Skepticism about MLM

[therealbt]

I had a conversation with John Jackson today about MLM , which in his view was/is a scam and propaganda. yet i must admit I found his response srather lame and not very Skeptical just very opinionated. after a few exchanges of email he found the conversation quite boring and suggested I come to the forum to have an open discussion.
So here I am. A bit doubtful and skeptical I have to say about Johns ability to engage in the search for knowledge.
But i'm very willing to be curious.
So folks where is the evidence that MLM and I mean all MLM is a scam and propaganda??

Bryan

[Admin]

Welcome Bryan.

Firstly, can we ascertain what it is you're claiming so that it can be discussed.

Do you think MLM is a great business opportunity in general or is it a great business opportunity per se?

Or is it a poor idea in general but you have discovered a real MLM opportunity that's different to all the rest?

We don't have a huge section devoted to MLM but here's our articles: http://www.ukskeptics.com/multi_level_marketing.php

Your emails today were just ranting and raving (and no I didn't put much effort into the replies) so please state your case here for discussion.

Let's discuss the arguments for/against MLM and not your subjective opinion of my, or anyone else's, ability to understand your stance on the subject. ;)

Fire away.

[therealbt]

I have read your articles on mlm and would agree with you that some of the points that you make are valid. but a lot of the points that you make are also out of date and certainly not applicable in todays market, communication methods and distribution systems.
Your articles appear to refer to the old model of MLM. I buy stock from the company and sell it to the customer for a profit. Is in my experience and research, this method is now pretty much old hat.
I know of companies where the requirement for one to hold stock in nihil.
The order is taken the company delivers, the customer pays the commission, the distributor paid by the customer, no investment in stock by the distributor, other than time and effort.
You also refer to the local market reaching saturation. This would not affect the latest models of MLM as the market is international.
I have a question as to how many business owners there are in the UK distributing goods?
Also every standard business model that I know of in the UK has a pyramid model (only in disguise) the chief exec at the top his team of execs underneath, another team under that etc. etc. a pyramid by any other name. wheres the wealth? at the top! whats your chances of getting wealthy as the boss in terms of earnings? zilch. Whats the possibility in MLM. Very possible, difficult? absolutely but still possible. in standard marketing distribution, totally impossible unless you become the boss.

I'll take up some other points over the next while.
In the meantime I am curious as to your personal experience of MLM is and has been and what was it that brought about the disillusionment?

cheers

Bryan

[therealbt]

John, you asked me to state what it is that I am claiming.
I am claiming that the statements that are being made are not true about MLM and most certainly not in all cases. and that if a claim is being made about MLM period then it has to be true in all cases. Otherwise the other truths should ber included.
cheers
Bryan

[Cuddles]

Perhaps you should elaborate on what you think multi-level marketing actually means. Your above post does not appear appear to have anything to do with MLM, just some stuff about stock and how higher people in companies get paid more.

[Admin]

Your articles appear to refer to the old model of MLM. I buy stock from the company and sell it to the customer for a profit. Is in my experience and research, this method is now pretty much old hat.
I know of companies where the requirement for one to hold stock in nihil.
The order is taken the company delivers, the customer pays the commission, the distributor paid by the customer, no investment in stock by the distributor, other than time and effort.

Not all MLMs involve the shifting of stock. Selling of intangibles, like telephone services (e.g. euphony telecomms), have also been around for a good while.

The point you're missing is that MLMs have a business model whereby the earning potential of a person joining the scheme is not determined by how much product they sell but by how many (active) members they can recruit into the scheme below them (their downline).

It's the business model that's the defining feature of an MLM, not the type of product/service sold (!)


You also refer to the local market reaching saturation. This would not affect the latest models of MLM as the market is international.

You may want to rethink the logic of that statement.


Also every standard business model that I know of in the UK has a pyramid model (only in disguise) the chief exec at the top his team of execs underneath, another team under that etc. etc.

Yes, most traditional businesses' organization charts will have a pyramid shape. Don't be fooled by the propaganda though. MLMers use the tricks of equivocation and false analogy by comparing a pyramid-shaped structure with a pyramid scheme. It's a trick to fool people into thinking that MLM, which is a product-based pyramid scheme, is no different to any other business.


In the meantime I am curious as to your personal experience of MLM is and has been and what was it that brought about the disillusionment?

Is this leading to an Ad Hominem (http://www.ukskeptics.com/explanation.php?dir=articles/explanations&article=ad_hominem.php) point based on a loaded question? ;)

My 'personal experience' has absolutely nothing to do with whether MLM is a good idea or not. I suspect a 'how can you criticise it if you haven't tried it?' argument coming up. Well, I haven't tried crack cocaine - but I could give damn good reasons for others not doing it.

I have looked into MLM twice (where other people have been suckered into it) but as the point is a fallacious one, I'm not going to expand on it.

Why do you use the word 'disillusionment'?

I suspect the point of you introducing that term is to make out that I think that MLMs are nothing but a scam because I tried it myself and failed. Then you can simply dismiss what I say as I'm a bitter and twisted failure.

Well you're wrong.

[Admin]

I am claiming that the statements that are being made are not true about MLM and most certainly not in all cases.

OK, I look forward to seeing your arguments supporting your claim. O0

[therealbt]

Hi John,
You said:

The point you're missing is that MLMs have a business model whereby the earning potential of a person joining the scheme is not determined by how much product they sell but by how many (active) members they can recruit into the scheme below them (their downline).

This statement is not as true as it would appear.
It is quite possible to earn a very substantial income in an MLM company (I personally know of at least one) without having a downline.
It is true, however, that to earn the long term residual income which means you could possibly retire from the business or pass it on to someone in your family, and it would continue without you, the multi-level model is the most efficient model for doing that.

By the way the only way you can fail in an genuine bona fide MLM business ( and thats where the due diligence comes in) is by quitting.

Multilevel marketing is also taught now as a legitimate method of marketing.
It is a valid methodology. why not pay all the revenues that would go to Advertising an distribution and wholesale commissions etc. etc. and pay that directly to the people who use and recommend the products but nevertheless doesnt guarantee quality of product etc. ( again a reason to do the due diligence).

Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbt http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12138#post12138)
You also refer to the local market reaching saturation. This would not affect the latest models of MLM as the market is international.

You may want to rethink the logic of that statement.

Although mathematically it may be correct. it forgets the number of people who want to have their own businesses (which as you know is not everyone)and the fact that every day many many children are born into the world so the population is not static the world bithrate is 20.59 children per 1000 of population so around 2%. In numbers thats a lot of MLMers :smiley:

So if you take the equation of numbers of people wanting to participate in the business building aspects of MLM and the growing population . Saturation is highly unlikely. Also in the MLM environments that I am familiar the models that are used are usually of the order of six (when you are talking of substantial income with the ability to replace the J.O.B. Just over broke. incomes.

Interestingly I would ask the question if MLM is so bad what is the alternative? A JOB :'( I dont think so. but perhaps you can point me to the ones that are not a time/for money swap. and one where you can stop doing and it will still keep paying you.

Is your endeavour not a time for money exchange? and what happens if you stop?

The fact that you have taken a look at MLM would suggest that you are someone who is willing to investigate possibilites. Unfortunately you were unlucky in looking at a couple of companies that didnt quite have all the elements in place to enable you to satisfy your skeptical mind and you made a good choice not to pursue them. But i have to say thats "them " but its not all of "them".
PS I'm enjoying the skepticism.
its intriguing my curiosity

cheers

Bryan

I'm looking forward to your responseO0

[Admin]

It is quite possible to earn a very substantial income in an MLM company (I personally know of at least one) without having a downline.

I would say that it's possible to make pin-money selling MLM products but there's no way that you'll make a very substantial income. The schemes are designed so that you can't make a good living at them so that their 'consultants' are encouraged to sign up new members - this ensures a constant influx of money into the company.


It is true, however, that to earn the long term residual income which means you could possibly retire from the business or pass it on to someone in your family, and it would continue without you, the multi-level model is the most efficient model for doing that.It's the dream of making big money they're selling you; the reality is quite different. And make no mistake, even if you do make good money, it can all be taken away from you at a moment's notice. They are in control not you. That's even less secure than normal self-employment.


By the way the only way you can fail in an genuine bona fide MLM business ( and thats where the due diligence comes in) is by quitting.Again, this is just MLM propaganda. I don't know if you can see the ruse but it's one that's used in all faith-based beliefs: those it didn't work for just didn't have enough faith - they are to blame for their failure, not the system.


Multilevel marketing is also taught now as a legitimate method of marketing.I've done business studies and I've never come across MLM being taught as a legitimate business model. Having said that, it certainly is an attractive model those who run the business. When you have a workforce that you don't actually employ who pay money to you to sell your products and it doesn't really matter too much how many products you sell because your money is made by the 90% of people who pay to join and leave, well you can't go too far wrong.

What MLM is not, is a good proposition to those people who are looking to earn an extra income.


Although mathematically it may be correct. it forgets the number of people who want to have their own businessesIt is mathematically correct. ;)

What you're failing to see is that demand creates supply - it's explained in one of the articles. It doesn't matter how many people want to have their own businesses (and MLM is not owning your own business) they can't sell their products to a market that isn't there (!)


Interestingly I would ask the question if MLM is so bad what is the alternative? A JOB :'( I dont think so. but perhaps you can point me to the ones that are not a time/for money swap. and one where you can stop doing and it will still keep paying you.A decent job will pay £25,000 to £30,000 a year - MLM will earn you peanuts. The reality is not the same as the propaganda will have you believe.

If you work out the hourly rate of MLM (assuming you're not making a loss) then it will be on par with doing a paper round. I'd like to see someone give up a good job (or even a minimum wage job) and swap it for MLM.

Bryan,

You keep alluding to this 'new' MLM etc. but you're not giving any information. In fact you're not presenting an argument at all!

Why not state which company you're involved with, and why you think it's a viable MLM?

i.e. give us a reason to rethink our stance.

[Cuddles]

Interestingly I would ask the question if MLM is so bad what is the alternative? A JOB :'( I dont think so. but perhaps you can point me to the ones that are not a time/for money swap. and one where you can stop doing and it will still keep paying you.

Music, film, writing.

That said, how exactly do you consider MLM not a job? Surely someone has to do some work, or where does all the money come from? The only way your views can be true is if you are at the top of the pyramid. If you are not the person in charge and are just someone who has been suckered in, you will be the one doing the work that gives money to the people at the top that aren't. Or do you really believe that it is possible to have an infinite number of people all making tons of money without doing any work?

[therealbt]

John, your information is very dated, I challenge you to relook at some of your assertions.

For example:
I've done business studies and I've never come across MLM being taught as a legitimate business model. Having said that, it certainly is an attractive model those who run the business. When you have a workforce that you don't actually employ who pay money to you to sell your products and it doesn't really matter too much how many products you sell because your money is made by the 90% of people who pay to join and leave, well you can't go too far wrong.

------------
Network marketing / mlm is taught at the University of Illinois, by Dr. Charles King, who has a doctorate in Business from Harvard Business School.

Donald Trumps friend, Entrepreneur and respected Businessman Robert Kiyosaki, best-selling author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad and nine other books, said this about networking: "If I had to do it over again, rather than build an old style type of business, I would have built a network marketing business." One of Kiyosaki's books, "The Business School for People Who Like Helping People," is about the power of mlm and the significant opportunity that it provides the average person."

85% of all traditonal businesses fail in the first five years in the UK.
Does that mean that traditional business works and is the best model to follow? I have my doubts.

A point worth noting is that most people do not join an MLM organisation in order to do the business but in order to be able to buy the products at wholesale prices. The Joining fee £12.50. and this is waived for those who chose automatic delivery for example.
Not many execs going to get rich on those joining fees huh.

Same company: 43% of Turnover is paid out in commissions

Show me a traditonal business that pays out 43% to its sales force.
-------------------------------------------------------------
You say

A decent job will pay £25,000 to £30,000 a year - MLM will earn you peanuts. The reality is not the same as the propaganda will have you believe.
If you work out the hourly rate of MLM (assuming you're not making a loss) then it will be on par with doing a paper round. I'd like to see someone give up a good job (or even a minimum wage job) and swap it for MLM.

Here are some figures that are publicly available

The Range of Average commissions paid out in 2005 by one MLM company listed on the New York Stock exchange was:
between an average of $4,332 p.a at the entry level and $490,872 at the upper level.These figures do not include any profits made on retail sales.

Some paper round!!!!
------------------------------------------
You say
What you're failing to see is that demand creates supply - it's explained in one of the articles. It doesn't matter how many people want to have their own businesses (and MLM is not owning your own business) they can't sell their products to a market that isn't there (!)

Of course demand creates supply, its the bog standard market economy model. and your argument does not hold water for consumables.

Distributors and executives in an MLM business are independent contractors and as such own their own business and are responsible for their own accounting etc. they can claim business expenses etc. just like a conventional company.

They are not employed by the company

----------------------------------
You say
it is mathematically correct. ;)

only in theory not in reality

You say
I would say that it's possible to make pin-money selling MLM products but there's no way that you'll make a very substantial income. The schemes are designed so that you can't make a good living at them so that their 'consultants' are encouraged to sign up new members - this ensures a constant influx of money into the company.

This statement is so out of date it questions your credibility as someone in the pursuit and search for knowledge.

I must say I havent seen ( that I can recall) a single argument that you have put forward to support your claim that mlm is a scam as being credible and based on real facts.

you asked me to name an MLM company.
heres one. (and I'm not involved in it, althought that might change;))
If you want a good example
take a look at Pharmanex owned by Nuskin

their address is Pharmanex.com

They have been in existence for a long time, are listed on the NYSE and were a 2005 American Business Award at the annual American Business Awards ceremony in New York City on June 6, 2005. Nu Skin Enterprises won the award in the Most Innovative Company category for the Pharmanex® BioPhotonic Scanner.

The above responses I believe debunk some(probably all) of your responses.
It would be interesting to see if you are able to take a truly Skeptical approach to your own assertions,O0


Cheers

Bryan

[Admin]

If you want to see how MLMers argue their case and make claims of huge financial success see this thread: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=53537

The John Jackson in there is me. Look particularly how I use the company's own published figures to take apart their claims and also look at the turnover of 'consultants' - the failure rate is enormous. That's a lot of people losing money - the company doesn't care as it profits from each and every one of them.

Bryan,

You're arguing like a conspiracy theorist. All you're trying to do is state that my argument is flawed/wrong/outdated etc., and implying that therefore yours is right but you don't state what your argument is. ;)

I also notice that you've evaded the question as to which company you're a 'consultant' (or whatever fancy but phony title they give you) for.

Don't just state that my points and articles are wrong - prove it.

If you can't provide a good counter-argument to mine then all I can assume is that you're simply spouting off the MLM company's propaganda that you've fallen for hook, line and sinker.

This is probably an exercise in convincing yourself that you haven't been taken for a fool as it is in convincing others that you haven't.

I've heard it all before. I've seen it all before. What I have never seen, despite people getting totally consumed by the MLM dream, is anyone making money from being involved with MLM.

It's an appeal to greed, an appeal to hope, and appeal to wishful thinking - but it's nothing but a pipe dream.

[therealbt]

Perhaps you should elaborate on what you think multi-level marketing actually means. Your above post does not appear appear to have anything to do with MLM, just some stuff about stock and how higher people in companies get paid more.

Hi Cuddles, I'm just getting to grips with how things work in this forum and my apologies for not reponding to you earlier but I missed your post.

To answer you question in my own words and my understanding:
Network marketing and MLM are synonomous.
They are methods of marketing
usually in consumbles but not necessarily.
Traditional Commercial marketing often has the company manufacturing a product, marketing it using Advertising, PR, Press releases etc.and distributing using the wholesale chain where the product goes to national distribution then regional then local and then finally to the consumer.
the pricing structure is usually worked out by manufacturing costs + advertising + wholesale markup + retail markup + Profits = final selling price.
this is not in all cases all of the time. each company will have a slightly different methodology and emphasis but it serves the purpose of giving and sense of what happens generally.

In MLM or Network marketing which are forms of Direct selling.
In MLM you will have the company the distributor and the consumer.The distributor and consumer are often one and the same

Using the multilevel model all (or most)of the traditional middle elements are cut out. This means that there are no advertising costs( usually the biggest cost) massively reduced distribution costs as the product can be sent directly to the consumer. This saves money in stocking and distribution, usually incurred by the distributor in the process.
A distributor can hold stock and retail if they so wish but it is not a requirement.

Which means that all the savings in Marketing and distribution costs can then be passed on to distributors.( i think average commission payouts are somewhere in the region of between 20 - 43% depending on which company you work with.
The multilevel element kicks in when someone who is a product user for example says "I can see an opportunity to sell these products myself" and that person would then be taught the ropes by the people who are already in the business and had introduced the product to them, maybe.
In fact the person who wanted to take the opportunity would potentially be able to choose which team they would work with.
and so the process continues.
In the old Style MLM businesses you could never earn more than your upline believe. This is not true in todays MLM enviroment. Your earnings are not limited by the people above you, so you can ean more than the people above you if you put in more effort and work more effectively.

hope this helps

but I would say do due diligence. and check out the proponents as well as the skeptics.

cheers Bryan

[Araneus]

but I would say do due diligence. and check out the proponents as well as the skeptics.

So in the interests of due diligence, how much profit have you made from participation in MLM, and over what time period?

[Legaleagle]

In MLM you will have the company the distributor and the consumer.The distributor and consumer are often one and the sameThis is one of the scam elements of MLM. Lots of the orders for goods are by the salespeople themselves or from family members who may or may not be ordering the stuff not because of "demand" for the product but through a desire to help the poor chump of an MLM salesman out.

This whole thread reminds of when a friend a mine invited me to an Amway meeting many years ago. I was only 19 or 20 at the time and not very worldly wise.

I remember that the first major problem I had with the scheme was that we were told that we would have to sell these cleaning products at the rate of about £100 of orders per week (or was it a month?). I honestly didn't want to become a part time door to door salesman and told the guy that I just couldn't see myself walking the streets trying to sell things door to door as that just wasn't my scene. On no, it's OK..came the reply.. you just order the stuff for yourself and get family members to order it and that takes care of most of your quota.

This put me off even more as I had no desire to buy anything from the catalogue personally and I had even less desire to open myself up to ridicule and loathing from family members by trying to pressurise them into buying stuff just to earn myself a few pounds commission.


(when you are talking of substantial income with the ability to replace J.O.B just over broke incomesUgghh, that trite little phrase just brought back repressed memories of the cringemaking motivational speaker bull***t which was the "highlight" of my Amway day.

Not a day I had wanted to remember.

Anyway since then I have done quite well out of my traditional J.O.B. and now own my own business. And guess what, I actually pay my sales staff decent wages with full holiday entitlements and employment rights and proper working hours. I do this because it is ethical, right and fair to all concerned. The same cannot be said of people who use the Multi Level Marketing business model.


The multilevel element kicks in when someone who is a product user for example says "I can see an opportunity to sell these products myself" and that person would then be taught the ropes by the people who are already in the business and had introduced the product to them, maybe.
In fact the person who wanted to take the opportunity would potentially be able to choose which team they would work with.
and so the process continues.Rubbish, it's a hard sell by the upline guys and they certainly don't take on and teach new salesmen the ropes out of the goodness of their heart, it's the cut of the downline commissions they're after.


In the old Style MLM businesses you could never earn more than your upline believe. This is not true in todays MLM enviroment. Your earnings are not limited by the people above you, so you can ean more than the people above you if you put in more effort and work more effectively.So exacly how has the MLM model changed in the last 15-20 years? Please enlighten me.

