Madeleine McCann: here come the psychic predators.

[Admin]

Well, it normally takes around 7 to 10 days after a murder or missing person case has been in the news before the psychics start coming out of the woodwork hoping to cash in on others' misfortune.

True to form, we have our first one today. A reader has sent me this link to the GMTV forums: http://chatroom.gm.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=477&page=30&p=5143

I've never heard of Stuart Higman nor does he come up on Google but he's made a few claims here and indicated that he's passed his 'info' on to the police.

Just in case the posting gets removed by GMTV here's a copy:


To whom it may concern

I am a practicing medium and on Wed 2 May at 0730 I had a vision of a very young girl with shoulder length blonde hair sitting between a white male and white female in the rear of a white car (possibly Mercedes style), the girl was wearing a red top and white bottoms. I would describe both the female and male as being of medium build with brown hair both IC1. I also saw another male who I would describe as being of slim build, dark skinned, black hair(possible moustache) wearing a white top, this male I feel I could produce a photofit, he was attempting to conceal himself behind a while wall next to a broken vent/shutter.

At this time I felt a great sense of fear or despair.

On Sun 6 May I saw the same dark skinned male looking out from either a balcony or doorway, he appeared to be looking down a road lined with white walled houses with red flowers in baskets hanging on the walls. The road was going down hill towards a communal/shopping area next to the sea.

On Mon 7 May I saw blue sky and a sandy beach with crowds of people wandering around of all different nationalities, a carrousel and a child wrapped in a fawn coloured blanket and the number 49. I'm unsure as to whether it is door number or part of a vehicle registration number as I had glimpses of this sequence E 49 NM.

I have attempted to forward this information onto someone in authority and it was given to the Staff of Gosport Police Station at 0815 today in the hope they would forward it on and I hope they have. Please do not dismiss this email as a hoax, I can ashore you it is not I have recently completed 22yrs service in the Royal Navy as a Service Policeman which can be substantiated.

As to Madeleine's whereabouts I believe she is currently in TOULOUSE, FRANCE.

I forward this email to you in the hope you find her safe and well and she is returned safe to her family.

Regards

[vbloke]

Well, it normally takes around 7 to 10 days after a murder or missing person case has been in the news before the psychics start coming out of the woodwork hoping to cash in on others' misfortune.

True to form, we have our first one today. A reader has sent me this link to the GMTV forums: http://chatroom.gm.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=477&page=30&p=5143

I've never heard of Stuart Higman nor does he come up on Google but he's made a few claims here and indicated that he's passed his 'info' on to the police.

In these cases, "passing info" usually means "I phoned the official helpline and told them my vague impressions" - anything that can be retrofitted after the event.

I really do wonder why people like this aren't prosecuted for wasting police time.

[tkingdoll]

Christ, why the hell can't these people differentiate between 'overactive imagination' and 'special ability'?

[Araneus]

Please do not dismiss this email as a hoax, I can ashore you it is not I have recently completed 22yrs service in the Royal Navy as a Service Policeman which can be substantiated.

Well that's good enough for me. I can't think of any better qualification for a psychic than being a semi-literate retired Navy Policeman.

[Admin]

On reading the thread there was one respondent who claims to have emailed Uri Geller because he has a well-known reputation for dowsing over maps - and someone stated that the 'well-respected' psychic Sally Morgan should be called in.

On the whole though, despite how atrocious the level of thinking on the topic is on there, there is not much said about psychics etc.

Perhaps this is a good sign as it shows that even the GMTV demographic is not really sold on the idea of psychic detectives.

[Jocky]

a white male and white female in the rear of a white car ... I also saw another male

This is of course the exact composition of the suspect group seen on CCTV who the Police are already trying to trace.

Recycling info already in the public domain, with the intention of claiming it as a 'hit'. How lame can you get ::)

[Admin]

I thought things were getting a little overdue. Here we go:

I saw this on the JREF: http://www.holymoly.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=526&Itemid=9


Hi,
We've just had this great story come about a couple of our clients and thought that it may be of interest to you.
Two UK psychic detectives have arrived in Portugal in a bid to help track down missing toddler Madeleine McCann.
Amanda Hart from St Albans and Ben Murphy from Watford believe their psychic powers could provide the missing key in finding the three year old who has been missing since last Thursday.
Madeleine is believed to have been taken from her bed while her parents were eating at a nearby restaurant close to their holiday apartment in the Algarve village of Praia da Luz in Portugal.
They had been regularly checking on her and their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie, before she went missing.
Amanda Hart, who has appeared on Tricia Goddards Psychic Challenge and regularly presented her own psychic radio show, says she has been receiving vital clues as to the childs whereabouts. Her partner, Ben Murphy who was involved in helping track down the murderer of teenager Sally Anne Bowman last year, has also had psychic impressions of her location.
The pair arrived in Portugal on Friday and are hoping to use Amanda’s ability as a psychic ‘tracker’ to help find Madeleine.
Spokesman Kizzi Nkwocha said: “Both Amanda and Ben have proven their psychic abilities beyond any doubt. They now hope to use these powers to help find Madeleine. Any information they get will be made available to the authorities in Portugal.”
If you'd like any further information about Amanda and Ben or news of their progress, please feel free to contact Kizzi Nkwocha on the following number or email.
Kizzi Nkwocha
Tel: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.prhq.co.uk (http://www.prhq.co.uk/)Amanda Hart who featured on Britain's Psychic Challenge (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=britains_psychic_challeng e) and Ben Murphy who was one of the psychic detectives who involved himself in the Sally Anne Bowman (http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/topstories/display.var.738005.0.sally_annes_mum_begs_police_t o_listen_to_medium.php) case with the likes of Joe Power. Of course they were wildly wrong as was shown when Mark Dixie was arrested for the murder (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=06-06#jpb).

[BeverlyM]

I do think it is about time that psychic and intuitive gifts received some respect on this site. I was the person who wrote on the GMTV site that I had emailed Uri Geller to ask if he might be able to dowse a map for Madeleine's whereabouts. There is a growing body of valid and recorded work by (a handful of) exceptional psychics who have quietly worked with police in the past, and who have proven their ability and results. We are right to be sceptical, but not to the point of arrogance; after all, we are most of us using a fraction of our mental and intuitive capacity - on a planet which at times is very far from 'human' or decent in the way it should be. Some of us have breaking hearts at what has happened to Madeleine; we look for ways to help. I do know personally several gifted intuitives who are trying to tune in and help - quietly, and certainly not for money. I do think that should be respected and welcomed because already some information is coming forward which could be vital. Our prayers for Madeleine and her family are also needed every day.

[vbloke]

I do think it is about time that psychic and intuitive gifts received some respect on this site.
I agree - as soon as any can show they even have any ability.


I was the person who wrote on the GMTV site that I had emailed Uri Geller to ask if he might be able to dowse a map for Madeleine's whereabouts.
You do realise that Geller is a 100% fraud (http://skepdic.com/geller.html), don't you? He has been debunked time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo) and again (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_062.html).


There is a growing body of valid and recorded work by (a handful of) exceptional psychics who have quietly worked with police in the past, and who have proven their ability and results.
Then where is this proof? If any so called psychic had definitively proved they had their claimed ability, it would be worldwide headline news.

Also, the police have clearly stated that they do not use psychics (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47).


We are right to be sceptical, but not to the point of arrogance; after all, we are most of us using a fraction of our mental and intuitive capacity - on a planet which at times is very far from 'human' or decent in the way it should be.
I'm skeptical because there is no proof. Show me some and I'll change my tune.

If you're referring to the "we only use 10% of our brain" myth, I'm afraid that's been debunked many times over as well (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm).



Some of us have breaking hearts at what has happened to Madeleine; we look for ways to help.
I really hope that she is found alive and well - but I can guarantee that it won't be because of any psychic.


I do know personally several gifted intuitives who are trying to tune in and help - quietly, and certainly not for money. I do think that should be respected and welcomed because already some information is coming forward which could be vital. Our prayers for Madeleine and her family are also needed every day.
Tell them to contact us here then and we can arrange to test them - it needn't be for the JREF $1 million (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) - we can test them free of any negative connotations with the JREF challenge.

I'm afraid that praying won't help either (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece) - the only thing that will is if she is found alive and well. If she is, you can claim that prayer works, if not, it would never be mentioned that the prayers didn't work.

Personally, I hope she is found alive - any such incident involving a child is a tragedy and I hope that this is resolved quickly for the parents and child's sake, but no amount of prayer or psychic ability will bring her back any quicker.

[Admin]

Beverly,

Having good intentions and being a well-meaning person is all good and well but having good intentions does not necessarily lead to making good decisions.

When someone goes missing or is abducted (as seems to be the case with Madeleine) it is vital that as many resources as possible are used in the search in the most efficient way. i.e. a proven, systematic approach. This is the best way, although sadly not always successful, of finding the missing person.

Now, there is an argument that anything and/or everything that can be possibly done is worth a try. It sounds reasonable, but is it?

I say no. The reason being that resources are finite and they need to be targeted in the most appropriate areas of investigation to maximise the chance of a successful outcome.

One of the biggest wastes of resources would be if the police started opening up areas of inquiry on the 'information' of psychics. The reason I say this is because (despite what you may believe) psychics cannot actually do what they claim to do.

As skeptics we deal in facts. If the facts supported the idea that psychics were of any use in solving missing persons (or indeed any other) cases then we would be joining you in calling for their use. But the facts do not support psychics' claims.

That's a practical reason for opposing the use of psychics in these cases. Their input would be useless; and if followed, would lead to a waste of police time and resources and make a successful outcome less likely.

There's also the emotional damage they cause to families. See Kelly Jolkowski's blog (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/).

And also, many psychics involve themselves with these high-profile cases as they're great for free publicity, which is helped by a credulous media who report their involvement in these cases but never follow up the story when the psychic fails.

For a few examples of how psychics' claims don't match reality see:

Diane Lazarus:
The Mark Green case (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=Diane_Lazarus_the_Mark_Green_case.php).
The Muriel Drinkwater case (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=Diane_Lazarus_the_Muriel_Drinkwater_case.p hp) and here (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=05-06#lazarus).
The Ipswich murders (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=12-06#Ipswich_murders).

Joe Power:
Lyndsey Quy murder (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=05-06#power).
Sally Anne Bowman case (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=06-06#jpb).

And what about this piece of stupidity from Geller:
Clairvoyant led Americans to Saddam (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=11-06#geller).

And another article with links to all sorts of psychic claims:
The skeptic express: psychic detectives or psychic predators? (http://www.theskepticexpress.com/psychic_detectives_or_psychic_predators.php)

So, that should make it fairly clear that these psychics are not only useless in these cases but are in fact a hindrance. Nothing they come up with can be trusted as accurate, and all they're really in it for is the publicity and a self-serving image boost.

So no, we do not 'respect' these people and most of us hold them in utter contempt. They are simply using other people's grief for their own ends. Which is utterly disgusting.

[BeverlyM]

I'm interested to see so much hard-core scepticism here (although,
given the title of the site, that should not be surprising). However,
if you would like to see some valuable psychic work why not go to
the following site: www.caroleverett.com (http://www.caroleverett.com). You will see there psychic
drawings produced before any police evidence which are well worth
your consideration.

It is so sad and inappropriate to dismiss the fact that there are some
gifted people who can help in these dreadful cases, and have done so.
It is simply not true that 'police don't use psychic help'. They do, and
there is well-documented material to prove it. (I don't have time to give you publications and authors, but they most certainly exist and
can be found through most public libraries.)

Surely, if the human race is to progress beyond its more pitiful and
horrific elements, we need an open mind as to how we can move
beyond the present stage of very limited human and spiritual development? There was a time, after all, when radio waves were thought impossible, and before that time, that the motor car would combust if it went faster than 12 mph. You see my trend. There is no excuse for blind ignorance and closed minds. I'm sorry to have found it on your site and especially in connection with this terrible tragedy.

[BeverlyM]

A PS if I may: The Yoga tradition over thousands of years describes the human being as having multi-dimensions. Not just the physical but also subtle energy fields, chakras, mental/emotional body, etheric body.
The third eye in this system is acknowledged as potentially opening and
developing so that intuition and inner-seeing becomes possible. (I have
been privileged to experience the third-eye and it is a glorious, rainbow-coloured, pulsing, moving wheel). Within this model, Light is acknowledged as being real, accessible and potentially part of healing
energy. Unless a person can study this philosophy, and move from the
three-dimensional view of the human, to one which includes four and
perhaps even more dimensions, then the logical perspective only will
prevail. It is rather like trying to explain the depth and nature of the
oceans to someone who insists that only the boat and the surface of the water is real.

The existing literature on out-of-body experiences also relates to this philosophy, and is the subject of clinical research through Dr. Peter Fenwick and his colleagues at Charing Cross Hospital, currently with cardiac arrest patients. Peter Fenwick's publications are listed on Amazon for reference. His work, as I understand it, is to research the
possibility that consciousness exists independently of the physical brain. Again, the research he presents is well worth reading in the
context of material under discussion (and the sceptical ridicule, it might be said) on this site.

[Admin]

I'm interested to see so much hard-core scepticism here

Are you equating skepticism with disbelief?

One of the main features of those who attack skepticism is that they don't know what it is.


However,
if you would like to see some valuable psychic work why not go to
the following site: www.caroleverett.com (http://www.caroleverett.com/). You will see there psychic
drawings produced before any police evidence which are well worth
your consideration. Certainly. I'll have a look.


It is so sad and inappropriate to dismiss the fact that there are some gifted people who can help in these dreadful casesIt certainly would be sad and inappropriate if such people existed.


It is simply not true that 'police don't use psychic help'. They do, and
there is well-documented material to prove it.See: Police use of psychics (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=police_and_psychics.php).

Your claim, that you're too busy to back up, is at odds with what the police themselves actually say.


Surely, if the human race is to progress beyond its more pitiful and
horrific elements, we need an open mind as to how we can move
beyond the present stage of very limited human and spiritual development?An open mind (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php)?

Funny how the credulous always think they're 'open minded'.


There was a time, after all, when radio waves were thought impossible, and before that time, that the motor car would combust if it went faster than 12 mph. You see my trend. I'll fill in the details for you. "Skeptics thought the earth was flat".

It's a very naive argument, but another big favourite of credophiles.


There is no excuse for blind ignorance and closed minds. Then perhaps you ought to open yours and realise that believing in things that are false is not such a smart thing to do.


I'm sorry to have found it on your site and especially in connection with this terrible tragedyAll I can say is that it's a bloody good job that the police (etc.) don't listen to fantasy-prone credophiles like you. As it is at least Madeleine has a chance of being found - if we went along with your psychic fantasy she'd have no hope.

Like I said, having good intentions is one thing but making good, rational, sound decisions is another.

Thankfully, most of us live in the real world.

[Dr B]

Beverely

There are (at least) two issues here. Firstly, no one here is theoretically against the possibility that psychic ability could exist. However, there is no reliable scientific evidence to suggest that it does - and so there is a high probability that it does not exist.

The second issue is to do with psychics using sad events like this to promote themselves and their belief systems. This is where most of us here start to feel very uncomfortable.

Vbloke and John have studied psychics and their claims from both here and the USA for some years and they are well aware of how psychics have failed with police cases. If you want to make the argument that some have been sucessful then please do return and provide scientific references for us to consider.

I think you might enjoy a discussion on psychic ability more than one on these charletons being real. O0

[vbloke]

I'm interested to see so much hard-core scepticism here (although, given the title of the site, that should not be surprising). However, if you would like to see some valuable psychic work why not go to the following site: www.caroleverett.com (http://www.caroleverett.com). You will see there psychic
drawings produced before any police evidence which are well worth
your consideration.
None of those drawings look anything like the suspects photos and it is very easy to retrofit something on the web after the fact. This proves nothing unless these drawings were done under controlled conditions.

Ask yourself why these psychics only go after the high profile cases - why don't they go for after the missing people who don't make it into the news, or help solve the low-key murders that we see every day in various newspapers. They don't because these cases are not high profile enough. If they really can do what they say they can, why not help as many people as possible, instead of only the high profile cases?
Why are they never mentioned as being key to investigations except by themselves?
Could it be because they're only in it for fame and themselves?


It is so sad and inappropriate to dismiss the fact that there are some gifted people who can help in these dreadful cases, and have done so.
It is simply not true that 'police don't use psychic help'. They do, and there is well-documented material to prove it. (I don't have time to give you publications and authors, but they most certainly exist and can be found through most public libraries.)

There are gifted people who can help in these dreadful cases - they're called the police. Let them do their job without bombarding them with potentially useless and misleading information.

Using the Freedom of Information Act, we have statements from the major police forces saying they DO NOT use psychics. Falsifying an FOI request is illegal. Make your own mind up as to who is telling the truth.

If you have this proof, please supply it. It is not for us to prove otherwise, since you are making the claim.


