Messages from Miscarriages

[tolman]

I await the day when I see people who claim to be genuine mediums clamouring for the prosecution and imprisonment of fake mediums, and the recovery of any money they criminally acquired from vulnerable people.

[Tin Lizzie]

I await the day when I see people who claim to be genuine mediums clamouring for the prosecution and imprisonment of fake mediums, and the recovery of any money they criminally acquired from vulnerable people.

Hmm...problem is, then these mediums would be thrust in to the public eye.

There was a woman - can't remember her name but i'll try to dig up a link - who during the second world war gave a message to a member of the group sitting in on her session, telling her that her son was with her and that he had died when his ship was sunk in the far east.

Official news of this sinking did not reach the public for another 3 weeks. This medium was imprisoned, as a danger to security.

bear with me for links.

[Melanie]

That was Helen Duncan.

[Melanie]

I await the day when I see people who claim to be genuine mediums clamouring for the prosecution and imprisonment of fake mediums, and the recovery of any money they criminally acquired from vulnerable people.


TL - the point is that none of the above could prove their genuineness.


Here's a good link about the Helen Duncan case.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1997285,00.html

[chillzero]

This reminds me. I must write up the fallacy that I named the Argument to Sanctimony!!

Not charging for readings does not make a medium 'genuine'. The idea that they do it to help people and not for self gain is simply feigned piety: they may not charge money but they do it for their own self-serving reasons. Even if it's only to make themselves feel good or special.

Exactly.

Plus, agreeing to put yourself in the public eye means more people can examine your words, and identify more clearly when you are wrong.

It is much easier to be a medium if you restrict your exposure, and have as few of your 'predictions' recorded as possible. I can attest to this from personal experience, as I used to believe I was psychic, and opening myself to testing and giving clearer consideration to what I 'predicted' made it obvious I was mistaken.

[Admin]

You have a case

I know!


but you are again ignoring the possibility that there are people out their with real skills that have real use.

Well here's another thing. Believers like to talk about 'possibilities' (nothings impossible, right?) but skeptics like to talk about 'probabilities' (they're more precise at least).

Whilst I won't say that psychic ability (of any kind) is impossible, I would say that as they have all been tested for time and time again and none of it has been validated in any way (and of course there are better alternative explanations) that the probability of any psychic ability being real is so small as to be negligible and indistinguishable from zero.

So yes, I do start from the scientific (i.e. falsifiable ;)) conclusion that psychic powers are not real.

I'll change my mind if that scientifically sound conclusion is ever falsified.


To instantly assume they are feigning piety - that's quite insulting.

I'm not saying that they're consciously feigning piety (making an Argument to Sanctimony) any more than you are consciously making an Argument to Ignorance when you state your "no-one's proved it false" arguments. The fallacies are being made nonetheless however.


I mean, I could say that everyone who writes anything on here is just attention-seeking, that they are just trying to get applause or congratulation from others, particularly when jumping on the 'bash the believer' bandwagon.

You could attribute many causes as to why people post on here, but then again, it could also be applied to you or anyone else who posts on forums.

[chillzero]

You have a case, but you are again ignoring the possibility that there are people out their with real skills that have real use. To instantly assume they are feigning piety - that's quite insulting.

A lot less insulting than claiming to have information about a person that is claimed to have come from a deceased relative.

[tolman]

TL - the point is that none of the above could prove their genuineness.
Well, then, they shouldn't be allowed to give readings for money.
If people are giving readings for free, they couldn't be accused of fraud.
If people are selling a psychic service, they should be able to convince a jury they can actually provide that service, whether it's mediumship, healing, or anything else. If they don't think they can convince a jury, they should get an honest job.

[Tin Lizzie]

I've kind of learned that argument about proving things false. I know the onus is on me to prove things to you, which is why i am willing to discuss things if you would like and if and when you have the time
If science is going to be the only acceptable method of 100% proof, the i doubt we'll get too far!
Could be very interesting though ;)
cheers

[Tin Lizzie]

A lot less insulting than claiming to have information about a person that is claimed to have come from a deceased relative.

Which is, of course, only insulting if the medium is lying

[Tin Lizzie]

That was Helen Duncan.

Thanks Melanie

What is the skeptic view on her case?

[Tin Lizzie]

A wee example, as related by a medium friend (you won't find her in any adverts or anything so no point naming her). i will call her Jane and her friend Chris.

Jane and chris were sitting and chatting. the conversation was mostly about the aspects of the funeral arrangements for chris's mum, who had died two days previously.
As they were talking, jane felt a tugging sensation on her face. she thought nothing of it, but suddenly she sensed the presence of spirit and had vision and strong sense of chris's mum. chris was shocked and speechless; jane's face contorted into that of chris's' mum, and jane was surrounded by a very white misty light.
the sensation in jane's face stopped as suddenly as it had begun. jane did not find this unusual, although she had no idea what had happened. chris was, to say the least, both shocked and delighted.

No verbal message was received. make of this what you will.

[chillzero]

Which is, of course, only insulting if the medium is lying

No. I find it insulting that people make claims, without having the respect for others that they inflict themselves on, to ensure that their own claims are valid.

[Admin]

What is the skeptic view on her case?

Here's Helen Duncan connecting with 'spirit':

http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/duncan_spirit.jpg

And....

http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/duncan_spirit2.jpg

As can be seen a genuine medium.

Believe it or not, some people really believe that this is 'spirit manifestation'!!! ;D

[tablemonkey]

A wee example, as related by a medium friend (you won't find her in any adverts or anything so no point naming her). i will call her Jane and her friend Chris.

Jane and chris were sitting and chatting. the conversation was mostly about the aspects of the funeral arrangements for chris's mum, who had died two days previously.
As they were talking, jane felt a tugging sensation on her face. she thought nothing of it, but suddenly she sensed the presence of spirit and had vision and strong sense of chris's mum. chris was shocked and speechless; jane's face contorted into that of chris's' mum, and jane was surrounded by a very white misty light.
the sensation in jane's face stopped as suddenly as it had begun. jane did not find this unusual, although she had no idea what had happened. chris was, to say the least, both shocked and delighted.

No verbal message was received. make of this what you will.

Tin lizzie, Do you accept this example as evidence?

[Tin Lizzie]

Tin lizzie, Do you accept this example as evidence?

yes i do, because i know the person well enough to believe them. of course i am subjective in my judgement because i have experience of spirit communication myself, but it does come down to whether or not you are prepared to accept such anecdotes. i am, but in this case only because i know the person and the conditions in which this transfiguration occurred.

[Tin Lizzie]

No. I find it insulting that people make claims, without having the respect for others that they inflict themselves on, to ensure that their own claims are valid.

I am not entirely sure what you mean. could you give an example, please?

[Tin Lizzie]

Here's Helen Duncan connecting with 'spirit':

http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/duncan_spirit.jpg

And....

http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/duncan_spirit2.jpg

As can be seen a genuine medium.

Believe it or not, some people really believe that this is 'spirit manifestation'!!! ;D

Blimey.

Well that looks like a complete load of fakery.

So, how was it possible for Helen Duncan to have known of this sailor's death weeks before news was released to the public?

[chillzero]

I am not entirely sure what you mean. could you give an example, please?

If a person makes a claim about being psychic, or hearing the voices of dead people, then they should be open to testing that claim thoroughly. Preferably before slotting themselves into people's personal lives.

[Tin Lizzie]

If a person makes a claim about being psychic, or hearing the voices of dead people, then they should be open to testing that claim thoroughly. Preferably before slotting themselves into people's personal lives.

Absolutely. I don't know what your feelings and experiences are on these things and please understand i don't want to change anyone's feelings and i certainly don't want to give any advice. My main goal is to find that link betwen science and spirit, because i don't think that current methods can cover every aspect of mediumship.

I do know several mediums & psychics who have a gift which they do not want to talk about. these are gifts of premonition which could help people. i respect them for not interfering with people as much as i detest the 'glory grabbers' who really don't care for their sitters' emotions.

[Matt]

Blimey.

Well that looks like a complete load of fakery.

So, how was it possible for Helen Duncan to have known of this sailor's death weeks before news was released to the public?

Possibly the same way Sarah was able to predict lottery numbers: dumb luck. Make enough guesses, one's bound to come right sooner or later.

Alternatively post hoc rationalization. I suggest the following scenario consistent with the limited accounts I've hurridly researched.


During one séance held shortly after the Barham’s loss in late 1941 she reportedly summoned the spirit of a sailor who announced, “My ship is sunk” to the astonished audience. The sailor reportedly wore a Royal Navy hatband with the name “HMS Barham.” This episode occurred while Barham’s loss remained a heavily guarded secret.

http://www.webatomics.com/jason/barhamconspiracy.html

A person sympathetic to spiritualism and a parent of an HMS Barham serviceman attends a demonstration by Duncan in the Naval town of Portsmouth.

Duncan in dim lighting conditions performs a illusion of manifesting spirit by regurgitating cheesecloth.

The "spirit" take the form of a sailor who says "My ship is sunk"

The parent used to seeing her son's hatband saying HMS Barham sees the hatband of the puppet in the illusion and through poor lighting, familiarity with the name, expectation and worry, conflates it with "HMS Barham."

She wonders to herself if it was HMS Barham she saw at the seance. As a believer she is inclined to suspect that it must be a message for someone in the audience and certainty begins to form in her mind.

A few weeks later she is infomred of the loss of her son's ship. Not only are all doubts removed that it was HMS Barham she saw on the hatband but she begins to forget that she ever had doubts.

Within the constraints of secrecy requested by the admiralty she doesn't mention this news to anyone else until it is made public, however to her, Duncan is allready in on t he secret and the matter can be dicussed freely with the noted spiritualist.

Duncan of course confrms that she knew of the Barhams loss all along. In classic cold reading style, details that were never mentioned at the original seance become retrofitted into the story until the believer is convinced that Duncan "announced the loss of the Barham" before the news became public.

Helen Duncan trumpets this notable success with scant regard to the truth of the matter, her witness backing her up all the way. Perhaps even revealing the secret publically after it had been revealed to family members but before it was known publically.

That would really rub the admiralty up the worng way.

It's just a suggestion...

Another suggestion is that rather than cold reading she used hot reading. Perhaps living in portsmouth she got wind of a naval secret through the sort of detective work described by reformed Medium M Lammar Keene in his book The Psychic Mafia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573921610/csicop)

In this scenario the hatband really would say HMS Barham.

If that were the case then then she put selfserving motives above national security. Considering that possibility, is it any suprise that elements of the admiralty would want her locked up during the planning of operation overlord.

[tolman]

I'd have thought there was always the possibility of simple gossip.
Even if news isn't released to the general public, there could still be various people who know - ship sinkings might not be immediately broadcast, but also might not be considered as the highest-level secrets.
If Duncan did indeed have the odd high-profile client, it's not hard to imagine the possibility of someone letting something slip, and her using that either knowingly or unknowingly.
If someone honestly believed she was psychic, and she'd dropped some vague hints about a ship sinking, they might even have thought she already psychically knew, and have seen little harm in confirming it. After all, it's not the kind of information likely to be useful to an enemy.

[Tin Lizzie]

Possibly the same way Sarah was able to predict lottery numbers: dumb luck. Make enough guesses, one's bound to come right sooner or later.

Alternatively post hoc rationalization. I suggest the following scenario consistent with the limited accounts I've hurridly researched.



http://www.webatomics.com/jason/barhamconspiracy.html

A person sympathetic to spiritualism and a parent of an HMS Barham serviceman attends a demonstration by Duncan in the Naval town of Portsmouth.

Duncan in dim lighting conditions performs a illusion of manifesting spirit by regurgitating cheesecloth.

The "spirit" take the form of a sailor who says "My ship is sunk"

The parent used to seeing her son's hatband saying HMS Barham sees the hatband of the puppet in the illusion and through poor lighting, familiarity with the name, expectation and worry, conflates it with "HMS Barham."

She wonders to herself if it was HMS Barham she saw at the seance. As a believer she is inclined to suspect that it must be a message for someone in the audience and certainty begins to form in her mind.

A few weeks later she is infomred of the loss of her son's ship. Not only are all doubts removed that it was HMS Barham she saw on the hatband but she begins to forget that she ever had doubts.

Within the constraints of secrecy requested by the admiralty she doesn't mention this news to anyone else until it is made public, however to her, Duncan is allready in on t he secret and the matter can be dicussed freely with the noted spiritualist.

Duncan of course confrms that she knew of the Barhams loss all along. In classic cold reading style, details that were never mentioned at the original seance become retrofitted into the story until the believer is convinced that Duncan "announced the loss of the Barham" before the news became public.

Helen Duncan trumpets this notable success with scant regard to the truth of the matter, her witness backing her up all the way. Perhaps even revealing the secret publically after it had been revealed to family members but before it was known publically.

That would really rub the admiralty up the worng way.

It's just a suggestion...

Another suggestion is that rather than cold reading she used hot reading. Perhaps living in portsmouth she got wind of a naval secret through the sort of detective work described by reformed Medium M Lammar Keene in his book The Psychic Mafia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573921610/csicop)

In this scenario the hatband really would say HMS Barham.

If that were the case then then she put selfserving motives above national security. Considering that possibility, is it any suprise that elements of the admiralty would want her locked up during the planning of operation overlord.

two things to say: thanks, and FIDDLESTICKS!! i had hoped that this one would be genuine, but my hopes seem to have been thoroughly pillaged, savaged and burned.

Unless of course, what you have suggested is not what actually happened. Well i'm off to follow the only means of research at my disposal, until then i personally am utterly miffed, particularly after viewing the remarkably clown-faced people claimed to be 'spirits'. i could be wrong of course - they may have been seriously disfigured. I doubt it. rats.

[Tin Lizzie]

hmmm....thought some of you might be keen on this one :smiley:

remember where you saw it first O0

[Tin Lizzie]

hmmm....thought some of you might be keen on this one :smiley:

remember where you saw it first O0

whoops forgot the link!

http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.html

[Admin]

whoops forgot the link!

http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.html

The afterlife is real until someone proves it false.

Where have we seen that logic before? ;) ;D

I call him 'Mr. Argument to Ignorance' - he's well known in skeptic circles and is considered to be something of a joke.

You might like this: http://www.aaskolnick.com/dammit/

Much better!! :cheesy:

It's hilarious actually - read some of the stories.

[Araneus]

http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.html

He's a lawyer, which probably explains why he doesn't know what "evidence" means in a scientific context, as opposed to a legal one.


Then the onus is on the applicant to demonstrate WHERE, WHEN, WHY, and HOW the expressly stated evidence is not valid.Only in your legal world, Mr Zammit, not the scientific one.

Somehow I can't see scientists or skeptics queuing up to attempt to convince a lawyer and his group of afterlife-believing cronies that the afterlife does not exist. It's an entertaining parody of the JREF challenge, but nothing more.

[vbloke]

whoops forgot the link!

http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.htmlThat one is simple to test and prove.

I merely secretly tell Mr Zammit a secret code word and then kill him.

If any psychic channels a message from him containing that code word (and I'd make sure to get every one I could find on the case), plus all the other methods that he cites as "evidence" of an afterlife, then there's proof the afterlife exists. if not, there's proof that it doesn't.

Plus, we'd be rid of Zammit to boot.

[Tin Lizzie]

That one is simple to test and prove.

I merely secretly tell Mr Zammit a secret code word and then kill him.

If any psychic channels a message from him containing that code word (and I'd make sure to get every one I could find on the case), plus all the other methods that he cites as "evidence" of an afterlife, then there's proof the afterlife exists. if not, there's proof that it doesn't.

Plus, we'd be rid of Zammit to boot.

And hopefully that million spondoolicks would be enough to bail you out of the murder charge? (presuming you carried out said act yourself)

[vbloke]

And hopefully that million spondoolicks would be enough to bail you out of the murder charge? (presuming you carried out said act yourself)But if there really is an afterlife, I won't really have killed him, as he will have survived bodily death, so how could you make a murder charge stick?

[Tin Lizzie]

But if there really is an afterlife, I won't really have killed him, as he will have survived bodily death, so how could you make a murder charge stick?

