"Skeptics to commit suicide."

[bindeweede]

It's a bit old, but still interesting, regarding homeopathy.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/belgium.html

[SteveH]

IIRC Randi does something similar at his lectures/talks - he starts by downing a full bottle of homeopathic sleeping tablets.

[Mojo]

There are various get-outs that homoeopaths use to explain why the skeptics always survive. The usual one is the claim that it's the potency (i.e. the number of times it has been diluted and succussed) of the remedy that determines the strength of the dose, not the amount of it taken, so any amount of a liquid remedy, or any number of homoeopathic pills, taken at about the same time will only count as a single dose.

[tolman]

Wouldn't that also mean that I could buy a single pill, break it into pieces, and then just take a tiny piece?

[Mojo]

I don't see why not.

You could also take a single potentised pill and put it in a bottle with a load of plain sugar pills, and it'll transfer its magical properties to the rest of the pills. You need never buy more than one pill! Apparently it works just as well for liquid remedies: you just need to top them up with more solvent (don't shake it though, as this would make it more powerful).

I'm not making this up, honest! Homoeopaths call this "grafting".

[Cuddles]

I'm not making this up, honest! Homoeopaths call this "grafting".

I you sure they don't mean "grifting"?:tongue:

[Matt]

Well I'm convinced it's all true. After all they sell homeopathic remedies in Boots the chemist and they've got patient information leaflets like this one (http://www.boots.com/images/product/1031329/gsl_leaf.pdf) which warn against overdosing and mixing with other medications.

My pharmicist wouldn't lie to me.

:-\

[Mongrel]

Well I'm convinced it's all true. After all they sell homeopathic remedies in Boots the chemist and they've got patient information leaflets like this one (http://www.boots.com/images/product/1031329/gsl_leaf.pdf) which warn against overdosing and mixing with other medications.

My pharmicist wouldn't lie to me.

:-\

And did you ask the pharmacist?

1) Boots (and other pharmacies) are businesses, if the customers can't find their magic pills there they'll take their business to somewhere that does, that often includes prescriptions as well.

2) The wording on the warnings implies that there's a therapeutic effect and looks like standard boilerplate for any OTC drug. Also the leaflet is probably a stock leaflet from Nelsons (the manufacturers) with Boots branding added.

3) Pharmacists, for the most part, know that homeopathy is rubbish, unfortunately (aside from 1) Boots pharmacists have virtually no control over what goes onto the shelves or where it's placed in store - blame the marketing drones for that one

On a minor 'plus' point if the altie stuff is being sold in a pharmacy it's possible that actual health issues, as opposed to just 'worried well', may be picked up and properly treated\referred by the pharmacist

[Matt]

And did you ask the pharmacist?

No she was busy helping people with allopathic medicines and I do't think she'd have appreciated my sarcasm.


1) Boots (and other pharmacies) are businesses, if the customers can't find their magic pills there they'll take their business to somewhere that does, that often includes prescriptions as well.

Or they might buy a medicine that works instead....


2) The wording on the warnings implies that there's a therapeutic effect and looks like standard boilerplate for any OTC drug. Also the leaflet is probably a stock leaflet from Nelsons (the manufacturers) with Boots branding added.

Actually thought the leaflet I posted is reprehensible the homepathic pill in my local boots are clearly labelled as non medicinal or something like that.


3) Pharmacists, for the most part, know that homeopathy is rubbish, unfortunately (aside from 1) Boots pharmacists have virtually no control over what goes onto the shelves or where it's placed in store - blame the marketing drones for that one

Today's Dilbert seems appropriate

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20070918.html


On a minor 'plus' point if the altie stuff is being sold in a pharmacy it's possible that actual health issues, as opposed to just 'worried well', may be picked up and properly treated\referred by the pharmacist

And on the minus side it legitimises homeopathy in people's percpetions. The people with actual health issues might buy a homepathic remedy mistaking it for real medicine - after all it comes from the pharmacist.

[Mongrel]

No she was busy helping people with allopathic medicines and I do't think she'd have appreciated my sarcasm.

Evidence based medicine not allopathic ;)


Or they might buy a medicine that works instead....
If only it was that simple this board wouldn't exist

Actually thought the leaflet I posted is reprehensible the homepathic pill in my local boots are clearly labelled as non medicinal or something like that.
Bizarrely though they're licensed as medicines under a GSL (General Sales License), therefore the information leaflet has to contain standard points that are meant to cover everyday eventualities. Any issues with the way stuff is licensed should be taken up with the government.