Surely, if the human race is to progress beyond its more pitiful and horrific elements, we need an open mind as to how we can move beyond the present stage of very limited human and spiritual development? There was a time, after all, when radio waves were thought impossible, and before that time, that the motor car would combust if it went faster than 12 mph. You see my trend. There is no excuse for blind ignorance and closed minds. I'm sorry to have found it on your site and especially in connection with this terrible tragedy.
Typical "science doesn't know everything" canards don't help your case.
No psychic EVER has been able to reliably replicate or produce results that stand up to scrutiny.

We here are fully prepared to change our minds if evidence comes to light regarding psychic powers, which is why we demand empirical evidence. It is people like you who are closed minded, refusing to see that there is no evidence for their claims, only anecdote and hearsay that does not stand up to scrutiny.

Like I said before, if psychic powers existed, it would be front page news throughout the world. Why do you think that we have never seen those headlines?

If we are to progress, don't you think it's time to put aside our superstitions and live in the real world and not a fantasy world where fairies and unicorns live?

If you open your mind, you'll actually see that there exists the possibility that there is no psychic or supernatural phenomena. Are you prepared to accept that premise?

[Admin]

A PS if I may: The Yoga tradition over thousands of years describes the human being as having multi-dimensions. Not just the physical but also subtle energy fields, chakras, mental/emotional body, etheric body.

It's a belief system - none of which has been shown to be real.

When you invoke 'energies' etc. that cannot be detected you're into the realm of magical thinking.

Believing in something does not make it true.


The existing literature on out-of-body experiences also relates to this philosophy, and is the subject of clinical research through Dr. Peter Fenwick and his colleagues at Charing Cross Hospital, currently with cardiac arrest patients. Peter Fenwick's publications are listed on Amazon for reference. His work, as I understand it, is to research the
possibility that consciousness exists independently of the physical brain. Again, the research he presents is well worth reading in the
context of material under discussion (and the sceptical ridicule, it might be said) on this site.

Yes we've heard of Peter Fenwick. My colleague on here, Dr B, who's a neuroscientist, is less than impressed with Fenwick's work.

[Dr B]

Peter Fenwick's publications are listed on Amazon for reference. His work, as I understand it, is to research the
possibility that consciousness exists independently of the physical brain. Again, the research he presents is well worth reading in the
context of material under discussion (and the sceptical ridicule, it might be said) on this site.

Beverely

This is quite wrong. Please take the time to read many of the interesting threads around here and you will see I and others have discussed the logical and factual errors in the reasoning of Fenwick and colleagues. They have no evidence for anything - only their convinction that they want it to be true!!!

Thankfully, science has a better way of researching things O0
Please take the time to read the threads and the main website. If you require any clarification on any issues - please dont hesitate to ask. It is often a good place to start. 8)

[edit] I am also slightly worried that you seem to accept Fenwick's work in an unquestioned manner. Is this merely because you see it as confirming your pre-existing belief system?

[Admin]

http://www.caroleverett.com/maddy-mccann.htm

This particular psychic/healer/intuitive/aura reading/channeller/energy worker/astrologer/etc. seems to have her own gimmick used to convince the gullible that she 'helps the police'.

She makes drawings of the suspects in advance of the criminals being caught. This gimmick is not unique but at least we can safely say that they are predictions to some degree as we won't know what the perpetrators of the crime look like until they're caught.

Of course, there are descriptions of suspects in the media so it might just be worth drawing pictures that match these descriptions.

Looking at the 'picture ID gallery' however, shows that a great deal of subjective license (and a great deal of credulity) is required to make the match between the real person and the drawing.

I also notice that Carol Everett is yet another psychic who claims to have helped with the Soham murders. ::)

Well, I've saved the web page and the photo predictions so we can come back to this when/if this case is ever solved.

[BeverlyM]

If you didn't think a great deal of Carol Everett's work (personally, I found it exceptionally accurate and convincing) - why not take a look at:

Police turn to psychics to solve crimes:

2 May 2007: www.newsmonster.co.uk (http://www.newsmonster.co.uk)


A very authentic piece. However, I don't expect or even want anyone
to be 'convinced'. This is a personal issue for each of us and we can only wish one another "Shalom" in the journey, which I do.

You may also wish to research Dr. Peter Fenwick's work, currently with
cardiac arrest patients at the Charing Cross Hospital - researching
consciousness independent of the brain. He has written widely on out-of-body experiences and his work is especially recommended. There is
evidence to be found and I do encourage to look at the more serious and ethical side of this whole question - it is far too important for simplistic answers, as I'm sure you will agree. Yoga philosophy will take readers down a similar route to a definition of consciousness and the human being far beyond our three-dimensional world. Decide for ourselves? Of course, but not from the forum of the tabloids.

[Admin]

Well this is getting a little off topic. Someone's personal spiritual enlightenment (or journey into delusion depending on how you look at it) has nothing to do with self-proclaimed psychics finding missing persons.

Unless Carol Everett's drawings are spot on, and they certainly are anything but, then they serve no purpose other than to bolster her claims after the event to those gullible enough to see a likeness in pictures that isn't there.

[vbloke]

If you didn't think a great deal of Carol Everett's work (personally, I found it exceptionally accurate and convincing)
You find it convincing because you do not question her actions, motives or reasoning. I have looked through her site and found vague statements, terrible connections that are supposed to be "uncanny" and half-truths.


why not take a look at:

Police turn to psychics to solve crimes:

2 May 2007: www.newsmonster.co.uk (http://www.newsmonster.co.uk)[/URL]

A very authentic piece. However, I don't expect or even want anyone
to be 'convinced'. This is a personal issue for each of us and we can only wish one another "Shalom" in the journey, which I do.
see [URL="http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11624#post11624"]here (http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11624#post11624)


You may also wish to research Dr. Peter Fenwick's work, currently with
cardiac arrest patients at the Charing Cross Hospital - researching
consciousness independent of the brain. He has written widely on out-of-body experiences and his work is especially recommended. There is
evidence to be found and I do encourage to look at the more serious and ethical side of this whole question - it is far too important for simplistic answers, as I'm sure you will agree. Yoga philosophy will take readers down a similar route to a definition of consciousness and the human being far beyond our three-dimensional world. Decide for ourselves? Of course, but not from the forum of the tabloids.
Yet you quote from tabloids as your proof and evidence.

Dr Fenwick, as DrB here will tell you (and already has) is guilty of very faulty reasoning and his methods are highly suspect.

There is evidence to be found here - but I can predict you won't look at any of it (as you've already proved with the police use psychics line again and again) whereas we have looked at your links and examined the evidence within and given you our opinions. You have not, you simply repeat the same tired arguments even when presented with evidence to the contrary.

[atheistgirl]

Hi,

This is my first post!

Could this be the Stuart Higman in question? Fits the description.

Image1 - guy in vehicle wearing beret
Image2 - wearing combats, crouched in foreground
Image3 - article taken from a Royal Navy newsletter about a charity event

There is a Stuart Higman listed in the captions for all 3 of these pictures, seems like the same person to me. Wonder why he's no longer in the Royal Navy, he looks too young to have retired, and judging by the date of the newsletter, he's only very recently ex-Navy.

Doesn't seem like he's currently a 'professional psychic'. He may genuinely believe he has magic powers, in which case he's the one in need of help, and I mean that sincerely. There are a lot of con-artists willing to prey on the vulnerable but it's easy to forget that there are also a lot of self-deluded people, who actually need help themselves.

AtheistGirl

[Cuddles]

A PS if I may: The Yoga tradition over thousands of years describes the human being as having multi-dimensions. Not just the physical but also subtle energy fields, chakras, mental/emotional body, etheric body.
The third eye in this system is acknowledged as potentially opening and
developing so that intuition and inner-seeing becomes possible. (I have
been privileged to experience the third-eye and it is a glorious, rainbow-coloured, pulsing, moving wheel). Within this model, Light is acknowledged as being real, accessible and potentially part of healing
energy. Unless a person can study this philosophy, and move from the
three-dimensional view of the human, to one which includes four and
perhaps even more dimensions, then the logical perspective only will
prevail. It is rather like trying to explain the depth and nature of the
oceans to someone who insists that only the boat and the surface of the water is real.

The existing literature on out-of-body experiences also relates to this philosophy, and is the subject of clinical research through Dr. Peter Fenwick and his colleagues at Charing Cross Hospital, currently with cardiac arrest patients. Peter Fenwick's publications are listed on Amazon for reference. His work, as I understand it, is to research the
possibility that consciousness exists independently of the physical brain. Again, the research he presents is well worth reading in the
context of material under discussion (and the sceptical ridicule, it might be said) on this site.

Nope.

[Jocky]

Nope.

If anyone is interested in some of the detail behind Cuddles' pithy comment, there's a relevant thread here (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=748) containing recent discussion on Fenwick's work. Some good reasons there to question the validity of his conclusions.

[Admin]

There is a Stuart Higman listed in the captions for all 3 of these pictures, seems like the same person to me. Wonder why he's no longer in the Royal Navy, he looks too young to have retired, and judging by the date of the newsletter, he's only very recently ex-Navy.

It's quite possible it's him although of course it could be someone else with the same name.

If a military career begins at age 18 then the ex-military person would only be 40 after serving 22 years so wouldn't necessarily look particularly old.

Good find though AtheistGirl. O0

[cheznath]

http://www.caroleverett.com/maddy-mccann.htm

This particular psychic/healer/intuitive/aura reading/channeller/energy worker/astrologer/etc. seems to have her own gimmick used to convince the gullible that she 'helps the police'.

She makes drawings of the suspects in advance of the criminals being caught. This gimmick is not unique but at least we can safely say that they are predictions to some degree as we won't know what the perpetrators of the crime look like until they're caught.

Of course, there are descriptions of suspects in the media so it might just be worth drawing pictures that match these descriptions.

Looking at the 'picture ID gallery' however, shows that a great deal of subjective license (and a great deal of credulity) is required to make the match between the real person and the drawing.

I also notice that Carol Everett is yet another psychic who claims to have helped with the Soham murders. ::)

Well, I've saved the web page and the photo predictions so we can come back to this when/if this case is ever solved.

(New to the conversation)
Well John, I do not pretend that Carol Everett is a credible psychic but I think in order for you to fully understand what a psychic (I like the word medium better) is and what kind of abilities they have, I strongly invite you and all your skeptic friends to experience at least one meeting with a "recognized" medium and then comment on it. Of course, the idea is that you meet with someone with real abilities and I trust you won't have any problems finding one. Why am I suggesting this? Because I have done it myself and I now have a different view on the subject. I will spare you the details on my experience. This is just a suggestion.
(excuse my average English, I'm a French living in the US) :cheesy:

[Jocky]

(New to the conversation)

Hi Cheznath, and welcome to UKS


I strongly invite you and all your skeptic friends to experience at least one meeting with a "recognized" medium and then comment on it. Of course, the idea is that you meet with someone with real abilities and I trust you won't have any problems finding one.

As a skeptic friend of John's, might I ask how can we can tell whether or not someone has "real" abilities? If we can't tell the difference between "real" mediums and fakes, it will be difficult to find one to meet ...

[Dr B]

What makes this person think we have not worked with mediums for years before and based our comments on detailed observation? :-\

[Jocky]

What makes this person think we have not worked with mediums for years before and based our comments on detailed observation? :-\

It's obvious, Doc - all the ones we've worked with before have been charlatans. Cheznath has visited a real medium, and think that if we have the same experience then the scales will fall from our eyes.

::)

[Mongrel]

Oh look, the "Don't knock it until you've tried it! (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/11/doggerel-46-dont-knock-woo-before-you.html)"

From the link,


I'm often asked to try some form of woo, usually quackery, before I knock it, as if my personal experience will invalidate the absence of controlled studies or even the presence of several negative studies.

[Cuddles]

psychic (I like the word medium better)

You do realise that "psychic" and "medium" are not the same thing at all? A psychic is anyone who can communicate with someone or something using only their mind. A medium is someone who talks to the dead, either psychically or simply by somehow conjuring them up and talking to them normally. A medium may be a psychic and a psychic may be a medium, but there is not necessarily any overlap. If you are going to try to argue about the validity of them, don't you think you should actually know what you are talking about first?

[vbloke]

(New to the conversation)
Well John, I do not pretend that Carol Everett is a credible psychic but I think in order for you to fully understand what a psychic (I like the word medium better) is and what kind of abilities they have, I strongly invite you and all your skeptic friends to experience at least one meeting with a "recognized" medium and then comment on it. Of course, the idea is that you meet with someone with real abilities and I trust you won't have any problems finding one. Why am I suggesting this? Because I have done it myself and I now have a different view on the subject. I will spare you the details on my experience. This is just a suggestion.
(excuse my average English, I'm a French living in the US) :cheesy:

I have. Several times in fact.

The "recognised" psychic I visited works in one of the UK's top department stores (what more credentials do you need?) and she was, as you would expect, useless in the presence of a skeptic (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=Selfridges_a_psychic_sisters_reading.php).

Also, I have met with and had a demonstration of Derek Ogilvie's powers. He did a private reading, just before I was on TV with him.
Once again, in the presence of a skeptic, his powers mysteriously failed him (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=Derek_Ogilvie_on_GMTV.php).

Now why do you think that when someone who knows how cold reading works, psychics and mediums abilities stop working? Could it possibly be that they do not have these claimed powers, but are instead cold reading?

[Mojo]

Why am I suggesting this? Because I have done it myself and I now have a different view on the subject. I will spare you the details on my experience.
Why are you "sparing us the details"? Are you concerned that perhaps others may not find your medium as convincing as you did?

If I had a penny for every time I've seen someone claim to know of a "genuine" psychic or medium and then refuse to provide any futher information about them I'd...

Well, I'd have at least 10p.

[Admin]

Why am I suggesting this? Because I have done it myself and I now have a different view on the subject. I will spare you the details on my experience. This is just a suggestion.

We've all heard the "you've got to try it for yourself" claim many times and for more than just investigating the claims of psychics. You get the same line from those who believe in all sorts of other unproven and implausible ideas such as alternative remedies.

The major flaw with this approach is that people go into it with an "I cannot be fooled" preconception saying things like, "I won't believe any psychic unless they can tell me things they couldn't possibly have known".

Of course, psychics are actually very good at presenting the illusion of telling people things that they couldn't possibly have known. Now here lies the real problem with this approach: unless you know how the illusion occurs, it's very easy to accept it as being real (!)

It's not simply a question of other people fooling us, we have to also take into consideration how we fool ourselves.

Psychologists have discovered many ways that our perception can be fooled; the most familiar ones to most people being the optical illusions. They're quite easy to demonstrate even if the explanation is not known.

Much harder to demonstrate and explain are the cognitive illusions. These occur because our brains seem to be 'hard wired' to use short-cuts in processing information we receive. This can lead us to form conclusions that seem fine but are often wildly inaccurate.

A quick example (using French names just for you):

If I wanted to appear psychic I would say something like: "I'm getting a link to the names Pierre and Marcel, I sense they have some meaning for you....".

If you can find any way to link to those names it might seem like a powerful psychic hit as there's no way I could have known before hand. The reason it would seem powerful is because of what's known as Subjective Validation (where a person places personal meaning on vague information simply because it was directed at them).

If you look at the statement though, all it's really stating is, "do you know anyone called Pierre or Marcel?" It's what's known as a veiled question.

That's because the 'statement' is left open-ended for you to apply the meaning to it.

It's simple, it's clever, but it's highly deceptive and if you don't know how it, and many other similar techniques in psychic readings, work then you're a sitting duck for a good reader.

"You've got to try it for yourself" is definitely not the way to approach these matters.

[Admin]

From here: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=51251&in_page_id=34


Police in Portugal are trawling through hoards of emails and messages from clairvoyants who say they know the location of missing Madeleine McCann, a spokesman said today. The Policia Judiciara (PJ) said they had two dossiers, 8cm thick, of apparent visions and sightings of the little girl. They are trying to find out if one of the messages could be from the kidnapper.

The involvement of psychics in the case emerged as four weeks passed since the four-year-old was snatched from her bed. PJ spokesman Olegario Sousa said each clairvoyant claim was being taken seriously. Asked if he thought they could be from Madeleine's abductor, he said: "That is one of the reasons that we cannot discard anything. "We must check them all in case it might be from the kidnapper. "But the problem is the same, if there are indications which are enough to follow then we will go. "If there isn't, we cannot do anything." Mr Sousa said some descriptions were as vague as dreams about a man in a house with trees and a road.

"Some of the information is about precise location or co-ordinates and that allows us to go to the place and we will check it. "Just a few days ago we got one address near Lagos but it didn't amount to anything." Mr Sousa said he did not believe they had heard from Madeleine's abductor: "If it was a message from the kidnapper, it will offer enough clues to help us to go to the right place."

The police spokesman said it was not unusual to investigate the claims of clairvoyants but added it was only one line of investigation. "In this case the amount of information we have received is huge," he said. "Any information that comes to us, if there is enough to follow, we will check." He said the visions - which are sent through every day - came from a mix of Portuguese and British sources. Psychics have also contacted several news organisations in the UK with the so-called visions.