Er, suppose i'll need a lawyer to work around that one. I think in the court of laws 'killing' refers to ending said bodily existence without reference to spiritual existence, but i may be wrong.

[Tin Lizzie]

The afterlife is real until someone proves it false.

Where have we seen that logic before? ;) ;D

I call him 'Mr. Argument to Ignorance' - he's well known in skeptic circles and is considered to be something of a joke.

You might like this: http://www.aaskolnick.com/dammit/

Much better!! :cheesy:

It's hilarious actually - read some of the stories.


;D;D;D

Nice one Centurion...like it, like it

[vbloke]

Er, suppose i'll need a lawyer to work around that one. I think in the court of laws 'killing' refers to ending said bodily existence without reference to spiritual existence, but i may be wrong.Ah, but if there's evidence of life after death, then he's not dead in the traditional sense, but lives on in another form, so he's not strictly dead.

[Araneus]

Er, suppose i'll need a lawyer to work around that one.

Well that's convenient, because he is a lawyer. He would therefore have the rare chance to represent his own murderer in court from beyond the grave.

[Tin Lizzie]

Well that's convenient, because he is a lawyer.

Sherlock...;)

[Tin Lizzie]

Ah, but if there's evidence of life after death, then he's not dead in the traditional sense, but lives on in another form, so he's not strictly dead.

:ponder:

Hhhmmm...perhaps we need to pass through the new law 'sending someone to the other side without their consent' or something...

:smiley:

[lara123]

prehaps a preferred alternative would be to kill me,i'll give a code to farside first!;D;D;D;D

farside-all is said with jest.;D

[The Great Bymble]

Alternatively post hoc rationalization. I suggest the following scenario consistent with the limited accounts I've hurridly researched.

http://www.webatomics.com/jason/barhamconspiracy.html

A person sympathetic to spiritualism and a parent of an HMS Barham serviceman attends a demonstration by Duncan in the Naval town of Portsmouth.

Duncan in dim lighting conditions performs a illusion of manifesting spirit by regurgitating cheesecloth.

The "spirit" take the form of a sailor who says "My ship is sunk"

The parent used to seeing her son's hatband saying HMS Barham sees the hatband of the puppet in the illusion and through poor lighting, familiarity with the name, expectation and worry, conflates it with "HMS Barham."

She wonders to herself if it was HMS Barham she saw at the seance. As a believer she is inclined to suspect that it must be a message for someone in the audience and certainty begins to form in her mind.

.
By 1941 RN capbands should have read simply 'HMS' -lots of room for retro-fitting there!
I prefer the 'hot reading' theory given the potential for the news of Barham's sinking to spread within naval circles.

[Tin Lizzie]

By 1941 RN capbands should have read simply 'HMS' -lots of room for retro-fitting there!
I prefer the 'hot reading' theory given the potential for the news of Barham's sinking to spread within naval circles.

Given mrs. duncans apparent lack of hotness ::), i doubt this. secrecy was kept at the highest level, but you are right about the hatband.

[tolman]

Given mrs. duncans apparent lack of hotness ::), i doubt this. secrecy was kept at the highest level, but you are right about the hatband.
In fact, the public announcement of the loss was kept quiet for a fraction under 2 months (supposedly since the Germans weren't completely certain which ship they'd sunk, though it seems that they knew they'd sunk something, possibly also for morale reasons).
However, relatives of the crew were informed only a few weeks after the sinking, and were asked to keep the news to themselves and immediate family. That's not exactly 'Top Secret Ultra', and even if no-one spoke out, I'd imagine it'd be hard for relatives not to give anything away by their emotions. How much of a secret it really was some places, I'd wonder.
Equally, if the average relative was notified after a few weeks, one wonders just how many people were informed rather sooner.

If you're weighing up the likelihood of an information leak from any one of a number of people vs. someone having real psychic powers, I think you'd need more than one seeming hit before making a conclusion in favour of psychic abilities, especially for someone with a talent for laughable 'manifestations'. You'd also need to have some idea of how many people actually knew what had happened when the manifestation is supposed to have taken place.

[Tin Lizzie]

However, relatives of the crew were informed only a few weeks after the sinking, and were asked to keep the news to themselves and immediate family. That's not exactly 'Top Secret Ultra', and even if no-one spoke out, I'd imagine it'd be hard for relatives not to give anything away by their emotions. How much of a secret it really was some places, I'd wonder..

And that closes that case for me really. Oh...well.
It was those 'manifestations' - I can't remember exactly, but there is a horror movie with almost identical clown-type thing in it.
That, anf the fact that she had a previous conviction for false manifestation....hmm

Still, for me personally I am not going to let that detract from the work of a very small minority of modern mediums, who use their gift to ease suffering and in cases pull people back from the verge of suicide. Can't be such a bad thing?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Noticed the Psychic Barber forums are still down. Wonder where all those lovely people are at the moment!

Nice to see censorship alive and well these days. O0




The Psychic Barber Forum

The Psychic Barber forum is currently being updated to ensure that unwelcome posts and inappropriate links are removed and those who have made such postings are barred from using the forum. As part of this update we plan on changing the forum from an open forum to a closed forum – where those who would like to join the forum will have to submit their details and why they want to join to ensure that they will be making valid contributions. Those of you who are already active members of the forum your membership will remain in place and your details will remain the same. We hope to get the forum back up and running in the next few weeks and apologize for the inconvenience.
Best Wishes Gordon and the Hay House Team

[bindeweede]

Farside

I've not had a peak over there for ages - it seems to have been down for quite a long time, just for "updating".

Anyway, off-topic, but I joined the "Stumble" thing - good innit? Some great sites in "Humour".

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Hi BW,

I'm still having fun with StumbleUpon too, too many good sites to fully digest though. There is some funny stuff out there, I must agree. :smiley:

[InForAPennyInForApound]

More hogwash...


http://www.thepsychicbarber.co.uk/images/title_v3.gif
"Hailed as the UK's most accurate medium"
– Daily Mail



'What I have is a gift, a gift that must not be abused for self-gain, but must be given freely to those whose need is greatest and who will benefit most from it. I hope this site will help you find what you need.


:'(???:'(


I miscarried 3 babies during pregnancy, one almost 5 months and one of a twin. It was an intense agonising moment in my life; my pregnancies were planned, my babies wanted. When each one miscarried, it felt as if a part of me had died. How on earth can people go around stating that they are in contact with a miscarried foetus?? How can these people claim they see a baby that can speak? Its illogical. They call their actions a 'gift'? Damn these people! >:-)

[lara123]

farside...the lovely people i still talk with,thankyou for your thoughts.

In for a penny...please go back to my first response on here ,i am a medium who sometimes receives messages from miscarriages,meaning when they have 'grown'.

I cannot and will not deny my ability to do this,it is not said to hurt and cause pain,to you or anyone.

I did not ask or try to be a medium,it happened over-night.I was careful and studied it for five years before i gave a reading.Indeed i did'nt actually believe before it happened to me.

The problem with this forum is...after the likes of psychic sarah and brian ladd,you have the cold shoulder for most of us and eventually it all gets nasty.Which is a pity,because we all should listen and respect each other,without resorting to insults.

[bobdezon]

i am a medium who sometimes receives messages from miscarriages,meaning when they have 'grown'.

I cannot and will not deny my ability to do this,it is not said to hurt and cause pain,to you or anyone.

You are a sickening excuse for a human.>:-)

[donnygirl]

i think thats a bit harsh don't you
how can you offer an opinion like that if you don't know the lady
and it proved her point it got nasty and insulting ....first response back ..suprise:sad:

[Mongrel]

i think thats a bit harsh don't you
how can you offer an opinion like that if you don't know the lady
and it proved her point it got nasty and insulting ....first response back ..suprise:sad:

So preying on the emotionally distraught is OK until they're proven to be frauds?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

My wife and I had an unsuccessful treatment of IVF. I would be interested to hear what those two unsuccessful fertilised eggs want to tell me. How long do I need to wait until they 'grow up' in the spirit land?

Luckily our next treatment was successful, but although two eggs were implanted, we only got one baby back out. So again, I'd like a message from that failed embryo too please.

Not to mention all the possible times that fertilised eggs may have become non-viable in all those other years.

So I reckon I might have a rugby team's worth of spirits trying to get messages across to me.

This is just completely ludicrous isn't it? The people who believe in this shit, just have absolutely no comprehension of reality. Absolutely no science education. I'm sorry, but they don't deserve any respect. The people they prey on are the desperate and vulnerable.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Oh wait, how could I forget. It wasn't just two eggs that were put back in both those times. There were loads of other fertilised eggs that we brutally killed off because we decided to take the best ones.

So, I might have two rugby teams worth of spirits out there trying to give lara123 messages.

That spirit world sure is crowded.

[donnygirl]

it sure is and 3 of my babies are there too:smiley:
. 2 before 14 weeks and one at 23 weeks a daughter
i'm not desperate or vulnerable ,i'm happy but not deluded and i have a very real comprehension of reality ,it helps when you run your own business and staff to look after,i haven't a nasty bone in my body and i wouldn't class myself as emotionally distraught either just a belief system that is different to yours and doesn't that make life more interesting after all never mind the black and white there are grey areas too in life :smiley: there are frauds in all walks of life but some very real genuine people too

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

If that's what you want to believe, then fine. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want.

It's still complete bullshit though.

[bobdezon]

i think thats a bit harsh don't you
how can you offer an opinion like that if you don't know the lady
and it proved her point it got nasty and insulting ....first response back ..suprise:sad:


No its not harsh, its reality. To claim to recieve messages from miscarriages is sick and only done by truely deluded, or truely sickening individuals.

I dont care if you believe lara has some supernatural ability or not, but to defend such a position is reprehensible. If you choose to defend such a position then you yourself are almost as bad by allowing this to happen unchallenged.

[Janot]

The people who believe in this shit, just have absolutely no comprehension of reality. Absolutely no science education. I'm sorry, but they don't deserve any respect. The people they prey on are the desperate and vulnerable.I hope you are putting those who peddle this shit into a much worse category than the vulnerable who fall for it. >:-)

[Julia]

it sure is and 3 of my babies are there too:smiley:
. 2 before 14 weeks and one at 23 weeks a daughter
i'm not desperate or vulnerable ,i'm happy but not deluded and i have a very real comprehension of reality ,it helps when you run your own business and staff to look after,i haven't a nasty bone in my body and i wouldn't class myself as emotionally distraught either just a belief system that is different to yours and doesn't that make life more interesting after all never mind the black and white there are grey areas too in life :smiley: there are frauds in all walks of life but some very real genuine people too

Please read the last couple of posts again. No-one said you were emotionally distraught, desperate or vulnerable. People who claim to communicate with embryos, whether they actually believe they're doing so or are out-and-out frauds, are PREYING upon the emotionally distraught, desperate and vulnerable. And it's quite possible for a person to live in a world of fantasy, wish fulfilment and scientific ignorance whilst holding down a job and and leading a "normal" life. I think you'll find that millions of people do so every day.

[bobdezon]

I hope you are putting those who peddle this shit into a much worse category than the vulnerable who fall for it. >:-)


The victim should never receive any blame for being desperate enough to accept information like this. I dont think anyone here would class the victim as anything but that, a victim.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I hope you are putting those who peddle this shit into a much worse category than the vulnerable who fall for it. >:-)

Yes, without a doubt. Thats really what I meant.

We went over all this earlier in this thread a few months ago. Lara123 does seem to genuinely believe she has this ability.

[seren]

What kind of makes me feel ill about it is...well, chillzero mentioned it back on the first page of this thread- what about aborted foetuses? What if a woman decides she doesn't want to go through with a pregnancy for whatever reason (which may or may not be a traumatic and difficult decision), then goes ahead with procedure and handles the emotional fallout, guilt, shame etc that often comes with it, and in the middle of coming to terms with her choice, hears from some dumb f*ck that lumps of cells can "communicate" from the other side? That the foetus she chose not to carry to term is still around and wants to talk?

Yuk. Sick, disgusting, wrong.

I somehow get the impression that the kind of women who would believe in it would be the kind of women that wouldn't have abortions anyway, having vague ideas about the sanctity of life. I can only hope this is the case because I am horrified at what this kind of nonsense could do to the emotional wellbeing of women post-abortion.

[donnygirl]

'I somehow get the impression that the kind of women who would believe in it would be the kind of women that wouldn't have abortions anyway, having vague ideas about the sanctity of life. I can only hope this is the case because I am horrified at what this kind of nonsense could do to the emotional wellbeing of women post-abortion.'

hello again i do believe ,i hold my hand up to that but you know i have never said any different .
i also accept that frauds do excist in all walks of life.
as for the women who believe wouldn't have an abortion your wrong i had one with my daughter 23 weeks into pregnancy..due to the fact she was severley disabled and wouldn't have lived if she had gone to full term.. i felt tremendous guilt but i know it was the right thing to do for me and my daughter ...is it wrong that i believe if it is i make no apologies for that as you don't for your beliefs
thanks but i don't class myself as a victim i am as i said happy with my lot in life and i certainly don't class myself as living in a world of 'fantasy and wish fullfilment'
i never said the posts were aimed at me i was just putting my point of view across as one of the people you were talking about who is a believer .it was coming from my perspective ,as your points are coming from yours.
i thank you for your comments best wishes to you all:smiley:

[seren]

Hi donnygirl,

I'm keeping out of the blame game as much as possible!

In your case I'm sure it was a quality-of-life choice you felt you had to make. I was thinking more of women who abort because maybe they don't feel financially capable of having a child, or because they didn't feel ready for the responsibility of a child- these kinds of reasons some women think are "wrong" or "trivial".

To make that kind of decision and be faced by people telling you your foetus is still around....well frankly I am disgusted. I had an abortion at 17 for exactly the reasons given above and I spent so long in tears, thinking irrational things about whether my potential child "forgave" me and so on. I said at the time I could never have another child because I would always know it had a missing sibling. I was half-mad, ferrgossake!

I just can't imagine the harm of being told it was still around (if "it" sounds callous, obviously I never knew what sex it was) during that time of my life. Even now over a decade later, when I barely ever think about that whole episode, the thought of someone saying that to me makes my blood boil.

I would ask you what you feel you gain from believing. How would the world be different to you if none of it were true? That there were no spirits or afterlife, or communication with people long gone? How would you feel?

(Personally I've always hated the idea of my dead relatives being able to see me. What, on the loo? Picking my nose? They've seen my scratching my privates? That's more than I wanted them to see when they were alive!)

[donnygirl]

hi seren
thanks for you comments i have nothing but respect for the women who have to make the choice they have to for there own or the babies sake i think i am rare in thinking it is freedom of choice sorry if it's the wrong words i don't mean to sound crass or obnoxious. i can understand your thoughts we are all entitled to them as i am mine.
as for what i gain? who knows it is just my beliefs i feel at peace in myself. i know they certainly helped me when my mum died in may and i had to be the strong one for my dad so he didn't crumble
i'm not a god squader in fact when i lost my babies and my mum i lost any thoughts of god i just have my own belief system.
i can't say how the world would be different to me if none of it were true,as i have had my beliefs since i was very young.
like you some people i know hate the fact that 'they can be seen'
i find it normal as it is what i have always grown up with .
my friend at work is sceptical and believe me we have some brilliant discussions about our beliefs . but we are still really good friends, we just agree to differ on that topic.its what lifes all about if we were all the same and thought the same it would be so boring.:smiley:

[lara123]

no surprise to me about the back-lash,and wasn't i right?insults back.

You are making claims that i am sick.You do not know what i say is incorrect,it is your belief but not a fact.To call someone these names shows immaturity and cruelty,and yet you call me sick when you yourselves are mean and you do not know if it is possible what i say.

Because you do not know,you should not assume i am wrong,you have the right to question and debate but you taunt,name call and act like i'm the baddie.

There are many many people who have had abortions,through whatever reason,and some of these people have had no need to see a medium but
have sensed their child around.Your claims about the mentality of people like me are terrible insulting to these people,because you then insult them and not what they think they know but because they do know,they have had their proof,and im sure many are very sane people.