Today's Dilbert seems appropriate

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20070918.html
;D


And on the minus side it legitimises homeopathy in people's percpetions. The people with actual health issues might buy a homepathic remedy mistaking it for real medicine - after all it comes from the pharmacist.
Don't get me wrong, I hate that this crap has the air of fake legitimacy from being sold through pharmacy but if asked their opinion on a medical condition a pharmacist will almost never (there are some advocates in the profession) say that homeopathic remedies are the answer.

Most people who want to buy CAM remedies do so without input from a healthcare professional, instead taking their advice from friends, newspaper health columnists, media celebrities, daytime TV and dubious web forums.

[Mojo]

Don't get me wrong, I hate that this crap has the air of fake legitimacy from being sold through pharmacy but if asked their opinion on a medical condition a pharmacist will almost never (there are some advocates in the profession) say that homeopathic remedies are the answer.

Most people who want to buy CAM remedies do so without input from a healthcare professional, instead taking their advice from friends, newspaper health columnists, media celebrities, daytime TV and dubious web forums.
Which gives homoeopaths a problem with regard to the sort of homoeopathic remedies sold by Boots which claim to be a treatment for a particular condition.

Homoeopaths regularly claim that the reason homoeopathic medicines fail to show efficacy in controlled trials is that the consultation and individualistion process is an essential part of the treatment (see, for example, the comment by Jerome Whitney here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=387452&in_page_id=1774&in_page_id=1774&expand=true#StartComments)), with some even invoking quantum entanglement (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16296916) as an excuse.

In the case of the condition-specific remedies sold by Boots, this is clearly not the case. They are supposed to treat a particular condition, there is no individualisation involved, and they are sold "off the shelf" so there is certainly no consultation involved. These "medicines" should be entirely suited to being tested in controlled trials.

If homoeopaths are serious about their objections to controlled trials, they should be denouncing these medicines. I'm not holding my breath.

[wooo_oops]

IIRC Randi does something similar at his lectures/talks - he starts by downing a full bottle of homeopathic sleeping tablets.

I hope he doesn't do that too often. He could bring on diabetes.;D

[SKIRRID5]

If I were Randi, I'd be a teeny bit nervous about doing that stunt with the pills. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that some fanatical woo-woo enthusiast might try to spike the pills with poison to "prove" they are real?
I suppose ol'Randi would spot the necessary sleight of hand, but still...

[tkingdoll]

Mongrel, just as a point of politeness, if you don't like it when people blame the pharmacist, you might want to reconsider your labelling of marketeers as 'drones'.

Thanks!

[Acleron]

Well I'm convinced it's all true. After all they sell homeopathic remedies in Boots the chemist and they've got patient information leaflets like this one (http://www.boots.com/images/product/1031329/gsl_leaf.pdf) which warn against overdosing and mixing with other medications.

My pharmicist wouldn't lie to me.

:-\
The practice of homeopathy takes a material that causes a symptom and uses that to cure that symptom in a sufferer.
From the leaflet Matt references


The Euphrasia in this product, otherwise known as Eyebright due to its popular use for centuries as a treatment for eye Hayfever Relief problems, is sourced from several countries including Hungary

Shouldn't this produce eye problems?

[Cuddles]

The practice of homeopathy takes a material that causes a symptom and uses that to cure that symptom in a sufferer.
From the leaflet Matt references

Shouldn't this produce eye problems?

The trouble you're having there is that you're assuming homeopaths actually try to be consistent, or even make any kind of sense at all. While the theory of homeopathy takes a material and uses it to cure the symptoms it causes, the actual practice of homeopathy takes a material and makes up some crap about it. If you're lucky that is, a lot of the time they don't bother taking a material first. Moonbeam and antimatter remedies for all. And yes, those do actually exist.

[Julia]

I've only had one experience of homeopathic medicine. My father went to Boots to get some anti-catarrh medicine for me and came back with what turned out to be a bottle of homeopathic pills. According to the instructions the child dose was half that of the adult dose, which surely makes it TWICE as strong? When I explained to my father what homeopathy actually was he thought I was joking. He was under the impression - which I think is very widespread - that homeopathic medicines were merely natural remedies containing none of those nasty 'chemicals'. ::)

[DrS]

Excuse my ignorance, please, but are Bach Remedies homeopathic?