The PJ is leading the investigation with the support of UK police forces. Last week they gave information to Leicestershire and Metropolitan police about an address in south London in connection with the case. Debbie Seepersad's property on Merton Road in south Norwood was searched in the belief that Madeleine may have been inside, but nothing was found. "The house did not look too bad when I got inside although my daughter's room had been ransacked a bit," she told the Croydon Advertiser. "I really thought it was a wind-up."
This shows up the fundamental problem with psychics in these cases. Just as with any other evidence/information available to them, the police are duty-bound to go through it all. Two dossiers 8cm thick is probably a hell of a lot of time-consuming work for them to do: that's time which could be spend doing something much more productive.

There's always the possibility that someone who knows something about the crime could be passing information over as if it had been gleaned psychically - but apart from a case involving an arsonist in the USA (details on www.Randi.org (http://www.Randi.org) somewhere) who was convicted because of his own 'psychic' info, I can't recall a similar case in the past. So it's highly unlikely.

I do notice however, that they're claiming that they will investigate psychics' claims that are specific - I suspect that's for the same reason: the police may suspect that the psychic has inside information (they're normally very vague).

This all ties in with the point I made earlier to someone saying that it's worth trying anything and everything in cases like this. I disagreed, and this shows why. The police are simply getting bombarded with a load of 'information', which by its very nature is to all intents and purposes worthless, and they have to spend a great deal of time sifting through it all in the slight hope of something possibly being there.

What a complete and utter waste of resources. You know, it would be interesting to see just how many man hours that were spent sifting through the psychics' prognostications. Those man-hours could have been spent doing something more useful: like attempting to solve the case by tried and tested methods.

[Araneus]

What a complete and utter waste of resources. You know, it would be interesting to see just how many man hours that were spent sifting through the psychics' prognostications. Those man-hours could have been spent doing something more useful: like attempting to solve the case by tried and tested methods.

That's exactly the problem with the equivalent situation in "counter-terrorism" operations -- it's easy to say that we need to monitor every piece of information on the planet in case it indicates terrorist activity, but the more time that the police have to waste following up email conversations from bored anarchists with no plans to actually carry out an attack, the less time they have available to investigate real leads.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6708141.stm

[Allo Allo]

From here: Debbie Seepersad's property on Merton Road in south Norwood was searched in the belief that Madeleine may have been inside, but nothing was found.
"The house did not look too bad when I got inside although my daughter's room had been ransacked a bit," she told the Croydon Advertiser.
"I really thought it was a wind-up."


I was going to say a while back that innocent people might be "fingered" by a psychic - here you have it....I would have been b****y FURIOUS!
M

[Araneus]

I didn't notice that part -- WTF? What happened to the idea of "reasonable suspicion" and getting a search warrant? Can any random charlatan just give your address to the police and suddenly your house is searched?

[Cuddles]

They are trying to find out if one of the messages could be from the kidnapper.

This is the point that most people seem to ignore. The police don't look at messages from psychics because they think they are psychic, they look at them because they think one of them might be suspect. I really can't understand why people think psychics sending crap to the police shows how psychic they are when if any of them actually knew anything it would effectively incriminate them.

[Allo Allo]

if any of them actually knew anything it would effectively incriminate them.

Now THATS a thought! :cheesy:
M

[Jocky]

This is the point that most people seem to ignore. The police don't look at messages from psychics because they think they are psychic, they look at them because they think one of them might be suspect ... if any of them actually knew anything it would effectively incriminate them.

Thanks Cuddles - the thought of one of these psychics getting arrested has brightened up my day!

[Admin]

At last!!! A voice of reason in the mainstream media.

From: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1268571,00.html


'Psychics? Try Proper Detective Work'

A British crime expert says police in Portugal should use proper detective work to find Madeleine McCann - not information from psychics.

Officers hunting for the missing four-year-old are wading through piles of information sent by mediums and following up leads.
Some psychics send map co-ordinates - but none has proved correct

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa even believes the abductor may make contact posing as a psychic. He said: "We can't put the messages in the bin, we must check them all." But Mark Williams-Thomas, a former detective, told Sky News Online: "Are they hoping that spinning a bottle or a crystal ball will help? It's mad really. "When you start believing in psychics you're saying that you've exhausted all your leads of proper, investigative detective work. "Presumably they are checking out those which carry names and contact detail. But if they think the kidnapper may contact them posing as a psychic then that's incredible.

"What leads them to suggest that? It's a very strange conclusion. "Why would the abductor give information through a psychic, or by pretending to be one? If they are wracked with guilt, why not just phone the police with the details or drop her off somewhere? "Also, would the abductor really get in touch and leave contact details? We should be relying on good old fashioned detective work.

"However, it's possible a third party - such as a relative of the abductor - could pretend to be a psychic as a way of passing on bits of information they have." Mr Williams-Thomas - who flew to Portugal soon after Madeleine disappeared - says he has also been inundated with emails about, or from, psychics regarding the case. But he questioned how their credentials could be verified and said officers would have to wade through information from hundreds of people with little hope of success. "They are not used very often in the UK. They're sometimes listened to but are not really a line of inquiry a senior officer would take," he said.

"I did a case where we did have involvement with a psychic. At first the information they have can seem incredible, it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. "But it's never led to finding someone - it didn't in this case, anyway."

Mr Williams-Thomas stressed that the search for Madeleine is still in the early days and there was still hope.
"They're still waiting for forensics and will be cross-referencing witness statements - through grounded policing there can be a positive result."
It's nice to see what an ex-detective has to say on the use of psychics. He's basically taking the same stance that we have.

One thing that does surprise me is that the police do little to discredit psychics or come out and categorically state that they do not use them. I would think that the fact that the police do not do this actually encourages psychics to contact them.

[Admin]

I didn't notice that part -- WTF? What happened to the idea of "reasonable suspicion" and getting a search warrant? Can any random charlatan just give your address to the police and suddenly your house is searched?

Well it seems that anyone can give the police a psychic tip off about you and they'll come and smash their way into your house.

Bearing in mind this is newspaper report and possibly sensationalised somewhat, it still leaves the police looking extremely foolish. I mean they took this action based on the information of a psychic!

See: IC Croydon article. (http://iccroydon.icnetwork.co.uk/advertiser/norwood/tm_headline=-i-blame-bitter-ex-neighbour-for-maddie-house-raid-shock-%26method=full%26objectid=19227193%26siteid=53340-name_page.html)

'I blame bitter ex-neighbour for Maddie house raid shock'

A HORRIFIED mum had her home raided by police looking for missing four-year-old Madeleine McCann.

Stunned Debbie Seepersad believes a bitter ex-neighbour may have maliciously claimed she had something to do with the youngster's disappearance.

Croydon Police broke down the front door of the mum-of one's home in Merton Road, South Norwood, turning it "upside down" during their search.

They were asked to break into the home by Leicestershire Police, which is leading the British side of the international search, after it received an anonymous tip-off.

Ms Seepersad, 43, was at work at Old Palace School, in Croydon, when the raid took place at 1.25pm last Wednesday (May 23).

She told the Advertiser she arrived home in a "blind panic" after a phone call from Croydon Police,at about 3pm.

They said they had searched her home looking for Madeleine.

Ms Seepersad said: "I was, and still am, in total shock. I arrived home with my 12-year-old daughter Maressa and friend Zebbie,shaking.

"There were police outside my house and they handed over a new set of keys because they had to change the locks after breaking my front door down.

"I finally got a phone call from a detective sergeant this week. He apologised for the distress caused and told me I was obviously not in the frame for the disappearance."

Ms Seepersad was told police had acted on an anonymous tip-off from a woman, and she thinks she knows who may be to behind it.

She said: "It got me thinking about a woman who used to live near me until six months ago. She used to throw things into my garden and she smashed in my car windscreen once.

"That's the only person I can think of who would have tried to frame me for something like this. I really don't have many enemies."

Four-year-old Madeleine was snatched from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, in Portugal, on May 3.

She was staying at the resort with mum Kate, dad Gerry and twin siblings Sean and Amelie. The hunt to find her has dominated the news over the last month.

Ms Seepersad says she has suffered mental torture in the week since the raid, with neighbours all gossiping about it. She said: "I am a mother at the end of the day, and to be framed for an abduction on this scale is just mortifying.

"People in the street have asked me if I had Madeleine stashed away in my attic and other residents thought my house was being raided for drugs.

"I can't understand why the police would act on such spurious information. It seems they got a bogus tip-off and acted on it without checking out the facts, as if desperate for a new lead in the investigation."

Leicestershire Police said it would be inappropriate to comment, but a police source revealed officers are going to any lengths to try to find Madeleine.

He said: "If we get any information that could help us locate Madeleine then we must act on it.

"Our number one priority is to find her."

Debbie is demanding a written apology from Leicestershire Police and is seeking legal advice.

She said: "I understand the police have to do their jobs, but I want the person who did this caught and prosecuted for providing false information.

"My daughter has been left very upset by this whole experience. Whoever is behind this has orchestrated a malicious campaign to frame me as a child abductor, which is just sick.

"I thought it was a windup at first. I still have to keep pinching myself and realise this raid on my home actually did happen."

A spokeswoman for Leicestershire Police said: "Since Madeleine went missing,we have worked with colleagues in police forces across the country. Since these inquiries form part of the Portuguese investigation, it would be inappropriate for us to comment further.

"Officers will, however, be speaking to Ms Seepersad with regard to the concerns she has expressed."

So this is the sort of thing that can happen when you take psychics seriously.

Ridiculous.

[Allo Allo]

Well it seems that anyone can give the police a psychic tip off about you and they'll come and smash their way into your house.

So this is the sort of thing that can happen when you take psychics seriously.

Ridiculous.

Well - yes - I believe this is exactly what could happen - only this woman seems to suspect her next door neighbour "tipping the police off" - but that is also unnerving don't you think? I thought police had to have warrants and reasonable "evidence"?

M

[Araneus]

It doesn't seem to specifically refer to a psychic tip-off, just an anonymous one. Still, I think it is appalling that police can conduct a search without any real evidence, it seems like a massive potential for abuse.

[Legaleagle]

The police would have to have had a warrant to search someone's house without their consent. The warrant can only be issued by a Magistrate or Judge who must be satisfied that it is reasonable to issue the warrant, so the merits of the "tip off" should have been looked at by the issuing Magistrate. I would hope there was more too it that one anonymous tip off otherwise I would be seriously worried about the judgement of the person who issued the warrant.

There are some circumstances in which they can enter premises without a warrant. If the Police reasonably judge that the delay in obtaining the warrant might have allowed time to remove the evidence, kidnapped girl or whatever, from the house, they can enter without a warrant. If they had the house under surveillance it seems unlikely this could reasonably apply.

[Admin]

The police would have to have had a warrant to search someone's house without their consent. The warrant can only be issued by a Magistrate or Judge who must be satisfied that it is reasonable to issue the warrant, so the merits of the "tip off" should have been looked at by the issuing Magistrate. I would hope there was more too it that one anonymous tip off otherwise I would be seriously worried about the judgement of the person who issued the warrant.

Yes indeed.

This story has been taken from the papers (and we know how reliable they are) so it's easy to end up with a conclusion that's more akin to Chinese Whispers than reality.

The article said:


The PJ is leading the investigation with the support of UK police forces. Last week they gave information to Leicestershire and Metropolitan police about an address in south London in connection with the case.

Ooerr - looks like I've been playing Chinese Whispers after all! :-[

No mention of the source being a psychic tip off - although the article is about the police using psychics. That's me exonerated then. :tongue: ;D

[Admin]

According to this article: Police's 2AM raid on a pensioner (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23399086-details/Maddy%20police%27s%202am%20raid%20on%20pensioner/article.do):


News of the searches came after Portugal's Policia Judiciaria said they were following leads from psychics and clairvoyants.

It is understood they are clutching to the hope that Madeleine's abductor might pose as someone with psychic powers so that he could free her, tell police of a vision identifying where she could be found - and avoid detection.
These raids have been instigated by tip-offs from psychics although they are originating from the Portuguese police.

It's obviously specific information so they're probably checking it out just in case it's someone with inside information posing as a psychic.

[Araneus]

I guess the police are stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. If they fail to follow up anonymous tips, they risk missing important evidence, but by launching raids based on these tips they make it trivally easy for anyone to harrass somebody they don't like by providing false information to the police.

[Zendal Darkman]

Each clairvoyant's claim was being taken seriously in case they were from the person or people who snatched Madeleine from her parent's holiday apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on May 3, Chief Inspector Sousa said.

"That is one of the reasons that we cannot discard anything," he said. "We must check them all in case it might be from the kidnapper.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2092504,00.html

[Mojo]

Well, I suppose the police know they're dishonest or deluded as soon as they claim to be psychics, so they have to check them out...

But that's a great quotation for future use whenever anyone brings up the police following up "information" given by a psychic as evidence that the police take psychic abilities seriously.

[odeed]

Hi, this is taken from the Daily Mirror forums http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=922 original post on Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:52 pm


Do hope this finds you well. I was wondering if anyone with psychic ability can verify if the info I am getting about Maddy makes any sense.

I am well know here in Ireland for my psychic work and you can verify my credentials on http://www.psychicsarah.com. I have a high rate of accuracy with what I do.

In the Sarah Payne case I informed the police that the search north of the border was futile and that Sarah would be found 10 or 11 miles from home within an day or two...she was. Also in the Soam case I said that Holly and Jessican would be found within a day or two and that Huntley was indeed the perteprator

In this case re Maddy; I am really not convince she is still alive. I have a feeling she is buried in rough wooded ground between 2 and 4 miles north east from where she was taken...I willl try to look on Google earth; but if anyone could email me a map of the area I would be most grateful

I am not convinced that Maddy was abucted for a paedophile reason...I have a feeling it was a sense of loss over a child ...Just as I am not convinced there was abuse in the Soam Case...I don't feel there has been with Maddy...people assume this too readily sometimes...these things are sometimes a hideous kind of accident which gets out of hand and I believe this is what happened re Maddy

My prediction on the Maddy case is that this will be solved in the next three or four weeks rather than dragging on forever...though I think that the search across Europe is pointless except to raise the profile over other missing kids perhaps. If that is some good which can come out of this fine... But I think the Mc Cann's will be rueing the day they left their kids to head to the Tapas bar for a long time to come...regretably...

Let me know if I can be of any help in this; I know there will be all sorts of psychic info coming out of the woodwork on this. But I am known for my accuracy and we DO need to find Maddy!


In this case re Maddy; I am really not convince she is still alive. I have a feeling she is buried in rough/dry/sandy sparsely wooded ground between 2 and 4 miles north/ north east from where she was taken...

I am not convinced that Maddy was abucted for a paedophile reason...I have a feeling it was a sense of loss over a child ... I have impressions of who did it and better not say. But the key to finding her is to dowse over a detailed map of the Algarve...

It is all much closer to home than peopel realise...it's someone local who would not stand out like a sore thumb and who was aware of the routines...she was carried away; not put directly into a car...and kept briefly in an underground basement or cellar...it wasn't madly planned or thought out...it was spontaneous and opportunistic becasue of emotional trauma within the person who abducted her


Police really SHOULD take notice and work with reputable psychics on such cases

I this case I DO hope I am wrong and that Maddy will be alive and released...but....it's not looking good.

Her parent's need an answer and we need to put our energy into this....concentrate on finding HER and then it will be more clear who did it and why...

The URL in the post leads to a parking domain, it has since been edited to http://www.sarahdelamerehurding.com/.

Despite her claiming that this is accurate to current investigation of the letter received by dutch newspaper Der Telegraaf she then says later in the thread

...snipped

Hopefully I was just picking up on the DUTCH connection (nothing more than that) and that she is still alive...but...

snipped...

[odeed]

Just to follow up to my above post re Psychic Sarah (Sarah Delamere Hurding), taken from the messages posted here http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/a/256534.htm


61. Psychic Sarah says:
June 13, 2007 at 9:31 am


I am really sorry to have left the alarming post…but the reality is this whole thing needs resolution for everyone concerned

The Dutch link there is well worth following through…it backs up what I picked up.

It is an ACCURATE lead…


65. psychic Sarah says:
June 14, 2007 at 6:49 am


Yes they WILL now find her…this is the correct lead and I just saw the area on sky news …it fits exactly with what I was seeing…

They need to search a 200 to 400 yard radius from where the Police cars are parked…

North is the hotest direction…and a hill of gradient 1 in 5…

The trees and greenery but also dry waste ground (dry and arid ground) are exactly what I saw…

I do wonder how much time and resources is spent by the police following up these so called leads provided by psychics and their fanatics.

[psychicsarah]

My psychic message has proved to be the ONLY accurate lead thus far and it was made BEFORE the dutch newspaper got their tip off...

I have also passed my thoughts to the media and the police...


Best wishes

psychic Sarah

O0

[Araneus]

My psychic message has proved to be the ONLY accurate lead thus far and it was made BEFORE the dutch newspaper got their tip off...

This would be the "accurate lead" which has revealed nothing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6755587.stm), and has been discarded by police as a line of inquiry?

Very impressive.

[vbloke]

My psychic message has proved to be the ONLY accurate lead thus far and it was made BEFORE the dutch newspaper got their tip off...

I have also passed my thoughts to the media and the police...