There are false mediums out there and im on your side with them,they are sick.But you say we are all sick,im far from it and know i have proved it to many people and you can try as you like to deny me this but i say the truth.

We have differing opinions...ok...and it gets your back up because you think im wrong,you do not know i AM wrong so less of the bullying.

[chillzero]

lara123,
You say there are false mediums. How does anyone tell the difference between a false one, and a real one?

[Fiona]

@ lare 123. I am very late to this thread but I have noticed you have said several times that some of the people you talk about "have had their proof" What is this proof? I am sorry if you have explained this earlier but I did not see it. If it is there then maybe you can tell me which post ?

[bindeweede]

@ lare 123. I am very late to this thread but I have noticed you have said several times that some of the people you talk about "have had their proof" What is this proof? I am sorry if you have explained this earlier but I did not see it. If it is there then maybe you can tell me which post ?

Her proof is she says she can do it. This is a very long thread - well-worth a full read.

Absolutely no proof.

[bobdezon]

no surprise to me about the back-lash,and wasn't i right? insults back.

Of course you are right, your a psychic/medium ::)


You are making claims that i am sick.

I fear you must be, or in need of some lengthy psychological assistance.



You do not know what i say is incorrect,it is your belief but not a fact.

Its a fact until you provide proof.



To call someone these names shows immaturity and cruelty,and yet you call me sick when you yourselves are mean and you do not know if it is possible what i say.

You talk to aborted foetus and tell people about it, and you call me immature and cruel? ::)


Because you do not know,you should not assume i am wrong,you have the right to question and debate but you taunt,name call and act like i'm the baddie.

I do know that you are a liar, and will retain that opinion until you provide ample proof of your claim, which you will not, because you are a liar.


There are many many people who have had abortions,through whatever reason,and some of these people have had no need to see a medium but have sensed their child around.

Yes its called grief and guilt.


Your claims about the mentality of people like me are terrible insulting to these people,because you then insult them and not what they think they know but because they do know,they have had their proof,and im sure many are very sane people.

Strawman argument, you are trying to make my comments directed soley at you also apply to the people who have aborted or miscarried. Like I said your sick.


There are false mediums out there and im on your side with them,they are sick.But you say we are all sick,im far from it and know i have proved it to many people and you can try as you like to deny me this but i say the truth.

Do not try and placate me with the old "yeah some mediums are fake but Im not one of those because I also hate them too" routine. It is insulting. You might have convinced some people you are a medium who converses with their foetus/miscarriage but that is not truth or proof, it is persuasion that they only accept because they are grieving.


We have differing opinions...ok...and it gets your back up because you think im wrong,you do not know i AM wrong so less of the bullying.

No you are not just wrong, but a sickening worthless individual who gets off on lying to people who have suffered a great loss.

[lara123]

because you can only go on what they tell you..and then you have to be careful because there are clever cold-readers and one could presume they are getting a great reading but it is untrue.You see im with you a lot on what you have to tell people,people need to wise up on psychics/mediums.If you go for a reading say nothing,practice your body-language before you go as not to give them clues.Be careful and be wise..and do not pay a penny if you do not receive a specific bit of information.

I have said before on here how i receive information,and yes,at times i may not hit the bullseye but get a' feeling around' the area,but is still quite close most of the times.

Sometimes i get a weak link,and ive yet to know why..ive never claimed to have all of the answers and im still learning,i'll never know all the whys/hows of it.

And ive said before,i dont call them up!! i dont know how to,i sense them around me and i may receive a message.

I do believe..i know..there are fakes out there..ive met some and had readings myself.There should be a certification that qualifies people to be so..thats a tricky bit how much info qualifies , but it could be done,and its a start.

The simple truth is..a medium will give out correct information,almost all of the time.There is room for error,misinterpretation on the mediums part,but over-all,the readings will be accurate and detailed, and the sitter give nothing away.

[lara123]

bobdezon... bully!

[Janot]

Isn't there a method of testing what she says - or have we been through all this in this thread already?

[bobdezon]

bobdezon... bully!


Thank you for adressing all my points in a very precise and succinct manner. I am sure there is no now doubt to the veracity of your claims. ::)

You may consider me a bully, and that is a badge I would wear proudly when dealing with people like yourself.

[bindeweede]

because you can only go on what they tell you..and then you have to be careful because there are clever cold-readers and one could presume they are getting a great reading but it is untrue.You see im with you a lot on what you have to tell people,people need to wise up on psychics/mediums.If you go for a reading say nothing,practice your body-language before you go as not to give them clues.Be careful and be wise..and do not pay a penny if you do not receive a specific bit of information.

I have said before on here how i receive information,and yes,at times i may not hit the bullseye but get a' feeling around' the area,but is still quite close most of the times.

Sometimes i get a weak link,and ive yet to know why..ive never claimed to have all of the answers and im still learning,i'll never know all the whys/hows of it.

And ive said before,i dont call them up!! i dont know how to,i sense them around me and i may receive a message.

I do believe..i know..there are fakes out there..ive met some and had readings myself.There should be a certification that qualifies people to be so..thats a tricky bit how much info qualifies , but it could be done,and its a start.

The simple truth is..a medium will give out correct information,almost all of the time.There is room for error,misinterpretation on the mediums part,but over-all,the readings will be accurate and detailed, and the sitter give nothing away.

There are false mediums out there and im on your side with them,they are sick.But you say we are all sick,im far from it and know i have proved it to many people and you can try as you like to deny me this but i say the truth.

So prove it here.

[bobdezon]

Isn't there a method of testing what she says - or have we been through all this in this thread already?


How could you possibly ask questions to a form that has never had any experience of life? All a foetus inutero would know is warmth and blackness and heart noises. That is they suddenly have a healthy happy life where they can mature beyond the foetus stage in some type of afterlife, which is filled with rainbows and meandering white rabbits.

let me just take a guess at some of these messages recieved:

"its ok mummy I dont hurt anymore"

"I dont blame you mummy you tried your best"

"I understand everything now its ok"

"I dont blame you mummy" etc etc etc,

fecking sickening and utterly pugnacious thing to tell a grieving woman.

[bindeweede]

Lara123

I have said before on here how i receive information,and yes,at times i may not hit the bullseye but get a' feeling around' the area,but is still quite close most of the times.

Do you have any percentages?

Sorry, what you write is rubbish. Like this..

The simple truth is..a medium will give out correct information,almost all of the time.There is room for error,misinterpretation on the mediums part,but over-all,the readings will be accurate and detailed, and the sitter give nothing away.

Astounding precision.

[Julia]

Ah, yes - but don't forget that according to lara123 these embryos and foetuses have somehow "grown" in the afterlife, hence their remarkable communicative skills... All I can say is that the afterlife must be uncomfortably - I might almost say hellishly - crowded by now.

I can't help wondering - what happens to the fertilized eggs that don't manage to implant themselves in the uterus wall and end up being washed away with urine or discarded in tampons and sanitary towels? Do they have "souls", and can lara123 communicate with them too?

What about late-term abortions carried out because birth would most likely kill or injure the mother? I can't imagine what such a foetus would have to say for itself - "Sorry about endangering your life, mummy, but you did the right thing and I'm happy in heaven?"

As for Lara's comments about mediums being right most of the time even when sitters give nothing away, all I can say is that
she needs to read up on cold reading and subjective validation.

[Janot]

How could you possibly ask questions to a form that has never had any experience of life? .I was only asking . So she is making claims which are inherently unverifiable. She can neither demonstrate the validity, nor can anyone else disprove it. Yep, it all sounds sick to me.

Could one not arrange for a group of females, some having lost a foetus, others not? Messages would probably not come from a non-existent foetus. Or is this just crap?

[seren]

they suddenly have a healthy happy life where they can mature beyond the foetus stage in some type of afterlife

This idea hurts like mad. So rather than taking a decision that I thought was better for myself and my potential child given the circumstances, I've in fact simply condemned them to an eternity as an orphan*. Believe me if my child is still "in existence" in some nebulous after nearly-life I would be doubled up with guilt and sorrow all my days.

lara123 please think carefully about what you're doing. Even if you think it helps, even if people come to you and ask you to do it, and even if some people say they were comforted by you, you don't know what damage you might do to some people in the long term. You've upset me, and we're talking about something that happened years ago that I generally don't even think about these days. You have not brought me comfort, you've made a foetus I chose to terminate into a thinking, feeling person that I rejected. Even though I don't believe it one iota, even the thought of that upsets me.

Even if you are honest and sincere and can't help getting these "messages", I submit to you that passing on those messages to grieving women, or any woman who has had a miscarriage or termination, is morally ambiguous at best, and has the potential to do great harm, and I urge you to reconsider this particular vocation.



*Unless their adult self is waiting in heaven.
"Hi mum!"
"Oh, er, hi. Look, sorry about all that not-giving-you-a-life business. Bit of a misunderstanding there. So, I gather you've been here all along with no family, watching the mother who rejected you have a fulfilling life without you in the earthly realms. How's that panning out?"

[Fiona]

ok. I have read this whole thread properly rather than just skimming. Meanwhile some of you have covered a lot of what occurs to me. However I would like to ask a question of Lara123, since some of this is putting answers into her mouth instead of her talking.

Lara - you have said that some of the women have "had their proof". At no time in this thread have you told us what this proof is. Now it has already been touched on, but I would really like to know from you what exactly this means. I understand that a message from a person who has died could have very specific content which could identify that person: that is not impossible in principle; indeed the absence of it is one of the main reasons sceptics remain sceptics. I do not see how this can be true of an embryo or a foetus. What exactly do these messages consist of which serves to show they are the entities you claim? They have no individualised physical appearance to describe: they have no shared memories or history; they have no character traits or quirks. I am struggling to see what they can say or send which convinces you or anyone else that they are what they or you say they are.

[lara123]

hi seren...i do not wish to hurt you,i have said that before,i truly dont.
I understand your point.sometimes people come to me because they want to know their child is ok,so say they ask me if i receive them and i do,you think i should lie?You think that would make them feel better?They come to me because im a medium so its ok to say i have their dad etc but not tell them when i sense their child standing by me who wants to talk to them and thats what some yearn for?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

ok. I have read this whole thread properly rather than just skimming. Meanwhile some of you have covered a lot of what occurs to me. However I would like to ask a question of Lara123, since some of this is putting answers into her mouth instead of her talking.

Lara - you have said that some of the women have "had their proof". At no time in this thread have you told us what this proof is. Now it has already been touched on, but I would really like to know from you what exactly this means. I understand that a message from a person who has died could have very specific content which could identify that person: that is not impossible in principle; indeed the absence of it is one of the main reasons sceptics remain sceptics. I do not see how this can be true of an embryo or a foetus. What exactly do these messages consist of which serves to show they are the entities you claim? They have no individualised physical appearance to describe: they have no shared memories or history; they have no character traits or quirks. I am struggling to see what they can say or send which convinces you or anyone else that they are what they say they are.

Nicely put Fiona.

I hope the answer isn't the same as the examples Bob gave above.

[lara123]

fiona..i have spoken to women who have had miscarriages and they have seen their child and even received messages themselves,they sensed/saw their child older,even years after.

[Fiona]

How did they know it was their's?

[bobdezon]

I was only asking .

and I am more than happy to try to answer your questions mate O0

[lara123]

mostly through clairsentience..the ones ive spoken with anyhow..they sense the information and just know who it is..if one hasn't experienced this it is difficul to comprehend i know.

[Fiona]

Try to explain this for me Lara. I do not mean to be offensive but unless you are claiming the woman is herself psychic then clairsentience sounds like "cos I told them", to me

[bindeweede]

mostly through clairsentience..the ones ive spoken with anyhow..they sense the information and just know who it is..if one hasn't experienced this it is difficul to comprehend i know.

I REALLY, REALLY am trying to understand you here. If I told you I had spoken to the fairies living in the hedge at the bottom of my garden - that I'd sensed them - what would you say to me?

[lara123]

lots of people occasionally have psychic experiences.These are women who have not had a reading themselves but once or a handful of times have had a connection.Many other people have connections and dismiss them.

I may make a psychic connection with someone but receive no mediumship.

[lara123]

bindleweed--

if you claim to have sensed them .i would ask you what they look like...and if you would draw me a pic....and if you sensed anything about them...i would ask you everything..because i would be interested..

[Fiona]

and that is exactly what I am trying to get you to do, lara. I have no picture of the process.

At first I understood you to say you pass messages. But now you say the woman senses the information- so how come she needs you? What do you actually do?

[lara123]

Thankyou fiona.

Lets start from the beginning a bit.I am a medium and a psychic.

Sometimes when i read people i can sense their loved ones.Sometimes i sense a loss from miscarriage/abortion.It is not a foetus that is connecting to me,they have grown/evolved.

Usually i receive a message when i sense them and sometimes i may receive a picture of them in my mind.

I receive connections through several ways..sensing,pictures,physical feelings,and a silent message...spirit throw the message in my mind..

On a couple of occasions i have heard them very loud in a real voice and a couple of times i have seen them as clear as i could see anyone here.

But that is not the norm...i put this jigsaw of info together and deliver it.

[bindeweede]

bindleweed--

if you claim to have sensed them .i would ask you what they look like...and if you would draw me a pic....and if you sensed anything about them...i would ask you everything..because i would be interested..



So do you feel me a female or male? I can't tell you what they looked like, as i didn't see them. I sensed them, and heard a sort of hissing/swishing noise. Eerie. Chilly.

[Fiona]

Sorry Lara. It seems to be just as I said. All the information is what you tell these women.

You "sense" a loss. A spirit contacts you and gives you a silent message. By your own admission this is not an embryo or a foetus it has "grown or evolved"
There is no way at all to show this is what you say it is. No way now and frankly no way ever. As I said - messages from someone who has died are at least in principle open to proof: this just isn't

[lara123]

no,i said earlier,i have spoken to women who made their own connections,without going to someone else for a reading.

I do not give a silent message.I receive the message silent,not in an actual voice.I receive the persons thoughts..it is silent but i can 'hear' it.

Messages from miscarriages can be proven.They can give information only you would know.

[bindeweede]

Lara

I am totally intrigued by your claimed abilites. Are you able to get psychic/medium-type feelings via, say, the internet? Can you get feelings about people this way? Can you tell anything about people just through, say, emails, or even posts on forums?

[Fiona]

Messages from miscarriages can be proven.They can give information only you would know

Like what?

[lara123]

bindleweed..a few weeks ago i started giving readings via the internet.People knew it was new for me and i didnt know if i could do it.I usually have to sit quiet and concentrate on them..their name..or user name..yes, i have had success but i find it more difficult than face to face.

[lara123]

fiona...like when the miscarriage occurred...whats happening in your life today..whos with them in spiritland,what you have been up to...all sorts of things..

[donnygirl]

in my case fiona the name i had chosen to give to my daughter that no-one else knew apart from my husband and me
someone gave me these names and other information specific to my daughter .the circumstances surrounding her last moments my husband and i told no-one not even family but this lady knew she told me specifics including what i put in her coffin ....not photographs or teddies but 2 specific items we told no_one about .
3 weeks after this my sister in law went for a group reading and was told more or less the same things from a different ladie she came and told me things we told not one person in the family as we didn't want to distress them with details, i had told them i miscarried nothing else they came and told me i had had to abort and the reasons why

[Fiona]

I do not want to touch any purple places, but do you have any idea how an embryo or a foetus could know these things?

[bindeweede]

bindleweed..a few weeks ago i started giving readings via the internet.People knew it was new for me and i didnt know if i could do it.I usually have to sit quiet and concentrate on them..their name..or user name..yes, i have had success but i find it more difficult than face to face.

Just for my own heart, can you give anything about me - even over the internet? Any vibration? Feeling?

[lara123]

fiona..out of respect for seren,i am willing to answer more about miscarriages via pm if you wish,i truly don't want to cause her distress.Farside started this thread up and i had the right to reply.Seren has stated her views and i dont wish to cause upset for her,and it has,so im pulling out of futher discussions on miscarriage.