I don't remember that the earnings were ever limited by the people above you so your above seems to be a red herring.

[Admin]

In the old Style MLM businesses you could never earn more than your upline believe. This is not true in todays MLM enviroment. Your earnings are not limited by the people above you, so you can ean more than the people above you if you put in more effort and work more effectively.

hope this helps

It doesn't help at all I'm afraid. Again you're stating things without backing them up.

You still haven't told us which company you're involved with ;) and you keep asserting things (normally bog-standard MLM propaganda) without saying how these things are meant to work.

[Allo Allo]

Traditional Commercial marketing Asda - £2.49 Virgin Olive oil 750ml


Using the multilevel model all (or most)of the traditional middle elements are cut out. Amway - £6:00 Virgin Olive Oil 750ml


Which means that all the savings in Marketing and distribution costs can then be passed on to distributors. ;D

M

Nice cartoons here (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/time%20freedom.gif) and here (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/Devil%20-%20couple.gif)

[Admin]

Good points M.

I was going to point out that this 'cutting out the middle man' is another piece of propaganda. MLM products tend to be a lot more expensive because not only does the 'consultant' have to be paid a commission but so do all of the upline including the parent company.

And this dream of making money by doing nothing simply by recruiting people below you (retirement plan - yeah ::)) is another illusion. The dream is that you will make money from the efforts of your downline but all that is happening is that you're working to make someone in your upline rich.

Talk about being taken for a fool. ;)

[therealbt]

Go to http://www.Pharmanex.com

check it out fully and then come back with your ludicrous assertion

I havent heard any proof from any of you that mlm is Scam and propaganda.
Some of the ditributors may make unsustainable claims but that isn't the company. and if you say that it is, Show me where that is the case.

PS I am not involved with the above mentioned company, or any other mlm company. I am a Marketing consultant and trainer however.

but that's not got anything to do with my views.

if MLM is so bad as a business model what is the alternative.

The more I hear of your responses I understand more that your views are not based on fact, but not on old hat opinions.
prove to me that mlm is a scam

come on boys show me the evidence.O0

[Allo Allo]

Asda - £2.49 Virgin Olive oil 750ml

Amway - £6:00 Virgin Olive Oil 750ml

;D

M

Nice cartoons here (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/time%20freedom.gif) and here (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/Devil%20-%20couple.gif)

This is good too -

Marine Omega 120 capsules
Pharmanex £34:67


250 capsules EPA Fish oil concentrate 1000mg
Holland and Barrett £8:99


M
:alarm:

[Araneus]

if MLM is so bad as a business model what is the alternative.

Umm...all of the other ones which actually work? Or are you claiming that Microsoft, IBM, Google, General Motors and Walmart all have unsustainable business models that should be replaced with MLM?

[Legaleagle]

Pharmanex aka Nu-Skin:
http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/NuSkin'sNaughtyNumbers.htm (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/NuSkin%27sNaughtyNumbers.htm)

[therealbt]

Umm...all of the other ones which actually work? Or are you claiming that Microsoft, IBM, Google, General Motors and Walmart all have unsustainable business models that should be replaced with MLM?
again the small % at the top.
whats the difference?

[therealbt]

Try comparing apples with apples
do some research
products cant be compared
try this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmHZuRmdlSM





This is good too -

Marine Omega 120 capsules
Pharmanex £34:67


250 capsules EPA Fish oil concentrate 1000mg
Holland and Barrett £8:99


M
:alarm:

[Admin]

Go to http://www.Pharmanex.com

check it out fully and then come back with your ludicrous assertion

I havent heard any proof from any of you that mlm is Scam and propaganda.

From the link legaleagle provided:


NOTE: The FTC is currently considering comments for a proposed Business Opportunity Disclosure Rule. Since honest and meaningful disclosure of earnings of participants is germane to the proposed rule, and since the FTC has made efforts to enforce its Order for Nu Skin to cease misrepresenting earnings of its distributors, this information has been made public for examination of all interested persons, including FTC personnel.

One of the MLM companies most studied by Dr. Jon Taylor is Nu Skin Enterprises, Inc., which has recently operated as Pharmanex, Big Planet, and IDN (Interior Design Nutritionals)* – all of which could be considered Nu Skin corporate facials. Under tremendous pressure by persons he respected, he was aggressively recruited by Nu Skin (then IDN) promoters in 1994. He said "no" four times, but then decided to perform a one-year test of the program by signing up as a distributor and giving it his all for a year. He was successful as a recruiter and rose to the top 1% of distributors by the end of the year, but he was still losing money. His decision to quit and report his findings led to more extensive research on the entire MLM field and to the reports on this web site.
During this experience, Taylor learned that the numbers that were quoted him on average earnings of distributors and other relevant reports were full of misrepresentations, as were the reports of many other MLM companies. A more complete account of Taylor’s experiences with Nu Skin is reported in "NUSKIN ATTEMPTS TO DISCREDIT ITS WHISTLEBLOWER." (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/whistleblower.htm)
Looks like a scam fuelled by propaganda to me. ;)

"He was successful as a recruiter and rose to the top 1% of distributors by the end of the year, but he was still losing money."

As I've said elsewhere on these forums, I've seen people get completely consumed by the MLM bug and who gave it 100% effort - but they still quit in the end as no matter how hard they tried to sell products, motivate others, and recruit new members, they couldn't make money at it.


come on boys show me the evidence.O0

See above.

The bottom line here is that MLM is a system that not only doesn't work but can't possibly work. It's explained here: The truth about the downline. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_truth_about_the_downline.php)

Yes you can make pin-money by peddling products but this opportunity to find great wealth by sponsoring others to earn money for you (the couch potato's dream) is the inherent scam in every MLM.

It doesn't matter who the company is or what the product is, it is the very concept of Multi Level Marketing itself that is flawed. Companies can make money by marketing their products via MLM, but the 'consultants' and 'executives' (a.k.a. the marks) are virtually guaranteed to lose money or work long and hard to break even.

[Legaleagle]

Try comparing apples with apples
do some research
products cant be compared
try this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmHZuRmdlSM

It seems that Pharmanex/Nu-Skin is involved in various bits of litigation over in the US regarding the claims it makes for it's products:sad:

You have already admitted on this formum that "the Distributer and the Consumer are the same in MLM". Only someone with a vested interest (distributer trying to make up his quota) or maybe the occasional gullible member of the public is actually going to buy Pharmanex's overpriced products with their disputed efficacy. Maybe this is why Pharmanex has adoped the MLM model as it can't sell it's products using the normal transparent and honest mechanisms of the marketplace.;)

[therealbt]

It seems that Pharmanex/Nu-Skin is involved in various bits of litigation over in the US regarding the claims it makes for it's products:sad:

You have already admitted on this formum that "the Distributer and the Consumer are the same in MLM". Only someone with a vested interest (distributer trying to make up his quota) or maybe the occasional gullible member of the public is actually going to buy Pharmanex's overpriced products with their disputed efficacy. Maybe this is why Pharmanex has adoped the MLM model as it can't sell it's products using the normal transparent and honest mechanisms of the marketplace.;)

Which bits of litigation specifically?

distributor and consumer "can" be the same, not "are" the same.

I await the info with anticipation
O0 :smiley:

[therealbt]

You could also compare ford fiesta to BMW to Mercedes to Bentley to Ferrari to Lamborghini. all cars all got four wheels but the same? I dont think so.

same applies to MLM
O0

[Araneus]

again the small % at the top. whats the difference?

I'm confused -- if you are saying that MLM and traditional business models are similar with respect to the distribution of incomes (i.e. only those at the top make significant money), then what is the advantage of MLM? Why should I give up my stable £25k-a-year job in favour of something which requires more work and dedication, a good deal of luck, and is not going to provide anywhere near my current income until I have risen sufficiently far up the chain?

[therealbt]

Ugghh, that trite little phrase just brought back repressed memories of the cringemaking motivational speaker bull***t which was the "highlight" of my Amway day.



Now I understand your position. Just wasn't the right company or time for you.

try reading this article in response to jon taylors requests to the FTC

http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/businessopprule/rebuttal/522418-13244.pdf

also try reading this.

http://www.multileveler.com/2006/06/the_antimlm_zealots_part_1.html

[Allo Allo]

An aspect of the “scam” is to make people think they are “running their own business” selling in an MLM system. I am watching someone who thinks she is running her own business and who is trying to recruit people and sell Amway products (UK Amivo). Some years ago she says she joined up with (then) Amway – but never made any money because she did no “recruiting”. She blamed herself. Another person I know also blames herself for not making money. She says that she could recruit people, but they wouldn’t buy the product.

So here, in a tiny town, we have two people who blame themselves because their “own” businesses didn’t make them any money. And now one poor deluded soul is trying AGAIN!

MLM is NOT “your own business”.

“Now you can own your own independent, home based business in a rapidly growing market that is expanding worldwide. How would you like to be the one to decide when you work, how long you work, how much you would like to earn and how soon you would like to retire? If you would like to take control of your future, then this unique, versatile and ethical business model is for you. With low start-up costs and a potential to generate thousands of dollars of residual income every month you can change your life.” (My bolding)

All this is a load of bolony!

In your own business you become more than diligent! You work your ass off night and day for many years before you get known. You sit up nights working out VAT or trying to balance the books. You wake up nights in a cold sweat because someone hasn’t paid you and you have to pay someone else. You slog your own guts out because there is not enough profit to pay staff. You don’t go away on holiday because you can’t afford to close your business. And you don’t mind because you are doing this entirely for YOURSELF.
When, at last, if you are lucky, things get stable and the business “takes off” (usually seven years or more to be an “overnight success”!!) everything about it, is ENTIRELY AND COMPLETELY YOURS. But God you worked for it – and that really feels wonderful!

Even if the person who is trying Amway AGAIN in our town was more than diligent– she would never get to this point. In seven years time, she will still just be a rep for Amway.

The rapidly growing market for Amway is Asia and the East. I find that an uncomfortable thought.

As for comparing apples to apples, I watched the video. I’m afraid I’m not a “supplement” person – I get nearly all the stuff my body needs from “food”. My hackles usually rise if someone mentions “health food” “supplements” and so on – but my WORST is “de-tox”! I have found my kidneys, liver and spleen etc work quite well just by themselves.

But that’s just me – I have found many people are more gullible. (nice pun!)



M
:knitter:

[Legaleagle]

Which bits of litigation specifically?

distributor and consumer "can" be the same, not "are" the same.

I await the info with anticipation
O0 :smiley:

So what percentage of Pharmanex sales are to distributors?


Try these for size

www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/08/nuskin3.shtm (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/08/nuskin3.shtm)
www.iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring2000/kimpel/cholestin.html (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/www.iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring2000/kimpel/cholestin.html)

[therealbt]

I'm confused -- if you are saying that MLM and traditional business models are similar with respect to the distribution of incomes (i.e. only those at the top make significant money), then what is the advantage of MLM? Why should I give up my stable £25k-a-year job in favour of something which requires more work and dedication, a good deal of luck, and is not going to provide anywhere near my current income until I have risen sufficiently far up the chain?

That was the "Skeptics" claim not mine that only those at the top make the money. I was saying if thats the case whats the difference.

So your 25k a year job is that it!!!!!!
how long you been doing the job?
put the same amount of time and effort into MLM and you may have been able to achieve a lot more than what you've got now.(but not guaranteed)
What are you future prospects in you J.O.B? What guarantees you got now? thats a big question. You've got no security in your job.You probably aren't paid what you are worth, and you have not very much control over your income cos no matter how hard you work you're not going to get paid more.
perhaps you ought to try MLM ing in a serious way, and if you have failed once already then think back to when you fell over as a child. I assume your not still on your back so do the same thing, get up and do it again.
but do more due diligence this time.

[Legaleagle]

Now I understand your position. Just wasn't the right company or time for you.[quote]

No. The baisc proposition of MLM is what isn't right, it makes no difference what product or company is involved.

[quote]try reading this article in response to jon taylors requests to the FTC

http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/businessopprule/rebuttal/522418-13244.pdf

also try reading this.

http://www.multileveler.com/2006/06/the_antimlm_zealots_part_1.htmlI have read those articles. They are not detailed rebutals and are pretty much solid ad-hom against the whistleblowers and as such they do not take the arguement any further.

[therealbt]

So what percentage of Pharmanex sales are to distributors?


Try these for size

www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/08/nuskin3.shtm (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/08/nuskin3.shtm)
www.iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring2000/kimpel/cholestin.html (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/www.iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring2000/kimpel/cholestin.html)

Your links dont work. but look at the dates. they were a long time ago and that was in the days of learning the rules I guess. its not defensible but understandable. plus I dont know enough about consent orders and what they really mean.

Also that was not pharmanex

[therealbt]

[quote=therealbt;12234]Now I understand your position. Just wasn't the right company or time for you.[quote]

No. The baisc proposition of MLM is what isn't right, it makes no difference what product or company is involved.

I have read those articles. They are not detailed rebutals and are pretty much solid ad-hom against the whistleblowers and as such they do not take the arguement any further.

if thats not a rebuttal then I don't get that anything could ever be.
I suppose that supports being a Skeptic.

try this then: if you want a rebuttal of jon taylors comments about Len Clemensts
http://www.marketwaveinc.com/articles/Taylor-Rebuttal-1.pdf


You really Don't understand MLM do you.
How long were you with Amway?

[Legaleagle]

You really Don't understand MLM do you.
How long were you with Amway?

I thought my original post made clear that I didn't join Amway but in case it did not I can assure you that I did not:smiley:

As to whether I understand MLM... well, this seems to be your standard accusation which you have made to both John Jackson and myself in this thread... yet you have singularly failed to point out the false premises in our arguments which you have obviously identified... so over to you old chap, I am waiting to be educated.

As to the links, I am sorry if they don't work but I am sure if you type them into your google browser you will find the relevent reports as I did, and yes, they do relate to Pharmanex.

[Araneus]

So your 25k a year job is that it!!!!!!
how long you been doing the job?
put the same amount of time and effort into MLM and you may have been able to achieve a lot more than what you've got now.(but not guaranteed)

I note you haven't answered my original question: how much money do you make from MLM? What work do you do, and how many hours a week do you have to spend doing it?

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not considering participation in MLM, I just want to see some evidence backing up your repeated assertions that MLM is more lucrative than ordinary employment.

[therealbt]

An aspect of the “scam” is to make people think they are “running their own business” selling in an MLM system. I am watching someone who thinks she is running her own business and who is trying to recruit people and sell Amway products (UK Amivo). Some years ago she says she joined up with (then) Amway – but never made any money because she did no “recruiting”. She blamed herself. Another person I know also blames herself for not making money. She says that she could recruit people, but they wouldn’t buy the product.

So here, in a tiny town, we have two people who blame themselves because their “own” businesses didn’t make them any money. And now one poor deluded soul is trying AGAIN!

MLM is NOT “your own business”.

“Now you can own your own independent, home based business in a rapidly growing market that is expanding worldwide. How would you like to be the one to decide when you work, how long you work, how much you would like to earn and how soon you would like to retire? If you would like to take control of your future, then this unique, versatile and ethical business model is for you. With low start-up costs and a potential to generate thousands of dollars of residual income every month you can change your life.” (My bolding)

All this is a load of bolony!

In your own business you become more than diligent! You work your ass off night and day for many years before you get known. You sit up nights working out VAT or trying to balance the books. You wake up nights in a cold sweat because someone hasn’t paid you and you have to pay someone else. You slog your own guts out because there is not enough profit to pay staff. You don’t go away on holiday because you can’t afford to close your business. And you don’t mind because you are doing this entirely for YOURSELF.
When, at last, if you are lucky, things get stable and the business “takes off” (usually seven years or more to be an “overnight success”!!) everything about it, is ENTIRELY AND COMPLETELY YOURS. But God you worked for it – and that really feels wonderful!

Even if the person who is trying Amway AGAIN in our town was more than diligent– she would never get to this point. In seven years time, she will still just be a rep for Amway.

The rapidly growing market for Amway is Asia and the East. I find that an uncomfortable thought.

As for comparing apples to apples, I watched the video. I’m afraid I’m not a “supplement” person – I get nearly all the stuff my body needs from “food”. My hackles usually rise if someone mentions “health food” “supplements” and so on – but my WORST is “de-tox”! I have found my kidneys, liver and spleen etc work quite well just by themselves.

But that’s just me – I have found many people are more gullible. (nice pun!)



M
:knitter:

Is that Amways Line?
Not a company I would choose to work with if i was going to do MLM.


It is your own business as a sub conttractor to the business.
just like all the people and companies that built Wembley Stadium are sub contractors and own their own businesses.

You Dont get enough from food well certainly not enough for optimum health. You can't get enough nutrition from you food unless you eat masses and masses of fruit and vegetables, due to the depletion in nutrient levels caused by overfarming, fertilisers etc.etc, which is practically very difficult to do and as most people are not willing to change their lifestyles, they stay where they are. So suplementation is an option for those who want to continue with the eating habits that they have.

Do you know what the antioxidant levels are in your body?

Do some research on Free radicals and anti-oxidants. it might make you think

Heres the test from an article written in the Independent.
3.6 million people in Britain suffer from malnutrition. Hospitals see 44% rise in cases as cost to the NHS hits £7.3bn By Marie Woolf, Political Editor. Published: 06 May 2007
Alarming levels of malnutrition have been recorded in Britain, The Independent on Sunday has learned, prompting further medical concern at the effects of the nation's addiction to salty, fatty, junk food.
Despite high-profile campaigns by the Government and celebrity chefs to improve eating habits, new figures reveal that there has been a 44 per cent increase in hospital cases of malnutrition over the past five years.
Amid estimates that up to 3.6 million people are suffering from malnutrition, including conditions found in sub-Saharan Africa, MPs and doctors last night called for action to tackle poor diets, and for all patients to be screened for malnutrition. They called for the Government's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice) guidelines to be made compulsory.
In 2002, 2,729 people in English hospitals were diagnosed with malnutrition. Last year, the number had risen to 3,931.
The British Association for Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition estimates malnutrition costs the NHS more than £7.3bn a year, double the annual obesity bill. Doctors estimate that up to 6 per cent of the population could be suffering from malnutrition and serious vitamin and mineral deficiencies caused by poor diet. Most do not have their conditions identified.
Experts said a reliance on pre-prepared food and failure to eat enough fresh fruit and vegetables is depleting levels of essential micro-nutrients. The deficiencies are found in teenagers, the elderly, adults and babies as young as 18 months. They warn the balance of nutrients is also disturbed by binge drinking, excess sugar and drug use.
Dr Mike Stroud, senior lecturer at the Institute of Human Nutrition, University of Southampton, who chaired the group that drew up the Nice malnutrition guidelines, says the health service is not taking the problem seriously enough. "The modern diet is not providing enough vitamins. Malnourishment is going to make you more vulnerable to illnesses and less able to cope with them. The medical profession is only just beginning to take on board the implications of nutrition in patients."

[therealbt]

I note you haven't answered my original question: how much money do you make from MLM? What work do you do, and how many hours a week do you have to spend doing it?

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not considering participation in MLM, I just want to see some evidence backing up your repeated assertions that MLM is more lucrative than ordinary employment.

I am not in an MLM company.

I have my own business. not mlm based.

there is a ton of evidence out there that you can earn a living at MLM certainly at the 25K a year level. I would expect that it would involve a lot of hard work though, however i suppose it does have the ability to allow you to work hard an reap the rewards.

you never answered my question
how long were you with Amway before you quit?