[wooo_oops]

noop, they are:

Step One: Mother tinctures are prepared from plant material and natural spring water using either the Sun or Boiling Method as defined by Dr Bach.
Step Two: The mother tincture is made up of the energised spring water [Step one] mixed with an equal quantity of 40% brandy. The brandy acts purely as a preservative for the remedy.
Step Three: To make the stock bottle, the mother tincture is added to 27% grape alcohol.

Booze! :smiley:

But he was homeopathic, though.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I've only had one experience of homeopathic medicine. My father went to Boots to get some anti-catarrh medicine for me and came back with what turned out to be a bottle of homeopathic pills. According to the instructions the child dose was half that of the adult dose, which surely makes it TWICE as strong? When I explained to my father what homeopathy actually was he thought I was joking. He was under the impression - which I think is very widespread - that homeopathic medicines were merely natural remedies containing none of those nasty 'chemicals'. ::)

I think we underestimate the amount of confusion. I'm not aware of any surveys, but I would imagine most of the population thinks homeopathic and natural remedies are the same thing. After all, you just go into Holland and Barratt and they are on the same shelf.

3 or 4 years ago, my wife was getting bad cramps in her calf and she got some homeopathic pills from H&B after speaking to a woman in the shop. There isn't anything in big letters written on the bottle to let you know they are homeopathic, and at the time I probably thought to myself, I'll not say anything even though I know it probably won't help, and she wasn't going to die from the cramp.

I know an awful lot more now about the whole alt med domain than I did then, but I don't think very many of the population do.

[SKIRRID5]

Yes, I've found people tend to believe homeopathic means merely "natural" or "herbal". This is a good example of ignorance and not bothering to think. Most people, unless they are completely illiterate, have the INFORMATION to work out what the word means, but in a thousand years they wouldn't bother. What did it say on cartons of milk (if it doesn't now)? "Homogenised" meaning made all the same, the milk and cream being mixed. Of course loads of folk would think it meant "made gay" and want to fire-bomb the dairy!

[bindeweede]

"Homogenised" meaning made all the same, the milk and cream being mixed. Of course loads of folk would think it meant "made gay" and want to fire-bomb the dairy!

Is that not just a bit over-the-top? Well, totally silly, really.

[Jocky]

I think we underestimate the amount of confusion. I'm not aware of any surveys, but I would imagine most of the population thinks homeopathic and natural remedies are the same thing. After all, you just go into Holland and Barratt and they are on the same shelf.

3 or 4 years ago, my wife was getting bad cramps in her calf and she got some homeopathic pills from H&B after speaking to a woman in the shop. There isn't anything in big letters written on the bottle to let you know they are homeopathic

I used to suffer from exactly the same confusion - and I'm sure that unconscious blind trust in Holland and Barrett's shelf-labelling policy was one of the reasons.

However, the day when I happened to stumble across the truth about Homeopathy was an important first step on my personal road to skepticism. When I realised what transparent nonsense it is, and that my humble knowledge of chemistry from schooldays was easily sufficient to understand and explain the reason why, I felt empowered to start asking questions. I have never looked back.

Shortly after this epiphany, I actually went so far as to go into Holland and Barrett and start asking questions. I explained my concerns to the bloke behind the counter, but he just looked back at me pityingly and said, "Well sir, that's just the way homeopathy works, you see?" Unfortunately, I didn't have the presence of mind or the confidence in my knowledge at the time to tell him that homeopathy has been shown not to work in many clinical studies.

I walked out of the shop, and from that day to this I have never darkened their doors again. However, it was an important learning experience, and for that I suppose I should be grateul.

[siestatime]

noop, they are:

Step One: Mother tinctures are prepared from plant material and natural spring water using either the Sun or Boiling Method as defined by Dr Bach.
Step Two: The mother tincture is made up of the energised spring water [Step one] mixed with an equal quantity of 40% brandy. The brandy acts purely as a preservative for the remedy.
Step Three: To make the stock bottle, the mother tincture is added to 27% grape alcohol.

Booze! :smiley:

So it's a mixture of brandy and water then.
How is this spring water "energised"?

[tolman]

By step one,
Though the description is bad, since it refers to making the mother tincture in both steps 1 and 2, when really, it should start by saying

"To prepare a mother tincture, first energise the spring water by adding random plant stuff.
It doesn't really matter what you use since it'll end up dluted to **** anyway."