Best wishes

psychic Sarah

O0
I'd be a lot more confident in both your and other psychics predictions if they correlated at all, but the amount of sheer guff being put out there by self-proclaimed psychics spans half of Europe.

Why not PM or email someone here your EXACT predictions so that they can be independantly verified once the whole sorry case is finally over?

[Admin]

My psychic message has proved to be the ONLY accurate lead thus far and it was made BEFORE the dutch newspaper got their tip off...

It came to nothing though - looks like you're about as accurate as the rest them!

Before you amended your posting you wrote:


I have posted my thoughts to try to HELP find MADDY and for no other readon than to simply helpYou're the 'psychic' posting on the Daily Mirror forums as "bestie". ;)

How does providing links back to your own website HELP find Maddie?

I can't see how promoting yourself and your website does anything at all to help this case. Of course, should you be a publicity-seeking parasite, promoting yourself is just the sort of behaviour I'd expect to see.

[Matt]

My psychic message has proved to be the ONLY accurate lead thus far and it was made BEFORE the dutch newspaper got their tip off...

I have also passed my thoughts to the media and the police...


Best wishes

psychic Sarah

O0

If you really want to help, there are two possibilities.

You really are psychic: To ensure that the value of you prediction can be assessed, demonstrate your psychic ability in controlled circumstances. This has the added bonus of allowing your to donate the resulting $1m prize to portugese police.

You're not psychic: stop wasting police time.

Now I do understand that it's perfectly possible that you're not psychic but through the various effects such as confirmation bias etc fully detailed here, you believe that you are. If you really want to help Maddy it is essential that first you make an independant determination of your ability. You wouldn't want to inadvertantly be doing more harm than good would you?

[psychicsarah]

I am posting again as my post seems to have got deleted..

Yes I am genuinely trying to help find Maddy...no I do not feel the need to be tested ...this is about finding this poor girl...

I left info about by work to verify my credentials...and identify who I was...I do not need the publicity....I am simply trying to help

The police should not have abandoned that search

Page 7 on The mirror forum might interest you...my reply to an online skeptic there...on thread entitled 'psycic insights in hunt for Maddy'

Oh I am not wasting police time as I haven't contacted the portuguese police because it is pointless to do so...the Leicester Police however thanked me for the info....

[Admin]

no I do not feel the need to be tested ...this is about finding this poor girl...

How do you know that you're offering help rather than being a hindrance if you don't have your ability tested?

If your psychic ability is illusory then you're of no help to anyone; and no-one can take your claim to be psychic seriously just because you say you are (!)

You see, you may well be genuine in your intentions but mistaken in your ability.

The bottom line is: the police get bombarded with a load of contradictory information from deluded people who believe they have special powers and all it does is waste their time and, crucially, divert resources away from where they're most needed.

People like you may be well-intentioned (although I suspect many are are in it for self-serving reasons) but your attempts at help are actually counter-productive.

[odeed]

I rarely visit the Sky News message boards, but while trawling through the threads yesterday, I found this blatant attempt to cash in on the events around this case: link to thread (https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1247&Category=UK%20News)


Posted by Kazzy 15 June 07 18:26

For over 32 years I have worked as a very successful professional psychic and remote viewer, but with great frustrations, since each time something like a child going missing or a major events such as the World Trade Centre disaster, or the death of Princess Diana have occured, they have been true to my own personal premonitive visions, and since people like me are open to ridicule and dismissal by the authorities, we have to sit on our premonitions and watch the disasters happen, wishing our premonitive voices could be heard and acted upon.
What doesn't help of course, is when people manage to get their predictions heard and are proved to be wrong, and then the rest of us lose credibility.
Ever since Madeleine went missing I have had strong feelings about her location, had I been there in Portugal when Madeleine was abducted I have no doubt that I would have found her fast, still could but will anyone listen to the likes of me? Probably not now the latest prediction has been seen to come to no avail and no doubt to hails or "I told you not to bother with psychics" from the so called crime expert from the UK Williams Thomas, who despite hsi apparent expertise has not located her either!
The trail is going colder with the passage of time, I am haunted by the strong and sure feelings i have about the whereabouts of Madeleine and who is resonsible for this awful crime.
Meanwhile the Mc Cann's complain at the irresponsible journalism in broadcasting the letter from the Dutch Psychic, and whilst it must be hard and cruel for them to endure these agnosing hours whilst the police search that scrubland in thw wake of the Dutch Medium's letter, the fact remains that it has sparked off more media attention which they claim to want, - how paradoxical.
If only I could have my psychic voice heard, that's all I can say amidst my distain at the way this whole case has been handled though I have some suspicisions as to who is responsible and I fear that if my suspcions could become known the police in Portugal would not like what I have to say. But I feel that Madeleine would soon be found if my voice could be listened to. I don't get strong psychic and premonitive feelings like I have on this case, for nothing!
So many times I am right and uncannily accurate and so many times I have to bear the frustration of no means to voice my feelings which would solve cases like this so much faster and also prevent many world disasters.
I saw the World Trade Centre event days before it occurred, and the death of Princess Diana the very afternoon of the night it occured, you cannot imagine my frustration at not being able to make my voice heard and save the lived that were lost.
Perhaps one day someone will listen to us real and genuine psychics out here. Meanwhile its yet more frustration.
Will anyone out there listen just this once? .... I wish!
What out for a full page advertorial about me in "Chat Its fate" Magazine (UK) in July then ask yourself if you disbelieve then!
Kaz

I have bolded the parts that stood out for me. First part says "hey I might have been able to prevent these tragedies, but decided not to", the second is basically an advert for her services if you get the publication.

There were only two pages of responses when I read the thread yesterday, mainly asking what her predictions were in this case including one from psychic sarah, and to be fair one or two asking why she did not go to Portugal and solve the case.

This morning I went back to the thread, to find the number of pages had grown to nine and Kazzy/kaz had responded to the posts. To be honest I only skimmed through the replies, but from what I could tell her theory is nothing but a conspiracy involving the police and the Authorities, regurgitating TV, newspaper articles, and information from the web to back up her claim.

But in one or two posts kazzy invites people to take a look at her page http://www.what-lies-ahead.co.uk/kaz.html which is nothing more than a page advertising her services.

Do you have an opinion on this psychicsarah/bestie, you seem to believe her theory as you have posted it on the mirror forums despite it being blatent attempt to drum up business for herself?

[vbloke]

Yes I am genuinely trying to help find Maddy...no I do not feel the need to be tested ...this is about finding this poor girl...
If you are genuinely trying to help, how are you 100% sure that you truly are psychic and not simply imagining things and suffering from a form of confirmation bias?


I left info about by work to verify my credentials...and identify who I was...I do not need the publicity....I am simply trying to help
You and innumerable other self-proclaimed psychics have come forward with information, much of it contradictory. Considering that she can only be in one place, and either alive or dead, then surely there should be a consensus between you all.


The police should not have abandoned that search
Why not? If the search proved fruitless, then it is simply wasting resources that could be better used elsewhere. Just because you say so, does not make something true.


Page 7 on The mirror forum might interest you...my reply to an online skeptic there...on thread entitled 'psycic insights in hunt for Maddy'
It does not interest me one iota because you seem to persist in calling yourself psychic despite never having been subjectively tested to make sur you really are.


Oh I am not wasting police time as I haven't contacted the portuguese police because it is pointless to do so...the Leicester Police however thanked me for the info....
How would you feel if the police spend hundreds of man-hours and thousands of pounds on your say so and the search proved to be fruitless? Do you think the police would thank you then?
Read http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=police_and_psychics.php and see how, although individual police officers may consult with psychics, the official line of police forces nationwide is not to use psychics.

Finally, if you went to a doctor, who appeared to have no qualifications, no diplomas or certificates hung on their walls and said "I do not feel the need to prove my qualifications", would you feel confident in being treated by them? This is the same scenario as with you - you refuse to prove if you have the abilities you claim yet ask us to believe you.

I shall reiterate - send one of us either by email or PM here your exact predictions so that they can be compared with what actually transpires and we can at least begin to get somewhere in finding out if you are truly gifted or not.

[Allo Allo]

But in one or two posts kazzy invites people to take a look at her page http://www.what-lies-ahead.co.uk/kaz.html which is nothing more than a page advertising her services.
Nice bit of advertising here too! ;D


Do you have an opinion on this psychicsarah/bestie, you seem to believe her theory as you have posted it on the mirror forums despite it being blatent attempt to drum up business for herself?
He does? Do you mean that for people reading this thread John's opinion isn't CLEAR?! :-\

M

[odeed]

Nice bit of advertising here too! ;D

Just highlighting who this person is, or do you think there are skeptics here who would spend money on accelerated karmic time tripping, whatever that is.



He does? Do you mean that for people reading this thread John's opinion isn't CLEAR?! :-\

M

I was directing the comment at psychicsarah at post #54, should she read this thread again.

[Allo Allo]

Just highlighting who this person is, or do you think there are skeptics here who would spend money on accelerated karmic time tripping, whatever that is.



I was directing the comment at psychicsarah at post #54, should she read this thread again.
I see now! My apologise.....:-[

M

[psychicsarah]

HI There

I posted a few days back actually...and the moderator didn't deem it fit for consumption????

Anyway I put up Kaz on the Mirror forum to illustrate another psychics view point on this matter...even though I do not get quite the same messages as her on this matter...(I am trying to be open minded...all the time hoping I am wrong and that the little girl is still alive)


There is more than one body to be found though...the other girl Joanna who went missing in 2004 7 miles from where Maddy was abducted...has never been found...(the police beat a confession out of the mother for this crime and the guy that did it has just been reprimanded by the magistrates...guess what? He is in charge of the maddy investigation..interesting huh???


Unfortunately they won't find who did this ..but they will find MADDY

[Admin]

HI There

I posted a few days back actually...and the moderator didn't deem it fit for consumption????

No, you've posted 3 times and all your posts are on display.

Your post count is remaining at 1 though so I don't know what's causing that.



ETA: I think I've fixed it.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

My psychic message has proved to be the ONLY accurate lead thus far and it was made BEFORE the dutch newspaper got their tip off...

I have also passed my thoughts to the media and the police...


Best wishes

psychic Sarah

O0

This tactic of psychics quickly associating themselves with every potential lead becoming public knowledge through the media, is getting tedious fast. There is so much waffle now being written on forums that I predict it is 100% guaranteed that a good proportion of it will be considered to be a 'hit' once (or if) the facts in this case become public knowledge.

There aren't that many cases like this were the level of public knowledge and interest is so high - yet there is so little credible evidence or information. Luckily for us the self-proclaimed psychics are just really giving themselves some more rope with their guesses in their undue haste for recognition and the chance to appear on Richard and Judy. Unfortunately for the believers in the general public, nothing much will change. The incredulous media will continue to promote them whilst there are weekly women's magazines to sell.

So PsychicSarah and the rest, give us some credible precise information, or just shut up.

[Araneus]

The incredulous media will continue to promote them whilst there are weekly women's magazines to sell.

I presume you do in fact mean the credulous media here.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I presume you do in fact mean the credulous media here.

indeed, I often get those mixed up.

[Bat E Bird]

I've just had a quick trawl through the Daily Mirror and Sky forums.

It seems that "Bestie" is going to Portugal to see if she can "help" so I can't wait to see the outcome.

Kazzy's thrown a strop about people "abusing and slandering" her so she's now "going it alone" - how noble. Coincidentally, this was just after someone offered to pay for her to go to Portugal.

Looks like it's as good as solved now then.

[CalamityKate]

I think it is high time that PsychicSarah and all the deluded parasites like her kept their noses out of cases like Madeleine's.

Their ridiculous ramblings can only cause pain to the family (at best) and at worst, actually hinder the investigation as police are forced to act on what amounts to nothing more than a few dreams/visions prompted by nothing more than reading the papers.

A lot of the more "genuine" mediums/psychics (by genuine I mean that they genuinely believe they have a gift) are probably driven by the need to feel "special" - more highly evolved and open minded, more "spiritually aware" than the rest of us mere mortals. Fine. We all like to feel different. It's just that the rest of us try not to meddle in other people's misery in order to do it.

[Karlie67]

I rarely visit the Sky News message boards, but while trawling through the threads yesterday, I found this blatant attempt to cash in on the events around this case: link to thread (https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1247&Category=UK%20News)



I have bolded the parts that stood out for me. First part says "hey I might have been able to prevent these tragedies, but decided not to", the second is basically an advert for her services if you get the publication.

There were only two pages of responses when I read the thread yesterday, mainly asking what her predictions were in this case including one from psychic sarah, and to be fair one or two asking why she did not go to Portugal and solve the case.

This morning I went back to the thread, to find the number of pages had grown to nine and Kazzy/kaz had responded to the posts. To be honest I only skimmed through the replies, but from what I could tell her theory is nothing but a conspiracy involving the police and the Authorities, regurgitating TV, newspaper articles, and information from the web to back up her claim.

But in one or two posts kazzy invites people to take a look at her page http://www.what-lies-ahead.co.uk/kaz.html which is nothing more than a page advertising her services.

Do you have an opinion on this psychicsarah/bestie, you seem to believe her theory as you have posted it on the mirror forums despite it being blatent attempt to drum up business for herself?

Do you realise this is deformation of character you blab on here WITHOUT any PROOF but being a skeptic say it all...Kaz has clients who have remained so for many many years because she is so ACCURATE one of which is ME. Everything she has predicted so far is uncannily ACCURATE & has all come TRUE. You are defaming a HIGHLY RESPECTED psychich here. She was challenged to proove her intergrity on SKY NEWS & other forums and goaded into mentioning her website to proove her intergrity...in doing so she was then condemed for trying to cash in on the Maddie tragedy. Wonder if YOU where that person? GROW UP & GET REAL....or face LEGAL ACTION for DEFORMATION.

Karlie.

[vbloke]

Do you realise this is deformation of character you blab on here WITHOUT any PROOF but being a skeptic say it all...Kaz has clients who have remained so for many many years because she is so ACCURATE one of which is ME. Everything she has predicted so far is uncannily ACCURATE & has all come TRUE. You are defaming a HIGHLY RESPECTED psychich here. She was challenged to proove her intergrity on SKY NEWS & other forums and goaded into mentioning her website to proove her intergrity...in doing so she was then condemed for trying to cash in on the Maddie tragedy. Wonder if YOU where that person? GROW UP & GET REAL....or face LEGAL ACTION for DEFORMATION.

Karlie.
In order for any of this to be defamation, firstly it has to be proved that she really is psychic.

That is something we can test for very easily.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

How has she been deformed?

[Karlie67]

Wow, Can't even spell let alone DOUBT.

How about you all stop trying to dabble with things you don't even KNOW ABOUT. IDIOTS.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Wow, Can't even spell let alone DOUBT.

How about you all stop trying to dabble with things you don't even KNOW ABOUT. IDIOTS.

Hi kaz

[Karlie67]

Actually I'm not Kaz. I'm a client that has been to her and found out how accurate she is and how amazingly uncannily accurate she is for many many years so stop trying to assume stupid things in your TINY LITTLE BRAINS.

[vbloke]

Actually I'm not Kaz. I'm a client that has been to her and found out how accurate she is and how amazingly uncannily accurate she is for many many years so stop trying to assume stupid things in your TINY LITTLE BRAINS.
Personal attacks will win you few friends here.

Let Kaz come here, agree to be tested and then we'll talk.

[Araneus]

Wow, Can't even spell let alone DOUBT.

Actually you were the one who incorrectly spelt "defamation" as "deformation", as well as numerous other spelling mistakes.

How about you take your little 12-year-old threats back to MySpace? Nobody is in the least bit afraid of your "LEGAL ACTION FOR DEFORMATION" or any other inane garbage you might wish to post, however much BOLD TEXT you use.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I read that whole thread on the Sky forums for background. It is not hard to form an opinion of Kaz and her dubious company from that. There was also a poster in the thread who used insulting and threatening language, and littered their posts with capitalised words. I'm pretty sure Karlie is that poster.

[Karlie67]

It's actually NOT a Personal Attack. Learn that.

What scientific qualifications & experience do you have to test psychics? Kaz haz been tested by scientists since 1978 & PASSED ALL TESTS.

[Jocky]

Hello Karlie, and welcome to UKS


What scientific qualifications & experience do you have to test psychics?

There are people here with relevant credentials. Let's explore whether or not they are the 'right' ones.

Please enlighten us on which qualifications and experience you consider appropriate, and why.


Kaz haz been tested by scientists since 1978 & PASSED ALL TESTS.

Excellent. I am extremely keen to learn more about the protocols used in these tests and to examine the results (and I'm sure many others here would be, too). Please can you post a reference to where this information has been published?

If you wish to disclose information about these tests less publicly, feel free to PM me.

If you have evidence which stands up to independent scrutiny, it will be treated with all due respect. One properly conducted trial is worth a thousand posts.

[chillzero]

It actually is a personal attack to call people stupid, just because they disagree with you.

Perhaps you could give us links to information about the tests you say Kaz has passed? I am interested in this.

[Karlie67]

Her credentials on her website speak volumes.

