular Science section instead. Who knows, you might actually learn something instead of having your fantasies fed.

Did you by any chance watch "The Mummy Diaries" on Channel Four last week? Do you believe that all a terminally ill woman has to do in order not to leave her children motherless is to think happy, healing thoughts? Do you think that my mother, whose entire adult life was blighted by manic depression and who killed herself at the age of 52, would be alive today if she had tried harder to make herself well?

Zaira, people who share your beliefs are responsible for:

pushing clinically depressed patients over the edge by making them feel responsible for their illness;

causing people with serious illnesses to stop taking their medication;

encouraging vulnerable/poorly educated people to adopt a world-view that should have died with the nineteenth century.

In short, you are unfit to be criticizing or trying to "help" people whose problems you don't understand. >:-)

[Dr B]

If reality is relative and subjective - jump out of a 10th floor window and tell yourself gravity does not exist for you. Let me know how you get on. ;);D

I love falsifiable hypotheses 8)

[Julia]

If reality is relative and subjective - jump out of a 10th floor window and tell yourself gravity does not exist for you. Let me know how you get on. ;);D

I love falsifiable hypotheses 8)

I don't think the men with shovels and plastic bags would share your fondness for this particular falsifiable hypothesis... :sad: (I couldn't find a vomiting smiley)