[siestatime]

So the plant tincture is diluted with brandy the same as for a homeopathic remedy.
OK. I think.

[bindeweede]

So the plant tincture is diluted with brandy the same as for a homeopathic remedy.
OK. I think.

Siestatime,

I don't think homeopathy uses anything as nice as brandy. Just water. But it does get a damned good shaking. Succussing? Not sure about that word, or its spelling.???

[siestatime]

Siestatime,

I don't think homeopathy uses anything as nice as brandy. Just water. But it does get a damned good shaking. Succussing? Not sure about that word, or its spelling.???

I'll try again, using English this time.

"So the plant tincture is diluted as if it were a homeopathic remedy, but using brandy instead of water."

If it gets a damned good shaking, it probably deserved one. ;)

[DrS]

So is there any trace of an active ingredient in a Bach remedy ... apart from the booze, that is! :cheesy:

[siestatime]

So is there any trace of an active ingredient in a Bach remedy ... apart from the booze, that is! :cheesy:

I always assumed that Bach's Flower Remedies were a sort of portable and undiluted version of herbal remedies, such as camomile and limeflower teas. Shows how much I know. :smiley:

Some friends of mine, who are quite level-headed, swear by the Bach Flower Rescue Remedy, they take it when they have to travel by plane. They said it was a mixture of five -or was it seven? - anyway, a mixture of herbs/plants/vegetation in general. That's where my mistaken ideas come from.

Now I know it's a load of drivel.

Time and again this forum has made me take a long, hard look at ideas that I had taken for granted. It isn't easy having all your props taken away from you, sometimes it's scary, but I feel much more in control of my own life.

What a long spiel and I hope you haven't dropped off reading it.

So, yes, DrS and myself would like to know if there is anything in these bottles apart from brandy and whitewash.

[DrS]

And apart from hogwash too! ;D

[siestatime]

And apart from hogwash too! ;D

and let's not forget the teensiest aroma of bullshit.

To be honest, I'm quite peeved that some alternative crap got past me. I feel as though I've been asleep at the wheel.

Next thing you know, someone here on the forum is going to tell me that crystal healing doesn't work. ;)

*stalks off to find out more ....a-Googling we shall go, a-Googling we shall go,...*

[DrS]

It´s the pretty bottles and stands they´re displayed on that do it! I tried some once and found it made no difference whatsoever. This is the first time I´ve been able to ask about it because most people seem to take their effectiveness for granted. ::)

[siestatime]

Oh dear.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mentprod.html

http://csicop.org/si/9509/alternativism.html

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68470

http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=488

As in the words of the great Roger Daltrey:

"Won't get fooled again" ;)

[DrS]

How embarrassing ... Google would have helped more than Bach ever could! :-[

Vibrations of flowers and brandy: ahhhhhhh. Sounds lovely! Shame it´s totally useless. ^-^

Thanks, Siesta.

[siestatime]

We appear to have hijacked this thread with our Bach flower queries - never mind.

One more alternative medicine dies the dust.

At least you get a nice drink of brandy. ;)

[Acleron]

We appear to have hijacked this thread with our Bach flower queries - never mind.

One more alternative medicine dies the dust.

At least you get a nice drink of brandy. ;)

Purely because of this thread I ventured into Holland and Barretts to seek the truth or the woo (actually I was following the C2H5OH) and the Bach cons do not mention brandy only grape alcohol :undecided:

[siestatime]

From the Doctor Edward Bach Centre, FAQ:



How do you take remedies?

The remedies come as a liquid, preserved in brandy. To take them, dilute two drops of each remedy into a 30ml dropper bottle, top up with mineral water, and take four drops four times a day. Alternatively you can put the two drops into a glass of water, and sip from that at intervals. More here:

http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/faq.htm

Grape alcohol isn't the same as brandy.

[Pebble]

From the Doctor Edward Bach Centre, FAQ:



What did Dr Bach die of, and why did he die so young?

Dr Bach had cancer, but in fact died of exhaustion rather than because of the disease itself. Because he was only 50 when he died people have sometimes asked why he wasn't able to cure himself. What this question ignores is the fact that in 1917 he was given just 3 months to live. The truth is that he was curing himself, every day, for nineteen years - all the time it took for him to complete his work

Above is from the link provided: I think this looks suspiciously like a claim to treat cancer! Makes you wonder what is claimed during private consultations where skeptics are not watching.>:-)