Doesn't her years of experience speak it? She would not of been in the business for 32 years is she was crap. And on her website it does say what experience she has.

[Araneus]

Doesn't her years of experience speak it?

No, it is irrelevant.


She would not of been in the business for 32 years is she was crap.If by "crap" you mean "bad at attracting customers and convincing them she is psychic", then you are correct. However it has nothing to do with whether she is actually genuine or not.

What exactly do you hope to achieve with this kind of attitude? Not a single person has ever changed their opinion on a matter because somebody shouts at them YOU ARE WRONG YOU IDIOT. LEARN THAT. So why bother?

[Karlie67]

You are wrong you condem is because you don't understand that's where your at. You are also twisting my words I did NOT say that inadeqets always twist other's words.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Unfortunately, many of the people on this forum do understand.

We understand the commercial and psychological stuff which drives people like Kaz.

We understand why they make such claims.

We understand how they give the impression of being credible.

You won't find a group of people on the internet more open to knowledge and learning than on a skeptic's forum.

You won't change anyone's mind about Kas here unless you can provide meaningful independent scientific evidence to backup her claims. Sticking some images from paranormal websites on her web page doesn't really meet those criteria.

To be honest, we know from experience people like her are completely fraudulent. However, if you or she can prove otherwise, you will be welcome. If you continue with baseless claims and abuse, you'll just be ignored.

[Jocky]

Doesn't her years of experience speak it? She would not of been in the business for 32 years is she was crap.

Her success in business is completely irrelevant to whether or not she possesses any genuine 'psychic' ability.

Clarification: by 'Psychic', I mean the ability to percieve reality through means other than the known senses.

You claim she has been "tested by scientists" for such ability. Who? When? How?

[Karlie67]

You all need to get a life you will all soon be prooved wrong and what are you going to do then oh dear you will have egg on your face. Oh dear what a shame. I have better things to do that deal with small minded pillocks like you on a stupid forum that means nothing to anyone. No one likes you or your board is full of lies and crap. You all need to learn and stop being stupid pillocks a true psychic doesn't need to answer to anyone. Go away and go play on the motorway. Oh and don't forget make sure it's busy.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

:sad: Bye Kaz

[Admin]

You all need to get a life you will all soon be prooved wrong and what are you going to do then oh dear you will have egg on your face. Oh dear what a shame. I have better things to do that deal with small minded pillocks like you on a stupid forum that means nothing to anyone. No one likes you or your board is full of lies and crap. You all need to learn and stop being stupid pillocks a true psychic doesn't need to answer to anyone. Go away and go play on the motorway. Oh and don't forget make sure it's busy.

That sums up very well the mindset and level of understanding of a believer in psychics.

I don't think I need add anything as it speaks volumes in itself.

[Karlie67]

For The Last Time I'm Not Kaz.

[vbloke]

You all need to get a life you will all soon be prooved wrong and what are you going to do then oh dear you will have egg on your face. Oh dear what a shame. I have better things to do that deal with small minded pillocks like you on a stupid forum that means nothing to anyone. No one likes you or your board is full of lies and crap. You all need to learn and stop being stupid pillocks a true psychic doesn't need to answer to anyone. Go away and go play on the motorway. Oh and don't forget make sure it's busy.
I feel so ashamed now - I see the light! She must be genuine, having such a rabid fan as you.

Honestly, grow up.

[Matt]

Her credentials on her website speak volumes.

I thought I'd check into the credentials on her website. The very first thing I noticed is that she has a "PSI Q" rating from "Psychic Courses"

Now this "PSI Q" rating couldn't just be a marketing gimmick asking leading questions to convince gullible people that they have psychic powers that need training using Psychic Courses could it?

I thought I'd take the test, answer truthfully and see how my answers compared with Kaz's

Here's the answers I gave

1. Have you ever noticed unusual noises (creaks, bangs) in your presence?
Yes I live in an old house full of creaks as the house settles at night.

2. Before you go off to sleep, do you ever see images of rooms, landscapes or other scenes?
Yes, this is natural, it happens to everyone, not everyone remembers it.

3. Have you ever had the experience of hearing someone calling your name when no one else is around?
Yes, auditory hallucinations are not uncommon, the brains distorts natural sounds and is keen to hear your own name. I know of one incident when a person answered "yes?" not to his name being called but a fart.

4. Do you usually dream in black and white/monochrome?
No, Though I heard once that we all do but suspect that this is an urban legend. I am sure colours play a part in my dreams. The witch in my childhood recurring nightmare was green.

5. Are you a good mimic?
Yes, well at least I am compared to a poor mimic but not compared to my fiance who is an excellent mimic. However I like to think the best of myself.

6. Are you gregarious (do you enjoy the company of other people?)
Yes, I can be moody at times and gregarious at other times however I doubt there's many people who couldn't answer yes to this.

7. In your dreams are you aware of being in a 3 dimensional environment?
Yes, Well duh! My day to day experience is three dimensional so why should my dreams be otherwise. Third dimension is especially relevant when I'm flying ;-)

8. Do you usually find the weather is "against you" (rains when you want to go out, etc)?
No, not at all I don't anthropomorphise the weather. I'm usually the one saying, yes winter is over, it is spring time but you can't expect it not to rain in April.

9. Have you ever felt strongly compelled to 'pass on a message' about a future event to a friend or family member?
Yes, rather obviously when the message comes from another friend or family member and they know my propensity for poor organisation. However I can come up with a more hand wavy message like telling a friend they must loose weight for their health. I was drunk at a party and really laboured the point. This was years before he got diabetic. Then later ignoring the advice myself and getting it too.

10. Do you get on well with animals - do they respond well to you?
Yes, I do. I guess I'm just fluffy myself. Either that or I’m not afraid of them have been taught how to behave around them and don’t deliberately cause unnecessary suffering. I certainly not aware of using any psychic mojo.

11. When the phone rings, can you often predict who it is without looking at the caller ID?
Yes, we can all do this. There's only a limited number of people it could be and the different people tend to call at different times in different circumstances. Sunday 9pm the phone rings that'll be my Dad. Weekday evenings just as we're sitting down to dinner it's usually a one of my finance's friends. More often than not one in particular. A little later it'd be a more likely to be different one. Saturday morning if our lie in is interrupted by the phone it's her sister. I'm conscious of these rationales for knowing who's likely to be on the phone but the subconscious mind is equally good at making such predictions. Also I'm not swayed by confirmation bias and am aware that often I'm wrong.


12. Have you found yourself strongly attracted to the colours white, purple or pink?
Yes purple is one of my favourite colours. What of it? You calling me a goth?


13. Do you notice people being unusually clumsy in your company?
No, Some people are clumsy in my presence but I'm aware they're equally clumsy in other circumstances.

14. Have you ever experienced something happen in your life, good or otherwise, and you realised a higher purpose behind it.
Yes, but it wasn't a supernatural purpose it was office politics. Other times a higher purpose was served but by what I believe was coincidence rather then a higher consciousness. E.g. the circumstances of me being present to offer first aid at an accident. What a coincidence that I happen to be trained but wouldn't usually have been there? However it's the sort of coincidence that happens to everybody all the time. If you understand statistics you won't be so amazed.

15. Have you a poor sense of direction?
No I was always the navigator in Duke of Edinburgh expeditions when I was with the scouts.

16. Have you ever had a dream come true later on?
Yes, I'm 34 years old I've dreamed at least 30 thousand times in my life. I don't remember them all but one way to jog my memory is when events from the dream coincidentally unfold the next day. Once when at school I dreamed three nights in a row that I was dreaming. In each instance one and only one event from the dream within came true the next day. On the fourth night I also dreamt that I was dreaming and in that dream I got lucky with a certain young lady before the world ended. I never did mention to her that she should provide me favours to avoid the end of the world. Needless to say that the world didn't end either and the run of coincidence was broken.

17. Have you ever been surprised to discover you recognise the face of someone you have met for the first time?
Yes, I'm very bad with faces and often mistake people I've never met before with those who I have.

18. Have you ever experienced a premonition or dream of the future?
Yes, Isn't this the same as question 16?

19. Are you an pessimist - do you normally expect things to work out for the worst?
No, I've a quite cheerful disposition. I remember Mr Baxter from grange Hill saying that if you’re an optimist or a pessimist the outcome is always the same but the optimist has a better time of it. That's quite often good advice.

20. Have you noticed items like cutlery falling on the floor when you are around?
Yes, hasn't everybody. Cutlery floating in the air that'd be special. Or even if it fell to the floor when nobody was around to cause vibrations or otherwise perturb it from a precarious resting place.

21. Have you ever felt that you've had a problem sorted by receiving a "message" from an unknown source?
Yes, Flashes of inspiration are hardly psychic. Or even occasionally faxes phone calls or e-mails trying to sell products that it turns out are actually helpful. Given the amount I receive that are useless this is hardly a surprise. They get enough chances.


22. Do you get a sense of history when you hold old objects?
Yes and I get a sense of the future when I hold new shiny gadgets and a sense of other cultures when I hold objects which are obviously from those cultures. however there's nothing supernatural about such poetic musings.

23. Do you believe in "love at first sight"?
Yes, the existence of a neurological condition called love is beyond doubt and the triggers are diverse. First sight has been reported and I've no reason to doubt it.

24. Do you ever have a feeling that there is a presence or that someone or something behind the scene is helping you?
Yes I do, sometimes I'm been right but more often I'm either imagining it or completely wrong about the supernatural.


25. From a young age, you've been drawn to the unexplained and paranormal.
Yes, OK I admit it I was a bit of a Goth. Want to make something of it. I found the whole subject fascinating and still do. I'm sorely disappointed that there appears to be no solid evidence for any of it though.

26. Do bright lights bother you - car headlights, for example?
Yes, of course, is there anybody who isn't dazzled occasionally or who isn't bothered by it.

27. Do electrical gadgets turn on or televisions change channel spontaneously in your presence?
Yes the power circuit on our ancient TV doesn't always stay on standby. We have to turn it off at the button to make sure. It does it when I'm not present too.

28. Are you aware of being affected by the full moon?
Yes, I can see better.

29. You'll be thinking of someone and then run into them (or get a phone call from them) soon after.
Yes I usually think of people I'm expecting to meet or call. However even taking the question as it was presumably intended there's hardly anybody who hasn't experienced that coincidence.

30. Are you able to predict what people will say next?
Yes. My Dad was always irritated when I finished his sentences for him. The better you know someone the better you are at doing this.

31. Do you ever feel like you've been some place before, even though it's your first time visiting?
yes it's called Deja Vu.

32. Have you noticed watches behaving strangely when you wear them (breaking frequently, losing or gaining time?)
Yes, I buy cheap watches.

33. Are you a poor judge of character?
No, I'm an average judge of character.

34. Does your mood usually relate to what is going on around you?
Yes, I'm mean I'm not lost in a dreamworld. My mood relates to real events rather than strange ethereal whims.

35. Have you ever experienced deja vu, the feeling of "I have been here before"?
Yes, who hasn't ever experienced this? This is a repeat of Question 31

36. Do you usually take an instant like/dislike of people you meet for the first time?
Yes, usually like. I'm an affable sort of chap.

37. Have you ever seen balls of coloured light?
Yes, when pressing my eyeballs or looking at balls of coloured light. (usually called them bulbs)

38. Do you consider that you are a unlucky at games of chance?
No, I'm reasonably well versed in statistics and confirmation bias. I don't believe in luck in that sense.

39. Do things always go wrong for you?
No same as above.

40. Are you particularly good at finding things?
yes, I used to have good visual acuity and a knowledge of where things get placed and how they get moved.

41. Do coincidences feature largely in your life?
Yes, the feature heavily in everybody’s life. The fallacy of many believers is that they think coincidences are special when in fact they happen all the time.

42. Do ever feel like something bad is going to happen right before something bad *does* happen?
Yes, I can often tell exactly how and why they're going to happen too. Other times the process is subconscious.

43. When you're lost, you're good at finding where you're going with just using your intuition.
Yes, I can also find direction using logical means - the position of the sun, the direction of the sea breeze the direction of satellite dishes. Again sometimes those processes happen subconsciously. Also I once navigated round Eastbourne on the basis that it would be laid out exactly like Southend. It was.

44. Do you have a strong visual imagination?
Yes, I like to think so.

45. Do you accept the possibility that life exists elsewhere in the universe?
Yes, I'd be a fool to discount the possibility without any evidence to do so.

46. Would you describe yourself as reluctant to take risks?
Yes, I'm cautious in many circumstances but when stakes are manageable I little flutter isn't out tot the question.

47. Have you ever found objects in a different location to where you placed them?
Yes, I'm don’t who live alone. People move things.

48. Do people surprise you?
Yes, they shout Boo sometimes, other times they display talents and skills I didn't expect.

49. Have you ever ignored a sudden urge to go somewhere or do something, and regretted it?
Yes, I had an upset stomach and wanted to go to the toilet but didn't want to use the ones on the train. I thought I could last ‘til I got home. I really regretted that one.

50. Do you believe that consciousness is inseparable from the body?
No. I believe that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.


My results were

Telepathy/Empathy 08/10
Clairvoyance/Remote Viewing 10/10
Psychokinesis 10/10
Precognition 09/10
Channeling 09/10

for a total of 46/50

and Kaz's results

Telepathy/Empathy 09/10
Clairvoyance/Remote Viewing 10/10
Psychokinesis 09/10
Precognition 09/10
Channeling 08/10

Thats 45/50 one point less than me.

So I'm not psychic at all and Kaz by this slightly is less psychic than me.

Sorry I’m not impressed if this is supposed to be evidence that Kaz is genuine.

[Jocky]

I thought I'd check into the credentials on her website. The very first thing I noticed is that she has a "PSI Q" rating from "Psychic Courses"

Great minds think alike, Matt - I've just been there too. I'm dead jealous, 'cos you're more psychic than wot I am :'(

But then I did the test again giving the "correct" woo answers to all the questions, and got 10/10 for everything :cheesy:

Another interesting "credential" on her website is that she claims to hold a Ph.D from an undisclosed institution, which is apparently in "Science". Not any one bit of Science, it seems, so it must be in all of science ... :ponder:

I'd love to have seen her thesis. I could do with a laugh.

[Matt]

Aha here's the quote I think Karlie might have been referring too.



Her abilities were put to the test in controlled experiments at Liverpool University in 1978/9, conducted by Dr. Keith Hearne as part of his research into Lucid Dreams.
Kaz was able accurately to recall 10 digit numbers and even conversations in places remote from the laboratory in which her body was observed to be present throughout the tests.
Her contribution to research resulted in the award of a PhD in State Specific Science.


A search for Dr Keith Hearne turns up this http://www.european-college.co.uk/

and http://www.dreamthemes.force9.co.uk/Meet%20The%20Authors%20of%20The%20Dream%20Oracle.h tm seems to confirm this to be one and the same Keith Hearne.

If we really want to know what protocols were used in Kaz's tests I guess we can ask him.

I certianly can't find anything regaridng psychic testing or out of body experiences in Dr Hearne's Thesis http://www.european-college.co.uk/thesis.htm

[Matt]

Great minds think alike, Matt - I've just been there too. I'm dead jealous, 'cos you're more psychic than wot I am :'(

But then I did the test again giving the "correct" woo answers to all the questions, and got 10/10 for everything :cheesy:

Another interesting "credential" on her website is that she claims to hold a Ph.D from an undisclosed institution, which is apparently in "Science". Not any one bit of Science, it seems, so it must be in all of science ... :ponder:

I'd love to have seen her thesis. I could do with a laugh.

The implication is that her PhD is from Liverpool University although peculialry it seems to have been awarded on the basis of someone elses research and thesis. Her contribution was apparently as test subject in tests that are (at a first glance) not even mentioned in the thesis. On second thought perhaps it's more likely that her PhD is from an unaccredited institution and she proffered her involvement in this reseerch as the sort of limited justification these diploma factories ask for in lieu of an actual thesis.

Does anybody want to ask Liverpool University do we have Kaz's full name to do so?

[Jocky]

The implication is that her PhD is from Liverpool University ... perhaps it's more likely that her PhD is from an unaccredited institution

Indeed. If it exists at all.

Her website seems to imply that these experiments addressed Remote Viewing. Perhaps she can't distinguish between the internal significance she chooses to attach her dreams, and the actual purpose of the research in which she took part.

[Allo Allo]

You all need to get a life you will all soon be prooved wrong and what are you going to do then oh dear you will have egg on your face. Oh dear what a shame. I have better things to do that deal with small minded pillocks like you on a stupid forum that means nothing to anyone. No one likes you or your board is full of lies and crap. You all need to learn and stop being stupid pillocks a true psychic doesn't need to answer to anyone. Go away and go play on the motorway. Oh and don't forget make sure it's busy.

Dear Karlie

These are my ideas from a slightly different angle.

As I understand it everyone involved in this discussion with you would be REALLY INTERESTED if someone joined the discussion who said they were psychic and was willing to be tested according to an agreed test protocol which both sides would work out. I might speak out of turn, but I think that everyone in discussion would say that psychic abilities are POSSIBLE. There is quite a bit of evidence that, in fact, some people ARE psychic – but it is not scientific evidence. Science is simply a way of “testing” things very carefully so we can be sure of the facts.