It has not been easy for me either..i continue to get called a liar and sick ,and yet you dont know if thats so..it is a judgement and its wrong.

bindleweed...the 'niceness' of this place really wants me to offer a reading to you ah???

[chillzero]

lara,
You seem to have missed my earlier question: How can people tell the difference between real and fake mediums?

[lara123]

i did not forget...i answered it earlier.

[siestatime]

lara 123,

I have been avoiding this thread like the plague.

Like seren, this whole topic is dredging up memories.

I lost a child.

I was beside myself with grief, anguish, guilt.

I don't usually get this riled but - how on earth do you sleep at night?
Have you any idea of the damage you could cause to people who are fragile, in need of professional help?
Have you any degrees in psychology, for post-traumatic situations?
Didn't think so.
Stop this charade. Do charity work instead if you want to be useful to society.

[chillzero]

i did not forget...i answered it earlier.

Can you tell me which post, because I must have missed it?

[lara123]

Its not me dredging it up,,its your lot..ive already said i will not discuss this topic out of respect for seren and for women like you.Let it go then,but i will not back down and claim i make it up.

You do not know either what i speak of..and i chase no-one to come to me..they come to me and many have been happy ..it is a sensitive subject..ask your admin to erase this discussion then..so its ok for your lot to name call is it and insult? Seems so doesnt it,they dont agree with something they cant prove so insult.I have proved it to many women and many women believe also.

I have lost children myself and am well aware its a difficult subject but people ask me the questions,and they did so on the psychic barber forum,it was farside who brought it over here.But you expect me to shut up and not defend what i know is true.You dont believe it to be so,ok,but you dont know for sure,you cant do until you have the evidence.

I say i'll leave this topic about miscarriages alone out of respect for you and still insults fly back,i can't win.You ask how i can sleep at night? very well thankyou ,people come to me,i dont search them out and most are aware that a medium can bring anybody through.

Why did'nt you say to farside in the beginning you did'nt want this to be an open discussion? This is one for your admin and your members to let go off,they are keeping it alive.How many of you have spent time researching mediums and finding out for yourself?

I didn't come here mouthing off my mediumship,farside posted to us on the psychic barber site.If it had been the other way round you lot would of slated me barging in and insulting you.I bet he goes around other forums stirring things up and provoking people to get them over here.

Ah..but you let him off dont you?

[chillzero]

lara,
It seems that several people are becoming upset by this rather personal issue, so I suggest a slight change of topic.

You said earlier that you are a true medium, and that you believe there are also fake mediums. Can you please help me understand how people are supposed to be able to tell the difference? I know you said you already addressed this, but I can't find your post which does so. I am honestly interested in discussing this.

Please respond to the posts where questions are asked, and the discussion is calm, instead of leaving them in order to react to the posts that you claim upset you. Ignore what upsets you, and discuss the rest.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

......

Why did'nt you say to farside in the beginning you did'nt want this to be an open discussion? This is one for your admin and your members to let go off,they are keeping it alive.How many of you have spent time researching mediums and finding out for yourself?

I didn't come here mouthing off my mediumship,farside posted to us on the psychic barber site.If it had been the other way round you lot would of slated me barging in and insulting you.I bet he goes around other forums stirring things up and provoking people to get them over here.

Ah..but you let him off dont you?

But I don't.

It's safe to say I've never seen so much delusional nonsense as I did on the Psychic barber forum. Orbs, healing, clairsentience(?)spirits, crystals, etc, it was all there. All being readily accepted by the gullible people on that board.

I took exception to your claim that you pass on messages from embryos and stated you were lying. I've seen nothing to change my opinion on that.

No other posts on that forum made by me were in any way insulting or inflamatory.

Even when I pointed out the (non-paranormal) explanation for orbs, I was ridiculed by the love and light brigade over there. Childish is not an over-exaggeration for the reaction.

If you want to live in a fantasy world, then so be it. Don't complain when people try to tell you to face up to reality.

You witter on about people coming to you and being happy with the results. But you can't produce one single shred of evidence that you do anything other than cold reading.

Bob was spot on when he gave a list of possible messages that an embryo might pass on.

Fiona asked pertitent questions about how an embryo could possibly have any experience of our world.

Your answer is to say that they pass on messages that mean something or that only the receiver could know. This is classic cold reading.

The fact that you still maintain you have this ability despite how many times it has been pointed out to you that it is harmful and sick speaks volumes about the state of delusion you are in.

I don't care if you feel insulted by this post.

[tolman]

bindleweed..a few weeks ago i started giving readings via the internet.People knew it was new for me and i didnt know if i could do it.I usually have to sit quiet and concentrate on them..their name..or user name..yes, i have had success but i find it more difficult than face to face.
If you were really getting information from some spirit or other, why should it be harder doing a reading over the internet than face-to-face?
You either get the right spirit or you don't.
If your information was from a spirit, the presence or absence of subtle feedback from seeing a sitter's reactions shouldn't make any difference.

A lack of feedback would certainly make giving readings harder for someone who wasn't in touch with sprits, even if they sincerely believed that they were.

[Fiona]

most are aware that a medium can bring anybody through.So how do you know they are who they say they are? Are you absolutely sure you are not "connecting" with imps or even demons? In your shoes I would be very worried I think :smiley:

[bindeweede]

Lara,

and most are aware that a medium can bring anybody through.


Can you bring my Father through? He died January 12th this year.

Oh, and my username isn't "bindleweed".

[InForAPennyInForApound]

Lara,

There are millions of miscarried babies in this world, how can you tell which baby belongs to which mother? Does the spiritual baby speak to you and tell you his mummy has blonde/black/red/brown hair, lives in a certain country and he is with her all the time? How can you be so sure of what you are claiming? I find it very difficult to believe that a foetus of a few weeks old can have any remote idea what his or her mum looks like, who with whom he/she belongs! This whole topic just opens old wounds, even though its been a couple of years, but come on! Why would they chose mediums and not show themselves to their own mothers if this was for real???? I see no reason why strangers should be used unless its once again demons speaking to mediums. Godly things remain just that...they don't show themselves, they are at peace and are not bothered with what happens on this corrupt earth! Therefore I do believe that God chose to take my babies because they were too special to be on this earth and are in a better safer happier place... They have no need to "contact" mediums or whatever you wish to be called... I truly disapprove of what you are doing. If it be truly good, then God would have ordained our little miscarried ones to be in contact with us.. you have no right to try and play spiritual interpreter, you are upsetting a lot of people, but then again thats what evil is all about...always trying to override the good, trying to convince the confused weak minded people! One day you will stand alone and face God... what will you then have to say when you are forbidden to enter the pearly gates?

Let it go, allow the little ones to rest in peace!!

[lara123]

i've already let it go.ive listened and subject over.
you despise me,i wont get to heaven and so on.Big claims there ah ? god tell you that did he? you making your own opinions up on god like you did on me.

YOU let this go too then,you ask me questions then say let it go!!!!!!!

Ive already said i wont discuss this topic anymore-so now you are being disrecpectful.

To the people ive offended,i am sorry,i meant you no pain.I am stopping now because it is painful to you.

I genuinely did not expect this back-lash,i thought and hoped we could discuss and debate and learn from both sides.I wanted to know more about you and why you are sceptics and talk about individual mediums,i wished we would of debated and discussed instead of shutting me down and insulting me.I had thought in the beginning this forum was up for that discussion on a healthy level.

If the approach to me had been kinder,i would have read for you,any of you.Then you had the right to deny me.But you have been brutal,unkind and made claims about me that are not true.You have lied too by telling me i was talking bullshit..you dont know that,you think that,you lot have done more name calling than me yet claim im sick! Its all a nasty set-up.
Where did all the good skeptics go:undecided:

My final word goes to farside..who got me over here by calling me a liar.

Earlier you deny you go to other forums and try to interfere.YOU LIAR .
you know what i mean .8) sneaky boy you are ah,i'll hold your place after all in that white van,looks like we're going to hell together !
can't wait ;D what a ride that will be..the pleasure will be all..yours.;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D; D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

[bobdezon]

Please leave, and crawl back under your rock. It will benefit mankind by your absence. I hope you receive the medical attention you obviously need.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

i've already let it go.ive listened and subject over.
you despise me,i wont get to heaven and so on.Big claims there ah ? god tell you that did he? you making your own opinions up on god like you did on me.

YOU let this go too then,you ask me questions then say let it go!!!!!!!

Ive already said i wont discuss this topic anymore-so now you are being disrecpectful.

To the people ive offended,i am sorry,i meant you no pain.I am stopping now because it is painful to you.

I genuinely did not expect this back-lash,i thought and hoped we could discuss and debate and learn from both sides.I wanted to know more about you and why you are sceptics and talk about individual mediums,i wished we would of debated and discussed instead of shutting me down and insulting me.I had thought in the beginning this forum was up for that discussion on a healthy level.

If the approach to me had been kinder,i would have read for you,any of you.Then you had the right to deny me.But you have been brutal,unkind and made claims about me that are not true.You have lied too by telling me i was talking bullshit..you dont know that,you think that,you lot have done more name calling than me yet claim im sick! Its all a nasty set-up.
Where did all the good skeptics go:undecided:

My final word goes to farside..who got me over here by calling me a liar.

Earlier you deny you go to other forums and try to interfere.YOU LIAR .
you know what i mean .8) sneaky boy you are ah,i'll hold your place after all in that white van,looks like we're going to hell together !
can't wait ;D what a ride that will be..the pleasure will be all..yours.;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D; D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

What are you talking about? Evidence, please.

I even remember when I first posted over at Psychic Barber, someone (probably you) sensed I was a woman.

50/50 chance and still get it wrong.

[chillzero]

i've already let it go.ive listened and subject over.
you despise me,i wont get to heaven and so on.Big claims there ah ? god tell you that did he? you making your own opinions up on god like you did on me.

YOU let this go too then,you ask me questions then say let it go!!!!!!!

Ive already said i wont discuss this topic anymore-so now you are being disrecpectful.

To the people ive offended,i am sorry,i meant you no pain.I am stopping now because it is painful to you.

I genuinely did not expect this back-lash,i thought and hoped we could discuss and debate and learn from both sides.I wanted to know more about you and why you are sceptics and talk about individual mediums,i wished we would of debated and discussed instead of shutting me down and insulting me.I had thought in the beginning this forum was up for that discussion on a healthy level.

If the approach to me had been kinder,i would have read for you,any of you.Then you had the right to deny me.But you have been brutal,unkind and made claims about me that are not true.You have lied too by telling me i was talking bullshit..you dont know that,you think that,you lot have done more name calling than me yet claim im sick! Its all a nasty set-up.
Where did all the good skeptics go:undecided:

My final word goes to farside..who got me over here by calling me a liar.

Earlier you deny you go to other forums and try to interfere.YOU LIAR .
you know what i mean .8) sneaky boy you are ah,i'll hold your place after all in that white van,looks like we're going to hell together !
can't wait ;D what a ride that will be..the pleasure will be all..yours.;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D; D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D


umm... hello? lara?

There are a few of us here who were asking you questions and trying to discuss this.

It is a true shame you decided to focus on the negative, and avoid answering the rest. My questions are still here, should you change your mind, and as you can see I have been patient and polite.

[tolman]

To the people ive offended,i am sorry,i meant you no pain.I am stopping now because it is painful to you.
No, you're not.
You're stopping because deep down even you know you don't have any adequate responses that would be credible to the non-deluded and non-desperate.


If the approach to me had been kinder,i would have read for you,any of you.
You could have read for someone even if someone else was being unkind, but like countless other 'psychics', you seem happy to avoid reading for anyone except people who really want to make what you say fit the facts.

[InForAPennyInForApound]

Originally Posted by lara123 http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25275#post25275)
To the people ive offended,i am sorry,i meant you no pain.I am stopping now because it is painful to you.

They are all the same, their pattern repeats itself once more. Brian Ladd also professed to stop his ongoing interference of little Madeleine McCann.These people do not know the meaning of stop! No matter how we address issues/questions/debates with these people, they always become the "victim" and are abused by our words. As far as what I have written on here regarding Lara123, I only wanted my debate, well, debated! She was unable to answer anything I wrote but to blow me off by saying she did let it go, and I should let it go. I have let it go, just merely stated my opinions, surely thats what our forum is all about?

[Tin Lizzie]

Farside, mediums can receive receive messages with accuracy such as that described earlier by donnygirl. It is not at all possible to guess, through cold reading, the street name and house number of a person's childhood home, nor is it possible to estimate the number and type of objects left in a coffin. Sorry but your obsession with cold reading is obsolete. So is your un-skeptical approach of dumping on things you can't / don't want to understand.

There are others here who seem to insist that what lara does is evil and that she is manipulating the emotions of vulnerable people. Open your eyes and read her posts, you ignorant lot. People come to her, not the other way round, and believe it or not she is sensitive in how she handles things. It seems that you don't want to accept the happiness she has brought to people, including women who have lost babies. Is this your egos coming into action, denying the fact that what you say is wrong?

ChillZero, I can't speak for lara but I know she would be more than happy to discuss things with you. Try PM'ing her, She is actually very friendly and approachable.

[tolman]

It is not at all possible to guess, through cold reading, the street name and house number of a person's childhood home, nor is it possible to estimate the number and type of objects left in a coffin.

If there really are people who can reliably do things like that (rather than just claims that people have done things like that in unclear circumstances), why is it that the high-profile psychics typically seem to be obvious frauds?
What other business has the cheap frauds getting all the publicity and money, with genuine people not only avoiding fame and fortune but also seemingly not being much bothered by the presence of cheats making the whole psychic deal look like nothing more than a scam preying on the vulnerable or credulous?

[Admin]

It is not at all possible to guess, through cold reading, the street name and house number of a person's childhood home, nor is it possible to estimate the number and type of objects left in a coffin.

That is exactly the sort of information that can be obtained via cold reading (!)

Note: Cold Reading has nothing to do with guessing - you should have bought that book I recommended Tim. ;)

Cold Reading, in a nutshell, is the method of interaction with a client whereby the 'psychic' acquires the information from the client but gives the impression that it was they who supplied it.

[donnygirl]

i undeestand about cold readings but my sister in law did not have the information to begin with so how could they cold read it out of her ....she came to me and told me

[lara123]

john-im sure tim knows what cold reading is and meant that no info was given by the sitter.

[lara123]

as for you bobdemon...if you would kindly move your nasty butt out the way and make way for my more decent one,thanks!

[bindeweede]

john-im sure tim knows what cold reading is and meant that no info was given by the sitter.

lara

im sure you knows what cold reading is to and you no expactly wot you ar doing.

[Admin]

i undeestand about cold readings but my sister in law did not have the information to begin with so how could they cold read it out of her ....she came to me and told me

Well I don't know that anything you say is accurate or true.

Flying carpets aren't believed to be real so how come my brother-in-law has one?

[lara123]

bindleweed-come on now,ive never cold-read ever,i ask people not to say a word.Stop assuming the worse of me!

[bindeweede]

bindleweed-come on now,ive never cold-read ever,i ask people not to say a word.Stop assuming the worse of me!

OK, I'm wrong. Can you bring my father "through"?

Oh, and it ain't "bindleweed"

[donnygirl]

hi john thats true you don't know if what i say is true only my family and i do ,thats all that matters to me.....

it will always be that it can't be proven unless it happens to you or yours...

it's one of those things ....

hope your brother-in-law has fun on his carpet :smiley:

[lara123]

i would'nt know if your father would come through unless i sit quiet and try to see,and your unkindly remarks stating i cold-read are not welcome.you state again your user-name is not bindleweed ,it is on here,and if i read via the internet i would concentrate on a user-name such as bindleweed,tolman,farside etc,hope that clears it up.

[bobdezon]

as for you bobdemon...if you would kindly move your nasty butt out the way and make way for my more decent one,thanks!


If my butt is nasty because I think you are a ghoul who preys on peoples grief and insecurity, then I hope my butt becomes the nastiest piece of ass youll ever meet.