[therealbt]

I thought my original post made clear that I didn't join Amway but in case it did not I can assure you that I did not:smiley:

As to whether I understand MLM... well, this seems to be your standard accusation which you have made to both John Jackson and myself in this thread... yet you have singularly failed to point out the false premises in our arguments which you have obviously identified... so over to you old chap, I am waiting to be educated.

As to the links, I am sorry if they don't work but I am sure if you type them into your google browser you will find the relevent reports as I did, and yes, they do relate to Pharmanex.


the top link was nuskin so is not pharmanex related. Pharmanex didnt start till way after 97.
the other link is a dead link even with cut and paste

you havent shown me yet that you do understand MLM
i dont need to educate you. you could do that yourself if you so choose.
I'm very skeptical about the amount that you guys really know about MLM and where you got your information from.
Not that I'm Skeptical you'll understand old chapO0:smiley:

[therealbt]

I thought my original post made clear that I didn't join Amway but in case it did not I can assure you that I did not:smiley:

As to whether I understand MLM... well, this seems to be your standard accusation which you have made to both John Jackson and myself in this thread... yet you have singularly failed to point out the false premises in our arguments which you have obviously identified... so over to you old chap, I am waiting to be educated.

As to the links, I am sorry if they don't work but I am sure if you type them into your google browser you will find the relevent reports as I did, and yes, they do relate to Pharmanex.

Oops, Sorry, I got you mixed up with someone else on the Amway thing.

who were you with?

[Araneus]

I am not in an MLM company. I have my own business. not mlm based.

Well that is interesting. For all your talk about how MLM is a better way of earning a living than traditional businesses, you are not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and take up MLM yourself.


there is a ton of evidence out there that you can earn a living at MLM certainly at the 25K a year level. I would expect that it would involve a lot of hard work though, however i suppose it does have the ability to allow you to work hard an reap the rewards.I am sure it is possible for some people to earn above £25k through MLM, but that does not mean that it MLM an easy way of earning this amount, particularly if it involves as much hard work as you seem to suggest.

On the other hand, most reasonably-educated people can walk into a £25k 37-hour-a-week graduate job straight out of university, making it rather obviously a better option.


you never answered my question
how long were you with Amway before you quit?I was never in Amway, and have never participated in an MLM scheme of any kind.

[therealbt]

Well that is interesting. For all your talk about how MLM is a better way of earning a living than traditional businesses, you are not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and take up MLM yourself.

I am sure it is possible for some people to earn above £25k through MLM, but that does not mean that it MLM an easy way of earning this amount, particularly if it involves as much hard work as you seem to suggest.

On the other hand, most reasonably-educated people can walk into a £25k 37-hour-a-week graduate job straight out of university, making it rather obviously a better option.

I was never in Amway, and have never participated in an MLM scheme of any kind.

So how do you know then?

on what authority and experience?

I would have thought that your dreams would have been bigger than a ceiling of 25k. You certainly have the capability and the potential of more. its just that your bosses arent going to pay it.

[therealbt]

Perhaps we should go back to the original premise.
You guys at Skeptics suggest that MLM is a Scam and propoganda.

OK I accept the premise. now show me the PROOF. not just opinions. I want REAL proof. which I havent seen so far.

Come on guys lets see the real deal.O0

[Admin]

Perhaps we should go back to the original premise.
You guys at Skeptics suggest that MLM is a Scam and propoganda.

OK I accept the premise. now show me the PROOF. not just opinions. I want REAL proof. which I havent seen so far.

Come on guys lets see the real deal.O0

Again, I invite you to read this: The truth about the downline (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_truth_about_the_downline.php).

See this:



What is the problem?

In business demand creates supply. For example: if there is one car dealership in town that is struggling to meet the demand for cars, a second dealership may open up in competition, as there is enough demand. What if a third opened up, a fifth, a tenth?

It should be obvious that once the demand is met, the sellers' market is saturated; new dealerships would lose money, as there is no further demand for the product.

In MLM the equivalent of these new dealerships is realised in the form of new recruits to the scheme. Whatever the MLM product is, there will be a finite demand for it. There will be a precise number of distributors who can sell the products to this limited audience at a profit; further recruits to the scheme are buying into a saturated market.

This is the major flaw with MLM. New members are encouraged to recruit more new members who in turn are encouraged to recruit even more.
Why don't you state why that is wrong? ;)

I say that it is impossible to have an exponentially expanding sales force selling a product/service that has little demand for it.

Explain why that is wrong and I'll start taking you seriously.

[therealbt]

Again, I invite you to read this: The truth about the downline (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_truth_about_the_downline.php).

See this:

Why don't you state why that is wrong? ;)

I say that it is impossible to have an exponentially expanding sales force selling a product/service that has little demand for it.

Explain why that is wrong and I'll start taking you seriously.

Guys thats not proof


You shouls be able to do better than thatO0

[Admin]

Guys thats not proof


You shouls be able to do better than thatO0

It's a bloody good argument - why don't you offer a robust counter-argument?

I'm not interested in a Tom & Jerry fight where each side tries to bash the living daylights out of the other one - just present either a good argument for why you think MLM is a viable business option for your average person or offer a counter-argument to why I'm saying it's not.

[therealbt]

Again, I invite you to read this: The truth about the downline (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_truth_about_the_downline.php).

See this:

Why don't you state why that is wrong? ;)

I say that it is impossible to have an exponentially expanding sales force selling a product/service that has little demand for it.

Explain why that is wrong and I'll start taking you seriously.

my comment on your argument is: is demand ever met in a cunsumables market? probably not.

and your premise is still not proof.

the only thing it could prove is that it might be dammed hard work.
so was the research etc before open heart surgery was possible.thats not an argument against it and not to do it.

where would we be if everyone in history had that attitude;D

[therealbt]

but yours isnt a good argument its a non starter
you may call it an argument but its not because you dont have to have that level of downline to be successful and earn a substantial living. certainly more than 25k which has been eluded to as a good wage in the forum.

[therealbt]

I have a question that you might be able to answer.
Why are some MLM companies very successful. by any measure?

why havent they all folded?

and Why are they legal?

[Legaleagle]

I have a question that you might be able to answer.
Why are some MLM companies very successful. by any measure?

For whom are they successful?


why havent they all folded?

The parent company doesn't fold but if we take your assumption that the "reps" or "downline" guys are actually running their own businesses and that between 90 and 99% of them quit the business I would say that the MLM business failure rate was hovering between 90 and 100%


and Why are they legal?

At last! you have asked an intelligent question.;D

[Admin]

So you can't counter my argument then Bryan.

[therealbt]

For whom are they successful?



The parent company doesn't fold but if we take your assumption that the "reps" or "downline" guys are actually running their own businesses and that between 90 and 99% of them quit the business I would say that the MLM business failure rate was hovering between 90 and 100%



At last! you have asked an intelligent question.;D


For their shareholders, investors and successful distributors.

Whats the intelligent answer to the intelligent question?

[therealbt]

whats is your real argument?

[Admin]

whats is your real argument?

::)

[therealbt]

your original statement was that MLM is a scam and propoganda. The only counterargument is that if you increase 10 people continually then you will cover the population of the world.
Doesnt affect the practical success of an MLM company for a whole bunch of reasons the main one being that you dont have to have a downline of your proportions to be successful.

Are you suggesting that NuSkin for example is not successful.
Their shareholders wouldn't agree with you. neither would the distributors who shared in the $500+million that the company paid out in commissions. thats 43% of Turnover.
Whats your counter argument to that?

[Admin]

your original statement was that MLM is a scam and propoganda.

It's a scam that uses propaganda techniques to get people to buy into the dream before buying into the reality.


The only counterargument is that if you increase 10 people continually then you will cover the population of the world.

No, as I've explained several times the fundamental flaw in MLM is that too many people end up trying to sell a product there's little demand for. You can't have an exponentially expanding sales force selling an overpriced product that there's little demand for.


Doesnt affect the practical success of an MLM company...

Don't try shifting the focus of the argument. No-one's saying that MLM doesn't work for the company running it. It's the false promise of potential wealth they sell to their distributors that's the problem with it.


Are you suggesting that NuSkin for example is not successful.

No, I'm saying that 99% of people who join as distributors are either losing money or barely breaking even chasing a dream.


Their shareholders wouldn't agree with you.

Agreed.


neither would the distributors who shared in the $500+million that the company paid out in commissions. thats 43% of Turnover.
Whats your counter argument to that?

Show me the company's figures. ;)

[Allo Allo]

It is your own business as a sub conttractor to the business.
just like all the people and companies that built Wembley Stadium are sub contractors and own their own businesses. No, it's not the same.

You Dont get enough from food well certainly not enough for optimum health. You can't get enough nutrition But I doubt it's for the reasons you give...

Do you know what the antioxidant levels are in your body?No - and I'm doubtful about your antioxidant measuring machine too.

Do some research on Free radicals and anti-oxidants. it might make you think >:-) I know more than you think.

"Alarming levels of malnutrition have been recorded in Britain...... I am not one of them fortunately.

[therealbt]

http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/library/pdf/2007-q1-distributors.pdf

http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/library/pdf/2007-q1-balance-sheet.pdf

http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/library/pdf/2007-q1-income-statement.pdf


now whats your argument?
over a billion in sales 42%+ paid out in commissions

i think you've lost this one

[therealbt]

No, it's not the same.
But I doubt it's for the reasons you give...
No - and I'm doubtful about your antioxidant measuring machine too.
>:-) I know more than you think.
I am not one of them fortunately.

check out the science on the biophotonic scanner.
http://www.pharmanexusa.com/library/px/Flash/pharmanexscanner/index.html

you might think your not be one of the malnourished but how do you know?

If your doubtful or skeptical about the reasons then do a bit of researchO0


the truth really might set you free from your limited thinking

[therealbt]

really interesting Folks. I came to this site whilst doing some due diligence about MLM in todays environment and searched out articles on the difference between MLM and Pyramid selling.

You guys have caused me to push my due diligence forward faster than I had originally planned but its interesting that at every turn you dont really have an argument against MLM that actually stands up to scrutiny. so your pushing me closer to the conclusion that MLM is a very promising possibility of building a very good business if you are willing to select the right company, be willing to work very hard and there is really no good reason why one couldnt become very successful and possibly very wealthy.

Does anyone have a better option?
O0O0O0

[therealbt]

[quote=

I say that it is impossible to have an exponentially expanding sales force selling a product/service that has little demand for it.

Explain why that is wrong and I'll start taking you seriously.[/quote]

2,421,300,059 Life pak units sold up until a couple of minutes ago
thats nearly 2.5 billion and of course thats in a market that has little demand.
Come on John get your facts straight

information came from
http://www.pharmanex.com/corp/index.shtml

check it out yourself. be skeptical O0

[Admin]

http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/library/pdf/2007-q1-distributors.pdf

http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/library/pdf/2007-q1-balance-sheet.pdf

http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/library/pdf/2007-q1-income-statement.pdf


now whats your argument?
over a billion in sales 42%+ paid out in commissions

i think you've lost this one

A billion in sales @ 42% commission between ~800,000 active members:

That's around $525 per year per 'consultant' or an average of $10.10 per week per consultant.

That's before expenses - remember they're (pseudo)self-employed.

To me, that looks like pin-money.

[Admin]

check out the science on the biophotonic scanner.
http://www.pharmanexusa.com/library/px/Flash/pharmanexscanner/index.html

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sorry Bryan, but you ain't got a clue mate.

[therealbt]

Sorry mate you aint got the clue. the 800,000 users you equate to are distributors/users not executives building business.

your figures aint correct I'm afraid

Dont get smug too soon

whats your comment on the "no demand" market of nearly 2.5 billion units?


ToucheO0O0O0O0O0O0O0

[Admin]

You guys have caused me to push my due diligence forward faster than I had originally planned but its interesting that at every turn you dont really have an argument against MLM that actually stands up to scrutiny. so your pushing me closer to the conclusion that MLM is a very promising possibility of building a very good business if you are willing to select the right company, be willing to work very hard and there is really no good reason why one couldnt become very successful and possibly very wealthy.

Does anyone have a better option?
O0O0O0

Bryan, you're either invloved in MLM (which despite your denials I strongly suspect. i.e. Pharmanex) or you're looking to justify your doing so.

It's up to you pal, if you're convinced of it then go ahead and sign on the dotted line, pay your fee, and give it your best shot.

You'd obviously started this thread with your mind firmly made up and nothing is going to change it.

Perhaps having a go at MLM, losing money, making a fool of yourself to all those who know you (there's no credibility in being in an MLM - most people will think you're an idiot), and becoming a complete and utter social bore may, eventually, teach you the lesson.

MLM is a scam.

Do let us know how you get on. ;)

[therealbt]

almost 550 million divided by 30,000 executives = approX and average of 18000+ per exec.

a lot earn a lot less and a lot earn a lot more

double touche;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

[Admin]

2,421,300,059 Life pak units sold up until a couple of minutes ago
thats nearly 2.5 billion and of course thats in a market that has little demand.
Come on John get your facts straight

information came from
http://www.pharmanex.com/corp/index.shtml

check it out yourself. be skeptical O0

Thanks Bryan.

2.4 billion units sold - that means 1 in 2 adults throughout the world will own one (whatever it is) or have owned one.

So where are these Life Pak units then?

Something doesn't add up - as usual.

[Admin]

almost 550 million divided by 30,000 executives = approX and average of 18000+ per exec.

a lot earn a lot less and a lot earn a lot more

double touche;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

Right.

So the remaining 770,000 "Total Actives" don't count then?

So you're happy to exclude 770,000 people chasing a dream just to make your figures look a little better for the 30,000 making $14,000 (~£8,000) a year off their backs?

NOW do you see how MLM 'works'?

Like I said Bryan, go and try it for yourself. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. If you're not smart enough to learn from other people's mistakes then, sadly, you'll have to learn from your own.

Come back here when you've retired and your downline is keeping you in luxury. ;)

[therealbt]

and you still havent come up with a good argument.
The ones that you have presented have been very weak at best and just an opinion at worst.

No I'm not in MLM.

My late wife was an MLM exec up until she passed away in '99 at age 38.
She was doing the MLM and I know that she was making a very good living from the commissions and retail profits she was making. They were quite substantial. She hadnt reached the top but was well on her way.she was in the Hair skin and Nutrition business.

I wasn't involved in her business.

I have lately been investigating some new opportunities and MLM came up as a possibility hence my process of due diligence and my journey to your site


So although not in it I have a quite close knowledge.
perhaps a lot more than yours

[therealbt]

you said

2.4 billion units sold - that means 1 in 2 adults throughout the world will own one (whatever it is) or have owned one.

So where are these Life Pak units then?

Something doesn't add up - as usual.

Do your research John your suffering from foot and mouth.

Life pak is a nutritional Supplement and nearly 2.5 billion have been consumed dummy

Your making yourself look silly now

[therealbt]

you said:

So the remaining 770,000 "Total Actives" don't count then?

So you're happy to exclude 770,000 people chasing a dream just to make your figures look a little better for the 30,000 making $14,000 (~£8,000) a year off their backs?
----------
Gosh you really are a dummy sometimes John.

the 770,000 actives are people who buy the product at wholesale prices and then consume them. they have no interest in the business side but want and benefit from using the products I assume. unless you are saying there are 770,000 dummies out there

your losing it my friend

[therealbt]

heres a scenario that you might likje to comment on.

an individual is looking for a supplement to take as they have read or heard all the information thats out there in the media.

They find their way to Lifepak somehow and a distributor says to them. Yep we've got a supplement that you could take that has a 90 day money back guarantee. that if your SCS (skin Carotenoid Score) doesnt increase then you can have your mony back.Walk into haolland and barrett or Boots and ask for the same guarantees and they'll laugh at you

;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

[Admin]

Bryan,

Sign on the dotted line pal. ;)

Like I said, you came here already convinced so I fail to see what you're getting out of this.

Just join your MLM scam and learn your lesson.

End of.

This is turning back into a Tom & Jerry argument. ::)

The best thing you can do is prove me (us) wrong by joining your MLM and making your fortune from your downline.

Good luck. You'll need it. ;)

[Admin]

the 770,000 actives are people who buy the product at wholesale prices and then consume them.

Or people who sign up as 'consultants' and then end up buying the products to keep their sales figures up because they can't sell them to anyone else?

;D ;D ;D

[therealbt]

you didnt comment on my comments.

Sorry to see that you've given up without being able to prove anything .

other than that you have a baseless misplaced opinion

I've given you proof to substantiate what I have said but you have given me no proof whatsoever to substantiate your position.

I understand that it can be quite scary to accept that there are lots of possibilities and opportunities in the world. and it must be quite comforting to be able to hide behind a cloak of Skepticism so that you do'nt have to go out there and test your metal.

i respect your standing for what sustains you but your positioning is not sustainable.

I would think that you might be a much happier and joyous person if you were able to dream up possibilities and turn them into vision and action. moving forward honouring who you really are.

But we all have our journeys

I was quite willing to join you guys in Skeptical debate but it isn't skeptical its only opinionated.
I wish you well in your neersaying and doom spreading scenarios

You are a much greater man than you realise that you are John.
Go seek it
Step into the light and out of the darkness.

For you are I and I am you, we are the same.

Journey well my friendO0

[therealbt]

Or people who sign up as 'consultants' and then end up buying the products to keep their sales figures up because they can't sell them to anyone else?

;D ;D ;D

Your behind the times John, thats the old Amway way if I'm not mistaken. you'll get bad apple distributors in lots of companies. not necessarily MLM. its just the human condition for some.

its not the MLM thats at fault its the individual.

[therealbt]

Good Morning John,

I don't need to prove that MLM works as thousands have already proven that it can work and the evidence is clear.

your just too blinded by your opinion to see the facts.

e,g, There are getting on for 30,000 in just one company. Aaveraging 18,000 p.a. verified on the accounts of a publicly listed company.

if you include the listed and unlisted companies then thats over 2000 companies just in the US.

Thats a lot more proof than you are putting forward.

you really should study and research MLM before you try and label it with an unjustified label.

If anything John you are acting like a SCAM . all smoke and mirrors.
your premise of being a skeptic "being a doubter" is the only truth here. being a searcher for knowledge is not what you do.and the actions you take confirm that. theres a great deal of incongruency

The worst thing about it is that you are doing yourself a disservice and the general public who may come to your site and forum to gain some knowledge but you dont give them unbiased , balanced information you just spout opinion.

This is probably my last post.
as you are shedding no more light on the subject but thre again maybe I'll hang around.

You call it Tom and Jerry conversation.
but you havent answered convincingly any one of my points.

oops thats not true you got your sums right on your 10 by 10 mathematical downline. Which although mathematically true, is a red herring because it supposes that everyone in the world wants to do the business, and as you will have noticed from the figures that for the 30,000 executives doing the business there are 770,0000 + consuming the product, and buying it wholesale. If everyone in the world want to be an exec then your theory would be true but its not. That leaves lots of space, billions in fact, for new execs to get into the business, work hard , provide great service and products, make a difference and earn a great living eventually and live a great lifestyle and have the werewithall to become altruistic, philanthropic and really make a difference.

Apparently, 85 million food packages that contain a 30 day supply of food containing all the nutrients and vitamins to combat malnutrition in children have been donated by the distributors and execs at Nuskin to malnourished children all over the world. The donated food is distributed by the "Feed the children" organisation.

you'll probably say that is wrong as well and label it a scam.