This is my own personal opinion and I’m not speaking for anyone else, but I believe there ARE people who are psychic – but it is extremely rare – and (if there are indeed any) they are probably unable to control when it will “come upon” them. When it happens, it is absolutely accurate – and clear.

It is not the same as someone who does a cold reading, nor any of the psychics who have been trying to tell us where Maddy is. These sorts of psychics are just chucking as much “information” into the pot and making a stew, hoping that some of it might be a carrot!. Somehow “being psychic” makes them feel special, it can earn a person a lot of money, it can bring them publicity and (dubious) “fame”. I would label this as “commercial psychicism”. It is very dangerous in that it can injure people emotionally or produce a “self fulfilling prophecy” or ruin a life. Unfortunately commercial psychicism is very popular at the moment and quite a few of these "psychics" have found themselves in prison - so it is taken seriously.

For me, the fact that so MANY supposed psychics are trying to guess where Maddy is, and all of them are chucking so many different bits and pieces into the stew-pot hoping for a carrot, shows how foolish they are. I am ashamed to watch it! For me, no degree, or course, or doctorate will make you psychic, or “improve” your psychicism, No one need to do an “are you psychic” test because the real thing is not something you can learn – but you CAN learn how to be a commercial psychic, because it’s like a magician’s skill.

Don’t be angry with UK Skeptics forum just because they perceive that “commercial Psychicism” is “conning” people and is furthermore very dangerous, because, if you think carefully about it, they are right.

M
Ps - I have this quote (see below) at the bottom of my posts because I KNOW how angry and fearful one can get if one's ideas are challenged!

[Araneus]

As I understand it everyone involved in this discussion with you would be REALLY INTERESTED if someone joined the discussion who said they were psychic and was willing to be tested according to an agreed test protocol which both sides would work out.
Hell, I'll be glad if someone joined the discussion from the "believer" side who didn't behave like an illiterate five-year-old. I am very interested in having rational discussions with people who have different opinions, but thus far it seems like most defenders of woo are closely related to Beavis and/or Butthead.


I might speak out of turn, but I think that everyone in discussion would say that psychic abilities are POSSIBLE.
Most people here would say that psychic abilities could be possible insofar as they have not been definitively proven to be impossible; this is, however, subtly different from stating that they are possible which implies that there is some actual evidence for this.


There is quite a bit of evidence that, in fact, some people ARE psychic – but it is not scientific evidence.I don't imagine most skeptics would make a distinction between "evidence" and "scientific evidence"; I certainly don't. You might be able to argue that "evidence" could mean something else, but this would seem more like verbal gymnastics than useful discourse.

[Allo Allo]

Most people here would say that psychic abilities could be possible insofar as they have not been definitively proven to be impossible; this is, however, subtly different from stating that they are possible which implies that there is some actual evidence for this. Yes I agree I phrased that badly -:-[ -but there is some support for aspects of pre-knowing which are not scientifically proved.


I don't imagine most skeptics would make a distinction between "evidence" and "scientific evidence"; I certainly don't. You might be able to argue that "evidence" could mean something else, but this would seem more like verbal gymnastics than useful discourse. You are just playing with words!

M
:knitter:

[Allo Allo]

Just to make my position on Psychics, the Supernatural, the Paranormal etc VERY clear....

I believe - "There is no such thing as the paranormal and the supernatural; there is only the normal and the natural and mysteries we have yet to explain." (Michael Shermer)

M

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Just to make my position on Psychics, the Supernatural, the Paranormal etc VERY clear....

I believe - "There is no such thing as the paranormal and the supernatural; there is only the normal and the natural and mysteries we have yet to explain." (Michael Shermer)

M


I do agree with that statement, so much of what we already know will no doubt be fine tuned as we learn more about the fundamentals of the universe and new technologies are exploited (e.g. nanotechnology). Also, given the rate of advance in the last 100 years, there is so much still to discover in the next 1000.

However I wouldn't go so far as to include psychic/psi or similar experiences within that. Yes, there are areas of consiousness and the brain that we don't fully understand yet, but I am not aware of any real evidence (and I mean verified studies) which show that paranormal type experiences can't be explained away by human conditions such as intuition, co-incidence, subjective validation of results and plain common sense.

I think you do have a good point to make, but personally I would consider careful use of Occam's Razor - until there is genuinely something which can't be explained.

[CalamityKate]

It always amazes me how sceptics manage to (in the main) use correct punctuation, grammar and spelling while believers like Karlie seem to have the most tenuous grasp of even basic english.

I think someone somewhere should do tests on this phenomenon.

Karlie, you are doing neither yourself nor your heroine Kaz any favours by coming across as an ill-educated, illiterate, stroppy, "If you don't agree with me and admit I'm right I'm going to SHOUT and get all CROSS", petulant child.

Unless of course you are in fact extremely intelligent and for reasons known only to yourself, wish to disguise that fact. In which case, I have to say that telling people to "Go and play in the traffic" was inspired.

[Araneus]

It always amazes me how sceptics manage to (in the main) use correct punctuation, grammar and spelling while believers like Karlie seem to have the most tenuous grasp of even basic english. I think someone somewhere should do tests on this phenomenon.

The obvious answer is that skeptics tend to be scientifically-minded folks who have a generally higher intellect than believers, who are basically emotionalists without any particular capacity for intellectual discussion.

I don't like this answer, since it seems arrogant, but as yet I have not seen a better explanation for the observation that believers seem almost universally to tend towards verbose, scatterbrained or downright abusive tirades in defence of their position.

[Dr B]

My wife purchased a Tee-shirt for me with "I see stupid people" written on it.

I am dying to go to the spiritualist church wearing it ;D;D

[Jocky]

It always amazes me how sceptics manage to (in the main) use correct punctuation, grammar and spelling while believers like Karlie seem to have the most tenuous grasp of even basic english

Yes, I've often wondered at this, too.


The obvious answer is that skeptics tend to be scientifically-minded folks who have a generally higher intellect than believers, who are basically emotionalists without any particular capacity for intellectual discussion.

I don't like this answer, since it seems arrogant, but as yet I have not seen a better explanation for the observation that believers seem almost universally to tend towards verbose, scatterbrained or downright abusive tirades in defence of their position

I share your disquiet at that answer, Araneus. There is also some evidence against the hypothesis: there are some very well-educated and clever woos out there, Rupert Sheldrake and Peter Fisher for instance. However, the likes of them are perhaps not typical.

In a sense though, it doesn't matter. Critical thinking is not rocket science - there is no reason why people of average intelligence and with undistinguished educational attainment can't grasp the essential ideas and benefit from applying them in their lives.

It's all about finding the right way of putting it across - and part of that is avoiding anything which could be percieved as an ad hominem against individuals or woo-dom in general. We must try to rise above tirades like the rather tragic example above, and not be tempted to sink to the same level by implying that it's all down to the stupidity of the author (even when it is ;) )

[Allo Allo]

Carl Sagan quote:- “The chief difficulty I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them—the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe all these stupid doctrines are morons.”

M
:knitter:

[Dr B]

The polarisation issue (us vs them) is a pain - especically with the media wanting a good fight on TV.

However, sometimes people are morons....:cheesy: not the most elegant way to put it - but accurate, concise and relevant in some (but not all) circumstances.

[Dr B]

Someone once said, "a turd with whipped cream on it is still a turd"

;D;D

[Jocky]

sometimes people are morons....:cheesy: not the most elegant way to put it - but accurate, concise and relevant in some (but not all) circumstances

Indeed. However, in reality it is pretty tricky to point out to somebody that (a) they're a moron and (b) this is truly germane to the point at issue and therefore it is relevant and not an ad-hom. At least, it's tricky if you want to avoid being compared to Hitler in BOLD CAPS.

IMO, better just to pursue other lines of discussion. And given the quality of the argument, it shouldn't really be too tough to find some!

[CalamityKate]

That's a jolly good point and one I shall use in conversation as soon and as often as possible...

"You are a moron. I say this not as a personal insult, but as yet another illustration as to why your argument is flawed and wrong. No offence" ;D

[Mongrel]

That's a jolly good point and one I shall use in conversation as soon and as often as possible...

"You are a moron. I say this not as a personal insult, but as yet another illustration as to why your argument is flawed and wrong. No offence" ;D
You may want to practice ducking first though ;)

[fruitfly]

Hello, I'm new here. I've crossed swords with Kaz and Psychic Sarah in the past. Can anyone tell me anything about the Boundary Institute?

Sorry this post is so short but I have to go now. I've got an appointment with an iridologist!

[Mojo]

Indeed. However, in reality it is pretty tricky to point out to somebody that (a) they're a moron and (b) this is truly germane to the point at issue and therefore it is relevant and not an ad-hom. At least, it's tricky if you want to avoid being compared to Hitler in BOLD CAPS.
With some people, even the use of the word "germane" might be enough to provoke accusations of Godwinning the thread...

[Julia]

Yes, I've also noticed that many woo-woo believers tend to be illiterate, childish and FOND OF CAPITAL LETTERS. Karlie's grasp of the English language rivals that of Craig Shell, the fake medium and all-too-real conman recently exposed on Badpsychics...

[Admin]

"You are a moron. I say this not as a personal insult, but as yet another illustration as to why your argument is flawed and wrong. No offence" ;D

I saw a good quip that could serve as 'signature material' today.

"Hey mister, if my IQ were lower, I could really enjoy a conversation with you" - Muhammad Ali. ;D

[Admin]

Here's a theory - well a hypothesis anyway - OK I've just thought of it!! ;D

There does seem to be a correlation between the cognitively challenged (OK thick people) and belief in psychic abilities etc. compared to skeptics.

Although there does seem to be a continuum of IQ level related to belief in the paranormal from the densest to Ph.Ds (a few of whom have already been mentioned) - this does not seem generally true of skeptics.

I know that some really stupid and daft people label themselves as skeptics, but they tend to be dogmatic disbelievers on closer examination and they usually only have one area of disbelief - psychics or mediums, for example.

Now, I'm not trying to say that skeptics are self-selecting elitists (like Mensa ::)) but I do think that this situation comes about simply because skepticism takes a lot of conscious effort and a great deal of learning.

It's easy to believe without question but it's nowhere near as easy to say that you disbelieve and justify that belief.

In short: believing is easy; understanding takes effort.

That's why I think that intelligent people are drawn toward skepticism - they have a desire to understand issues and are prepared to make the effort to do so.

[odeed]

Actually I'm not Kaz. I'm a client that has been to her and found out how accurate she is and how amazingly uncannily accurate she is for many many years so stop trying to assume stupid things in your TINY LITTLE BRAINS.

That's not strictly true is it Karlie67 (aka Carly), or does kaz/kazy/kazzie/Dr Karen J Stevens/Rev Dr Karen Stevens charge her own daughter for her spells and tinctures.

I don't see how I defamed your mother in my post, and I have never posted on either the Skynews messageboards or the Mirror forums, if I do it will be using this username.

Maybe you could get your mother to post on this forum, and provide evidence for her psychic abilities. It should not be a daunting task for someone who has claimed to be a member of the Mensa elite. (I.Q: 180%)[sic] to debate skeptics.

May be she could also provide more information or evidence for the following:

more about her qualifications - S.D.A.D. R.N.A. R.G.N. Bsc. Msc. Ph.D. B.S.Y.A (Herb). B.S.Y.A (Irid). B.S.Y.A (Auric) B.S.Y.A (Reflex). M.A.S.C. M.N.M.S.
research she has published over the 32 years, especially her successful treatment of cancer patients with herbal medicine?
charitable trusts she has been part of?
businesses she has started or been employed by?
More about her Ph.D in Metaphysics?
using the title Dr to sell alternative medicine?
about her role in the clergy/church (she is a Reverend after all)?
her acting and script writing expierence?
her recent career in BDSM fetish website/movies?
her international "modelling" jobs?
that 600 year old crystal ball?


odeed.

[Julia]

BDSM? International "modelling"? Please, tell us more! :cheesy:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Check out these posts on the Sky News discussion forum from today by someone called karlie67:

https://messageboards.sky.com/ThreadView1.aspx?ThreadId=1730&Category=UK%20News



You're not going to be in OUR GANG OUR GANG OUR GANG!
Pillocks




Note:
We are leaving JUVENILE comment on here for the JUVENILES to play with & confining the more INTELLIGENT dicussions to our own INTELLIGENT forum thankfully minus JUVENILES like YOU I do believe that is all you are fit for

Have bad day suckers~




When you done sucking dummies and playing with rattles enjoy the notes


and last but not least:



Awwww you all love my lovely sense of humour and you have all stopped sucking dummies and playing with rattles OMG thats sooooo cute it's nearly beddy bye time for you cots at the ready!!! Ohhhh and don't for get little babies you have to wear a nappy in case you pee and sh!t your self again.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Having another look at the mad ramblings of Kaz, she is up to 26 pages of tripe on her website. It sounds like Gary Glitter might now be involved? (page 18 )




also said that I felt that an entertainer might be involved and the colour Gold was shown to me on Saturday, well all that glitters isn't
gold and Gold and Glitter begin with the letter G, and right from day one of this case the letters G, V & H have been laboured to me
by spirit as significant along with the word decking



And well, what do you know. She has started predicting terrorist attacks. How convenient, but I'm not sure what that has to do with Madeleine. (page 19)




Last night I saw that a building similar to this was bombed in Bagdad, so unless there is another like it then perhaps that was the one
I saw being hit? I could see considerable loss of life.
I do feel that Canary Wharf in London will be a target.




I don't think this woman is well. The full travesty can be read from here:

http://www.what-lies-ahead.co.uk/kaz.html

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

BDSM? International "modelling"? Please, tell us more! :cheesy:

Try Google search for Kazy3.

You'll find a number of links to alt.com (probably not a safe for work site)

Read any of the forum posts, perhaps even this one (again, definately NOT SAFE FOR WORK).

http://alt.com/intgroups/gi2106/qi62975/sh/acview_thread_message.html?highid=3776155_83940

If you want to find out who owns the What Lies Ahead site and where the registrant is based, then try this.

http://www.who.is/whois-uk/ip-address/what-lies-ahead.co.uk/

Note, I'm not passing judgement on anyone's lifestyle choices, however I wonder how many of her adoring fans (those that aren't in her family) are aware of her not-so-wholesome image.

[odeed]

Try Google search for Kazy3.

You'll find a number of links to alt.com (probably not a safe for work site)

Read any of the forum posts, perhaps even this one (again, definately NOT SAFE FOR WORK).

http://alt.com/intgroups/gi2106/qi62975/sh/acview_thread_message.html?highid=3776155_83940


I wonder how you found that? Actually I don't want to know.

I just went to http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.earthsense-international.org.uk/ and checked her old website. You can find out about her qualifications, history and the stuff she's into there.

The interesting stuff for you fetish fans happens in year 2005, there's also a link buried somewhere in there to her international modelling career. (probably NSFW)



If you want to find out who owns the What Lies Ahead site and where the registrant is based, then try this.

http://www.who.is/whois-uk/ip-address/what-lies-ahead.co.uk/

....

Checked that but it did not tell me what business she is trading under. However, I have just found on the terms page for what-lies-ahead website that she operates under the name K.R.Wade & Co Ltd. Which a quick google leads to this page (http://www.its-your-money.com/about%20us/who.htm) who resembles the man in this advert (http://www.what-lies-ahead.co.uk/media1.html).

From the things I have seen she does seem to do a lot of money making enterprises, some not even connected to the woo stuff.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I wonder how you found that? Actually I don't want to know.


I used Google ::)

Anything else, and my wife would kill me!

ETA : probably more accurate to say I had to use Google cache

[CalamityKate]

http://www.what-lies-ahead.co.uk/karlie.html


It's kind of a shame that Karlie didn't "Power Will" herself to attend school more often. She might have learned spelling and grammar and consequently, to express herself slightly more articulately.

[Araneus]

The photo totally matches her writing style though.

[Cuddles]

The obvious answer is that skeptics tend to be scientifically-minded folks who have a generally higher intellect than believers, who are basically emotionalists without any particular capacity for intellectual discussion.

I think a big problem is simply the material available to argue about. It doesn't matter how intelligent or educated you are, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of psychic powers. It is not that skeptics are generally intelligent or better educated, it is simply that we are the only ones with anything to argue about. It is pretty much impossible for believers to come up with a coherent argument because they have nothing to support it with.


That's why I think that intelligent people are drawn toward skepticism - they have a desire to understand issues and are prepared to make the effort to do so.

I think there's another effect at work here too. It is not necessarily that intelligent people are drawn to skepticism, although I suspect that may be the case as well, it is also that it is the intelligent skeptics that are more vocal, while in the believer camp it is the other way around.

Take quantum physics for example. An intelligent, educated skeptic who knows a bit about physics may be able to have a discussion about this, to a certain extent. A less educated skeptic will not be able to discuss quantum physics, but, being a skeptic, will realise that they don't know enough about it and will not try to discuss it. On the other hand, a well educated believer would know enough to realise that quantum physics does not actually support their beliefs and will avoid such discussions, while a less educated believer will spend hours ranting about quantum physics, apparently never realising that they are talking absolute nonsense.