You are a disgrace to humanity. I suggest if you want to convince some of the people here (you know, the onces with the non nasty butts) that you have some type of ability of gift, that you stop glossing over the questions people are asking you and answer them directly.

Names, dates, times, places, information they know, that you do not. Do that and prove your ability instead of playing the victim role. It is apparant you are used to associating with believers who accept your claims at face value. Here you will learn they do not, prepare yourself or remove yourself.

[bindeweede]

i would'nt know if your father would come through unless i sit quiet and try to see,and your unkindly remarks stating i cold-read are not welcome.you state again your user-name is not bindleweed ,it is on here,and if i read via the internet i would concentrate on a user-name such as bindleweed,tolman,farside etc,hope that clears it up.

Lara123

I absolutely promise you, my username is not bindleweed. It is BINDEWEEDE. I think you need to see an optician.

[Fiona]

I have some more questions since you are here Lara.

You have said you are a medium and a psychic and that you did not act on this knowledge lightly. I believe you said you waited 5 years before you gave a reading? Since you have also said that you do not approach people may I ask how they know about you?

You have said that you are sensitive to the potential for harm which is inherent in what you do, and again that you do not approach anybody with your "gift" but only read for people who ask you. And you have said you do not mean to cause any pain. It does not take a psychic to realise that this is a very sensitive subject, and I am at a loss as to what you are doing here. You have said variously that you had a right to defend yourself - true. You also said you hoped for a polite exchange of views. That was a little optimistic perhaps. You cannot be unaware that this is an issue which raises very, very strong feelings and that you would be likely to meet with people who have their own personal experience to show you are wrong (whether you are or not): and who take as much comfort from their perpective as you say you provide for those who share your view about this. I cannot help but wonder why your need to fight this battle overrides your usual care, in this instance? Are you sure you are careful enough? That is not a particularly sceptical question it is just one of common courtesy - and I know you value that highly

Leaving that aside I have asked you specific questions about how you know that the entities you claim to connect with are what they say they are. You have given me no answer at all and I would very much like to hear about that: and about how these entities know the things you say they do know.

[lara123]

fiona--but its dredging the miscarriage thing up again..what am i to do?

[lara123]

i will answer all other questions,tomorrow,im off to bed soon.

[bindeweede]

i will answer all other questions,tomorrow,im off to bed soon.

BINDEWEEDE!!!

[Fiona]

fiona--but its dredging the miscarriage thing up again..what am i to do?

Well I do not see that is necessary. Unless that is the only kind of communication you get all of these questions can be addressed for other "spirits", and rather more easily, I imagine. It is true that some of my earlier enquiries were specific because what you claim seems utterly impossible to me: but if you can deal with the other type of spirit effectively that will be enough for now :smiley:

[chillzero]

lara

im sure you knows what cold reading is to and you no expactly wot you ar doing.

This may not be true, and is partly what I am trying to find out. I have my own personal experiences in this area to draw on, and am interested in what lara has to say.

Unfortunately, lara has decided AGAIN to ignore my polite and unoffensive questions in order to argue instead. Tim - I don't want to PM her - I prefer continuing this conversation exactly where it started.

I know people feel upset and offended by claims such as these, but I would ask that the angrier responses be witheld for a little while. We should really welcome the opportunity to examine the beliefs and claims of a self-claimed psychic. That will be a lot more productive for a skeptical site than emotionally charged jibes. We should look at the claims and discuss any issues with those rather than responding to the individual. That way, we can maybe clarify matters for any other people reading this information, and not have people turned away thinking skeptics are all horrible, nasty, cynical people as we are so often portrayed in certain circles.

lara - still hoping you will answer my questions.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Farside, mediums can receive receive messages with accuracy such as that described earlier by donnygirl. It is not at all possible to guess, through cold reading, the street name and house number of a person's childhood home, nor is it possible to estimate the number and type of objects left in a coffin. Sorry but your obsession with cold reading is obsolete. So is your un-skeptical approach of dumping on things you can't / don't want to understand.

I am aware of the techniques which can be used (unknowingly even) to obtain house numbers.

These feats of great acccuracy, why is there no documented evidence anywhere? Seeing this is the video age, why no clips on youtube? Why do these abilities always disappear under controlled circumstances?

Anecdotal evidence is useless. Precisely because cold reading techinques are most powerful in uncontrolled scenarios.



There are others here who seem to insist that what lara does is evil and that she is manipulating the emotions of vulnerable people. Open your eyes and read her posts, you ignorant lot. People come to her, not the other way round, and believe it or not she is sensitive in how she handles things. It seems that you don't want to accept the happiness she has brought to people, including women who have lost babies. Is this your egos coming into action, denying the fact that what you say is wrong?


She can attempt to prove this ability, that's all people are asking.

[tolman]

If someone could extract information from a willing subject without any evident means of communication, it'd be a very interesting skill, but one which, whether done by truly psychic means or stage tricks, still seems of limited value ("I went to this person, and they told me all kinds of things I already knew! Isn't that amazingly useful?")

If someone was capable of reliably extracting information from someone who already knew it without their assistance, I imagine they'd be in demand by all kinds of private and state enterprises.

If someone could reliably extract information from someone who had never known it in the first place, they'd be in extraordinary demand.

Either people with the highest level of skills exist and are being used in extreme secrecy, they exist but have all managed to avoid being used despite the potential rewards, or they don't exist.

[ZERO]

I have lost children myself
Grief and non acceptance may offer a rational explanation for these "abilities".


BINDEWEEDE!!!

Don't worry windlebleed, I think she will eventually notice the added L and missing E.


This may not be true, and is partly what I am trying to find out. I have my own personal experiences in this area to draw on, and am interested in what lara has to say.

Unfortunately, lara has decided AGAIN to ignore my polite and unoffensive questions in order to argue instead. Tim - I don't want to PM her - I prefer continuing this conversation exactly where it started.

I know people feel upset and offended by claims such as these, but I would ask that the angrier responses be witheld for a little while. We should really welcome the opportunity to examine the beliefs and claims of a self-claimed psychic. That will be a lot more productive for a skeptical site than emotionally charged jibes. We should look at the claims and discuss any issues with those rather than responding to the individual. That way, we can maybe clarify matters for any other people reading this information, and not have people turned away thinking skeptics are all horrible, nasty, cynical people as we are so often portrayed in certain circles.

lara - still hoping you will answer my questions.

Very good post.

Lara,
I also ask that you ignore posts that upset you and answer the questions that have been put to you in a reasonable way. I too am interested in your answers.

[bindeweede]

Zero,



"windlebleed"...............? I like it!

[lara123]

fiona,i said yesterday i will answering the questions you asked today,and i will be later on.

[lara123]

lara

im sure you knows what cold reading is to and you no expactly wot you ar doing.

I'll drop you off at english classes whilst i attend the opticians then.

[tolman]

john-im sure tim knows what cold reading is and meant that no info was given by the sitter.
im sure you knows what cold reading is to and you no expactly wot you ar doing.
I'll drop you off at english classes whilst i attend the opticians then.

lara,
The whooshing sound you should have heard was a chunk of humour flying over your head.

[lara123]

Fiona,[putting miscarriage questions aside]here are my answers to some of your questions,if ive missed anything i apologise and will skim back later and see other questions you have asked,time is limited until late tonight.

People come to me from word of mouth-its worth noting here that at present due to personal circumstances i don't do many readings at all now.That word of mouth came about due to those five years of practicing on friends,and then those friends said their friend would like one etc.I never had to offer my services,i was being bombarded for readings.I always clearly stated to all these people how my experiences began,that i was practicing,how it worked for me exactly,i really did try my best to explain properly.I made no charge in these five years,i know that does not necessarily make me a medium either by not charging,so please no arguments on that..i was intrigued by what was happening to me,i wanted to find out more so thats why i agreed to the requests.

Regarding am i careful enough,i really do make that my priority but i welcome views from you,and i will sincerly listen if i need to do certain things differently.

I may get mediumship,or sometimes it is purely an clairvoyant reading,or a combination of both and we are dealing with two things here.So to save confusion we should discuss only the one first.

[Fiona]

ok. So you did in fact seek people out - at first friends and later other people. You presented yourself as a person with special powers and you gradually identified those powers as psychic and as mediumship. I do not think I can accept your statement that you did not approach people in that case- you did, at least until you built a client base.

I do not mean to be rude Lara, but I cannot see any different process would have been adopted by someone learning the "trade" of cold reading. It takes skill and practice and practicing on those disposed to be kind seems sensible to me. I do not mean to imply you did this cynically - I have no idea. I just cannot see you would have done anything different if you were a cynic

I infer that after those 5 years you did charge? Well I wonder why? I have seen many psychics who say that this would debase what they do. Clearly you take a different view but can you not see that taking money for this is likely to lead to at least an element of dishonesty because you have already said the "gift" is not reliable. When someone pays you and nothing is coming through can you honestly say there is no temptation to embroider it a bit? Even when that person before you is desperately in need of comfort which you believe you can give? You have said you care: you have said these people are in distress. Lead me not into temptation ......

And I was focussing on mediumship - at least I think I was. I am not so knowledgeable as many here so I might have the terminology wrong. Again I ask - if I accept for the sake of the discussion that you receive something from an entity independent of yourself how do you know that entity is what you say it is? how can you be sure it is not malicious? Again, I do not believe any of this, but you do. What proof or evidence have you that your connection is not intrinsically damaging in your own terms not in mine?

[lara123]

I'll tell you one final time.I did not seek people out in the first five years.Yes,i told my friends what was happening to me,i did not offer them a reading,they asked.If you cannot understand this simple thing there is no point taking this any further with you.

[LeQue]

I did not seek people out in the first five years.Yes,i told my friends what was happening to me,i did not offer them a reading,they asked..

Any good friend would take an interest in ones newfound powers. You spread the word of your new interest and that is not doing nothing.

[tolman]

Any good friend would take an interest in ones newfound powers. You spread the word of your new interest and that is not doing nothing.
Precisely.
If I told friends I had developed the power of flight, even if I didn't offer to demonstrate, it's rather likely that I'd be asked to demonstrate.
It would be distinctly disingenuous of me to claim I'd never wanted to draw attention to my powers if my claimed powers were of such a nature that they would almost invariably arouse curiosity once mentioned.

[bobdezon]

Any good friend would take an interest in ones newfound powers. You spread the word of your new interest and that is not doing nothing.


I think you are missing the point here.

[LeQue]

I think you are missing the point here.

Care to explain?

[Fiona]

I'll tell you one final time.I did not seek people out in the first five years.Yes,i told my friends what was happening to me,i did not offer them a reading,they asked.If you cannot understand this simple thing there is no point taking this any further with you.

I am sorry if you are not happy with my conclusion Lara. It is based on what you said. It is not that I do not understand what you said: I just disagree with it. Both Tolman and LeQue seem to as well, so it is not some unique interpretation of my own. So the repeat of the assertion that you did not do this does not really get us much further forward. Can you explain why Tolman and LeQue and I are not correct in how we view this?

I would also like it if you answered some of my other questions and also those of chillzero. They are legitimate questions and I am not very happy with how you seem to address things which you take offense at, and ignore everything else. It does rather look like playing the victim, and that is not helping your case.

[bobdezon]

Care to explain?


Should you have included a question mark on the end of your statement? or are you agreeing with her?

You can see the confusion. O0

[LeQue]

Should you have included a question mark on the end of your statement? or are you agreeing with her?

You can see the confusion. O0

The question mark is exactly where it belongs.

Sorry to have confused you but my post was meant as tolman took it, and no I don't agree with lara, if that is whom you are referring to.

[bobdezon]

The question mark is exactly where it belongs.

Sorry to have confused you but my post was meant as tolman took it, and no I don't agree with lara, if that is whom you are referring to.



Any good friend would take an interest in ones newfound powers. You spread the word of your new interest and that is not doing nothing.

It would make more sense posed as a question then, and to make sense this would require the question mark you omitted.

[LeQue]

It would make more sense posed as a question then, and to make sense this would require the question mark you omitted.

Incorrect. Remember now that a double negative is a positive. So "not nothing" is in fact "something" O0

[bobdezon]

an answer worthy of a politician ;D

[LeQue]

Hmm... or one of a primary school English teacher ::)

[bobdezon]

They teach double negative in primary school? ???

[Matt]

They teach double negative in primary school? ???

Primary school teacher says to her class. "Two negatives make a positive but two positives also make a positive."

Little Johnny yells out: "yeah right!"

[bobdezon]

lol O0

[lara123]

chilzero--this is the post im talking about where you ask how do you tell the difference between a real and fake medium.If you wish for more detail i will be happy to do so.It is difficult to ignore the nasty posts and you are right,my concentration should be on the people like you who are polite so i will try harder and ignore those posts.


Fiona-a lot of the questions you asked were embroiled in the miscarriage posts and you ask me to answer them now with regards to spirit communication generally.To avoid confusion,can you ask the specific questions now in their own right-many thanks.



because you can only go on what they tell you..and then you have to be careful because there are clever cold-readers and one could presume they are getting a great reading but it is untrue.You see im with you a lot on what you have to tell people,people need to wise up on psychics/mediums.If you go for a reading say nothing,practice your body-language before you go as not to give them clues.Be careful and be wise..and do not pay a penny if you do not receive a specific bit of information.

I have said before on here how i receive information,and yes,at times i may not hit the bullseye but get a' feeling around' the area,but is still quite close most of the times.

Sometimes i get a weak link,and ive yet to know why..ive never claimed to have all of the answers and im still learning,i'll never know all the whys/hows of it.

And ive said before,i dont call them up!! i dont know how to,i sense them around me and i may receive a message.

I do believe..i know..there are fakes out there..ive met some and had readings myself.There should be a certification that qualifies people to be so..thats a tricky bit how much info qualifies , but it could be done,and its a start.

The simple truth is..a medium will give out correct information,almost all of the time.There is room for error,misinterpretation on the mediums part,but over-all,the readings will be accurate and detailed, and the sitter give nothing away.

[chillzero]

chilzero--this is the post im talking about where you ask how do you tell the difference between a real and fake medium.If you wish for more detail i will be happy to do so.


Ah, I see.

I had actually read that post, but it doesn't actually give any real advice on how to tell the difference, which is why I asked again. I'd love it if you could give more information, thanks.

[lara123]

oh i see,you had found it,thats ok ,so i'll do my best to say more.

I said you can only go on what the psychic/medium has to say.

Of course,the difficultly here means some people WILL accept and believe vague information to be for them because many of us have similar things that could fit,eg,stresses,financial,family etc.Much of the information could be very vague and apply to almost all who hears it.


Another problem lies in how a medium receives communication,i may sense someone having financial difficulties but not sense the whys and hows of it.So indeed,this could be seen as guesswork.But if this was true

My over-all answer is therefore,the reading should contain specific bits of information,that wouldnt apply to almost everybody that read it.Specific bits of information could be anything,but certainly more than 'i see you've had financial difficulty lately' etc and nothing more.This is fine to add from a real psychic if theres lots more other information which does contain more specifics.

One example is..i gave a reading to a single lady two years ago...i sensed within a year she would meet a man ,live with him within that year also,he would have a large dog,he would have a daughter,and all her financial debt[thousands] would be wiped out with the year,and her brother would approach her soon with a huge life-changing gift[i didnt know what the gift was tho]

I consider this to be specific..all of it came true within 8 months,every
single bit,alongside lots more info.

I have to go now but will be on later,thankyou.

[Fiona]

Lara: I have made it clear that I do not accept your claims, but I do not want you to think I am baiting you. Without any wish to insult you or upset you, I would like to know:

1. If it is true that you connect with an entity independent of yourself, how do you know what it is? How can you be sure it is the spirit of some sitter's dear departed and not, for example, a demon? Once we admit of incorporeal entities I can see no reason at all to exclude any of them. I think the church has a very long standing objection to contact with spirits for this very reason. What makes you sure their perspective is wrong and there is nothing to fear?