So really John Do some real research not just go to some anti mlm zealots for their skewed views.

really do your own and then come bak to me and prove, really prove that its a scam.

As someone once mentioned would you learn how to play golf from someone who has only ever lifted a golf club but never swung it , would you learn to swim from someone whos never been in the water and if they had only put a toe in. I don't think so

I've enjoyed our tom and Jerrying as you call it . it could have been a really interesting discussion if you had been willing to set aside your opinions, been truly Skeptical, and joined in a search for the bigger truth about MLM. what ever that may have been. but alas its been a John and Jerry conversation.

By the way what is a Horizontal psychologist?

[Legaleagle]

Such passion and enthusiasm... for selling dodgy overpriced dietary supplements door to door... step into the light...:cheesy:

[therealbt]

Such passion and enthusiasm... for selling dodgy overpriced dietary supplements door to door... step into the light...:cheesy:

is that your best response. i think it is you that is in the dark.

oh I forgot about your massive experience in MLM.

you have to step into the water before you can tell someone about the experience of swimming. you havent even got your toe wet

prove your dodgy overpriced statement. if you can. probably cant.

[Admin]

Bryan,

Haven't you got miracle pills or something to sell?

A downline to build?

You're not going to develop that pension fund ranting away all day on a forum where everyone's given up listening to you.

[therealbt]

yep your right,
they've given up cos they lost the argument Surprise Surprise.

Boy your a sad bunch


Still It was nice for me to win the argument
:tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::t ongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::ton gue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongu e::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue: :tongue::tongue:
:tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::t ongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::ton gue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongu e::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue: :tongue::tongue::tongue:

Goodbye

[Cuddles]

e,g, There are getting on for 30,000 in just one company. Aaveraging 18,000 p.a. verified on the accounts of a publicly listed company.

I thought £25k was a poor salary that MLM could beat easily. Now it seems that even the top "executives" get an average of only $18k (although your previous post that calculated it actually said $14k). That's less than 1/3. Even if your numbers were in pounds it seems that MLM pays well under the average wage. And that's only for the minority that are at the top, it ignores the other 770,000 people who aren't making any money. Colour me unimpressed.

[Allo Allo]

This is simply my opinion, and I admit my bias is taken from real life “experience” when I watched how one of my daughters ruined her life in MLM. It takes real grit to “run your own business”. Suggesting to people – most are just ordinary people -they can run their own business in an MLM scheme and make money is not the reality of it.

In reality, to be successful, they have to work extraordinarily HARD and claw their way up by getting good downline. They are encouraged to do this with diligence is a term I see a lot. A lot of people (just ordinary people remember) do not have the kind of grit needed to run their own business – otherwise they would already be doing so - and end up buying the “product” for themselves – but they would save more than the commission they earn and the exorbitant cost of the product simply by shopping at a supermarket or store. And furthermore, they often lose friends or get shunned by people wanting to avoid their “diligence”.

To recruit people with an idea they are running their own business and tell them the cost of the product they are selling is justified through its unique and exclusive nature, makes it not ethical for me.

I cannot do academic arguments about business models, but from a simple “human” aspect I see MLM as a “sting” on ordinary people.

I wish you luck with your MLM adventure – but I hope you see that ideas expressed here in this whole discussion, really HAVE come from an attitude of caring.

M
:knitter:

[Cuddles]

2,421,300,059 Life pak units sold up until a couple of minutes ago
thats nearly 2.5 billion and of course thats in a market that has little demand.
Come on John get your facts straight

information came from
http://www.pharmanex.com/corp/index.shtml

check it out yourself. be skeptical O0

OK, let's get the facts. 2.5 billion units sold. Pharmanex started in 1994. That makes about 200 million per year. Assuming that one packet lasts a month (probably rather conservative, I suspect it is not that long) that makes about 17 million people actually using it. According to their site, Nu Skin Enterprises, Pharmanex's parent company has 800,000 sales reps, but according to Pharmanex's site it is 450,000. I take this to mean that there are 450,000 Pharmanex specific sales reps, since this would seem consistent with the sales figures of the two companies.

That means each sales rep manages, on average, to sell the product to 38 people.

Compare this with a mobile phone salesperson in a shop. They often get paid only commision, so it is similar to MLM but without the recruitment part. As an estimate, they will spend about an hour with a person who is buying a phone, and most of the people who go into a shop will already want to buy one. For an 8 hour day that would mean 40 sales per week. Even if you assume that half the people who actually spend an hour there don't buy anything, it will still only take 2 weeks to equal Pharmanex reps sales. Colour me unimpressed.

[Cuddles]

As a final point I should add that I hadn't actually looked at what Pharmanex sells until today. It is interesting to note that every single actual claim about the pills has the disclaimer

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.
This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

Another very interesting point is that although they use the MLM model and have 450,000 sales reps, it is actually possible to buy the products online without ever seeing anyone. This means that my calculations earlier are not really valid since they assume that every sale was made by a rep. The actual figures for sales by reps will be far lower, making the already pathetic figures even worse.

[Allo Allo]

This is simply my opinion, and I admit my bias is taken from real life “experience” when I watched how one of my daughters ruined her life in MLM. I would like to alter "ruined her life" to "affected her life very negatively at one point". I realised "ruined her life" was emotive and not actually true! She has a very good life - now.

M
:knitter:

[therealbt]

OK, let's get the facts. 2.5 billion units sold. Pharmanex started in 1994. That makes about 200 million per year. Assuming that one packet lasts a month (probably rather conservative, I suspect it is not that long) that makes about 17 million people actually using it. According to their site, Nu Skin Enterprises, Pharmanex's parent company has 800,000 sales reps, but according to Pharmanex's site it is 450,000. I take this to mean that there are 450,000 Pharmanex specific sales reps, since this would seem consistent with the sales figures of the two companies.

That means each sales rep manages, on average, to sell the product to 38 people.

Compare this with a mobile phone salesperson in a shop. They often get paid only commision, so it is similar to MLM but without the recruitment part. As an estimate, they will spend about an hour with a person who is buying a phone, and most of the people who go into a shop will already want to buy one. For an 8 hour day that would mean 40 sales per week. Even if you assume that half the people who actually spend an hour there don't buy anything, it will still only take 2 weeks to equal Pharmanex reps sales. Colour me unimpressed.

wasn't going to respond any more but your so far out with your math caluclation its not true.

biggest mistake is that there are only 30,000 active reps. that changes you sums somewhat and you are forgetting that that one product is only one of more than 30 products.

so your maths dont stand up
plus your missing the point
I mentioned the 2.5 billion in response to a remark that was made by John I believe that it was a market of little demand

in fact the trend forecasters are predicting a 1 trillion dollar market by 2010

[therealbt]

As a final point I should add that I hadn't actually looked at what Pharmanex sells until today. It is interesting to note that every single actual claim about the pills has the disclaimer


Another very interesting point is that although they use the MLM model and have 450,000 sales reps, it is actually possible to buy the products online without ever seeing anyone. This means that my calculations earlier are not really valid since they assume that every sale was made by a rep. The actual figures for sales by reps will be far lower, making the already pathetic figures even worse.

wrong figures its not 450,000 sales reps
A rep is called an executive and there are only 30,000 of them

by law they have to put in a disclaimer as they dont sell medication.


Next

[therealbt]

This is simply my opinion, and I admit my bias is taken from real life “experience” when I watched how one of my daughters ruined her life in MLM. It takes real grit to “run your own business”. Suggesting to people – most are just ordinary people -they can run their own business in an MLM scheme and make money is not the reality of it.

In reality, to be successful, they have to work extraordinarily HARD and claw their way up by getting good downline. They are encouraged to do this with diligence is a term I see a lot. A lot of people (just ordinary people remember) do not have the kind of grit needed to run their own business – otherwise they would already be doing so - and end up buying the “product” for themselves – but they would save more than the commission they earn and the exorbitant cost of the product simply by shopping at a supermarket or store. And furthermore, they often lose friends or get shunned by people wanting to avoid their “diligence”.

To recruit people with an idea they are running their own business and tell them the cost of the product they are selling is justified through its unique and exclusive nature, makes it not ethical for me.

I cannot do academic arguments about business models, but from a simple “human” aspect I see MLM as a “sting” on ordinary people.

I wish you luck with your MLM adventure – but I hope you see that ideas expressed here in this whole discussion, really HAVE come from an attitude of caring.

M
:knitter:

It is nice to meet someone on the forum that has some grace.

sounds like the expeerience you are talking about was with a company that doesnt have a brilliant mlm reputation..
However i have to say that would not appear to be the case for all MLM companies.
During my due diligence exercise it would appear that there are some very good top MLM companies out there.

and it would appear that MLM as a marketing method is here to stay.

So I would say to your daughter, who I'm sorry to hear had a bad experience that she might want to get back into the MLM marketplace. her judgement was right the first time around about the method. She just didnt get the company right by the looks of it. So she could trust her gut. do some heavy duty due diligence and then select an MLM company thats in the top rankings, make sure the companys' philosophy and products align with her values, Learn the business, work hard with a laser focus, learn learn and learn some more then teach teach and teach some more. Stick with it and who knows what the possibilities are.

The other possibility is to stay in the 95% who by the time they are 65 are either dead or dead broke, and have to keep working to make ends meet.
that is a statistical fact.

Or you can join the 5% who have all the wealth and see if you can emulate what they do.

I trust you've got a good pension plan but will it keep you in the lifestyle you really want?
thats a question you'll have to answer for yourself

Dont let the skeptics here (although I understand some of their fears) immobilise you.

It wont serve you in the long haul.

Life is all about risk, but also about making sure the odds lie in your favour.

Dont expect to trailblaze a new venture without tripping up a few times. The winners are the ones who get up dust themselves down and carry on.

The losers are the ones who trip up and stay laid down bacause theyve given up hope or arent strong enough of character or dont have a big enough dream and vision to make it to the top.

If you had a choice to stay in the 95% or join the 5% what would it be?

I know where I'm going.

I'm sure you and your daughter have the courage to blaze the trail and to honour who you really are , and so do all the other poor folks on this forum even though they dont have an inkling of their greatness, and probably far less the tools to change things.

it would seem the premise of this forum is to dampen someones dreams and settle for the status quo.

thank god da vinci, louis pasteur, einstein and Mr Bell didnt feel that way or we wouldn't be able to converse this way.

hope you can find a way to being a warrior

Again it was a pleasure to sense your grace

Bryan

[Admin]

Dont let the skeptics here (although I understand some of their fears) immobilise you.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Bryan, you still here?

I always enjoy this quip. Skeptics are too afraid to face reality. ;D

Bryan, you're simply seeing things how you want to see them. It's blatantly obvious to anyone else reading.

You haven't answered the real core question here: how can an exponentially expanding sales force sell at a profit to a static, low-demand market?

The answer: it can't. ;)

And I love the way you just reinterpret 770,000 sales people and turn them into customers.

If we look at the total sales force the figures look really bad (just as I predicted) but if you ignore 96% of the sales force and apply the commission payments to the other 4% then the figures look a little more like you want them to look like. ;)

Bryan - it's called: self-delusion.

[Allo Allo]

It is nice to meet someone on the forum that has some grace.......

it would seem the premise of this forum is to dampen someones dreams and settle for the status quo........

hope you can find a way to being a warrior......

Again it was a pleasure to sense your grace

Bryan
Thank you for this post.

I have to say that I am here a second time around – my first time was most stressfull! I had freelanced as a journalist and written several (unimportant) books which I began to see was a grave responsibility if they were, in fact, a load of crap! I came here to challenge my own thinking – and I got spun out into REALLY investigating everything I have written and to thinking about how I could have affected other people’s lives. This has been painful to say the least! I left this forum and spent an intense time learning stimulating “new” stuff.

None of this is important in any way – but I have my tiny band of “admirers”. This last point is most important. Because moving in circles where your own thoughts are never challenged is dangerous. It leads to self-confirmation – and it really is a shock when you find not everyone agrees with you. You can take it personally and get hurt or aggressive, or you can go away (like I did) and investigate the ideas of those who DON’T agree with you.

I used to come back over and over again to this forum and just “lurk”. One day I found it had been removed from the Internet and I felt I had lost a friend! The Forum has been the catalyst to a “new” way of thinking for me that has been exhilarating. When John put it up again, I came “back” for a second time. Now I don’t know the people here, never met one of them – but in a way, they are my “thinking” acquaintances. My own thought processes are still “under construction” – so I’m insecure myself. I don’t agree with everything said here, and I still get pounded – but the basic motive for UK Skeptics being on the Internet is worthy.

I have had my career both in working for others and in working for myself. I am supposed to be retired. I’m not wealthy in money but I’m rich in other ways – and those other ways can’t be bought with money. And neither can happiness.

M

[Legaleagle]

OK, here's a question.

If you really passionately want to sell dietary supplements, or whatever, to members of the public and you think there is good money to be made from it and a satisfying and rewarding career, why go down the MLM route?

Why not become a rep for one or more of the pharamceutical companies. Or you could set up your own agency to supply such products. That way you would really be in control of your own business, you would get to keep all the commissions and you wouldn't have to offer the goods at such high prices because there were 10 other people up the chain from you creaming off their percentage before the money got to you. You wouldn't be restricted to selling only a few products from the same source Company. You wouldn't have thrown your lot in with a Company which has in the past suffered many blows to it's reputation with consequent implications for potenatial sales.

If you really use your imagination surely you can come up with a much better business model than simply signing up to an MLM with Pharmanex.

[therealbt]

and how much do you think it would cost you to set that up????

£12.50 I dont think so

risk of failure about 85% if you take the standard risk of starting a business in the UK in the first 5 years.

not such a brilliant model i'd say.

and John you said:
how can an exponentially expanding sales force sell at a profit to a static, low-demand market?

put it into the context of a high demand consumable and you have your answer.

MLM doesnt operate in static low demand markets as a general rule.
can you point me to one that does?

[therealbt]

I'm still here because I find your lack of proof and baseless assertions curiously interesting and intriguing.

you didnt say what a horizontal psychologist is John

[therealbt]

John you said

And I love the way you just reinterpret 770,000 sales people and turn them into customers.
-----

Your showing yourself up again and ruining any credence you had.

the 770,000 are distributors.
These are people who are primarily product users who have become distributors at a cost of "I think" 12.50 in order to be able to purchase the products at wholesale. Smart move I reckon.

the Sales people are the 30,000 execs.

Did you understand that ?

I think that debunks your assertions again;D

[Matt]

Hi Bryan,

Reading this I see that you're here as part a a due dilligence exercise considering a business opportunity involving Multi Level Marketing.

Are you considering starting an MLM company or joining an existing one?

Or to put it in what we might presume to be John's words are you intending to be a scammer or a scammee? ;)

It is clear from John's description of some MLM schemes that I hope we would all agree are scams, that someone is making money. Take for example those e-mails "make $$$ working from home" look into them and you'll find that they're only one step removed from illegal chainletters. The idea being that you recruit ten people who each recruit ten people and each buy a pamphlet from someone "up stream" telling them how to do so. They claim that because these people are buying a product that it's not an illegal pyramid, chain letter get rich quick scheme. Such claims are contestable.

I'm sure we don't need anyone to explain why there are laws against such schemes or why the vast profits imagined are typically only realised by the founders of the scheme.

Clearly there will have to be subtle variations between each possible scheme. Such variations will include how the founders intend the scheme to be marketed to new players and also how the players actually market the scheme to potential recruits. Some will clearly violate the law, others will appear to be sold using he same faulty logic as the almost ponzi like chain letter schemes of old and yet still manage to observe the letter of the law. Some may even be fully reputable companies with reputable products whose business methods bear a passing resemblance to a pyramid scheme.

Some will be fully moral and legal, others may be as immoral as any ponzi scheme but manage to squeeze through loopholes in the law. There's plenty of grey area. Some may be more moral but also more vulnerable to prosecution. Some may be blantantly immorral and blatantly illegal but operated from behind aliases and front companies. Even large schemes can try to keep one step in front of often complex fraud cases by issung false accounts, reopening using different names and identities or switching their registered offices from one jurisdiction to another. Some may be fully reputable at head office but inadvertantly allow the immoral actions and claims of recruiters to be profitable to them.

If you are planning to start such a scheme then there's no argument that you have a very good chance of making money, even getting in early and working hard is a reasonable option. It is the get rich quick claims of some recruiters that many of use here find dishonest and immoral.

As John has said he has examined a number of schemes and found Avon to be "the most reputable" There is clearly nothing in John's mind that makes using the of theory Multi Level Marketing, lead automatically to a scam as he is willing to describe this one company, Avon, that uses a such model as relatively reputable.

However it cannot be denied that the MLM model offers a great potential advantage to those who would wish to disguise a pyramid scam from the consumer or from the law. Such scams have been revealed and prosecuted e.g. Fund America where it was revealed that 90% of the founder's revenues was generated from "distributorships" rather than product. Thus it was argued that this MLM was a pyramid scheme. It may not even have been the founders intention to operate a pyramid scam it's just adoption of the MLM model allowed what to the company is a highly profitable revenue scheme to evolve within the company.

So the undeniable fact is that MLM can act as a cover for a pyramid scheme. Observations show that MLM often does act as a cover for a pyramid scheme. Therefore when encountering a company using MLM it is reasonable to suspect that the MLM is covering for a business model where the profits are generated from an exponentially growing membership or from the margins added to product sales.

A number of sensible ways exist of doing this.

The first is to examine the company's own disclosed figures. What percentage of it's takings came from new memberships? how much does each distributer make from the model? As you have shown, Bryan, the latter may not be entirely fair. If the majority of members are not trying to build a business out of their membership but merely access "member rates" for their product then this may skew the figures. However it is still and exercise worth doing to put often exaggerated or misrepresented claims into perspective.

Another is to view the other reasons that MLM might be being employed if not to disguise a pyramid scheme. Bryan, you have suggested one such reason. You have suggested that multi level distribution schemes cut costs. Also advertising and other costs might be reduced. Thus resutling in savings for the end consumer. This can be simply tested if the equivalent products are available through other channels. If the product is cheaper though MLM channels then MLM channels work. This rarely appears to be the case. As mentioned before, AVON appear to be the reputable end of the spectrum and in shopping around for Sun Cream before last year's holiday AVON have a special offer that made our local Avon lady the best supplier around. I'm quite willing to accept that this may be partially down to their business methods and the MLM component in particular. I'm therefore not left with the default conclusion that AVON is using MLM to disguise a pyramid scheme. In the case of Kleeneze I see products in their catalog, for sale at stupid money, sometimes five times what exactly the same products can be bought for in town. However there's one or two loss leaders which my beloved takes advantage of and occasionally products that just don't seem to be available elsewhere.

In the case of nutritional supplements the argument then becomes are those available from pharmanex exactly equivalent to those available at Holland and Barret. The question of whether the claims of certain health food retailers are justified is another issue. Suffice to say that may people of a critical bent are aware of many instances where such claims have prove to be inflated exaggerations or downright lies. For similar reasons won't find many sceptics buying "pro-youthinol age reducing nutricreame with pseudo-bedazzle-aze 42" when a quality moisturizing cream is on the next shelf for a fraction of the price.

However if, to you, the pharmanex products are unique and only available from pharmanex then you will not be able to answer the question of whether there is a purpose to pharmanex employing MLM through this method.

I'm dubious I watch some TV adverts and see the phrase "not-available-in-any-shops" rarely seems to be associated with high quality demand items. Does it give you a warm fuzzy "I want one of those" feeling when you hear it? Not me. I'd be pleased and surprised if the pharmanex product line lived up to all the claims made about it. Just a thought - not an intrinsic part of the argument - if that's where you want to take the argument I suggest we set up a new thread.