I think it is important to realise that there is (probably) a big difference between the actual composition of the groups and the composition of those who make themselves heard. In this case, an educated believer in Kaz will realise that there is nothing to defend her with and will therefore not bother, while the less educated will shout rabidly about nothing. The educated skeptics will argue while those who know little about psychics will be happy to sit back and watch others find the evidence.

[Woodchopper]

I think it is important to realise that there is (probably) a big difference between the actual composition of the groups and the composition of those who make themselves heard.

To coin a phrase, then its much like a swimming pool. All the noise is at the shallow end.

I also don't believe that sceptics are necessarily more intelligent than others. Except that like Socrates, our wisdom comes from knowing how ignorant we are and the limits of our own perception. Therefore we don't believe anything without evidence and a reasoned explanation.

[CalamityKate]

The photo totally matches her writing style though.



Doesn't it, though? ;D

[Allo Allo]

It doesn't matter how intelligent or educated you are, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of psychic powers.

Quotes:-
Actually (http://skepdic.com/ganzfeld.html), what we know is that the jury is still out and it probably will never come in if the best that parapsychologists can come up with is a statistic in a meta-analysis that is unlikely due to chance. Even if we take the data at face value, we know that no matter how statistically significant the results are, the actual size of this psi effect is so small that we can’t detect it in a single person in any obvious way. We have to deduce it from guessing experiments. What hope do we have of isolating, harnessing, or expanding this power if a person who has it can’t even directly recognize its presence?

Another:- (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_n2_v60/ai_18960810)
As parapsychological testing procedures produce successful results, they attract increasingly sophisticated levels of criticism, including criticism of their security aspects. Safeguards against fraud or deviation from protocol are often challenged with regard to researchers as well as participants.
This is especially true for protocols that involve very few individuals already regarded as talented, such as special sender-receiver pairs, as well as protocols that focus on producing dramatic effects, such as macro-PK. Many parapsychologists deliberately choose to avoid gifted individuals, or special subjects, because they wish to escape the suggestions of fraud that would be likely to follow positive results.

summing it all up (http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_game/2006/09/trust_in_scienc.html)
read carefully!


M
:knitter:

[Araneus]

I'm not sure I understand the point of those quotes; sure, you can find very small statistical effects that are not entirely explained, but that is a far cry from "evidence for the existence of psychic powers" which, as Cuddles has correctly pointed out, does not currently exist in any scientifically valid form.


Many parapsychologists deliberately choose to avoid gifted individuals, or special subjects, because they wish to escape the suggestions of fraud that would be likely to follow positive results.

Again, I may be misunderstanding but you seem to be veering close to the "science refuses to properly investigate psychics" canard which is of course pure nonsense. There are plenty of opportunities for "gifted" or "special" subjects to participate in a scientific test of their ability, such as those challenges administered by JREF, or individuals on this forum. The main problem is that the supposed psychics do not want to be tested (because for all their self-delusion and bluster, deep down they know that their so-called abilities will never stand up to rigourous scrutiny), not that the scientists refuse to conduct the tests.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I can't remember who it is that made the point - and much better than I could possibly make it, but all these experiments have been done for many many years, and yet there isn't a single one which has had a conclusive result. They haven't found a single thing which could be classified as a breakthrough. The evidence brought forward points to tiny effects.

Any cases I have read in detail about, and I apologise because I haven't read your links in detail, do just illustrate mining of statistical discrepancies from the data and producing those as evidence. Its getting to the point, where as these experiments grow in complexity, you just won't get the 'serious' scientists lending their analysis, because it is just too time consuming, and they know there are better things for them to be spending their valuable time doing.

And I think that is why you get the whole psi thang being dismissed - people have got better things to do.

[Allo Allo]

In essence the statement “There is no evidence whatsoever” is not true. I think “it’s all absolutely bullshit” never impresses people and indicates a skeptical “belief system” rather than skepticism. There IS an amount of evidence that indicates people have a slight esp ability of some kind. The fact it happens with no known mechanism makes it awkward to explain and “scientifically” impossible. It’s more comfortable just to “bury” it.

But this is a skeptic’s forum that is supposedly about intelligent discussion even if the topic is uncomfortable. So, a better way to win friends and influence people is to point out that effects found scientifically (after Meta Analysis ^-^) were considered so slim as to not warrant further investigation at that time because in such slight proportions, it would not be useful. (Which I posted as my first “quote”) this attitude gives some dignity to the topic and (hopefully) encourages deeper thought about it.


I personally do not support commercial/pop psychics for the reasons I have given before, but psychic experiences DO happen. The fact that science can’t explain it is irrelevant. If you have a “belief system” that trashes everything that is not scientifically provable, then that is a “belief system” and not scepticism.


Science is a method not a “position” ...

M

:knitter:

[Araneus]

There IS an amount of evidence that indicates people have a slight esp ability of some kind.
Well if you count a very small statistical effect in an experiment which has not been reliably replicated and in some cases subject to procedural flaws as "evidence of ESP", then I suppose there is.


The fact it happens with no known mechanism makes it awkward to explain and “scientifically” impossible. It’s more comfortable just to “bury” it.That's just more "scientists are threatened by the TRUTH" paranoid nonsense. As has been pointed out many times now, there are plenty of scientists who ARE interested in examining these effects, as soon as a replicatable protocol that actually produces an effect can be found.


but psychic experiences DO happen.Well now you put it so persuasively, I'm convinced. ::)

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I don't have a skeptical belief system - unless you count a belief in critical thinking and worthwhile evidence as a belief system.

In the same way that I can't disprove there is a God (although I've formed an opinion there is a 99.999999% change he doesn't exist), it's the same with psi experiments. Where is the evidence that anything unexplained is not due to experimental error or statistical anomaly? At times you have to take a pragmatic view of these things. As soon as I see something that gives me reason to change my mind, I will not hesitate to do so.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

That's not strictly true is it Karlie67 (aka Carly), or does kaz/kazy/kazzie/Dr Karen J Stevens/Rev Dr Karen Stevens charge her own daughter for her spells and tinctures.

I don't see how I defamed your mother in my post, and I have never posted on either the Skynews messageboards or the Mirror forums, if I do it will be using this username.

Maybe you could get your mother to post on this forum, and provide evidence for her psychic abilities. It should not be a daunting task for someone who has claimed to be a member of the Mensa elite. (I.Q: 180%)[sic] to debate skeptics.

May be she could also provide more information or evidence for the following:

more about her qualifications - S.D.A.D. R.N.A. R.G.N. Bsc. Msc. Ph.D. B.S.Y.A (Herb). B.S.Y.A (Irid). B.S.Y.A (Auric) B.S.Y.A (Reflex). M.A.S.C. M.N.M.S.
research she has published over the 32 years, especially her successful treatment of cancer patients with herbal medicine?
charitable trusts she has been part of?
businesses she has started or been employed by?
More about her Ph.D in Metaphysics?
using the title Dr to sell alternative medicine?
about her role in the clergy/church (she is a Reverend after all)?
her acting and script writing expierence?
her recent career in BDSM fetish website/movies?
her international "modelling" jobs?
that 600 year old crystal ball?odeed.

oh my, there is so much out here on Karen J Stevens if you spend a little bit of time looking. I will need to do a write-up when I get time. It's a toss-up between her amazing cure-everything tinctures, or her used knickers for sale, or maybe even her dominatrix phone lines - as to what is the worst.

[Cuddles]

but psychic experiences DO happen.

And here is the important point. Psychic experiences happen. Actual psychic things don't. People experience things that seem psychic or paranormal for all kinds of different reasons ranging from simple coincidence and confirmation up to outright halucination and delusion. However, when these apparent experiences are actually studied scientifically they simply don't exist. It is not a case of scientists not wanting to believe, it is simply that under control for any mundane effects, the reported psychic effects just aren't there.

This is something that actually really bugs me when people assume that scientists don't want psychic powers to exist because it somehow conflicts with our beliefs. Just look at who reads (and writes) sci-fi and fantasy. For example, the biggest sci-fi authors ever would probably be Asimov and Clarke. Both scientists. Most scientists would love for there to be even more things that we don't understand to study. Aliens, psychic powers, ghosts, bigfoots, whatever, it would be fascinating. But they just aren't there. Beliefs aren't involved at any point. When anyone actually looks for these things using valid methods they just don't exist. It's not a lack of belief that is the problem, it is a lack of existence.

[Jocky]

This is something that actually really bugs me when people assume that scientists don't want psychic powers to exist because it somehow conflicts with our beliefs. ... Beliefs aren't involved at any point.

Yes, this bugs me too.

I always refuse to answer the question "Do you believe in ghosts?". It seems to me that merely by opening a conversation on this premise, you are implicitly that personal subjective belief has got something to do with whether or not ghosts exist. And it simply doesn't.

[OAP]

"I personally do not support commercial/pop psychics for the reasons I have given before, but psychic experiences DO happen. The fact that science can’t explain it is irrelevant. If you have a “belief system” that trashes everything that is not scientifically provable, then that is a “belief system” and not scepticism."

Exactly! And 'Socratian wisdom' would be the same wisdom that condemned to death anyone who dared to suggest that perhaps the earth wasn't flat or the centre of the universe. It is a belief system that denies progress because only phenomena that can be tested and explained by reference to existing knowledge can be worth studying. Oh and whilst we are about it, let's trash the messenger too!

I am as sceptical as anyone but acknowledge that an unexplained phenomenon (let's say psi related) might exist, whilst remaining to be convinced that it does.

[Araneus]

Here we go... *yawn*. Last person to use the phrase "closed minded" is a squashed tomato :tongue:

[Admin]

Quick point: let's not argue against a Strawman (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) here.

No skeptic advocates the dogmatic position that PSI abilities are impossible and therefore cannot exist (!)

All science/skepticism can say is that there's no robust evidence to support the claims that they do.

On a pragmatic level, however, it's perfectly sound reasoning to assume that PSI abilities do not exist until someone proves they do. Assuming they do because no-one's proved they don't is simply making the fallacy of Argument to Ignorance (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=argumentum_ad_ignorantiam.php).

From a philosophical point of view, we can never say something doesn't exist but from a pragmatic point of view I advocate the idea of setting a demarcation line. i.e. we need to acknowledge that if something has been tested many times over and never been proven then we should conclude, beyond reasonable doubt, that it doesn't exist - even if we can't say that with absolute certainty.

Philosophical Skepticism (we cannot know truth absolutely) is not the same as Rational Skepticism (where knowledge is (provisionally) true and justified). As rational skeptics, we should be prepared to set a demarcation level where our stance on an issue becomes justified (supported by evidence, for example).

Stating that 'PSI abilities do not exist' cannot be proven absolutely but it is a justified position to take on the issue as there's no robust evidence whatsoever to support the fact that they do exist. And there have been plenty of attempts to find such evidence.

[Matt]

Exactly! And 'Socratian wisdom' would be the same wisdom that condemned to death anyone who dared to suggest that perhaps the earth wasn't flat or the centre of the universe.

Ahem, Socrates born 470BC to a sea faring nation. They knew that the earth was curved as they used the changing horizon for navigation. However they weren't sure of the exact shape. He said that "If I am the wisest man, it is because I alone know that I know nothing" He was precededed by Pythagoras born in about 580 BC who had suggested the earth was a sphere. However it took until the third century BC for Eratosthenes to prove it and determine the size of the earth. Unfortunately Europe fel to the dark ages and belief in a flat earth returned based upon biblical writings.

It is to the superstitions of the Medeval Chruch that we have to turn to find people put to death for disputing the earth as the centre of the universe. The classic example being Giodano Bruno.

[OAP]

"No skeptic advocates the dogmatic position that PSI abilities are impossible and therefore cannot exist (!)"

I must have got the wrong impression! But let's put the philosophical argument aside and instead look at what research has been done and ask if it is indicative of something. Arguably, the work at Stanford Research Institute, funded by the US Government, was suitably rigorous. In my view the results suggest that a few subjects at least were able to 'view' remote places/events with sufficient detail and accuracy to confirm the existence of a PSI phenomenon, albeit too weak and imprecise to be of significant military value.

That is the essence of the problem. Let's assume that some psychics at least believe that what they are 'seeing' is in some way relevant to the target. Sceptics find their insights fragmented and imprecise, and conclude that they are worthless. All psychics are thereby branded as frauds and their insights automatically dismissed.

This will forever be a dialogue of the deaf unless the sceptic corner can accept that some psychics at least are sincere, and the psychic corner can accept that not all sceptics are out to rubbish them and their work.

I'm sure it is possible to devise tests that take account of the apparant limitations of PSI phenomena without compromising their integrity. Any thoughts?

[Araneus]

Arguably, the work at Stanford Research Institute, funded by the US Government, was suitably rigorous. In my view the results suggest that a few subjects at least were able to 'view' remote places/events with sufficient detail and accuracy to confirm the existence of a PSI phenomenon, albeit too weak and imprecise to be of significant military value.

This was confirmed scientifically? Is there some published evidence that we can refer to?

EDIT: Interesting and readable article here: http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html


This will forever be a dialogue of the deaf unless the sceptic corner can accept that some psychics at least are sincere, and the psychic corner can accept that not all sceptics are out to rubbish them and their work.There are plenty of psychics who are "sincere", in that they believe in what they do and are not just out to defraud customers and make money. However, to say that someone is sincere is not to say that they possess a genuine ability.


I'm sure it is possible to devise tests that take account of the apparant limitations of PSI phenomena without compromising their integrity. Any thoughts?Sure, if the test subject believes that their ability has certain limitations then tests can be devised to take account of those limitations, in order to test what the psychic is actually claiming to be able to do.

What tends to happen in reality, is that the "limitations" imposed by the psychic render the entire experiment completely unscientific, and serve more to give them plenty of "wiggle room" if the test result is not conclusive. You can read some of the dialogues between the JREF and various applicants for the Million Dollar Challenge for some shining examples of psychics trying to twist and turn to avoid an actual scientific test of their abilities.

[CalamityKate]

When I am drunk, I "sincerely" believe that I can sing.

However sincerely I believe it, I still sound like a cat being ironed.

[OAP]

"Is there some published evidence that we can refer to?"

There are too many books and journal papers to list here, before I go for a drink and sing-song, but this paper might be a useful starting point.

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/jse_papers/IU.pdf

By the way, I don't have a problem with Socrates: he puts things rather more elegantly than I do. e.g. 'Wisdom begins in wonder'.

Does anyone wonder enough about PSI to want to test it for themselves? I've seen enough to be intrigued but not convinced.

[Allo Allo]

Thanks Araneus that's a very interesting article – only disappointment is that it was 1995! I have found in my researches that experiments and papers on all sorts of “currently non accepted scientifically” topics from prayer, to homeopathy, to placebo, esp/psi – whatever, had upbeat conclusions in general before 2000. After that, it seemed to go all downhill. I think it is possible that more rigid testing procedures that are now in place, blow stuff out of the water. So if it doesn’t date from after 2000 I don’t consider it. (that’s only MY little quirk). The proteus phenomenon raises issues on whether scientific information is always trustworthy anyway!

If I find a result from a meta analysis that is looking at stuff from way back in time, I should assume the “results” to be questionable (again that’s only MY little quirk).My suspicions arose when I was arguing with John in my first incarnation on UK Skeptics and I noticed all the “positive” results for prayer were pre-2000 and the “negative” ones post 2000 (in general terms). I don’t think attitudes changed – I think testing changed.

The fact that people have (rare) psychic experiences isn’t really debatable – and I agree the answer might come from neuroscience/ neuropsychology whatever.

I remember Tony Blair giving us his jubilant millennium message “We have cracked ALL our genetic coding!” and thinking “It’s got to be more complex…We humans are so terribly arrogant." Recently my eye caught this (below). Mmmm maybe I’M psychic!::)


Quote:- Last month, a consortium of scientists published findings that challenge the traditional view of how genes function. The exhaustive four-year effort was organized by the United States National Human Genome Research Institute and carried out by 35 groups from 80 organizations around the world. To their surprise, researchers found that the human genome might not be a “tidy collection of independent genes” after all, with each sequence of DNA linked to a single function, such as a predisposition to diabetes or heart disease.


Instead, genes appear to operate in a complex network, and interact and overlap with one another and with other components in ways not yet fully understood. According to the institute, these findings will challenge scientists “to rethink some long-held views about what genes are and what they do.”

I rather agree with farsideofthemoon when he said “And I think that is why you get the whole psi thing being dismissed - people have got better things to do.”

M

:knitter:

[Araneus]

Thanks Araneus that's a very interesting article – only disappointment is that it was 1995! I have found in my researches that experiments and papers on all sorts of “currently non accepted scientifically” topics from prayer, to homeopathy, to placebo, esp/psi – whatever, had upbeat conclusions in general before 2000. After that, it seemed to go all downhill. I think it is possible that more rigid testing procedures that are now in place, blow stuff out of the water. So if it doesn’t date from after 2000 I don’t consider it. (that’s only MY little quirk). The proteus phenomenon raises issues on whether scientific information is always trustworthy anyway!