2. Since you claim that what you do gives great comfort, and since you have said the "gift" is unreliable, how do you deal with the situation where nothing at all "connects" with you and the person before you is in distress? How do you resist the temptation to embroider in face of that? Can you honestly say you never mistake a strong wish to help with a real communication; never convince yourself because of the desperation before you; and how often does it happen that you get nothing, compared to those times you do get a "message"?

3. How do you distinguish a message from your own thoughts? You have said that a "silent message" is what you get and that the "spirit throws the message in your mind". I have all sorts of random thoughts from time to time. I cannot imagine how you can tell a thought you have generated from one which has been "thrown" In what way are they different?

4. In your latest example you seem to be doing something very different because you claim to have foretold the future. You said earlier we should be careful to distinguish clairvoyance and mediumship. You suggested we should stick to one as they are different. Yet you use this, which I take to be clairvoyance, in support of mediumship. At least that is how I interpret what you have done. You have as yet given no instance of a spirit communication which contains the kind of specificity which you agree would be necessary to support your claims. May we have one of those now? One you can verify? For example by doing as Bindeweede suggests and reading him?

5. Since you did raise the instance of foretelling the future can you say whether you believe that the future is fixed? Can we change it with foreknowledge or not? And given you can do this do you find it uncomfortable to know your own future in this way? Or are the benefits of never having your picnic spoiled by rain sufficient compensation for knowing the hour and manner of your death ?

[bindeweede]

i would'nt know if your father would come through unless i sit quiet and try to see,and your unkindly remarks stating i cold-read are not welcome.you state again your user-name is not bindleweed ,it is on here,and if i read via the internet i would concentrate on a user-name such as bindleweed,tolman,farside etc,hope that clears it up.

But lyra, you said earlier.....

and most are aware that a medium can bring anybody through.

windlebleede.

[lara123]

Tfiona-here's my reply to questions 1 and 2 ,i will answer the rest tomorrow..

I know i have a spirit present because i sense it,suddenly my hair will become itchy and feels like ants are crawling all over ,around the same time the atmosphere will feel 'heavier'to me,all this usually happens within a second or two.I sense and know a spirit person is around because of these senses and i 'feel' them there,strongly.I also sense spirit animals quite often and know an animals there and not a person.

Sometimes,i receive pictures of the spirit or animal in my mind so that certainly helps,but these pictures are often so quick,i may only get one or two things on the description.

So i just know instantly when a spirit is around,i 'feel' them.

I have never worried it may be a demon,every single time i have sensed a person the feelings of love that come with them is over whelming,in six years ive never felt anything other than love coming through.If i ever experience anything other than this,it would be all over for me,i would be terrified.In the beginning for me,there were times i were nervous,i could sense spirit in the night-time and sense them moving around but i always remembered nothing horrible had happened so i continued to explore.

Regarding the church,i used to attend for many years myself when younger and long before i received contact from spirit,their view did'nt sit well with me.They wanted to put the fear of god into people and were often successful,with talk of the devil and hell.I have no reason to believe in either.Jehova witnesses believe in the afterlife also,but only a certain amount of people will enter and then jesus has to allow this.I do not believe this,i believe we all go,whether we are saint or sinner.

2. I have never yet not made a connection of some sort,it may be psychic,medium or both.If someone is hoping for mediumship,there is never an gaurantee and i make this clear before i read.There is no temptation for me to resist,temptation is not there if no mediumship occurs,i just tell them i wasn't able to receive any.It will never cross my mind to lie to them.A believer once asked me to lie to her friend and say her loved one did come through even if they dont,and i told her no,i will not do that.Her friends loved one did not come through and i have no desire to say otherwise,never!!!

This unreliablity..my readings mostly contain some specific detail,occasionally there will be none which could be accepted by almost anyone...in these instances i accept it is not good enough and would never charge,even when they are happy.I know things can affect readings..like my stresses,nerves..and sometimes the link feels weak..i have no idea why but i can feel some spirits stronger than others even when i feel fine.

[lara123]

3. How do you distinguish a message from your own thoughts? You have said that a "silent message" is what you get and that the "spirit throws the message in your mind". I have all sorts of random thoughts from time to time. I cannot imagine how you can tell a thought you have generated from one which has been "thrown" In what way are they different?


This is a good question and one which developing psychics/mediums tell me they struggle with.The message is silent ,but i still know its there,and experience and practice has told me it is not my own thoughts.I feel the energy of the spirit person communicating with me.If i receive info via psychic means but not mediumship,i cannot sense a spirit but i still feel this psychic energy--far different to me if i was thinking about other things.

What helped me was the five years of practice decluttering my mind before i gave readings,for a while i struggled with it although mostly it came pretty natural.Before i give a reading,i prepare myself for a few seconds or minutes,its like standing on a diving board ,waiting to dive ,the concentration and focus must be absolute.

Now,i have said before there is room for error,sometimes i may not get the gist of the message and be too difficult to deliver,its like my brain cannot interpret it,also the feelings i receive have to be interpreted through me,and sometimes this is a struggle so i just explain to them the feelings i feel,i would say the more unfamiliar the message/feeling is,the more difficult it is to explain because my mind and body is unknown to it.

I am trying to interpret spirit thoughts via my own senses.It is not a perfect process.But most of time,significantly above statictiscally average i deliver accurate information.

[lara123]

4. In your latest example you seem to be doing something very different because you claim to have foretold the future. You said earlier we should be careful to distinguish clairvoyance and mediumship. You suggested we should stick to one as they are different. Yet you use this, which I take to be clairvoyance, in support of mediumship. At least that is how I interpret what you have done. You have as yet given no instance of a spirit communication which contains the kind of specificity which you agree would be necessary to support your claims. May we have one of those now? One you can verify? For example by doing as Bindeweede suggests and reading him?

5. Since you did raise the instance of foretelling the future can you say whether you believe that the future is fixed? Can we change it with foreknowledge or not? And given you can do this do you find it uncomfortable to know your own future in this way? Or are the benefits of never having your picnic spoiled by rain sufficient compensation for knowing the hour and manner of your death ?
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/report.php?p=26062) http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=26062) http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=26062)
FionaView Public Profile (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/member.php?u=607)Send a private message to Fiona (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/private.php?do=newpm&u=607)Find More Posts by Fiona (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/search.php?do=finduser&u=607)Add Fiona to Your Buddy List (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=607)when i said we should stick to one,i meant one question at a time about mediumship or clairvoyance,mixing the two in one question ive found can cause confusion.No,i will not read for bindeweede,i will read for no-one who has been impolite to me.I have already agreed to read for someone here a while ago,whether i agree to post it up,i dont know yet.They never insulted me and was polite and asked with decency.With regards to future predictions,i dont know if the future is fixed despite me getting things correct this way.Sometimes i get a feeling of a 'probability' rate and maybe things could be changed what i predict,so i go for..sometimes i sense an absolute and sometimes a probabily rate.

[lara123]

sorry fiona--that all come out a bit strange...:cheesy:

[Fiona]

Much of what I want to say is being addressed in the other thread so it is a little difficult to have it spread out like this. I would reiterate Mischief Monkey's fundamental question about the nature of "proof" because as I said in that thread this is the essence of the sceptical position. Private proof just is not proof and this is irreconcileable.


However for what it is worth, you have not answered my first question, I think. I did not ask you how you can tell a spirit is there. I asked you how you know what it is. In response you said


I know i have a spirit present because i sense it,suddenly my hair will become itchy and feels like ants are crawling all over ,around the same time the atmosphere will feel 'heavier'to me,all this usually happens within a second or two.I sense and know a spirit person is around because of these senses and i 'feel' them there

This is not evidence of anything in particular Lara. At one time I was subject to itching which came and went. It was quite embarrassing. I went to my GP and the problem was hormonal. I got treatment and it went away. It does not address my question at all


I also sense spirit animals quite often and know an animals there and not a person.What is the difference? Again it does not seem to address the question: nor does this


Sometimes,i receive pictures of the spirit or animal in my mind so that certainly helps,but these pictures are often so quick,i may only get one or two things on the description.How does it help? How can you know what these visions or pictures are?


So i just know instantly when a spirit is around,i 'feel' them.
i can sometimes see the spirit.In varying forms.Why did you not mention the latter in your reply to me? It is a lot simpler and seems a strange omission . But in any case it does not say anything as to how you know what this is

You go on to say:


I have never worried it may be a demonWhy not?


every single time i have sensed a person the feelings of love that come with them is over whelming,in six years ive never felt anything other than love coming through.If i ever experience anything other than this,it would be all over for me,i would be terrified.In the beginning for me,there were times i were nervous,i could sense spirit in the night-time and sense them moving around but i always remembered nothing horrible had happened so i continued to explore.This is hardly a safe assumption if you are dealing with the Father of Lies, and as I said, if we admit one disembodied entity I can see no reason at all to leave any out. A feeling of love is what, exactly? I am no psychologist nor yet a physiologist but in the real world "feeings of love" do not come from other people.Feelings of desire and of gratitude and even of bliss are generated within us -so I honestly do not know what you are talking about if you place this outside yourself. Can you explain and then show how this says anything at all about the nature of the entity ?


Regarding the church,i used to attend for many years myself when younger and long before i received contact from spirit,their view did'nt sit well with me.They wanted to put the fear of god into people and were often successful,with talk of the devil and hell.I have no reason to believe in either.Jehova witnesses believe in the afterlife also,but only a certain amount of people will enter and then jesus has to allow this.I do not believe this,i believe we all go,whether we are saint or sinner.I have absolutely no idea why you think this is relevant. Perhaps you wish to deny the religious any expertise in the field? With all due respect they have been at it a lot longer than you

In answer to my second question you said:


2. I have never yet not made a connection of some sort,it may be psychic,medium or both.If someone is hoping for mediumship,there is never an gaurantee and i make this clear before i read.There is no temptation for me to resist,temptation is not there if no mediumship occurs,i just tell them i wasn't able to receive any.It will never cross my mind to lie to them.A believer once asked me to lie to her friend and say her loved one did come through even if they dont,and i told her no,i will not do that.Her friends loved one did not come through and i have no desire to say otherwise,never!!!Why then do we hear that the "gift" is unreliable? And why does someone's hostility make any difference at all. It is curious that you refuse to read for someone on the grounds they are hostile. Since you cannot fail this would surely be the most satisfying demonstration of all. So it seems to me anyway. You go on to say


This unreliablity..my readings mostly contain some specific detail,occasionally there will be none which could be accepted by almost anyone...in these instances i accept it is not good enough and would never charge,even when they are happy.From the sceptic point of view you have just contradicted the previous paragraph. No specific information is indistinguishable from no connection and the fact that you do not charge in those circumstances is laudable but not helpful to your claim. How often does this happen, as a matter of interest?


I know things can affect readings..like my stresses,nerves..and sometimes the link feels weak..i have no idea why but i can feel some spirits stronger than others even when i feel fine.I am sorry if I misunderstand but this again seems to conflate mediumship with your claimed psychic ability, as described in the other thread.

Like you I need to address the other responses separately, and I hope to come back to them.

[ZERO]

1. If it is true that you connect with an entity independent of yourself, how do you know what it is? How can you be sure it is the spirit of some sitter's dear departed and not, for example, a demon? Once we admit of incorporeal entities I can see no reason at all to exclude any of them. I think the church has a very long standing objection to contact with spirits for this very reason. What makes you sure their perspective is wrong and there is nothing to fear?

Lara,
The above quote of Fiona's poses a very interesting question.
You believe in a spirit world. Human beliefs, from all over the globe, regarding the spirit world populate it with both good and bad entities.
Wouldn't an evil spirit pose as good?
How do you know what you are in contact with?

[tolman]

Lara,
The above quote of Fiona's poses a very interesting question.
You believe in a spirit world. Human beliefs, from all over the globe, regarding the spirit world populate it with both good and bad entities.
Wouldn't an evil spirit pose as good?
Religions worldwide not only propose bad entities, but specifically assign to many of them the property of deceptiveness and warn people about such beings?

When looking at apparently incompatible religions, it's by no means uncommon to find people asserting that other believers are being deceived by evil supernatural forces, while the believer 'just knows' that their own beliefs are correct.
This doesn't necessarily say a huge amount about the accuracy of any individual religious belief, but it says a great deal about human rationalisation - that one person can assert their personal conviction as proof that that are right and that someone else with an perfectly equal personal conviction is wrong or mad, yet they can take real offence if someone else dismisses their beliefs with the casualness that they would dismiss anyone else's (assuming they didn't duck the question of anyone else's beliefs).

[lara123]

Originally Posted by lara123 http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=26152#post26152)
I know i have a spirit present because i sense it,suddenly my hair will become itchy and feels like ants are crawling all over ,around the same time the atmosphere will feel 'heavier'to me,all this usually happens within a second or two.I sense and know a spirit person is around because of these senses and i 'feel' them there
This is not evidence of anything in particular Lara. At one time I was subject to itching which came and went. It was quite embarrassing. I went to my GP and the problem was hormonal. I got treatment and it went away. It does not address my question at all
Originally Posted by lara123 http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=26152#post26152)
I know i have a spirit present because i sense it,suddenly my hair will become itchy and feels like ants are crawling all over ,around the same time the atmosphere will feel 'heavier'to me,all this usually happens within a second or two.I sense and know a spirit person is around because of these senses and i 'feel' them there

This is not evidence of anything in particular Lara. At one time I was subject to itching which came and went. It was quite embarrassing. I went to my GP and the problem was hormonal. I got treatment and it went away. It does not address my question at all

Yes it does address your question,it was not the answer you wanted but it is my answer to your question.It is my evidence how i KNOW a spirit is present.If i itch otherwise,i do not feel the presence of a spirit person around,no change in atmosphere,i do not feel that KNOWING that i know so well when a spirit is present.It is not evidence for you,of course not,how can it be?You cant sense spirit,i can,it is my evidence i am telling you about.I cant prove it to you this happens to me when i know they are around ,until something is invented to show this.


Quote:
I also sense spirit animals quite often and know an animals there and not a person.
What is the difference? Again it does not seem to address the question: nor does this

Again,clairsentience.I can differentiate beween animal and person because the energies i feel are different...its like BOOM,i know it without thinking.my mind knows the difference,it just does,i dont need time to work out if its an animal or person.I instantly know.Many 'non psychic' people have read energy before,for instance they walk into a friends house where her and her partner have just rowed but the pair can act as if nothing is wrong,yet some people 'feel' the atmosphere.Exactly the same thing i can do...readind energy.

i can sometimes see the spirit.In varying forms.
Why did you not mention the latter in your reply to me? It is a lot simpler and seems a strange omission . But in any case it does not say anything as to how you know what this is

Its in this reply.I think ive mentioned it already i sometimes see spirit.Maybe thats my problem -i dont see what i do as any big deal.

You go on to say:


Quote:
I have never worried it may be a demon
Why not?

Because i cant think for the life of me why i should! If i ever sense a demon-im out of it.Ive never sensed that so im not prepared to worry what has,nt happened.

[Fiona]

Sorry Lara, but you do not answer the question and asserting that you do does not change that.

[MischiefMonkey]

Lara, if I suffered from intermittent itching, physically felt sudden pressure changes, got random thoughts and hallucinated, I'd see a GP. I'm not saying this to be funny or unkind. I think I would feel guilty if I didn't say it. Just in case.

Presuming you are being totally honest, frequent hallucinations really should be reported to a doctor. Your other symptoms could also indicate physical illness.

[lara123]

Righty-my computers playings up-will have to reply to rest the long way.

Who is the father of lies you speak of ?

If you see no reason to leave them all out[demons]that is your choice.

I see no reason to leave them in.Ive never seen one,never sensed one,never heard one,thats good enough for me.

I certainly do feel spirit peoples love,every single time as ive said .If i can sense them,receive messages,feeling their love is just another entwined part of all i sense.

These feelings of love i sense from spirit are only there for the sitter.It shows me they are made of love.I am not misjudging this feeling of love-they send out messages of love ,they omit love when they arrive ,its love that wants them to connect to the sitter.I have never received anything hateful from spirit,after hundreds of contacts.It shows me they come with love,i feel this love to the very core of them,pure love.


You brought up the church and asked me questions about it then question my relevence to it.