Back to the economic comparison of agreed like with like..

As always there examples where the product would be cheaper in the shops and allegedly fewer examples where the product is cheaper through MLM.

I'm not convinced that adding middle men into the chain can ever make a product cheaper. The growth model of recent years appears to be direct selling via the Internet on the basis that it cuts out middle men.

Therefore whilst I'm absolutely convinced that MLM is sometimes a pyramid scheme I'm not convinced that it is often operated to reduce costs. In the instances where costs for a particular product are lower through a particular MLM scheme other reasons are possible. E.g. it is a loss leader, it is of lower quality, end of line discounts etc.

Can you point to any hard figures that demonstrate a comparison between a more orthodox distribution system and MLM?

Failing that can you suggest a reasonable purpose for MLM other than disguising a pyramid scheme?

I can suggest a few.

For use within the initial growth phase of a respectable business?
Where passing the product through multiple hands adds value?
Where orthodox methods of distribution are denied e.g. Marijuana dealing.

[Admin]

Or to put it in what we might presume to be John's words are you intending to be a scammer or a scammee? ;)

Actually, people who join MLMs (unwittingly) become both perpetrator and victim of the scam at the same time.

That's because they've become involved in something they don't really understand.


As John has said he has examined a number of schemes and found Avon to be "the most reputable"

I didn't say that!!

With something like Avon I would think that moving products would be a little easier than with some others; but if they're using the MLM model to sell their products then no-one's going to get rich as an Avon rep.

Let’s use the ‘Avon Lady’ as an example, however:

If someone sets up as an Avon rep in an area then she will have a certain amount of customers to target and she will get sales from those customers. That’s how it’s possible to make pin-money through MLM.

But, if she sticks to the ‘MLM proven plan’ and starts developing her downline, lets say 6 people per level, then by signing those six extra reps she now has six other people competing for the same number of potential customers. The demand remains static but the number of sellers increases. Then if those six also do the same, before long there could be 43 reps aiming to sell to the same customers, and if they start signing others…. And so on.

The amount of reps who can sell to these potential customers will depend on how much demand there is and the size of the target audience but the key point is that demand will be static. It could be argued that these new reps could simply target a bigger area but there may well be existing reps in those other areas and they could also be expanding into your area.

This is why MLM is fatally flawed as a business model from the reps’ point of view. It is simply not possible to keep adding more and more sales reps to sell to a static market. The more people there are selling to the same audience the less profit each one can make (!) and as new reps are always being added to the sales force it ensures that each rep’s potential for earning income is going to be severely limited.

This is the reason that the failure rate in MLM is astronomically high. People join after falling for the propaganda but quickly realise that they can’t make money selling the products and so quit after learning a harsh, and sometimes costly, lesson.

If a conventional company (i.e. one that pays wages rather than commission) added to its sales force in this manner it would go bust very quickly. So why do MLM companies use it?

Well, they don’t pay wages, only commission on sales; and the reps pay to join the MLM scheme. This means that the company is always making money whether the reps sell products or not. It’s a win-win situation for the company. They don’t care if a rep pays to join and then never sells a thing, the company is still quids in.

This problem of saturating the market with sales people is actually inherent in the MLM model. That’s why it doesn’t matter who the company is or what the product is, MLM is always going to be nothing more then a pipe dream. No-one’s getting rich in MLM other than those running it.

That’s why I call it a scam. It’s not just the fact that it appeals to people’s desires but fails to deliver – it’s because the business model cannot deliver by design.

[Matt]

Actually, people who join MLMs (unwittingly) become both perpetrator and victim of the scam at the same time.

That's because they've become involved in something they don't really understand.


Well yes I can see what you're saying. Technically I suppose perpetrator is an adequate description and acknowledge that you add "unwittingly" however since they're typically not proffiting from their facilitation of the scheme I think scammee is equally accurate and perhaps more appropriate in such cases.



I didn't say that!!


Whoops Mea Culpa

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=659111&highlight=avon#post659111

'Twas this post I was thinking of, and working from memory I'd thought that it was you that posted it. Please accept my appologies. I assure you that this missattribution wasn't deliberate.



With something like Avon I would think that moving products would be a little easier than with some others; but if they're using the MLM model to sell their products then no-one's going to get rich as an Avon rep.

<... snip ...>

That’s why I call it a scam. It’s not just the fact that it appeals to people’s desires but fails to deliver – it’s because the business model cannot deliver by design.

I was assuming that the reason that Avon was considered (by some) as more reputable, would be that whilst their marketting and distribution might follow the MLM model, they didn't push the recruitment of new distributors either in their promotional literature, genrally observed practive or their compensation scheme. If they operate as an MLM but tell potential distibutors "Well you can if you like, there's no startup cost but you'll never make a lot of money as we saturated the marketplace decades ago" then they're being honest and above board. If the financial incetives encourage this hoest approach then the company is being moral.

Looking closer at what the reference actually says (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/avon.htm) it seems that the recent feedback is not quite so rosy.

However for the purposes of my argument the theoretical possibility of such a company serves as sufficient illustration to contrast against the typical manifestation of MLM.

[Legaleagle]

and how much do you think it would cost you to set that up????

I don't know, why don't you tell me hotshot, you're the one doing the due diligence, or hadn't you explored that possibility?


£12.50 I dont think so

What exactly do you get for your £12.50?


risk of failure about 85% if you take the standard risk of starting a business in the UK in the first 5 years.

If I take that figure as accurate (and I am not sure that it is) it's still 14.99% less risky than a Pharamanex MLM.


not such a brilliant model i'd say.

Well you would say that wouldn't you, Mr Due DiligenceO0

[therealbt]

I don't know, why don't you tell me hotshot, you're the one doing the due diligence, or hadn't you explored that possibility?



What exactly do you get for your £12.50?



If I take that figure as accurate (and I am not sure that it is) it's still 14.99% less risky than a Pharamanex MLM.



Well you would say that wouldn't you, Mr Due DiligenceO0

well mr damp squib legal eagle.

dont know what you get for the 12.50 but it will be an intro kit of some sort. I'm sure. I havent bought one so havent the experience to share with you.

and where do you get you 14.99 %?

I assume your saying that 99.9% of people who join an MLM company to do business fail. OK I can accept that assumption as a possibility.
Now give me some HARD evidence real proof that that is the case in all MLM companies.

[therealbt]

Matt,
at least your respons was, to a degree,considered. but when you throw words around like scammer and scammee you lose some credibility.

A Scam is a fraud as I understand it.
and there may be some MLM companies out there perpetrating a fraud, I havent found any yet, but nevertheless its possible.

but to say that MLM is a scam would suggest that all MLM companies are perpetrating a fraud. I doubt that that is true. However, unless all MLM companies are perpetrating a fraud, you cannot attach the word scam to MLM. If you do you are being fraudulent yourself and taking part in some scamming.

In all of the comments that have been made about MLM I havent yet heard one that stands up to examination and covers the complete spectrum of MLM.
So I would suggest that MLM is no a Scam and if it is then prove it.

And tell me how a company that falls under your heading of a scam:
turns over +/- $1.2 billion in sales.
pays commissions to independent distributors / execs (30,00) of $550 million.
been existence for 20 odd years.
have a 5A1 dun and bradstreet rating (better than any bank I believe)
are listed on the NYSE so is accountable to investors and shareholders.
Won the American Business award for the most innovative product ( Biophotonic Scanner)in 2005. this is the same as the Oscars in the business world apparently.

I have no problem with you saying that a specific company is a scam if that is the case. but I do have a challenge with you labelling a marketing methodology as a scam, which it clearly is not.

Its even been taught at business school. and Harvard professors dont teach fraud. they would be most unhappy to hear that you said they did.

Matt I trust you will examine what I have said in a considered manner.

hope your not a scammer too



.

[Matt]

Matt,
at least your respons was, to a degree,considered. but when you throw words around like scammer and scammee you lose some credibility.

Please reconsider what I wrote. Where I initially wrote "scammer" and "scammee" its was acknowledging someone else's point of view. Where I further used the word scam it was in relation to scenarios real or hypothesized that were immoral, illegal or both.



A Scam is a fraud as I understand it.

Oh, well I didn't mean to explicitly limit my description to fraud but to any immoral or illegal money making activity. I think scam is an adequate word but if you have another suggestion I'm open. What they call a pyramid scam is clearly to me a scam. What word would you prefer I use? I can't think of another so for the time being I continue to describe schemes that primarily generate money from exponential recruitment as scams.


and there may be some MLM companies out there perpetrating a fraud, I havent found any yet, but nevertheless its possible.

You haven't found any? When I stated that there are some companies operating illegal pyramid scams and attempting to use MLM as a legal defense against accusations of operating a pyramid scam I thought to myself. "This is a sceptical website. I can't jsut make assertions and not expect them to be challenged." It took about two minutes to find the example of Fund America. Once agains I should ask you to reconsider what I wrote as you must have missed this example. There is no doubt that there have been MLM companies perpetrating fraud. The single example I have already given is sufficient proof of this statement. However fraud is not the object of my post but scams. Once more, under my intended usage of the word scam, a scam is a scam if it is immoral or deceptive - this carries a lower burden of proof than the legal issues.



but to say that MLM is a scam would suggest that all MLM companies are perpetrating a fraud.

I didn't say MLM was a scam I said that there are a type of scam that MLM is well suited to disguising.


I doubt that that is true. However, unless all MLM companies are perpetrating a fraud, you cannot attach the word scam to MLM.

Sorry not with you. Can you explain what you mean and how it is relevant to what I wrote.


If you do you are being fraudulent yourself and taking part in some scamming.

Well I don't think I've misrepresented any facts, (fraudulent) and I don't think I've intentionally profited from illegal or immoral actions (scam)


In all of the comments that have been made about MLM I havent yet heard one that stands up to examination and covers the complete spectrum of MLM.

Well to be fair you haven't explained what objection you have to the points I've made about MLM expect for taking umbrage at the fact that I've noted that some pyramid scams use MLM as a cover. Obviously you don't think my treatment stands up to examination. I'd be grateful if you explained why.


So I would suggest that MLM is no a Scam and if it is then prove it.

No MLM is not intrinsically a scam, I have pointed out that it is possible for a company to run MLM and not be a scam, MLM can however be a cover for a scam.


And tell me how a company that falls under your heading of a scam: turns over +/- $1.2 billion in sales. pays commissions to independent distributors / execs (30,00) of $550 million.

Scams make money too. There's no logical reason why an enterprise that nets a vast amount of money shouldn't be one fairly described as a scam.

Nigerian 419 Advance fee fraud netted $3.8 billion in 2006 source (http://www.ultrascan.nl/assets/applets/2006_Stats_on_419_AFF_jan_23_2007_1.pdf)

If you want me to accept this as relevant you'll have to explain why a scam should stop after netting a specific amount of money - especially when the scam might comply with the letter of the law.



been existence for 20 odd years.

Again there's no logical reason why a scam shouldn't be long lived. Again Nigerian 419 advance fee fraud has outlived pharmanex. same source (http://www.ultrascan.nl/assets/applets/2006_Stats_on_419_AFF_jan_23_2007_1.pdf) Enron was nearly as old when its fraudulent activities came to light.

If you want me to accept this as relevant you'll have to explain why a scam should stop after lasting a specific amount of time - especially when the scam might comply with the letter of the law.


a 5A1 dun and bradstreet rating (better than any bank I believe)

Again I don't see what relevance a Dunn & Bradstreet rating has to do with this issue. Dunn & Bradsteet tell me that if Pharmanex wish to open an account with my business then there's no business reason to refuse them goods on credit they have assets in excess of &#163;35 million (the 5A part of the rating) and that they are not considered likely to fail any time soon (the risk part of the rating:1) The morality of their business practices may be an issue to me but it is certainly not to Dun & Bradstreet.
If you want me to accept this as relevant you'll have to explain why a scam should stop after achieving a specific credit rating - especially when the scam might comply with the letter of the law.


are listed on the NYSE so is accountable to investors and shareholders.

Enron and Worldcom were both publicly traded. Microsoft was found guilty of antitrust violations, it found it profitable to pay the fine and continue trading illegally. All accountable to shareholders. The morality of their business practices may be of interest to me but not to the fund managers who invest in the companies. They're only interested in return on investment.

If you want me to accept this as relevant you'll have to explain why a scam should stop after floating on the stock market - especially when the scam might comply with the letter of the law.


Won the American Business award for the most innovative product ( Biophotonic Scanner)in 2005. this is the same as the Oscars in the business world apparently.

Well clearly you and I have differing opinions over the value of firstly a Stevie award (awards in over 100 categories to self nominated companies since 2002) and secondly of an Oscar (used to mean something now it appears the members of the academy based their votes on box office returns rather then actually viewing all the films nominated)

However that's all bye the bye. I can see no logical link between being a scam and not winning an award. There were three nominees in that category and I suspect that the panel of judges spoent very little time examining all the nominees in all 100 categories. I'd say they had a one in three chance of winning whether they're operating a pyramid scam disguised as MLM or a reputable business that happens to utilize MLM

If you want me to accept this as relevant you'll have to explain why a scam should stop after winning an award however prestigious - especially when the scam might comply with the letter of the law.


I have no problem with you saying that a specific company is a scam if that is the case.

well that's good.


but I do have a challenge with you labelling a marketing methodology as a scam, which it clearly is not.

I painstakingly didn't do this. I said that it may be used to serve the purpose of legalizing or disguising pyramid scams and has been observed to be used in this manner. I also acknowledged that it was theoretically possible that it served other purposes.


Its even been taught at business school. and Harvard professors dont teach fraud. they would be most unhappy to hear that you said they did.

Well there's three points here.

One that I'm saying that MLM is intrinsically fraudulent. If I may reiterate - I'm not saying that.

Second that MLM is taught at business school including Harvard. I can see no mention of it on the Harvard curriculum online.

Third that where MLM might be discussed in business schools it is necessarily being promoted. Clearly that doesn't follow.

I can confirm that Harvard Business Professor Carolyn Hotchkiss does indeed teach fraud as part of her "Legal Aspects of Management (http://www.hbs.edu/mba/academics/coursecatalog/1540.html)" course. In fact any business school that didn't mention fraud would be rather negligent. Of course promoting fraud would be another matter.

Incidental though the matter is (as I never suggested that all MLM is de facto fraud, or even a scam) it raised my curiosity. Having examined the Harvard Business School curriculum (http://www.hbs.edu/mba/academics/required.html) I can find no supporting evidence to your claim so if you will excuse my curiosity, may I ask for your source?




Matt I trust you will examine what I have said in a considered manner.

hope your not a scammer too



.

I believe I have addressed what you've said in a considered manner.

I'm disappointed though. I asked you a couple of specific questions:

1) What is the opportunity you're doing due diligence on - starting a brand new enterprise or joining and existing scheme?

2) What purposes do you think MLM may serve if not as a cover for a pyramid scheme?

You answered neither.

I made a number of point which you should feel free to discuss. Instead you focus on alleging that Multi Level Marketing is not intrinsically a scam and suggesting that I disagree with this point. I clearly don't.

The only thing that I have called a scam (in my own words rather than what I jokingly, and with a smiley, implied John might say) is the pyramid scam. This is not intrinsically deceptive but it is a scam and in it's raw form is illegal.

To me multilevel marketing is a tool which can serve a number of possible purposes. The purpose for which it is most apt, i.e. which generates the most money for the initiator, I have suggested may be that of disguising a pyramid scam from the victims and from the law.

I have further suggested that this being the case that the presence of MLM might be a good indicator of the presence of a Pyramid Scam.

This would not be the case if MLM offered some other common purpose to which it was more apt. It is towards this area I would like to direct the discussion.

Lets take an analogy. Lock picks serve the purpose of opening locks without a key. There are three (at least) classification of people who use lock picks depending on the purpose from which they wish to open locks.

1) Thieves
2) Locksmiths
3) Hobbyists

I am no thief or locksmith but I have made and used a set of lock picks. I am a hobbyist. However I understand that being found in possession of lock picks would be incriminating.

The frequency with which possession of lock picks might be associated with thievery is great enough for certain presumptions to be somewhat justifiable.

In such a situation the onus would be upon me to offer an explanation for my possession of lock picks other than thievery. Otherwise I might be charged with "going equipped"

You have suggested in previous posts that it is possible that a company uses MLM not as a disguise for a pyramid scam but instead to cut costs. I have suggested that when examining many MLM companies their costs are higher.

You have left this challenge un-adressed. I invite you to rectify that.

[Cuddles]

wasn't going to respond any more but your so far out with your math caluclation its not true.

biggest mistake is that there are only 30,000 active reps. that changes you sums somewhat and you are forgetting that that one product is only one of more than 30 products.

so your maths dont stand up
plus your missing the point
I mentioned the 2.5 billion in response to a remark that was made by John I believe that it was a market of little demand

in fact the trend forecasters are predicting a 1 trillion dollar market by 2010


wrong figures its not 450,000 sales reps
A rep is called an executive and there are only 30,000 of them

by law they have to put in a disclaimer as they dont sell medication.


Next

The trouble you have here is that you are just plain wrong. These are the figures from their own website. No matter how much you deny this, they state themselves that there are 450,000 salesmen. The fact that there are many products is irrelevant, the 2.5 billion specifically states that this is the sales of LifePak packets. In any case, the more products there are, the worse that makes it since it means that the market for any one product is much smaller.

Please, before making any more ridiculous claims about this, at least try actually reading the company's own website.

[Cuddles]

Just for reference:

http://www.pharmanex.com/corp/opportunity/index.shtml

a network of over 450,000 independent sales representatives

http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/business-opportunity/

our network of approximately 800,000 active independent distributors

[Legaleagle]

well mr damp squib legal eagle.

dont know what you get for the 12.50 but it will be an intro kit of some sort. I'm sure. I havent bought one so havent the experience to share with you.Don't you think you ought to find out as part of your Due Diligence;)



and where do you get you 14.99 %?

I assume your saying that 99.9% of people who join an MLM company to do business fail. OK I can accept that assumption as a possibility.
Now give me some HARD evidence real proof that that is the case in all MLM companies.One from whistleblower Dr John Taylor (I know you just love him;))


...available data lead to the conclusion that the loss rate approximates 99.9%...One from "one of the nation's leading network marketing experts" Oren Glazer whose website is real-mlm-secrets.com



...discover what separates the MLM elite from the 99.4% that fail...

[therealbt]

The trouble you have here is that you are just plain wrong. These are the figures from their own website. No matter how much you deny this, they state themselves that there are 450,000 salesmen. The fact that there are many products is irrelevant, the 2.5 billion specifically states that this is the sales of LifePak packets. In any case, the more products there are, the worse that makes it since it means that the market for any one product is much smaller.

Please, before making any more ridiculous claims about this, at least try actually reading the company's own website.

where do rhey say "450,000 salesmen"? sHOW ME

[therealbt]

Just for reference:

http://www.pharmanex.com/corp/opportunity/index.shtml


http://www.nuskinenterprises.com/en/business-opportunity/

i think you might find that in both cases they are talking about distributors.
and these are people who are using the product but are not necessarily involved in building a downline. But I will admit it is sometimes confusing when the same language is not used consistently. but go and take a look at their published annual reports and you will get a good idea.

[Cuddles]

i think you might find that in both cases they are talking about distributors.
and these are people who are using the product but are not necessarily involved in building a downline. But I will admit it is sometimes confusing when the same language is not used consistently. but go and take a look at their published annual reports and you will get a good idea.