What have the church been up to a lot longer than me?
Understanding god? They know no more than you or i do or my little children do.If you believe god exists,please tell me about him,and how you sense him to know that truth.

you hear the gift can be unreliable because psychics are working with energy not completely understood,and this energy has to work through the human senses and some may get 'lost' through misunderstanding,a psychic may misread this energy...there would be some psychics who can receive spirit energy ..know they receive this spirit energy and even know spirit is trying to communicate through them...but some of their human senses may not be 'alert',evolved enough to interpret well.

So you see,some psychics who swear they believe they are psychic,can in fact,receive spirit energy somewhat ,and would be psychic indeed...but interpretating the communication correctly is a different matter altogether that many would not be good at.They may receive the energy weak,get a sort of feeling somewhere but not get strong deep psychic/mediumship connections that produces good factual information.

Ive said myself,i too may receive a weak link and its a struggle.I dont know all the reasons why,but do know nerves,stress,tiredness can affect results..other psychics have said its to do with the spirit energy also...i dont know..

I don't see why you are curious why i wouldnt read for someone who is hostile.Ive never said id never read for a skeptic.

If people had called you abusive names would you then go and use your time and do their cleaning[or anything] for them for two hours.

Thats how long it would take me to try my best and get it written out.
You say..'since you cannot fail this would surely be the most satisfactory demonstation of all'

I never said i would'nt fail.I may.I may get a weak connection,but certainly i would get something yes,i always have.

I feel the main difficultly reading for a skeptic would be putting myself in the correct frame of mind for a reading.I have something to do with making a connection,if one feels uneasy it is far more difficult to concentrate,same as anything else.
But if i stick around and im allowed to in a comfortable [fairly then!] way there would be no reason why i would'nt.

How often does it happen that the information is vague ?

It does not mean i am receiving no contact,the contact may be so weak, and the information you receive may be exactly what you get,but just be vague.Usually i get more than 'vague'.If every single readng produced nothing more than 'vague' i would deem myself not good enough to do it.One should always be judged by more than one reading alone.How many?you tell me!maybe 2-3 i'd say would give a good enough example to ones talents.

I dont have the exact information 'how often' my messages are vague.I havent kept all of my readings,hardly any, but i do have about 10.Do you want me to pinpoint the vagueness of them?I cant post those up so is there any point in giving you this info?People have differing opinions on vagueness ah-

[lara123]

mischief monkey--your not saying it to be unkind or funny?

really?

so you might actually care if im insane?

how utterly sweet of you..you disbelieve so you question my sanity..

how unclever you are..isn't your words a form of insanity..

the truth is...you dont know if spirit communication is possible

its not been proven to you so you say its unreal

how naiive of you..how insane!O0

Fiona-i will not go over the same question again.KNOWINGNESS is enough for me.

[MischiefMonkey]

mischief monkey--your not saying it to be unkind or funny?

really?

so you might actually care if im insane?

how utterly sweet of you..you disbelieve so you question my sanity..

how unclever you are..isn't your words a form of insanity..

the truth is...you dont know if spirit communication is possible

its not been proven to you so you say its unreal

how naiive of you..how insane!O0

Fiona-i will not go over the same question again.KNOWINGNESS is enough for me.

No. I'm saying given your 'symptoms' I would want to rule out a physical cause.

Stress, sleep deprivation, neurochemical disorders, electrical activity, migraines, epilepsy, brain lesions and a host of other physical illnesses can have amongst their symptoms hallucinations. They can be visual, physical or auditory. I would want to rule out the possibility I was ill.

This has been on my mind since yesterday evening. It would gnaw at me if I didn't express my concerns. I posted as much (if not more) to give myself a clear conscience as to 'help' as I thought you would react in the manner you did. I hope you consider the possibilities.

I was not implying in any way, shape or form that you are insane.

[Fiona]

Lara, why are you here? And why are you offensive to MM? You take exception to abuse from others and her post is perfectly reasonable.

I have tried to raise perfectly logical questions and what you give me back is frankly twaddle. I am sorry that you are not even prepared to think about what you assert, but there it is ;) For example you claim to have gone to church yet you do not recognise the phrase "Father of Lies?" That is a matter of general knowledge as well as of religion. I find it hard not to suspect you are disingenuous.

There is no logical reason to leave demons out. At least I can't see one and you haven't given one

Again you assert you get "feelings of love". I do not dispute it. But such feelings do not come from outside ourselves and so I do not see the relevance

The church has been involved with incorporeal entities for longer than you. That is a fact. They have a wide experience of the self delusion and insanity and they are very very careful in their investigations of miracles - well at least the long established ones are. There is none less credulous than a catholic priest in terms of accepting claims of psychic phenomena - nd they come from a stance of believing in spirit. And no, I do not believe in God. I am an atheist, as I have mentioned before

[tolman]

Fiona-i will not go over the same question again.KNOWINGNESS is enough for me.
Speaking generally, simple sincerity of belief really isn't useful as evidence, since as well as being generated by being right and actually having seen real evidence, it can also quite clearly be generated by indoctrination, faulty reasoning, willing self-delusion and various kinds of mental disorders.

The world is full of people who sincerely believe all kinds of things, many of which must logically be wrong. From the outside, the only way to get some useful idea who may be right and who may be wrong is by looking at the actual credible evidence - the claimed 'knowingness' of one or another person is of little value.

Speaking specifically, in the psychic field, if all the people (or even a decent fraction of the people) who sincerely believed they were psychics with great results were actually right, the existence of psychic abilities would long since have ceased to be doubted.
However, however many sincere people there may be who think they are psychic, they seem to have an uncanny knack of failing to demonstrate their talents in any kind of realistic test scenario.

[lara123]

No. I'm saying given your 'symptoms' I would want to rule out a physical cause.

Stress, sleep deprivation, neurochemical disorders, electrical activity, migraines, epilepsy, brain lesions and a host of other physical illnesses can have amongst their symptoms hallucinations. They can be visual, physical or auditory. I would want to rule out the possibility I was ill.

This has been on my mind since yesterday evening. It would gnaw at me if I didn't express my concerns. I posted as much (if not more) to give myself a clear conscience as to 'help' as I thought you would react in the manner you did. I hope you consider the possibilities.

I was not implying in any way, shape or form that you are insane.

Well i thankyou for your worry but you dont have to,100% declared healthly,body and mind.

[bindeweede]

Lara
On November 25th, you wrote,

lots of people occasionally have psychic experiences.These are women who have not had a reading themselves but once or a handful of times have had a connection.Many other people have connections and dismiss them.

Would you be willing to explain "psychic experiences" and "connections" for me? Is it only women?

[NB post 337]

[lara123]

Lara, why are you here? And why are you offensive to MM? You take exception to abuse from others and her post is perfectly reasonable.

I have tried to raise perfectly logical questions and what you give me back is frankly twaddle. I am sorry that you are not even prepared to think about what you assert, but there it is ;) For example you claim to have gone to church yet you do not recognise the phrase "Father of Lies?" That is a matter of general knowledge as well as of religion. I find it hard not to suspect you are disingenuous.

There is no logical reason to leave demons out. At least I can't see one and you haven't given one

Again you assert you get "feelings of love". I do not dispute it. But such feelings do not come from outside ourselves and so I do not see the relevance

The church has been involved with incorporeal entities for longer than you. That is a fact. They have a wide experience of the self delusion and insanity and they are very very careful in their investigations of miracles - well at least the long established ones are. There is none less credulous than a catholic priest in terms of accepting claims of psychic phenomena - nd they come from a stance of believing in spirit. And no, I do not believe in God. I am an atheist, as I have mentioned before

It was an offensive post,maybe not meaning to be,but still was.Yet again,we see a skeptic assuming a psychic may be ill.Skeptics dont like assumptions being made about them.

It maybe twaddle to you fiona,but to us psychics its sense.We are the ones who have more sense-literally.

I went to church as a child,i was forced to.I answered your questions about demons.They were my views,i said ive never experienced them and dont worry about them.If they exist,i have no knowledge of this.

The feelings of love from spirit are feelings of love that spirit are feeling.I feel their feelings.They are not my own feelings.

Many people of the church would be good people and wise people..i do not assume they all are...been too many convictions of these so called men of god.My mother can vouch for that.

[Fiona]

No it was not an offensive post. Lara. You are a defensive person. At least that is my view

[Nasib]

[quote=Fiona;26370]Lara, why are you here? And why are you offensive to MM? You take exception to abuse from others and her post is perfectly reasonable.



I have tried to raise perfectly logical questions and what you give me back is frankly twaddle.

To introduce a sense of intermediary reasonableness here: MM's post could be taken as rather sanctimonious, especially to a sensitive, and that's what psychics are. From my stance I can see that Lara has repeatedly attempted to answer any questions addressed to her in an honest and forthright manner, courageously I would say given the circumstances.



For example you claim to have gone to church yet you do not recognise the phrase "Father of Lies?" That is a matter of general knowledge as well as of religion. I find it hard not to suspect you are disingenuous.


I was raised in a strictly Catholic environment (in Ireland), convent educated, and I can say that I've never heard that phrase used (although in the context presented here I can deduce its reference)

As to MM's post in question addressed to Lara's sensations and experiences, these types of experiences are very commonly experienced amongst the "spiritually aware". I too have had (and still do have) these experiences and more. In fact I have attended hospital over a period of time where I have literally undergone every test there is, for the very real symptoms that have beset me. Passed from one baffled specialist to another, including head examined(!) (brain scan). Every single test proved (I hate to use the word) ... normal. In fact I have been certified more than once to be in "the most excellent health". There was a very real necessity for me to have all the suspected ailments ruled out, as I not too long ago was diagnosed with breast cancer, had the necessary treatment and .. one of the lucky ones I guess. But still within the dreaded 5-year period with the threat that it could possibly come back somewhere else, it was of course advisable to get checked out medically as my very real physical symptoms included possible brain tumour amongst others.



Again you assert you get "feelings of love". I do not dispute it. But such feelings do not come from outside ourselves and so I do not see the relevance


Lara again is recounting to you precisely what she experiences. She is certainly not alone in that concept. Love really IS the answer. And of course it's not just from within, it's all around us, and you really do get back what you give out.

[lara123]

ok.mischief monkey..i am sorry if i took you out of context,i am sorry you worried for my health,and thankyou for your worrying to a complete stranger.I realise i make claims that are difficult for some to believe.i am sorry if i came across defensive.As hard as it may seem to some of you,i am perfectly sane and healthy in every way.I can protect my stance on that if i desire to.

[MischiefMonkey]

It was an offensive post,maybe not meaning to be,but still was.Yet again,we see a skeptic assuming a psychic may be ill.Skeptics dont like assumptions being made about them.

It maybe twaddle to you fiona,but to us psychics its sense.We are the ones who have more sense-literally.

I went to church as a child,i was forced to.I answered your questions about demons.They were my views,i said ive never experienced them and dont worry about them.If they exist,i have no knowledge of this.

The feelings of love from spirit are feelings of love that spirit are feeling.I feel their feelings.They are not my own feelings.

Many people of the church would be good people and wise people..i do not assume they all are...been too many convictions of these so called men of god.My mother can vouch for that.


Lara, I meant no offense. I took care to word my post as to cause no offense. IMO, it was not an offensive post. Yet you took offense.

I was not assuming you were ill. I was concerned at the possibility that you have a physical illness.

Please bare in mind I used to truly, truly believe. While I had auditory hallucinations (when very tired) and the odd optical illusion, I never 'saw' 'spirit' in the way you describe. Also bare in mind during the later stages of his brain tumor, my uncle hallucinated.

Now you have a little more information about me, does it change your view? If so, you have made assumptions yourself about me and my motivation. I'm pleased to hear you have been declared 100% healthy. Did that involve CAT Scans? PET scans? Neurological examination? Blood Panel?

ETA: Lara, we cross posted. Thank you for the apology - honestly accepted :)

[tolman]

Skeptics dont like assumptions being made about them.
Skeptics don't tend to make claims for the existence of strange entities for which they can't provide evidence.
However, among the people who claim to see and hear things that other people can't are certainly some people with reality problems. Some of them even seem to have found their way here in the past.

One of the distinct possibilities when dealing with someone claiming psychic ability is that they have some reality issues. Another is that they're some kind of scammer, and another is that they're a troll doing some kind of wind-up.
If someone actually was psychic, it would be up to them to distinguish themselves from those other quite significant possibilities, and that's not the fault of sketpics, that's the fault of those with problems, frauds and trolls.

It maybe twaddle to you fiona,but to us psychics its sense.We are the ones who have more sense-literally.
So you claim, but you haven't yet provided evidence.

The feelings of love from spirit are feelings of love that spirit are feeling.I feel their feelings.They are not my own feelings.
How do you know they aren't your feelings?
People who hear voices in their heads may believe ('know'?) the voices aren't theirs even when they clearly are. The same goes for people who hear one or other god talking to them.

[ZERO]

Lara,
You say you are a 100% sure you are a psychic.
Why don't you make yourself available for testing?
I'm sure some members here can tell you where and how to do this.

[lara123]

Lara, I meant no offense. I took care to word my post as to cause no offense. IMO, it was not an offensive post. Yet you took offense.

I was not assuming you were ill. I was concerned at the possibility that you have a physical illness.

Please bare in mind I used to truly, truly believe. While I had auditory hallucinations (when very tired) and the odd optical illusion, I never 'saw' 'spirit' in the way you describe. Also bare in mind during the later stages of his brain tumor, my uncle hallucinated.

Now you have a little more information about me, does it change your view? If so, you have made assumptions yourself about me and my motivation. I'm pleased to hear you have been declared 100% healthy. Did that involve CAT Scans? PET scans? Neurological examination? Blood Panel?

ETA: Lara, we cross posted. Thank you for the apology - honestly accepted :)

ok mischief.i see we cross-posted.Its just tiresome to hear the illness thing all over again,can you understand that?

I appreciate what you have just said about your beliefs from the past but that still does not mean spirit contact is not possible and that it does'nt happen.

I can see them often,sense them,pass accurate information on,given future predictions,not just now and then,im talking about thousands.Im uncannily accurate most of the time,with specific detail.

I spent five intense years studying my senses.I was a non-believer before.I practiced and logged ,the evidence was clear to see.I did not practice or give free readings to get a 'client base' as someone suggested here.I moved house and got a new phone,on purpose.I had other things to do,despite tv people approach me and other people wanting me to hold a stage.I turned it down.I did charge once,for a little while,a small sum and i earnt every penny.

It was not and is not my need to make it,rarely do i give readings now,in the future,maybe,it has never been my main job and perhaps it never will be,i have not made that decision if i want it to be so.

I have explored as best as i can,i did not give readings lightly.I have had enough evidence,and my demands and expectations of that evidence have been enough for me and hundreds of others.Maybe as ive said before,i will read on here.

[bindeweede]

Lara

This is your post 219..

evening-i dont know what may come thro.there is no' normal' ,as i am a medium and planned to give readings to people in need,indeed you may get nothing.or perhaps you will.i will contact you soon,i have people waiting first but i am happy to see if anything comes up.i will be in touch.thankyou again.

Could you explain please?
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/report.php?p=18384)

[MischiefMonkey]

ok mischief.i see we cross-posted.Its just tiresome to hear the illness thing all over again,can you understand that?

I appreciate what you have just said about your beliefs from the past but that still does not mean spirit contact is not possible and that it does'nt happen.

I can see them often,sense them,pass accurate information on,given future predictions,not just now and then,im talking about thousands.Im uncannily accurate most of the time,with specific detail.

I spent five intense years studying my senses.I was a non-believer before.I practiced and logged ,the evidence was clear to see.I did not practice or give free readings to get a 'client base' as someone suggested here.I moved house and got a new phone,on purpose.I had other things to do,despite tv people approach me and other people wanting me to hold a stage.I turned it down.I did charge once,for a little while,a small sum and i earnt every penny.

It was not and is not my need to make it,rarely do i give readings now,in the future,maybe,it has never been my main job and perhaps it never will be,i have not made that decision if i want it to be so.