Which part of "450,000 sales representatives" do you find hard to understand?

[MallorcaMan]

Hello - I am new to the forum. I am 50 years old and have come to live in Mallorca from my native England.

I am confused by what I hear. My business follows the "traditional model". I buy (at some considerable outlay) stock, I find and sell to customers, I ring them up (or call on them) for orders, I process the paperwork, I deliver products and I invoice and get paid (and hope their cheques are good!). After that I buy more stock and continue the cycle. To grow I have to employ, train, pay and cross my fingers with new staff. That's the "traditional model" - right?

My wife has just joined an MLM scheme that happens to supply products she already buys and distributes under the "traditional model". The big differences appear to me to be she holds very little stock (the cost of her own use products etc). She doesn't have minimum order quantities. She still finds and sells to customers, however the customers order and pay for the products directly to the "Upline" distributor/supplier/manufacturer. They do all the paperwork, organise delivery, invoice and collect the money and take any credit risk.

Now my average Gross Margin is around 20% higher than my wifes new MLM Gross Margin but the fix costs that I have (warehouse, staff, electric, vehicles etc etc etc) are higher than my wifes by (in my case) around 200,000€ per annum.

Without going into the fine details of our two business plans, it appears to me that with no financial risk whatsoever my wife is able to take a Net Profit from her business equivalent to mine by simply servicing her current customers and over about 24 months finding 2 downline Distributors like herself with similar personal sales volumes - even if they don't "recruit" a single downline person.

My conclusion is that our particular circumstances suggest that this MLM model produces 1. No significant financial risk. 2. The same money in our pockets as my business with no staff issues. 3. Fully inclusive tried and tested corporate services. 4. The potential to grow further IF we think that's right for us.

We don't need an unlimited downline. We could never see a saturated market place in our lifetimes and we are potentially going to reduce our stress levels dramatically.

What's wrong with appropriate people, fully researching a suitable MLM opportunity, buying from them at lower margins than could be achieved but living a healthier, happier life for all that?

This will be our first experience of MLM - maybe in 2 years time we will join the other people on this site who seem terminally damaged by the experience - I will keep you posted!

My Best Regards to all,
Paul

[Legaleagle]

to reduce our stress levels dramatically.


What's wrong with appropriate people, fully researching a suitable MLM opportunity, buying from them at lower margins than could be achieved but living a healthier, happier life for all that?

I was starting to take your post seriously until I saw these bits.

Is the scenario you have outlined actually genuine or are you just another MLM troll trying to disrupt the forum with red herrings?

Do you only support MLM in the circumstances that you describe in your post or do you consider it to be a genuine money making opportunity to the avaerage man or woman on the street with little or no business acumen?

Putting aside your own personal circumstances for the moment, how do you feel about the way MLM participation is sold to the average person on the street, and does your view of these recriutment tactics colour your judgement as to whether your wife should become involved with such an organisation?

[Admin]

Well MallorcaMan,

If your wife has an existing client base and is merely swapping her usual wholesaler for an MLM company then she will no doubt make money in the same way as before.

The problem is now though, that some of her customers may also see the 'opportunity' and even if they are in her downline they could end up taking custom away from her business in the long run. Especially once they start sponsoring more and more people into an ever-expanding sales force.

Your downline is your competition - no matter what the MLMers say.

So yes, keep us informed. It will be interesting to see what the situation is like in 6 to 12 months time.

Oh, and don't think you have any control over your 'downline'. There are no controls in MLM and once the sponsoring begins it takes on a life of its own; like a chain reaction. Once it starts you can't stop it...

Good luck - I think you're going to need it.

[MallorcaMan]

I think it is a shame that your own experiences have made you so cynical Legaleagle. My post was 100% genuine and time might tell me that some of my best guesses are erroneous - but we are going to give it a try anyway.

Trying to answer in a civil manner whatever your style will (I hope) always be mine. I don't know what a "MLM Troll" might be or what the "Red Herrings" are that you see. All I have done is tell you my story to date and how I came to the conclusion that we would give it a go.

Plainly therefore I support MLM in the circumstances I have described and if I knew how to create a "blog" I would be happy to try to let you know of our ups and downs as we go down this path. As it is I don't know how to do that so from time to time I will post my feelings on here.

I actually can't really give strong opinions on how MLM is sold to the average person on the street and I don't really know if we have any more business acumen than this average person. I have never really had it "sold" to me - we volunteered for this particular MLM - so I haven't got a view of their recruitment tactics. I do however know some ladies who were suckered into something called "Women Empowering Women" a few years back which was plainly a ridiculous pyramid selling thing that involved handing over cash for the right to ask other women to hand it to you. I could not understand how any sane person could join that scheme and think the people who did will be parted from their money by something if not MLM!!

John, I appreciate more your advice and comments. However I am perplexed and worried. The first point is correct - she will swap margins from supplier A for margins from supplier B. And you are right again (we think) that some of those clients will break away and become her downline - in fact we plan to gently encourage (or at least not discourage) this. The belief being that (say) 12% of 3X is better than 30% of X.

My worry from your post is that you feel we don't "have any control of our downline". The MLM we are joining doesn't seem to allow downlines to be moved from sponsor to sponsor. Also there seems an awful lot of transparent reporting going on about the downline. Our sponsor we've known for 3 years (and she has been in the same structure for 11 years) and I don't at the moment believe she is misleading us when she says this hasn't happened in her experience. Also I have Googled all over to find negative comments and haven't found this mentioned. I guess we will have to wait and see and rely on that luck you wish us!!

I will try to keep you all honestly informed on this thread, from time to time.

Paul

[Admin]

And you are right again (we think) that some of those clients will break away and become her downline - in fact we plan to gently encourage (or at least not discourage) this.

You have no control over your downline. Once the people sponsoring more people who sponsor more people means you all make more money delusion kicks in it's out of your hands and you have no way of knowing, and certainly not controlling, what happens.

Your downline are not answerable to you in any way and if they go on a recruitment drive then there's nothing you can do to stop them. All the while they could be taking precious business away from you in return for a tiny percentage of commission.

I always say to people that MLM is basically a scam and if they want to give it a try that they shouldn’t ‘invest’ in it any more than they can afford to lose.

You’re taking a gamble with your business here as far as I can see – as a businessman myself, I certainly wouldn’t take the gamble that you’re taking.

[MallorcaMan]

John, I think you have got a hang up about MLM that doesn't reflect the fact that all business structures have some MLM about them. My standard business certainly does.
It's where you draw the line - i.e. what is an MLM if all MLMs are inherently bad and flawed in principle.
I don't think any contributor to this forum would disagree that there are awful business structures both labelled MLM and labelled "traditional".
I expect some of your more radical thinkers will have very different views but can I ask your interpretation of models such as Burger King, Amtrak (not Amway!!), The Traditional Village Post Office and Grattons (or any other) Mail Order Catalogue? Are any or all of these MLMs?

[Admin]

Are any or all of these MLMs?

No, they're not MLMs.

Things like franchises are controlled so that supply is matched to demand. You won't see 3 KFCs all in the same place for example as they would just simply be competing with each other for the same customers.

There's no such control with MLM. You just end up with far to many sellers selling to too few customers and they're all in competition with each other.

If you end up with a load of MLMers competing for the market you've introduced them to (i.e. yours) they'll only end up taking business away from you - there won't be any more demand for the products but there'll be a lot more people selling them.

Not a good idea IMO.

[Legaleagle]

I think it is a shame that your own experiences have made you so cynical Legaleagle. My post was 100% genuine and time might tell me that some of my best guesses are erroneous - but we are going to give it a try anyway.

OK then I will take you at your word and try not to be so cynical;)


Trying to answer in a civil manner whatever your style will (I hope) always be mine. I don't know what a "MLM Troll" might be or what the "Red Herrings" are that you see. All I have done is tell you my story to date and how I came to the conclusion that we would give it a go.

Okie Dokie.


Plainly therefore I support MLM in the circumstances I have described and if I knew how to create a "blog" I would be happy to try to let you know of our ups and downs as we go down this path. As it is I don't know how to do that so from time to time I will post my feelings on here.

It will make interesting reading.


I actually can't really give strong opinions on how MLM is sold to the average person on the street and I don't really know if we have any more business acumen than this average person. I have never really had it "sold" to me - we volunteered for this particular MLM - so I haven't got a view of their recruitment tactics. I do however know some ladies who were suckered into something called "Women Empowering Women" a few years back which was plainly a ridiculous pyramid selling thing that involved handing over cash for the right to ask other women to hand it to you. I could not understand how any sane person could join that scheme and think the people who did will be parted from their money by something if not MLM!!

So you are not prepared to be drawn on the question of whether MLM can work in any other circumstances than the ones you have described? (and I'm not saying that it'll work in your circumstances BTW).

This makes your contribution of limited validity as no one has ever argued that MLM can't work for some people. The fact that it doesn't work for 99% of people is what makes me "cynical" about it, but I'm surprised you couldn't work that out for yourself.

[MallorcaMan]

You have a strange style of discussion Mr Legaleagle - always trying to be on the offensive!
I can be drawn on whether MLM can work in other circumstances but I prefer to feel qualified to comment and really this new journey of ours is the only one I (am going to) know enough about to give strong opinions. But since you ask...
I believe that ALL business is MLM in one form or another and that it is only where you draw the line that determines the Scam from the Opportunity. My "traditional business" has one manufacturer (that I use) who supplies about 20 distributors, who each in turn supply about 20 operators (that's me) and I supply about 100 bars with their soft drinks. Effectively every one of their many thousands of drinking customers is putting a bit of cash into each of the people in the upline. But that's normal business - isn't it?
Just like any other MLM I lean on my friends and "downline" to help me target more "downlines" (I call them customers!).
As I have said I will try to describe our experiences in our new (3 days old) venture as honestly as I can. If we fail, fight, are cheated or do well I will try to let you know!

[Admin]

MallorcaMan,

That last posting of yours strongly suggests to me that you really do not know what MLM is all about.

All I can say is that my recommendation would be to knock this idea on the head ASAP.

Still, it's your business.....

[MallorcaMan]

Stands for Maybe/Must Lose Money doesn't it?

Or

Makes Losses Minimal/Manageable? :cheesy::smiley:;)

[Cuddles]

Doesn't it stand for "Really a pyraMid scheme but we're not allowed to call it that anymore so we'll change a coupLe of the details to avoid legislation and hope people are too stupid to notice we're still scamming them. Hey, look, the Money's just rolling in, turns out people really are that stupid. Hooray."

I can see why it's usually abbreviated.

[MallorcaMan]

I bet nobody asks you to expand on your theories! :smiley:

I still don't know why people don't see "traditional" business models as "Pyramids" too. ::)

[Admin]

I still don't know why people don't see "traditional" business models as "Pyramids" too. ::)

MLMs are considered as being Product Based Pyramid Schemes.

The MLM propaganda tries to convince people that a traditional businesses organisation chart resembles a pyramid too therefore the two businesses are similar.

This is using the fallacy of equivocation to try to convince people that MLM is not really very different at all from traditional businesses.

Also, the supply chain in a traditional business can look similar to the supply chain in MLM. Again, this resemblance is only superficial.

The fundamental difference between the two is that MLM has a multi-level sales force (which is actually completely superfluous to get goods to customers) and there's no limit to how many layers can get involved and there's no control over its expansion.

This is the fundamental flaw of MLM. See: The Truth about the Downline (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_truth_about_the_downline.php).

If you have even a basic understanding of business you'll spot the flaw very easily.

[MallorcaMan]

This forum seems to not encourage anyone to join discussion. The "Skeptics" are - to themsleves - so clearly correct, in all circumstances, that any disagreement tends to be ridiculed.
If you have even a basic understanding of business you'll spot the flaw very easily.
That last posting of yours strongly suggests to me that you really do not know what MLM is all about.
but I'm surprised you couldn't work that out for yourself. (That is a great shame - however I will continue to put forward my experiences and opinions!)
To try to give you a bit more information my wife is a Beauty Therapist of 26 years experience. She has a internationally based clientelle who come to her when they are resident on the island of Mallorca where we now live. The MLM we joined on 5th November is NSE (Nuskin / Pharmanex etc.).
To date we have bought one Galvanic Spa system and lotions an potions to use with it - I think we have spent about 325€ to date. Our approach is to ask my wifes customers to try using the system (which my wifes 26 years experience says is first class) and then to let them become "Preferred Customers" and buy directly from NSE at "wholesale prices" which are actually very competitive when compared to other ranges of similar quality. My wifes margin will go down from around 30% on her standard ranges to around 12% on these Preferred Customers' purchases. Will she sell 2.5 times as much product we doubt, however whilst her customers are wintering in the Caribbean or even back in the UK they can still get full access to their chosen products. They might even buy Nutritional products too! So our Gross Profits on these customers could go up or down but most likely will decline a little. However we will have no stocking issues (and holding the "wrong" stock I believe cost her around 4,000€ this year), reduced accounting costs (and our Gestor here cost 2,784€ last year) and greater customer satisfaction and thus retention year on year (we lost several good customers this year who because of lack of international access to my wife's suggested products moved to other suppliers). In other words we think we will probably end up with marginally more Euros in our pocket from the same customer base this year but with much reduced hassle.
Additionally we have half a dozen personal friends who have similar situations. We think that perhaps 2 or 3 of them might follow our route over the coming year or two. If 2 did this would quite possibly add a few hundred Euros a month to our income through their efforts - great if it happens - not critical if it doesn't. That's our situation.
Legaleagle asked if I thought MLM could work
in any other circumstances than the ones you have described? I don't know but I suspect there are other particular sets of circumstances where individuals can use this route to market very succesfully but I have no direct experience.

I am going to occasionally add what I think is a Blog like paragraph or two, thus:-

BLOG: The 325€ we spent this month we would have spent anyway on roughly equivalent items but we got our free Global Web Pages too. I spent an hour studying these and the seem fine. I discovered a product called Maxcast that at 9.95$ per month seems a great way of putting promotional videos up on the Web - we will never get rich promoting that but I think we will be customers for it!
The first "big" negative hit last night when our immeadiate upline rang to say she was feeling pressure from above to keep expanding her mailing list and she didn't really want to do this as she had had some negative replies to her emails. We told her we were not doing these "cold call" emails and explained our particular route. She felt her upline had misled her into feeling that only the numbers game and replication as she called it worked. That's bad but I think that is an individual thing that can be deflected away completely by us and our immeadiate upline - and once gone we can get on with our plan. CLOSE BLOG!

[Matt]

MallorcaMan, I see you've already spent money. It's too late for you to get that money back. It's too late to avoid being a victim if this is a scam. However (once again if this is a scam) it's not too late to avoid being a perpetrator.

Here is some infomation about Nuskin Pharmanex you may have already seen.

http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/NuSkin'sNaughtyNumbers.htm
http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/08/nuskin3.shtm

Can you let me know whay you think about it?

[Legaleagle]

MallorcaMan,

You spent 325e on products last month. What commission were you paid by Pharmanex for those sales?

Is there a minimum amount of sales that you have to make in a month before commission becomes payable at all?

How much have you spent already on welcome packs, time and fuel to attend presentations, motivational literature, samples, joining fees etc?

The hassle from your upline will continue and it will get worse. Believe me, these people won't take "no" for an answer.

We have already had another person on this forum who was involved in Pharanex/Nu Skin so some of us have examined available information on this Company already. Have you looked into whether the products they are selling are actually effective, properly tested and licensed? Have you considered the disclaimers printed on the products and the fact that the efficacy of many of the products is disputed by independent sources, including the US government?

[MallorcaMan]

Matt, I had read the first two links - I thought the first one was really silly to be honest - I have now read the 3rd. These all have an accurate strand and that is that NSE publish lots of numbers that read incorrectly (and I don't deny that they may intend this) imply that lots of people make lots of money. Obviously if you want to believe any 10 plus 10 or even Power of 2 calculation you are swiftly going to be parted from your money whether its in MLM, gambling or a traditional business. So I accept pretty fully and dismiss those articles.

Legaleagle, If you read what I have said you will see we don't expect to get rich. We are hoping that we might add a little marginal income (500-2000€ per month) by continuing to do what we (or more accurately my wife does) do now. But doing even the same net revenue would be a big win because we would have lost a lot of the hassles of her "traditional" model.

You need to spend around 100€ per month on products to be eligable for commission - but we already spend around 1,200€ a month average on similar skin care products and equipment. Indeed the Galvanic Spa net price is quite a lot cheaper than the alternative we purchased before and is much more user friendly and safety conscious.

We haven't spent 1 cent on collateral things but have agreed to spend 8.30€ (I think) per month to maintain the web domains and web sites. We have attended about 4 hours of training (foc) and Mallorca is a small place so fuel costs etc are minimal!

The disclaimers, testing or not etc are entirely normal in my wife's industry - so yes I have examined these and am satisfied that all is as it should be!

I hate the idea that I am defending NSE because I haven't enough experience of them to do that. I will continue to tell it like it is (from our now 4 days old) experience. Bear with it a bit - I will tell you if it's all a crock - but I will tell you from real experience, not theoretical, third hand or predetermined views.

Cheers Guys - interesting times may lay ahead!

[Admin]

This forum seems to not encourage anyone to join discussion. The "Skeptics" are - to themsleves - so clearly correct, in all circumstances, that any disagreement tends to be ridiculed.

That's an incorrect generalization, but yes, when it comes to MLM you're right. MLM is an out and out scam and it doesn't matter how you discuss it the conclusion is always the same.

Remember, this may be your first time of being involved with MLM but we've been through the same thing countless times before. So if it looks like we've already formed a conclusion, that's because we have.

I always advise people against getting involved with MLM but if they want to 'give it a go' I also strongly stress that they should only do so by using money they can afford to lose. That's because it's virtually guaranteed that they will fail and lose money.

MallorcaMan, as I said to you privately, you are not just risking money you can't afford to lose here you're actually gambling with your own business, your own livelihood. The consequences could be disastrous for you.

Still, all we can do is provide information. We're not guardian angels here to save people from their own irrational decisions etc.

I feel strongly that you have jumped into something here that you really don't understand (by the way you talk about it) and that you are taking a huge, and probably unnecessary, risk.

Still, it's your decision. Your call. No-one can get harmed by this other than you and your wife.

[Cuddles]

You need to spend around 100€ per month on products to be eligable for commission - but we already spend around 1,200€ a month average on similar skin care products and equipment. Indeed the Galvanic Spa net price is quite a lot cheaper than the alternative we purchased before and is much more user friendly and safety conscious.

You spend £600 on cosmetics every month? My god, if you've got that much more money that sense, why the hell are you wasting your time trying to get a couple of hundred pounds more?

[seren]

Cuddles his wife runs a beauty business! I'd hope such huge cosmetics bills are evidence of nothing more than a healthy business...

[jonmtaylor]

One can’t help noticing that some who have posted on this blog ask the usual questions about the legitimacy of MLM/network marketing. Having over 12 years independent research and experience with this topic, I felt it a good idea to post online answers to the most frequently asked questions about MLM.


Some challenge submitters to the blog to “Show me the facts.” Well here you have them, along with references on how the research was done to verify the rather startling conclusions. Typical questions treated include:

How can I clearly distinguish between a pyramid scheme and a legitimate sales opportunity?
Who is pocketing the money from huge MLM revenues?
Are MLM promoters lying to the public, the media, and to law enforcement?
Are MLM promoters crooks?
If MLM products really work, what is the harm in buying them?
Why are laws against pyramid schemes or endless chains seldom enforced in the case of MLM programs?
What can I do for legitimate income without leaving home or entrepreneurship and entering the standard job market?
For answers to these and other relevant questions, go to –
http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/FAQreMLM.htm (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/FAQreMLM.htm) Then please post your reactions on this blog. Was the information genuinely helpful, and if so, how?

- Jon M. Taylor, MBA, Ph.D., President, Consumer Awareness Institute
and Advisor, Pyramid Scheme Alert
“Truth on MLM” Web site for MLM research and guides

[brianp]

Where do these MLM propagandists come from? It's amazing - one by one they're parachuting into the forum to take on the massed ranks of skeptics with their well-rehearsed, if predictable and unconvincing, blather. They just appear from nowhere, join the forum and wade into the debate singing the praises of MLM in general or of some particular sub-species thereof. It doesn't seem to happen with other controversial topics, be they scams, woomongeries or both, but point out the obvious drawbacks and serious risks of MLM schemes, and in come the defenders of the faith to try to undo any damage that might have been done lest - heaven forbid - the supply of credulous mugs with a few pounds to throw away should dry up.

[MallorcaMan]

As I seem to be the only person still open minded about MLM contributing to this Forum I can only assume that the "MLM propagandists" with their "blather" that friend brianp refers to is me!

I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything, simply relating how I feel. However if this Forum exists only as a soapbox for a single point of view then perhaps I should withdraw...

Discuss....

[seren]

Hey Mallorca Man,

If you don't mind me butting in.

You will find that most regulars on this board think the same way about MLM- that it is a scam. However, this is not just a "point of view". "Point of view" suggests that it's just what they believe based on their thoughts, their lives and experiences, and from another person's life and experience the view would be different. From my point of view trees are beautiful, from a dog's point of view they're a handy toilet, that kind of thing.

This is a Skeptic site, and skepticism doesn't work like that. People here think MLM doesn't work because it has been examined, looked at, tested, questioned, prodded, poked and possibly fondled, and in every case it has been found to not work.

If Skeptics have a soapbox, it's one that just asks people to look at what has been measured and tested and found to be demonstrably true, rather than having "points of view" which have no basis in fact. It can be your point of view that most people who get involved in MLM could make a sustained profit from it, but that won't change the fact that the vast majority of people don't. They don't. That's a fact. Not a point of view.

This is the message you'll get here, because it's what all known evidence tells us is true. I don't know what other opinion you could want to hear; the only other ones I could think of would be:

"It's great! I made a mint!" Mr A Totally Unbiased Example, Amway marketing literature.
or
"Well, why not? You've got to try these things. If opportunity comes knocking you should always answer!" Mrs Bankrupt (nee Miss Uninformed but Hopeful).

There are plenty of places you can find both these people and their "points of view". But, to nick someone else's signature (sorry): the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

Stick around and see. :smiley:

[MallorcaMan]

Thanks for helping prove the point Seren!

[seren]

I'm sorry, but you've lost me. My post was an attempt to explain why people here tend to agree with each other on this topic, not a comment on MLM.

[brianp]

As I seem to be the only person still open minded about MLM contributing to this Forum I can only assume that the "MLM propagandists" with their "blather" that friend brianp refers to is me!

You are just the latest manifestation. And far from being open-minded, your mind seems completely closed to anything negative about MLM - and you'll find a lot of negatives about MLM without looking very far.

On this forum virtually everyone is deaf to hype and propaganda - we look at the evidence and make up our minds. On the basis of available evidence - including the experience of a former colleague and his wife, and information from a local distributor of one particular MLM - I concluded long ago that MLM schemes were out-and-out scams, and, even without a show of hands, I was virtually certain that the majority here would have reached the same conclusion. And so it has proved.

We don't have closed minds, but you won't change our minds with promotional tracts.

[Admin]

As I seem to be the only person still open minded about MLM contributing to this Forum

[.....]

Discuss....

You only need to keep an 'open mind' when there's insufficient evidence to reach a conclusion on an issue.

Of course there's always the fallacious claim to be Open Minded (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php) when in fact you're nothing of the kind. ;)

Which reminds me: I should write up 'Jackson's law' and claim it for myself. :cheesy:

[whatsgoingon]

You only need to keep an 'open mind' when there's insufficient evidence to reach a conclusion on an issue.

Of course there's always the fallacious claim to be Open Minded (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php) when in fact you're nothing of the kind. ;)

Which reminds me: I should write up 'Jackson's law' and claim it for myself. :cheesy:John..I have just joined this site,and have spent the last 60 mins reading various posts by you.
It seems to me that you are very closed minded with ref to MLM.
I have been able to retire from a job 12 years ago because I built a very good income from building an MLM business FACT
I spend a lot of time with other people in various parts of the world that have done the same( a lot better/bigger) than me FACT
My average income over the last 12 years is £85000-£95000 FACT Not a huge income( in comparison to yours poss) I know,but enough to give me a very nice lifestyle. I pay my taxes,have no debt and am very proud of what I have built.
I know that alot of people that get involved with MLM quit and dont make money,but I know a lot of people that quit the job/career they started because it did not work out for them.I know folk that TRIED to be prof foot-ballers.accountants,nurses,singers,actors etc etc and did not make it....does that mean others should not try ?????
My wife and kids are very glad that I built our business as the job I had could never have given them the lifestyle we have to-day
So you see John ..there ARE people that make MLM work for them. But just like any other job/career not everyone gets to the top or anywhere near the top. I once worked in a factory with 800 people on the facrory floor....how many of them became Dirctors or Managers in the factory
I wish you well at whatever you do....but to anyone out there that wants a better way of life for themselves I will say this....give it a go...what if it DOES work for you..if it doesnt at least you tried What is worse...someone that cant read...or someone that can read but doesnt read ???? what is worse...someone who tried .and failed..or someone that didnt even try ?????

[brianp]

John..I have just joined this site,and have spent the last 60 mins reading various posts by you.
It seems to me that you are very closed minded with ref to MLM.
I have been able to retire from a job 12 years ago because I built a very good income from building an MLM business FACT

Just a few days ago I wrote (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=23724) and, as if to prove my point, yet another one jumps into the fray.

[MallorcaMan]

You guys, most of whom admit to no experiences whatsoever about what you speak, are so terrified of alternative and dissenting views. Indeed it is (recently) whatsgoingon and myself who are the skeptics who "instinctively doubt, question or disagree with (your!!) generally accepted assertions"

Are you really so convinced that only you can be right? You are moving well outside any definition of Skeptic that I can Google up!

I feel very sorry for you all - I hope you heal in time!!

[brianp]

I have been able to retire from a job 12 years ago because I built a very good income from building an MLM business FACT

So it works for you! So what? Your personal success story is of absolutely no interest to me and I strongly suspect that others here share my disinterest. My concern is the the 99&#37;+ who join such schemes and fail? My concern is MLM's inherently flawed business model and the misleading hype surrounding it which sucks in the naive and gullible.

If you really want to defend MLM - though I think you're on a losing wicket here given that most subscribers are anything but gullible fools - then why not address the issues raised on John's excellent http://www.ukskeptics.com/multi_level_marketing.php

[brianp]

You guys, most of whom admit to no experiences whatsoever about what you speak, are so terrified of alternative and dissenting views. Indeed it is (recently) whatsgoingon and myself who are the skeptics who "instinctively doubt, question or disagree with (your!!) generally accepted assertions"

I don't know who you think you are going to impress with your pathetic inanities, inaccuracies and distortions. Few here reach conclusions based on uniformed prejudice or attachment to received views - we look at the evidence and use our brains.

My detestation of MLMs stems from the experiences of two close friends and those of several acquaintances - and reading of the experiences of many more. The more I learnt the more I became convinced of its inherent problems. It cannot work for the majority - many will lose out in a big way - it is a scam.

[Admin]

I have been able to retire from a job 12 years ago because I built a very good income from building an MLM business FACT
I spend a lot of time with other people in various parts of the world that have done the same( a lot better/bigger) than me FACT
My average income over the last 12 years is £85000-£95000 FACT Not a huge income( in comparison to yours poss) I know,but enough to give me a very nice lifestyle. I pay my taxes,have no debt and am very proud of what I have built.

I don't believe a word of what you're claiming = FACT ;)

Skeptics do not accept such claims without solid evidence.

[Admin]

You guys, most of whom admit to no experiences whatsoever about what you speak, are so terrified of alternative and dissenting views.

No, many of us have stated that we do have experiental knowledge of MLM in some manner and we've found it to be a scam.

And the 'you're too scared to accept it' quip is just a standard piece of nonsense that's always used by credophiles.

Why would we be 'scared' of MLM? If it worked, we'd all be doing it!


Indeed it is (recently) whatsgoingon and myself who are the skeptics who "instinctively doubt, question or disagree with (your!!) generally accepted assertions"

Are you really so convinced that only you can be right? You are moving well outside any definition of Skeptic that I can Google up!

I feel very sorry for you all - I hope you heal in time!!

I have a feeling that you're going to look back in a few months' time at what you've written on this site, the information you've been given and the warnings you were given, and see it all from a different perspective.

You're about to learn an expensive lesson - and learn the value of skepticism into the bargain.

[whatsgoingon]

I don't believe a word of what you're claiming = FACT ;)

Skeptics do not accept such claims without solid evidence.
I did not expect you to believe what I said...FACT
I did not write my post to try and convince anyone that MLM works...FACT
I just wanted to let you and your cult followers know that some people have made it work for them. NOTHING works...YOU have to MAKE it work.
We ( my wife and I ) worked very hard in order to get our very good income so that I could retire from my job over 12 years ago..whats the problem with that. You I assume work in a job and will continue to do so for many years to come. I dont have a problem with you working..so why do you have a problem with the fact that we are not.
AGAIN let me say..I am just letting you know..it worked for us.....But a fool convinced against his will is of the same opinion still..So you see John You are right...but so am I..

[Cuddles]

I did not write my post to try and convince anyone that MLM works

So, you're here why exactly? "MLM works, but I'm not trying to convince you it works." Have you ever considered reading what you type before posting it?

[brianp]

So you see John You are right...but so am I..

What I see is that you are a cretin.

[ZERO]

You guys, most of whom admit to no experiences whatsoever about what you speak,
My Father in the 80's...burned
My wife in the 90's...burned


Are you really so convinced that only you can be right? You are moving well outside any definition of Skeptic that I can Google up!
Convinced because that's where the evidence and experience many of us have seen or had leads us.


you and your cult followers
;D:cheesy: Do we drink our kool-aid now?
Brainwashed and emotionaly hooked by MLM propaganda, the cult tag might be more apt closer to home.

[bobdezon]

All hail the leader bean O0

[whatsgoingon]

What I see is that you are a cretin.
that is a lovely thing to say about anyone...guess your mum must be proud of you.
If as you say ..I am a cretin..at least I am a wealthy/free cretin.
But it is soooo typical of people like you to resort to saying things like that as you KNOW.. and I KNOW.. that MLM works for those that WORK it. Not everyone wants to just sit behind a sceen and belittle people that have had the guts to step out of the crowd and get their freedom. You see the reason that I have what I have is because I got off my butt and HELPED other people to DO something .
It must realy irritate you that there are people like me that will respond now and again to your idiotic remarks . Of course there are people that got into MLM and did not succeed...any idiot knows that ( ie you ) but why can you not admit that there are plenty of good people out there that have made it work.

[siestatime]

The first "big" negative hit last night when our immeadiate upline rang to say she was feeling pressure from above to keep expanding her mailing list and she didn't really want to do this as she had had some negative replies to her emails.

Hello, Mallorca Man, if you are still with us. I have to say that when I read this part of your story it reminded me unpleasantly of what happened to a friend of mine - and no amount of "due diligence" or other clever catch-phrases helped her.

Can you update your blog?

[Admin]

The trouble is whatsgoingon is that all you are doing is making assertions with nothing to back them up.

We're also well aware of the MLM propagandists who seem to have a knack of finding every single forum MLM thread on the internet and jumping in to tell everyone how MLM worked for them and that they're making a residual small fortune by sitting on their sofa. Blah, blah, blah....

Bollocks.

[whatsgoingon]

The trouble is whatsgoingon is that all you are doing is making assertions with nothing to back them up.

We're also well aware of the MLM propagandists who seem to have a knack of finding every single forum MLM thread on the internet and jumping in to tell everyone how MLM worked for them and that they're making a residual small fortune by sitting on their sofa. Blah, blah, blah....

Bollocks.
Ha Ha ...another lovely thing to say to someone.....what is it about you folk...that you have to bad mouth people???..why can you not be happy for someone that has worked hard at MLM and won.
You guys are soo happy to join your little cult of loosers and put down all MLMs, but as soon as one or two of us respond all you can do is resort to bad mouthing.
As far as making assertions and not backing anything up......Everyone of any importance to us ie accountant,bank manager,,wife and kids ,tax office ,fellow MLMers know our income,I most certainly do not have any reason to share that info with you because you are of no importance to me.
You see with your attitude and closed mind it is highly unlikely that anyone would want to share a good concept with you because when you are not wealthy after a week or two you would run away and tell all of your followers that thats another one that doesnt work
You have no clue just how foolish your pathetic remarks are to those of us that have made MLM work...we are free...you can not even dream of what that is like. So John ..keep up the bad mouthing,no doubt you will find a lot of people to follow you, in the meanwhile I KNOW what it is like to be free and do not need to prove it to the like of you.

[Admin]

what is it about you folk...that you have to bad mouth people. You guys are soo happy to join your little cult of loosers[sic]

Like referring to people as members of a cult. ;)


As far as making assertions and not backing anything up......I most certainly do not have any reason to share that info with you

What a surprise!!! ;D

But that's why no-one is going to believe a single word you say.


You see with your attitude and closed mind

A closed mind eh? Looks like another bit of bad mouthing there. ;)

Hey, Mr 'open mind' have a read of this: The Open Mind (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php) - written specifically with people like you in mind.

Now if you're not prepared to contribute with supported claims why don't you take your spamming lies elsewhere.

[seren]

it is highly unlikely that anyone would want to share a good concept with you

Then don't. Go away.


I most certainly do not have any reason to share that info with you because you are of no importance to me.

Then don't. Go away.



in the meanwhile I KNOW what it is like to be free and do not need to prove it to the like of you.

Then don't. Go away.

[Legaleagle]

that is a lovely thing to say about anyone...guess your mum must be proud of you.

And your mother must be very proud of you if you make your living from scamming innocent members of the public.


If as you say ..I am a cretin..at least I am a wealthy/free cretin.

Wealth made from a pyramid scheme which scams members of the public. Very impressive.


But it is soooo typical of people like you to resort to saying things like that as you KNOW.. and I KNOW.. that MLM works for those that WORK it. Not everyone wants to just sit behind a sceen and belittle people that have had the guts to step out of the crowd and get their freedom. You see the reason that I have what I have is because I got off my butt and HELPED other people to DO something .

99% of the people you have "helped" will have lost money in your scam.


It must realy irritate you that there are people like me that will respond now and again to your idiotic remarks . Of course there are people that got into MLM and did not succeed...any idiot knows that ( ie you ) but why can you not admit that there are plenty of good people out there that have made it work.

If you have made money from the scam, then yes, it does irritate me. If what you are saying is true then you are basically making a living by setting other people up to fail. It never ceases to amaze me how pondlife like you are actually proud of the fact that they are running a pyramid scam and making money from it.

[vbloke]

http://wondermark.com/comics/355.gif

[MallorcaMan]

I was so disturbed by the entrenched views (on both sides) and the increasing vitriol that I left the Forum alone for the last 5 weeks and have only just seen Siestatime's request for an update. I am not going to enter into too much discussion - life's too short - but I will post an update thus:>

OPEN BLOG! We didn't spend any more money in November but we did talk to some of our friends and my wife's customers, and start to use both the skin care and the health supplements we had bought. My wife uses them for herself now and is completely convinced that the skin care products are very, very good and she is happy to recommend them to the majority of her clients (some have skin types that are not suitable for the products).
I don't know if the health supplements are doing much for me (6 weeks in), how can you tell? I suspect they are as good as any other and at distributor prices are quite competitive with the best out there. You can buy cheaper at Holland & Barrett but it's pretty near impossible to compare apples with apples on this subject. I keep googling around and can't find articles that say any of the products are poor so I am going to take them on faith for now!
In December we bought around 350 euros worth again but sold on 280€ of that. Our customers bought almost 700 euros worth and all are delighted with their products. We now have standing orders from customers for around 400 euros per month.
Our commission for November turned out to be just 23€! Our commission for December (paid 25th January) will be about 145€ if we sell nothing more this month.
Thus the net flows over the first 7 weeks have been: we have spent 700€, received 448€ (inc commission for Dec); we have used (or are using) at distributor prices about 280€ worth of products and have about 130€ worth of saleable stock.
The Skeptics would say we are 250€ down I suppose but we feel abot 150€ ahead plus we have the beginnings of a business.

We have talked toabout 22 people: 5 have purchased products as consumers, 1 more has decided to try out the business, 2 have said no chance but still have the same relationship they had with us before, 2 more have said they would not purchase items over the Internet so in January we are getting stock to retail to them and the other 12 are ongoing.

We have gained some good people as friends both within the business and outside but because of it.

We think it is going OK! CLOSE BLOG

If people prefer me not to post our experiences (probably about once a month) just let me know. If this causes too much nastiness amongst you all I am happy to desist.

Cheers and Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Years to all.

[siestatime]

MallorcaMan, thanks for returning and telling us how you are getting on.

Sometimes there are raised voices and harsh words here, I agree, but this treatment is not dished out to everyone who posts.

I personally have no wish to see anyone else have the same unhappy experience as my friend, and I hope that you may see the warning signs beforehand and get out sooner rather than hanging on and hoping things will improve.

Other people may add specific criticisms, I will only say that once your clients decide to sell the same products as you then your income will be significantly reduced.

Please keep us up to date with how your business progresses.

[Barbara Peachey]

Although there are a lot of dodgy companies out there, you would do well to check out the longevity of any organisation you intend to get involved with. The Comany we have been with for the past 16 years was established in 1923and was the first British network marketing organisation and a founder member of the DSA.Many people are looking for a ground floor opportunity with a fantanstic pay plan, but what they don't realise is that once people climb the ladder and begin to achieve the incomes promised, these companies just cannot afford to pay out such large percentages of their profit, and most go under. This usually happens between 2 and 5 years. Believe me, I know this from experience, as we have been involved in the industry for almost 30 years.I wish you every luck in whatever venture you go ahead with, but please do your homework first before you commit yourself and your money.Kind regardsBarbara PeacheyBronze Senior Executive Distributorfor KleenezeWhether you are looking for part-time money, a supplementary income or want to carve out a new full-time career for yourself, take some time to check out this site:- [link removed]

[vbloke]

The British subsidiary of one of the world’s biggest marketing groups has replaced its senior management and substantially altered its business model after being accused of operating against the public interest, a court was told yesterday.

Amway, which had 39,000 selling agents in Britain during 2005-06, is defending itself against an application to wind up the company by John Hutton, the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. It has been accused by the Government of being “inherently objectionable”, of operating as a "lottery" and of trading unlawfully. The court has been told its promises of wealth are “illusionary” and amount to “dream-selling”.

...snip...