I have explored as best as i can,i did not give readings lightly.I have had enough evidence,and my demands and expectations of that evidence have been enough for me and hundreds of others.Maybe as ive said before,i will read on here.




Lara, I'm very tired and about to go to bed (so please excuse me if my post is a bit poor). But before I go, if you are so tired of health issues etc being raised, why post on a sceptic site? Are you trying to convince us or yourself? Or some other reason? Are you trying to convert us?

I do appreciate that you, like ES, have hung around and responded to posts. Not many have done that. While I have some insight it is always good to hear other perspectives.

Good night Lara xxx

[chillzero]

I appreciate what you have just said about your beliefs from the past but that still does not mean spirit contact is not possible and that it does'nt happen.


No, but what it does mean is that someone who used to say exactly what you are saying here, found reasonable alternative explanations for what they experienced.

I can also attest to this, having been a tarot reader, psychic and healer in my past.

All we are asking for is more concrete answers - not vague ones - and a belief enough in your own abilities to perhaps allow testing to confirm it. That needs an amount of Q&A so we can define what can and cannot be tested, and how best to approach it (not necessarily with you - but with any claimed psychic). Don't you relish the opportunity to prove us wrong?

[tolman]

I can see them often,sense them,pass accurate information on,given future predictions,not just now and then,im talking about thousands.Im uncannily accurate most of the time,with specific detail.

I spent five intense years studying my senses.I was a non-believer before.I practiced and logged ,the evidence was clear to see.I did not practice or give free readings to get a 'client base' as someone suggested here.I moved house and got a new phone,on purpose.I had other things to do,despite tv people approach me and other people wanting me to hold a stage.I turned it down.I did charge once,for a little while,a small sum and i earnt every penny.

Why is it that the famous psychics seem to be frauds, and all the accurate, real psychics all seem to shun fame (apart from talking at length about their abilities on various websites)?

If all the professional electricians were frauds, even dangerous frauds, and all the good electricians who'd spent years developing their skills were reluctant to even do work, let alone charge for it, any sane person would think that there was something seriously ****ed-up in the electrical field.
And they'd be perfectly right.


It was not and is not my need to make it,rarely do i give readings now,in the future,maybe,it has never been my main job and perhaps it never will be,i have not made that decision if i want it to be so.

I have explored as best as i can,i did not give readings lightly.I have had enough evidence,and my demands and expectations of that evidence have been enough for me and hundreds of others.Maybe as ive said before,i will read on here.

So *you* have enough evidence to convince you, and that's all you're bothered about, but you come to a skeptic site and get the hump if people doubt you?

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm a classic geek. I'm pretty insensitive and socially awkward, I prefer machines to most humans, I don't much understand other people, yet even I can try to put myself in someone else's shoes, and see that what may be convincing to me may well not be convincing to other people.
I'd have thought that a 'sensitive' person should be able to do a damn sight better job of understanding how they come across than I do, yet oddly, that doesn't seem to be how it works.
Instead, the claim of sensitivity seems to be used essentially to justify an argument from authority, which is pretty obvious circular reasoning.

Lara, if all you're going to do is make unverifiable claims about past successes while giving the impression you're not much interested in doing any future readings for anyone, let alone for anyone here, you're not going to be easily distinguishable from previous people who've made claims of great skill without giving any evidence.

[Fiona]

[quote]

To introduce a sense of intermediary reasonableness here: MM's post could be taken as rather sanctimonious, especially to a sensitive, and that's what psychics are.

Does anything at all strike you as ironic about that, Nasib? ;) You know, the claim that you are introducing reasonableness here does rather imply that it was lacking before. If I was a "sensitive" I might just find that a little.....um....well "sanctimonious", maybe?


From my stance I can see that Lara has repeatedly attempted to answer any questions addressed to her in an honest and forthright manner, courageously I would say given the circumstances.

I think Tolman has answered that more than effectively


I was raised in a strictly Catholic environment (in Ireland), convent educated, and I can say that I've never heard that phrase used (although in the context presented here I can deduce its reference)

Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies (John 8:44).
I did not have the benefit of a religious education yet I know this. Did you not listen in class?



Lara again is recounting to you precisely what she experiences. She is certainly not alone in that concept. Love really IS the answer. And of course it's not just from within, it's all around us, and you really do get back what you give out.

It really is a good job I am not a "sensitive" or I might assume you imply I do not give enough "love" to deserve any back. And I might be really upset by that. Fortunately I recognise a cliche when I see one, so all is well ;)

[lara123]

Skeptics don't tend to make claims for the existence of strange entities for which they can't provide evidence.
However, among the people who claim to see and hear things that other people can't are certainly some people with reality problems. Some of them even seem to have found their way here in the past.

One of the distinct possibilities when dealing with someone claiming psychic ability is that they have some reality issues. Another is that they're some kind of scammer, and another is that they're a troll doing some kind of wind-up.
If someone actually was psychic, it would be up to them to distinguish themselves from those other quite significant possibilities, and that's not the fault of sketpics, that's the fault of those with problems, frauds and trolls.

So you claim, but you haven't yet provided evidence.

How do you know they aren't your feelings?
People who hear voices in their heads may believe ('know'?) the voices aren't theirs even when they clearly are. The same goes for people who hear one or other god talking to them.

good points tolman.

The feelings i feel from spirit are known to me to be different from my own,from how i receive it-explained now enough times.

Where did the trolls go by the way?

[lara123]

Why is it that the famous psychics seem to be frauds, and all the accurate, real psychics all seem to shun fame (apart from talking at length about their abilities on various websites)?

If all the professional electricians were frauds, even dangerous frauds, and all the good electricians who'd spent years developing their skills were reluctant to even do work, let alone charge for it, any sane person would think that there was something seriously ****ed-up in the electrical field.
And they'd be perfectly right.



So *you* have enough evidence to convince you, and that's all you're bothered about, but you come to a skeptic site and get the hump if people doubt you?

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm a classic geek. I'm pretty insensitive and socially awkward, I prefer machines to most humans, I don't much understand other people, yet even I can try to put myself in someone else's shoes, and see that what may be convincing to me may well not be convincing to other people.
I'd have thought that a 'sensitive' person should be able to do a damn sight better job of understanding how they come across than I do, yet oddly, that doesn't seem to be how it works.
Instead, the claim of sensitivity seems to be used essentially to justify an argument from authority, which is pretty obvious circular reasoning.

Lara, if all you're going to do is make unverifiable claims about past successes while giving the impression you're not much interested in doing any future readings for anyone, let alone for anyone here, you're not going to be easily distinguishable from previous people who've made claims of great skill without giving any evidence.

I doubt all the famous psychics are frauds,someone i know had a reading with Tony stockwell,a reading that was not vague in any way,was very detailed and accurate.

Five years is not particularly a long time in this field to study this in my view,i have other agendas to see to currently in my life that take more priority.I have stated i may give readings here in the future.If i dont,i dont,skeptics have asked me the questions i have answered.

[lara123]

Lara

This is your post 219..

evening-i dont know what may come thro.there is no' normal' ,as i am a medium and planned to give readings to people in need,indeed you may get nothing.or perhaps you will.i will contact you soon,i have people waiting first but i am happy to see if anything comes up.i will be in touch.thankyou again.

Could you explain please?
http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/report.php?p=18384)

quite simple-i prefer to give readings to people of need not of greed,and nor to deceivers and people pretending to be someone else.O0

[tolman]

good points tolman.

The feelings i feel from spirit are known to me to be different from my own,from how i receive it-explained now enough times.

The thing is, lots of people know they feel things external to themselves, and even if some may be right, some of them seem pretty likely to be wrong, even if we can't always say which specific people are wrong.
I'm sure people knew they were in touch with Horus or Odin or Quetzlcoatl or Baal or whatever deity they'd been brought up to believe in, and knew what that deity wanted them or other people to do, just as various people now know what God or YHWH or Allah want them to do (curiously enough, what the deity wants often ties up very neatly with the person's own prejudices, but the externalisation of the thought is useful both as a bolstering of its authority, at least in the eyes of believers, and a simultaneous abdication of responsibility).

Externalising thoughts is a pretty basic human trait, possibly starting from the point a child can first think "Mummy wouldn't want me to do that" and have an image of their mother while they think the thought.
Many religions are basically just an extension from that to a socially shared imaginary parent-figure or family-figures.

With that baggage being a part of human nature and society, it's a tricky position for anyone to be in who's convinced they know something that they can't easily provide more than anecdotal evidence for.
A skeptic really doesn't have any choice but to adopt a position of provisional non-belief, allied to a likelihood that that position is highly unlikely to change.

[lara123]

No, but what it does mean is that someone who used to say exactly what you are saying here, found reasonable alternative explanations for what they experienced.

I can also attest to this, having been a tarot reader, psychic and healer in my past.

All we are asking for is more concrete answers - not vague ones - and a belief enough in your own abilities to perhaps allow testing to confirm it. That needs an amount of Q&A so we can define what can and cannot be tested, and how best to approach it (not necessarily with you - but with any claimed psychic). Don't you relish the opportunity to prove us wrong?

Im pleased you realised you werent a real psychic then,i have found no alternative reasons not to think otherwise of what i do.Ive already asked farside about the testing in controlled conditions,no reply as of yet.

No,i dont relish the opportunity to prove you wrong..on the small bit that i do know about 'testing' in controlled conditions..i know i cant force a spirit to visit me..i realise you have heard this all before,and under pressure it can be difficult to relax and open up.

[tolman]

I doubt all the famous psychics are frauds,someone i know had a reading with Tony stockwell,a reading that was not vague in any way,was very detailed and accurate.

One might wonder that if some genuine psychics didn't shun fame, why they wouldn't make a great deal of noise decrying the famous fakes.

If I could contact spirits of the dead, I'd be horrified at the thought people might confuse me with the Sylvia Brownes of the world.
That might well drive me away from seeking publicity, but if it didn't, I'd be doing my level best not only to distinguish myself from the frauds, but to put them out of business, given the kinds of vulnerable people they prey upon.

[lara123]

The thing is, lots of people know they feel things external to themselves, and even if some may be right, some of them seem pretty likely to be wrong, even if we can't always say which specific people are wrong.
I'm sure people knew they were in touch with Horus or Odin or Quetzlcoatl or Baal or whatever deity they'd been brought up to believe in, and knew what that deity wanted them or other people to do, just as various people now know what God or YHWH or Allah want them to do (curiously enough, what the deity wants often ties up very neatly with the person's own prejudices, but the externalisation of the thought is useful both as a bolstering of its authority, at least in the eyes of believers, and a simultaneous abdication of responsibility).

Externalising thoughts is a pretty basic human trait, possibly starting from the point a child can first think "Mummy wouldn't want me to do that" and have an image of their mother while they think the thought.
Many religions are basically just an extension from that to a socially shared imaginary parent-figure or family-figures.

With that baggage being a part of human nature and society, it's a tricky position for anyone to be in who's convinced they know something that they can't easily provide more than anecdotal evidence for.
A skeptic really doesn't have any choice but to adopt a position of provisional non-belief, allied to a likelihood that that position is highly unlikely to change.

Yes,i agree.. i hope that position will change one day,i really think it will be proven without doubt one day.I realise lots of psychics claim they 'know' too and you have no reason to think the same of me.I do understand really---i will look at the precedures of being tested and consider it.

[Matt]

I doubt all the famous psychics are frauds,someone i know had a reading with Tony stockwell,a reading that was not vague in any way,was very detailed and accurate.



Fraudulent techniques can produce identical effects.

How well versed is your friend in the methods used by fruadulent psychics to duplicate these effects? Do you have a video or a transcript that might reveal cold reading. How can you be sure that other information was not previosly researched?

[chillzero]

Im pleased you realised you werent a real psychic then,i have found no alternative reasons not to think otherwise of what i do.Ive already asked farside about the testing in controlled conditions,no reply as of yet.



No,i dont relish the opportunity to prove you wrong..on the small bit that i do know about 'testing' in controlled conditions..i know i cant force a spirit to visit me..i realise you have heard this all before,and under pressure it can be difficult to relax and open up.


I look forward to some actual testing. It was preparing for testing - I intended to try for the One Million Dollar challenge - that I realised the actual explanations for how I was doing what I did.

Tests should be setup in a manner that you won't feel in any way tense or intimidated, and indeed should not take place on the day until you confirm that you are happy with the setup.

I find it odd that people regularly claim to be unable to 'force' a spirit to contact them, and yet it is done on a daily basis for various TV schedules. Surely, there are enough people who have passed over, that some of them would also relish the opportunity to support those that they contact, and provide undeniable evidence of their own existence?

[Nasib]

Does anything at all strike you as ironic about that, Nasib? ;) You know, the claim that you are introducing reasonableness here does rather imply that it was lacking before. If I was a "sensitive" I might just find that a little.....um....well "sanctimonious", maybe?

Perhaps you are more of a "sensitive" than you think, Fiona(?) Couldn't have been further from my intention.


I think Tolman has answered that more than effectively

OK. Noted.



Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies (John 8:44).
I did not have the benefit of a religious education yet I know this. Did you not listen in class?

Probably not! That was the problem. We were forced to listen and accept. No room for question where religion was concerned. Believe blindly. I never could and never did.




It really is a good job I am not a "sensitive" or I might assume you imply I do not give enough "love" to deserve any back. And I might be really upset by that. Fortunately I recognise a cliche when I see one, so all is well ;)

Sensitive or not, I'm glad you didn't make that assumption - because you would've been so wrong - and then I would have been upset.
(Pesky cliches). I'm pleased all is well. x

[lara123]

Fraudulent techniques can produce identical effects.

How well versed is your friend in the methods used by fruadulent psychics to duplicate these effects? Do you have a video or a transcript that might reveal cold reading. How can you be sure that other information was not previosly researched?

Your first sentence is vague.I know what you mean but you cannot possible know every single fraudulent reading is identical to a real psychics reading.

Where is the skeptic on here who really has tested psychics/mediums for themselves..tested many...from the spiritual churches to the bigger names.Where is the person who has done this for five years,even with the hope of finding one.

I spent five years understanding as best i could what was happening to me AND i stood at an skeptical viewpoint.Those five years with the help of the sitters,we tore my readings apart,hundreds of them.Why dont you all here do this study to have readings by psychics and post them up.Some of you go to the same psychics.Spiritual churches are a small fee most can afford,and the others that charge more,if you only went to three or four a year over five years..you never know..one of those might surprise you.

My friend will not allow the reading to go up.She is well versed with cold reading.She had had many readings before Tony stockwell she dismissed.

I saw on bad psychics a transcript of gordons smiths' readings-and dissed.Would b/p not deliberately put up good readings of his but choose the more vaguer ones.Ive said before vague readings are not necessarily fraudulant ones.Psychics do get weaker links on some readings.

[bindeweede]

quite simple-i prefer to give readings to people of need not of greed,and nor to deceivers and people pretending to be someone else.O0

lara123/rainbows

Who are the "deceivers and people pretending to be someone else"?

[bindeweede]

lara

Do you ever read your own posts?


I spent five years understanding as best i could what was happening to me AND i stood at an skeptical viewpoint.Those five years with the help of the sitters,we tore my readings apart,hundreds of them.Why dont you all here do this study to have readings by psychics and post them up.Some of you go to the same psychics.Spiritual churches are a small fee most can afford,and the others that charge more,if you only went to three or four a year over five years..you never know..one of those might surprise you.

I have added the bold.

This is simply incomprehensible.

[Matt]

Your first sentence is vague.I know what you mean but you cannot possible know every single fraudulent reading is identical to a real psychics reading.



The effect to which I refer is impressing people with facts they "couldn't possibly have known before"

I don't know about every single fraudulent reading. I do know that the effects you mention in the detail you've given do not discount a fraudulent reading.

[Julia]

[quote]
I was raised in a strictly Catholic environment (in Ireland), convent educated, and I can say that I've never heard that phrase used (although in the context presented here I can deduce its reference)

I have to say I find this extraordinary. I didn't have a religious upbringing but I've come across the phrase "Father of Lies" umpteen times in books and films.???