The Government investigation claims to have shown that only 10 per cent of Amway’s agents make any profit and only 6 per cent sell a single item of the group’s products. It claims that the company overstates potential earnings and that its main activity is encouraging agents to recruit other people to its sales force.bolding mine
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/consumer_goods/article2963655.ece

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

When Amway ends its self-imposed moratorium on recruitment, it will scrap its joining fee and ban new agents them from recruiting “down-line” members until they have made sales above £200 in 12 months and have five customers, Mr Chivers said.


Will that make much difference? £200 is a tiny amount of money in 12 months.

This news puts a totally different slant on this thread, given the arguments from the pro-Amway brigade. Lets not call them arguments, lets just call it propaganda.

[Mongrel]

Lets not call them arguments, lets just call it propaganda.
Can't we just call it B******s and be done with it?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I think the £200 figure shows just how B******ks it is. If someone can't achieve £200 sales easily in 12 months, and it sounds like they can't, then it is an absolute sham. And that is coming from someone who knows an awful lot less about MLM that some of the other people on here.

[Admin]

And of course, the easiest way to make &#163;200 in sales is to buy the products yourself.

New victims recruits will undoubtedly be told to 'invest' in &#163;200 worth of stock that they'll be able to build their downline.

I can see who the winners of this voluntary legislation will be (!)

[bindeweede]

Perhaps I shouldn't drag this subject up again, but I came across this.


MLM recruiting techniques laid bare. John Taylor, MBA, PhD, who operates the Consumer Awareness Institute (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/), has done a detailed analysis of the sales pitches used to persuade people to join multilevel marketing companies. These companies claim that fortunes can be made by recruiting distributors and getting commissions on their sales. However, he has found—industrywide—that over 99% of new distributors lose money and that MLM recruiters hide the near-zero odds of making a profit. [Taylor J. Typical MLM misrepresentations (http://www.mlmwatch.org/01General/misrepresentations.html). MLM Watch, Jan 23, 2008] The Federal Trade Commission has proposed a Business Opportunity Rule (http://www.mlmwatch.org/06FTC/business_opportunity/comments.html) to force disclosure of true income potential, but the MLM industry is fighting tooth-and-nail to stop implementation of the rule. Last year, on behalf of the industry, more than 50 Congressional representatives and three former high-ranking FTC officials asked the FTC to develop "an alternative proposal that achieves the FTC's desired goals while not adversely affecting legitimate business interests." The Proposed Rule would do exactly that, but MLM leaders know that honest disclosure would decimate their industry. Because MLMs have deceived millions of people, the proposed rule is one the most important consumer-protection measures the agency has ever considered.

From http://www.ncahf.org/digest08/08-04.html

[Janot]

The best networking op is going into a soft global launch in March.. Travel,global-communications---has the best seemless pay plan for network marketing with the combo of direct sales.. Now if you want a peak at it so you can analyze why it will not be a huge massive success(it will)just ask. cheers freebie p.s This is not your uncle Bill"s mlm..Sorry - could you translate into English please?

[DrS]

Oh, did you have to ? :sad:

[bindeweede]

Well, he/she did say this.

A SEARCH Engine made me join this Forum ... cheers and success2all Freebie

Something missing?

[bindeweede]

One of our goals is to...
Provide people just like you the opportunity to earn a full-time income while working part-time.

At English version International we want to help improve the lives of millions of people around the globe through education, edification and recognition.

Really? Or, you could say, you want to sell over-priced stuff to people who think they can jump on to a "get-rich-quick" bandwagon.

You are wasting your efforts here.

Oh dear, I seem to have used this new function accidentally "One Touch Ban and Clean". Been looking forward for ages......

[Admin]

Oh dear, I seem to have used this new function accidentally "One Touch Ban and Clean". Been looking forward for ages......

Drat! >:-)

I wanted to be the first to use it. ;D

[ZERO]

Oh dear, I seem to have used this new function accidentally "One Touch Ban and Clean". Been looking forward for ages......
Oh, oh! I better start spelling your username correctly. :scared:

[bindeweede]

Oh, oh! I better start spelling your username correctly. :scared:

I could never harm a fellow avatar-addict. And I mean that most sincerely.::)

Your new one sums up your computer frustrations rather well.

[ZERO]

I could never harm a fellow avatar-addict. And I mean that most sincerely.::)
Aahh, I can breathe easy.

Oh, by the way, I'm not an avatar addict. I can stop using them any time.
I just don't want to.:smiley:


Your new one sums up your computer frustrations rather well.
Quite accurately. >:-) ;D :cheesy: :'(

[Legaleagle]

I notice that we havn't heard anything from Malorcaman since December. If you are still out there it would be interesting to see an update on your Pharmanex blog.

[filippo lippi]

I bet he can't get to his PC for piles of money. He has EARNED £££££££££££££££££s!!!!!!

[Legaleagle]

I bet he can't get to his PC for piles of money. He has EARNED £££££££££££££££££s!!!!!!

Titter ye not... This is a serious enquiry. I am actually interested what he has to say. I suspected him of being an MLM stooge at first glance, but I have a suspicion that the guy is genuine and that if he is willing to exchange notes about his foray into MLM then I for one am prepared to open my lugholes and listen to whatever information he has to present on the subject.

[filippo lippi]

I was trying to parody "them," not having a pop, honest. Unfortunately, our Balearic correspondent is probably too embarrassed to admit his mistakes, a bit like that silent of mass of dupes who fall victim to the extortions of cash-rich relatives of Sub-Saharan African ex-dictators*.




*"clumsy sentence of the year award" nomination is in the bag

[Admin]

I notice that we havn't heard anything from Malorcaman since December. If you are still out there it would be interesting to see an update on your Pharmanex blog.

We never did hear back from Mallorcaman did we.

I guess we'll just have to assume his venture with MLM failed as otherwise I'd have expected him to have been in here telling us all how wrong we were.

[Molly]

Oh dear therealbt ... they have suckered you in big time haven't they?

My own experience of MLM was via my first husband, who got well and truly suckered in - Just about every penny we earned was poured into meetings, goods (not stock just what he was 'encouraged' to buy for our domestic use) and 'inspirational' books and tapes.

I gave up and left him after about a year - the whole fake 'self belief' and 'positive thinking' carp stuck in the back of my throat quite frankly. He was so far into their 'dream' that he had the nerve to offer me product instead of maintenance ::);D

He too believed that 'the only way you can fail is by giving up' line ... He is still doing it now, 12 years later - funny but he doesn't own a yacht, a small island or a ferrari yet - nor has he given up work.

'Just unlucky', 'not committed enough', 'doesn't believe enough', 'doesn't WANT it enough' ? - if so then it's strange that none of the others that I knew during that period (upline and downline) have changed their lifestyles one iota either.

[Tim the Mage]

I haven't had the time to read through all the posts (way to many and pretty repetitive at times) but I have always been struck by the fact that few people know anyone who has made a decent buck from "network marketing". However, the real scam of these schemes lies in their exploitation of people's mathematical limitations - there are simply not enough willing folk. The result is that the "MLM-er" becomes like a cocaine addict endlessly hanging around with other like folk or else pestering family and friends for cash/a sales/a loan.

Network marketing is a pretty good deal for the folk at the top of the pyramid - but they aren't network leaders but manufacturers/importers/distributors taking advantage of the world's ready supply of suckers. Rather than sell the goods they sell the prospect of ££££$$$$s and it works. But not for those at the front line who can't sell the lousy product to anyone but family and (soon to be former) friends.

[William Lawson]

I haven't had the time to read through all the posts (way to many and pretty repetitive at times) but I have always been struck by the fact that few people know anyone who has made a decent buck from "network marketing". However, the real scam of these schemes lies in their exploitation of people's mathematical limitations - there are simply not enough willing folk. The result is that the "MLM-er" becomes like a cocaine addict endlessly hanging around with other like folk or else pestering family and friends for cash/a sales/a loan.

Network marketing is a pretty good deal for the folk at the top of the pyramid - but they aren't network leaders but manufacturers/importers/distributors taking advantage of the world's ready supply of suckers. Rather than sell the goods they sell the prospect of ££££$$$$s and it works. But not for those at the front line who can't sell the lousy product to anyone but family and (soon to be former) friends.

Network Marketing is a fantastic industry. Where the average person with no investment can start up as business. Essentially a franchise opportunity without the franchise cost.

Robert Kiyosaki anjd Donald Trump both advocate network marketing. Why would they put their reputations on the line otherwise?

BUT...There's a problem. 97% of everyone in network marketing do not even make a dime. And it is down to many different reasons but these are the 3 main ones:

1. A NON-duplicatable system.

Yes writing down a lost of friends and family is duplicatable, but that's the only part that is duplicatable. Most people do not have the personality to expliot family and friends and experiences a crisis of the soul if they even try.

2. A lack of/inappropriate traiining.

So common now...I'm sure every one who is MLM is sick and tired of being told to set goals and be motivated. Yes they are all important things but what you need in any industry, even working in mcdonalds... is SKILLS!

3. Compensation plans

Nearly every comp plan I have seen is set up to reward big heavy hitting business builders and really deosn't give a stuff about rewarding part time people. Talk about greed and ego and also stupidity because 96% of everyone in network marketing is works the opportunity part time.

I have dragged myself through all the failures in network marketing and I happy to say I've now turned things around and am very successful now. But I have spent hundreds of dollars on audio programs and books. Wasted hundreds of dollars on useless leads and trial and error advertsing, I have found the success formula. But that has only been a result of running an emotional gauntlet and then discovering that if I wanted to be successful I better start hanging out with experinced multi millionaires and getting advice from them, and stop listening to people in my company, even conducting the metting but even they were struggling. Yes I would say these meetings and company 'Ra Ra' events are no more than egotistical brain washing events...Sorry!

You don't have to go through what I went through. I can pass on to you all the tools you need for free and I make it my business to do so. There's only so many blood splatters I can wipe form my eyes of innocent lambs getting slaughtered by these heavy hitters. So if you are struggling in mlm , or are looking to get involved but are skeptical , then just get a free eductaion on the industry and learn to think Critically but not Negatively abotu everthing

It's eveyones bitth right to be happy and the answers are out there. Just get educated and learn to be... not a negative, but a critical thinker. There is a BIG difference!

Dedicated to helping others

William Lawson

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

You don't have to go through what I went through. I can pass on to you all the tools you need for free and I make it my business to do so.


What's the catch? Is there one?

[Tim the Mage]

What's the catch? Is there one?

Almost certainly...what we read again is the nonsense of 'there's easy money to be made if you learn my secret formula' - there ain't and you won't get rich. And you'll probably lose all your friends and upset your family.

[filippo lippi]

I can pass on to you all the tools you need for free and I make it my business to do so.

Off you go then. I'll look at it critically.

[Pebble]

William Lawson


What is this guy doing on a skeptics site? Advertising?

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSoyMAWGVro (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSoyMAWGVro)


Everything immediately available has 'free' in big letters, so I suspect simply fishing for peoples details, for ensnarement.

[Tim the Mage]

What is this guy doing on a skeptics site? Advertising?

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSoyMAWGVro (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSoyMAWGVro)


Everything immediately available has 'free' in big letters, so I suspect simply fishing for peoples details, for ensnarement.

Pretty desparate if you ask me. Or are we more gullible than we seem?

[bindeweede]

Pretty desparate if you ask me. Or are we more gullible than we seem?

I can't get those links to work, but this one seems to.

KSoyMAWGVro

Is this the one being referred to?

[bindeweede]

Worked it out. The second "http://" is unnecessary.

[Tim the Mage]

If you search on 'free network marketing consultant' you get hundreds of budding experts on you-tube type videos telling us absolutely nothing. Follow the trail and you get to the point where the next great secret is imparted - and you have to join! And being good network marketers you join their down-line, buy the goodies (in this case "free advice") and move on. It's really cute because anyone who has got involved enough with MLM to be looking for free consultancy advice on how to do it better is plainly a number one mark for the sharks running these scams. These consultants are parasites on this most parasitic of industries! Fabulously sickening!

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

This is possibly my favourite thread on the whole board, after Psychic Sarah and Gary Mannion ones. So many interesting visitors!

[William Lawson]

Almost certainly...what we read again is the nonsense of 'there's easy money to be made if you learn my secret formula' - there ain't and you won't get rich. And you'll probably lose all your friends and upset your family.

Where did I talk about 'easy money to be made' a 'secret formula'. Please go back and read properly before commenting it makes for a less ignorant reply. thank you

[Tim the Mage]

Where did I talk about 'easy money to be made' a 'secret formula'. Please go back and read properly before commenting it makes for a less ignorant reply. thank you

A where exactly did I say you said that?

[William Lawson]

What is this guy doing on a skeptics site? Advertising?




Everything immediately available has 'free' in big letters, so I suspect simply fishing for peoples details, for ensnarement.

I was not advertsining. I posted an opinion. Please go back and check and you will see I have left no URL on the post or any kind of contact info .

The video was not posted by me but by another unscrupulous person. Hence it has appeared on their profile , but not mine.

The botom line is . I am an MLM skeptic, but I am a true skeptic a critical thinker. Critical thinking needs to be backed up with education or it is just an exercise or ignorance, ego and prejudice.

If I have helped 1 or 2 people looking at this forum that is struggling or been scammed in MLM to get educated and think critically about what their doing, then I consider myself to have done a good job.

MLM is not a sales business it is a teaching and mentoring business. I don't care where people get there info from just so long as they have the tools and skills to be successful. I just offer generic help for free because there is so much hype at there, most if which is rubbish and if it is free then it genuine gift and not me trying to profit from there problems.

Good day people!

[William Lawson]

A where exactly did I say you said that?

#186

[Tim the Mage]

#186

Er...no. I didn't say you said that there...where did I say it?

[Cuddles]

Critical thinking needs to be backed up with education or it is just an exercise or ignorance, ego and prejudice.

I suggest you educate yourself on what critical thinking actually is, you appear to be exercising your ignorance rather a lot here.

[stevieten]

[

[Matt]

[
]

[farmersboy]

Indeed.

Um....

[William Lawson]

I suggest you educate yourself on what critical thinking actually is, you appear to be exercising your ignorance rather a lot here.

(...just an exercise 'of' ignorance etc...not 'or'.Typing error.
Well spotted! O0)

[Admin]

MLM is not a sales business

That's true!


it is a teaching and mentoring business. I don't care where people get there info from just so long as they have the tools and skills to be successful. I just offer generic help for free because there is so much hype at there, most if which is rubbish and if it is free then it genuine gift and not me trying to profit from there problems.

There's also a related industry that operates along side MLM scams and that's the one where 'MLM gurus' are selling 'insider secrets' and '10 proven tips for making money in MLM' and such like to those who are still in the grip of MLM's impossible dream.

I wonder if 'free generic help' is a marketing tool to entice people in to buy the killer 'insider secrets'?

It's all just another way of scamming people out of their money.

[Tim the Mage]

That's true!



There's also a related industry that operates along side MLM scams and that's the one where 'MLM gurus' are selling 'insider secrets' and '10 proven tips for making money in MLM' and such like to those who are still in the grip of MLM's impossible dream.

I wonder if 'free generic help' is a marketing tool to entice people in to buy the killer 'insider secrets'?

It's all just another way of scamming people out of their money.

In some ways it's more sinister than that and sits alongside the various advice scams promoted through direct marketing ('how to be a property millionaire in two years', 'I made millions playing the stock market - in my spare time!', etc.) Most of these scams are selling almost nothing (at least with MLM schemes you get something even if that's not what you're really buying). The free stuff is important because it whets the appetite - at each stage a tantalising glimpse of the occult secrets that can be your is given and the gullible reader believes that by joining the club or spending the money they will discover the secret of making millions without effort.

'Free' MLM expert sites also use more benign (but equally exploitative) approaches such as selling books and courses plus a great deal of advertising. I suspect also that the common links to various MLM outlets are also paid for - but can't be sure.

[bindeweede]

In some ways it's more sinister than that and sits alongside the various advice scams promoted through direct marketing ('how to be a property millionaire in two years', 'I made millions playing the stock market - in my spare time!', etc.) Most of these scams are selling almost nothing (at least with MLM schemes you get something even if that's not what you're really buying). The free stuff is important because it whets the appetite - at each stage a tantalising glimpse of the occult secrets that can be your is given and the gullible reader believes that by joining the club or spending the money they will discover the secret of making millions without effort.

'Free' MLM expert sites also use more benign (but equally exploitative) approaches such as selling books and courses plus a great deal of advertising. I suspect also that the common links to various MLM outlets are also paid for - but can't be sure.

Well, in spite of all I have read, I'm going for this - only £39.99!!!!!!




"HOW I EARN £14,576.92 PER MONTH!"
Award Winning Entrepreneur Reveals His Proven Secrets of How
He Makes a Combined Average of £14,576.92 EVERY MONTH - Guaranteed !!!
and how I do it working less than 2 hours per day



And more...



You will be amazed how simple these methods are. Its working now for me and the few average people like you and I. And I guarantee it will work for anyone who is willing to try and with my guide it is really hard to fail!

“Since you have everything to gain and nothing to lose BUY IT NOW!!!




I REALLY don't think it is a scam!



http://www.earncashathome.co.uk/
















But then,..........;D;D;D

[Matt]

Just like MLM these schemes have the potential to work but sellign the idea after already being first to market and tapping most of the potential from a workable idea is just a way to milk more money out of it. SOmetimes thre may be some good lessons in the scheme that you can adapt and incorporate into to your own business plan. Sometimes however they're just scam.

http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-08-24/

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Well, in spite of all I have read, I'm going for this - only £39.99!!!!!!






But then,..........;D;D;D


I think he has 365 people sending him £39.99 each month.

[filippo lippi]

On a mailing group I belong to we had a member spam the list about some awful pyramid scheme (website at http://www.mandvutilities.co.uk). He started out with the claim that he made £600 per month from two hours work, but then admitted that it was actually 28 hours works. When I pointed out he was earning less than minimum wage he got all huffy and started throwing about the usual stuff about "you're close minded, others will take up this fantastic offer... yadda yadda yadda."

He's now selling some sort of miracle chocolate bar.

[Tim the Mage]

And more...




I REALLY don't think it is a scam!



http://www.earncashathome.co.uk/



Fantastic copy tho'...presses every buzzer and uses every technique to hook the punter without ever saying quite what you'll be doing!! Almost (but not quite) worth the $39.99 just to read some more!8)

[polomint38]

The video was not posted by me but by another unscrupulous person.

This seems like an admission of being unscrupulous, if my knowledge of the English language is correct.:smiley:

[Tim the Mage]

...aaaah. The essence of MLM!

[bindeweede]

...aaaah. The essence of MLM!

This suggests it is not just the small man who falls for scams.


Some of the world's wealthiest private and corporate investors are reported to be victims of an alleged $50bn fraud by Wall Street broker Bernard Madoff.


Under a Ponzi scheme, also known as a pyramid scheme, investors are promised very high returns on their investment, while in reality early investors are paid with money collected from later investors. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7781086.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

[Blackhead]

Are all MLM or Network Marketing companies scams?

[Legaleagle]

Are all MLM or Network Marketing companies scams?

I think this would depend upon how the scheme were sold to the individual. If you are told from the outset that you will be working a commission based door to door sales job at a very low rate of pay without any substantive support from the organisation employing you then that would not be a scam.

However, you will find most MLM's don't operate in that way. Instead, you will be promised vast wealth for developing something called a "downline", which has been proved time and again to be a pipe dream, whilst at the same time charging you cash for motivational CD's, books and meetings and for ever more unsaleable stock in pursuit of this elusive "downline". In the end you will either leave the MLM having lost money, or turn into a monomaniacal bore in the pursuit of the chimera of the "downline".

Either way, steer clear.