Yes, I don't think much of the conclusions reached by that article to be honest, although I find it interesting that she points out that the "observed in the field" effects are much greater than those that can be produced in the laboratory, and of the laboratory tests the forced-choice (more rigourous) tests produce a much smaller effect than the free-choice (more room for maneuver).

The very fact the increased rigour seems to result in decreased effect should allow us to draw a meta-conclusion of our own.


If I find a result from a meta analysis that is looking at stuff from way back in time, I should assume the “results” to be questionable (again that’s only MY little quirk).My suspicions arose when I was arguing with John in my first incarnation on UK Skeptics and I noticed all the “positive” results for prayer were pre-2000 and the “negative” ones post 2000 (in general terms). I don’t think attitudes changed – I think testing changed.

Precisely.

One of the major problems with meta-analysis, which is made very obvious in the article, is that it begins from a position of assuming that the experiment was infallible. This is where I think the author goes wrong in concluding that there is overwhelming evidence for psi -- she assumes that the experiments were perfect, and from the subsequent statistical analysis concludes that psi must be true.

Her section on "prima facie" evidence is downright ridiculous as well; this is nothing more than the Appeal to Ignorance with a bit of scientific jargon thrown in. The conclusion that "if it can't be easily explained, it must be remote viewing" is even more absurd when remote viewing is defined as "gaining information by an unexplained means". Well, duh!

[Matt]

I noticed all the “positive” results for prayer were pre-2000 and the “negative” ones post 2000 (in general terms).

Myabe God died? ;-)

[Matt]

Surely meta analysis of Physchic Phenomena is instriniscly subject to confirmation bais in that seemingly positive results are eminiantly more publishable. If twenty people do experiments you'd expect one to acheive a statistically significant result at the 5% level. They will attempt to publish thier paper, the other 19 would not.

[OAP]

"Surely meta analysis of Physchic Phenomena is instriniscly subject to confirmation bais in that seemingly positive results are eminiantly more publishable. If twenty people do experiments you'd expect one to acheive a statistically significant result at the 5% level. They will attempt to publish thier paper, the other 19 would not."

Yes, it's the 'file-drawer' effect. The duff results get filed, the positives get published. It doesn't mean that the positives don't exist, but their statistical significance might be overstated. It still leaves us with ephemeral spooky experiences that can't be explained by coincidence or natural phenomena. These are the black swans that reject the null hypothesis: just one is enough.

Personally I find meta analysis and the attempts to explain the 'science' behind remote viewing to be less than gripping (the books join the ranks of the great unread), and can understand the temptation to dismiss it all as rubbish and get on with something more interesting! Pity about that black swan though...

[Cuddles]

Quote:- Last month, a consortium of scientists published findings that challenge the traditional view of how genes function. The exhaustive four-year effort was organized by the United States National Human Genome Research Institute and carried out by 35 groups from 80 organizations around the world. To their surprise, researchers found that the human genome might not be a “tidy collection of independent genes” after all, with each sequence of DNA linked to a single function, such as a predisposition to diabetes or heart disease.

Instead, genes appear to operate in a complex network, and interact and overlap with one another and with other components in ways not yet fully understood. According to the institute, these findings will challenge scientists “to rethink some long-held views about what genes are and what they do.”

I have to ask where this quote comes from. The only people who should be surprised by this are those who did not take GCSE biology. We know genes are not one-to-one functions and we know that many different genes all interact to cause different traits. We have known that since before we even knew what genes were made of. This quote can only be a media report written by someone with no clue what the research actually meant.

[Matt]

Yes, it's the 'file-drawer' effect. The duff results get filed, the positives get published. It doesn't mean that the positives don't exist, but their statistical significance might be overstated. It still leaves us with ephemeral spooky experiences that can't be explained by coincidence or natural phenomena. These are the black swans that reject the null hypothesis: just one is enough.

Actually I'm saying that they can all be explained by coincidence.

Coincidence is ubiquitous.

What we do know is that those who don't recognise how frequently coincidnces should be expected to occur infer greater significance to coincidence than is due and that this flaw corelates with belief in the supernatural. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/89011450/ABSTRACT

[OAP]

Matt, at the risk of sounding pedantic, I think the paper you cited argues rather more complex judgemental errors on the part of believers than that they simply underestimate coincidence. (This topic is dealt with pretty comprehensively in Kahneman, Slovic and Tversky: Judgement under uncertainty: hueristics and biases. Biases are as ubiquitous as coincidences and affect us all, not merely believers).

The problem, I suggest, with PSI phenomena is that they are not consistently replicable and are therefore not robust to quantitative evaluation. That doesn't mean that you can write them all off as coincidence or wishful thinking. Like I said, I remain to be convinced but I don't think it will be easy to find a sufficiently rigorous methodology that is sensitive to the limitations of the phenomena.

[Allo Allo]

I have to ask where this quote comes from. This quote can only be a media report written by someone with no clue what the research actually meant.

New York Times Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/business/yourmoney/01frame.html?_r=1&ref=yourmoney&oref=slogin)

I didn't take GCSE biology - I thought the article interesting - patented genes a problem for the future? If everyone knows what you know - why patent a gene in the first place? :-\

I found this (http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2007/07/is-darwin-due-for-upgrade.html) interesting too - you might just have to put up with me.

M

:knitter:

[Admin]

The problem, I suggest, with PSI phenomena is that they are not consistently replicable and are therefore not robust to quantitative evaluation. That doesn't mean that you can write them all off as coincidence or wishful thinking. Like I said, I remain to be convinced but I don't think it will be easy to find a sufficiently rigorous methodology that is sensitive to the limitations of the phenomena.

Then I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the claims made here: http://www.what-lies-ahead.co.uk/media1.html

SCIENTIFIC TESTS

Her abilities were put to the test in controlled experiments at Liverpool University in 1978/9, conducted by Dr. Keith Hearne as part of his research into Lucid Dreams.

Kaz was able accurately to recall 10 digit numbers and even conversations in places remote from the laboratory in which her body was observed to be present throughout the tests.

Her contribution to research resulted in the award of a PhD in State Specific Science.

If PSI are "not consistently replicable and are therefore not robust to quantitative evaluation," what do you make of the claims made on this web page?

As you're clearly a 'fence-sitter' waiting to be convinced due to lack of robust supporting evidence, do you agree with me that the claims made on this page are extremely unlikely to be true, and therefore this is a case of false advertising and these people are operating fraudulently?

Perhaps 'What Lies Ahead' is a more apt domain name than whoever thought of it intended. ;)

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Never mind operating fraudulently, they shouldn't be allowed to advertise with those faces.

[Julia]

Sorry, but I just read the reference to Kaz selling her used knickers and I simply can't get the image out of my mind. Pass the brain bleach...
:spank:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

These aren't just any used panties, these are sexy Kazy used Panties....

http://web.archive.org/web/20060206213640/http://www.kazy.co.uk/catalog/conditions.php?osCsid=4f712b61ed788ec3f4baa0657a43 3a9e

[Mojo]

It is to the superstitions of the Medeval Chruch that we have to turn to find people put to death for disputing the earth as the centre of the universe. The classic example being Giordano Bruno.

Maybe not. It seems that Bruno was probably burned for his religious beliefs rather than his scientific opinions: he was a follower of a cult called Hermetism, and was condemned for the heresy known as Arianism, the belief that Christ was not God incarnate. The fact that he was also a supporter of the Copernican model probably prejudiced the Church against the heliocentric model and had a certain chilling effect on other contemporary Italian astronomers. See John Gribbin*, Science: a History pp. 17-19.

*At least I can spell his name, unlike certain people (http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/4/1/7).

[Cuddles]

New York Times Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/business/yourmoney/01frame.html?_r=1&ref=yourmoney&oref=slogin)

I didn't take GCSE biology - I thought the article interesting - patented genes a problem for the future? If everyone knows what you know - why patent a gene in the first place? :-\

I can't read the article so I can't comment on patents, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the quote I was commenting on. I can say with absolute confidence that no-one at the United States National Human Genome Research Institute was in any way surprised by the fact that genes are not all seperate entities with only one function. I can say that because it has been well known for at least 150 years. As I said, media report by some journalist with either no idea what they are talking about or simply trying to make some exciting news out of something not new.


I found this (http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2007/07/is-darwin-due-for-upgrade.html) interesting too - you might just have to put up with me.

M

:knitter:

For some reason people always seem to enjoy talking about "paradigm shifts" without ever paying attention to what they are actually saying. Sorry, but there's nothing new in that article either. Genes mutate and natrual selection acts on them, that's all there is to it and no-one, except a few nutty creationists, argue with that. Finding out more about exactly how things work is not challenging Darwin and is not any kind of paradigm shift.

[Allo Allo]

I can't read the article so I can't comment on patents, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the quote I was commenting on. I can say with absolute confidence that no-one at the United States National Human Genome Research Institute was in any way surprised by the fact that genes are not all seperate entities with only one function. I can say that because it has been well known for at least 150 years. As I said, media report by some journalist with either no idea what they are talking about or simply trying to make some exciting news out of something not new.



For some reason people always seem to enjoy talking about "paradigm shifts" without ever paying attention to what they are actually saying. Sorry, but there's nothing new in that article either. Genes mutate and natrual selection acts on them, that's all there is to it and no-one, except a few nutty creationists, argue with that. Finding out more about exactly how things work is not challenging Darwin and is not any kind of paradigm shift.

I don't know why the New York Times link is suddenly for members only - it wasn't when I read the article! Sorry.

As for all your other comments - OK, I believe you. Sorry I posted.

[Matt]

Maybe not. It seems that Bruno was probably burned for his religious beliefs rather than his scientific opinions: he was a follower of a cult called Hermetism, and was condemned for the heresy known as Arianism, the belief that Christ was not God incarnate. The fact that he was also a supporter of the Copernican model probably prejudiced the Church against the heliocentric model and had a certain chilling effect on other contemporary Italian astronomers. See John Gribbin*, Science: a History pp. 17-19.

*At least I can spell his name, unlike certain people (http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/4/1/7).

Your are of course correct, Bruno was accused of multiple crimes including "claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds." It was my understanding that this was the belief that he refused to recant offering only aprtail recantation of his rejection of the church's dogmatic beliefs in the virginity of Mary and Chirst's divinity and in dealing with occultists.

[Bat E Bird]

Does anyone know anything about the Revs on this forum?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/249341/thread/1183353426/last-1183410261/Where+is+Madeline-+++++++++THREAD++05

I think the postings are getting a bit scary and likely to upset some people so I wondered if you'd heard about him/her/they before?

Thanks in advance.

[Dr B]

I am about to do the laundry so place your orders quickly if you want anything 'used' ;D;D

Nothing exciting I am afraid.....unless cotton is your thing :cheesy::cheesy:

[lisamichelle]

Hi there

Firstly I guess I'm not a total sceptic, as I do believe sometimes people 'know' things, why or how who knows and what label you place on that seems to depend on where you are in society. I do think what some call 'psychic' abilities are no great gift, more a natural ability we all have to some degree or another, and what the sceptics on here want to 'test' would not in most cases yield detailed enough information to be classified as supernatural.

I don't claim to be psychic at all but sometimes get very brief information, usually when I am not trying to. Certainly not enough to find Madeleine, and I would never be certain enough to contact anyone no matter what I picked up.

When the two little Soham girls disappeared I was quite into amateur reading tarot cards. I was into tarot at the time more as a hobby than as something serious or vocational. I was playing with my cards when I heard they'd disappeared on the news, so did a tarot reading pretty much as soon as it was public knowledge that they'd vanished, and before I'd seen or heard of Huntley. I wasnt sure about any real abilities so I wrote down my results, seeing as I'd thought for some time my readings were showing stuff which I only understood after the event (hence weren't helpful lol!).

I wrote in my journal regarding the girls that the cards showed 'a young man, prob. under 30 and with dark hair, seems nice on the surface but has a very cruel and vindictive streak, very controlling and manipulative, either his girlfriend was involved or he viewed the girls as his girlfriend. Someone was red haired or reddish-blonde (which I'd wrongly attributed as just being one of the girls, obvious with hindsight it identified Maxine). I also wrote that there was a connection to an older man (remember his Dad's house was also searched later). None of those things would be enough to point exclusively to Huntley, or where the girls were eventually found, I certainly hadnt picked up that the girls were dead, nonetheless I think I'd written down enough to give an outline of the person who it turned out to be. If I'd identified him as a caretaker or involved with a school, maybe it would be specific enough to be worthy of further examination, however Im sure this information was more than co-incidental.

The whole thing freaked me out a little, and I ddnt read the cards for some time after that. Now I read them occasionally, sometimes they are accurate, sometimes I am way off the mark and Im happy to admit that! However, if Ive lost something in the house, I can generally find it by dowsing with a pendulum in under 2 minutes provided it is still in the house - VERY useful when Ive lost my keys!!!!!

However, what I think is more remarkable than any tarot reading or supposedly 'psychic' insight is that lots of people who would never say they were psychic have said to me 'Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr - I knew they'd done it when I saw them on TV, knew it straight away'. My other half, who thinks psychic stuff is all nonsense and a waste of time, announced it as soon as he saw the guy and long before he was a suspect. I think a copper would call it a hunch, or a feeling, whereas a psychic would call it supernatural or spiritual.

We all have 'hunches' and 'feelings' when our energies interact, maybe it is through something spiritual or maybe it is an inbuilt reaction to clues the body gives about truth and lies, either way it happens daily across all walks of life. I dont know how you could test or explain that, but it will be the police officer who acts on these 'hunches' and investigates further because for some reason something doesnt feel right that eventually uncovers the evidence he needs to support his suspicions. That is what I see as genuine 'psychic' power in action and far more effective than the £1.50 an hour lines, while there are some genuine people on there many of them are feeding their own egos, and I should know, Ive rung enough of them over the years!

I think its great that so many people who believe they have ability are willing to genuinely help Madeleine, if I thought for one second I had an ability to find her or specific enough information to render it worthy of investigating I'd get in touch, however the problem is that there are so many 'psychics' and so few police officers, I think every wasted effort by them in chasing dreams and psychic's ego trips is detrimental to their true investigation and I wouldnt want to add to that. I don't think thats so much due to some of the psychics being charlatans, or chasing money, more that they think they have higher abilities than they have in reality.

Perhaps a better way for these people to help would be for someone to set up a website where psychics could contribute information about missing children (lets not forget Maddie is sadly far from being an isolated case), with only information which seems to be corroborated and shared being passed to police for investigation, with someone respected keeping an overall eye on what is coming in, rather than every cranky lead needing to be chased 'just in case', wasting police time and detracting from their main aim, to find the children. There should be NO REWARD for contributors and the posts should not be made public, reducing the risk of fraudsters making contributions.

I am told that in the US sometimes psychics are able to solve cases which have been cold for years, if there is a mere POSSIBILITY any information can help, when cases are cold, its always worth a look, whether its psychics, hunches, or dowsers, if it helps and isnt harmful Im all for it. Sadly, though, I think that psychic info. or hunches are only one possible source of information which isnt always sufficiently detailed or accurate on its own merits, yet sadly some people are only too eager to place more emphasis on that than on the solid, back breaking basics of a traditional police search.

Lisa

[Araneus]

I wrote in my journal regarding the girls that the cards showed 'a young man, prob. under 30 and with dark hair, seems nice on the surface but has a very cruel and vindictive streak, very controlling and manipulative, either his girlfriend was involved or he viewed the girls as his girlfriend. Someone was red haired or reddish-blonde (which I'd wrongly attributed as just being one of the girls, obvious with hindsight it identified Maxine). I also wrote that there was a connection to an older man (remember his Dad's house was also searched later). None of those things would be enough to point exclusively to Huntley, or where the girls were eventually found, I certainly hadnt picked up that the girls were dead, nonetheless I think I'd written down enough to give an outline of the person who it turned out to be.

Except that all of those descriptive items are either obvious (most child abductors are men, they must necessarily have a cruel and vindictive streak, and obviously the concept of "girlfriend" is going to relate to the abduction of two young girls), or you are retrospectively creating links which do not really exist (his Dad's house was searched, so what? There was no evidence that his Dad was actually involved AFAIK).

You might have chosen to interpret it as psychic information at the time, but really it is just a mixture of sensible guesses and posthumous reinterpretation.


If I'd identified him as a caretaker or involved with a school, maybe it would be specific enough to be worthy of further examination, however Im sure this information was more than co-incidental.Exactly -- if you had provided this information. This kind of specificity is exactly what psychics do NOT provide, and if they do it is most often wrong.


Now I read them occasionally, sometimes they are accurate, sometimes I am way off the mark and Im happy to admit that!Indeed. If you guess often enough, occasionally you will be right.


However, if Ive lost something in the house, I can generally find it by dowsing with a pendulum in under 2 minutes provided it is still in the house - VERY useful when Ive lost my keys!!!!!But there are probably only a few places you will have left your keys, and it doesn't take that long to search even without dowsing. If you could locate your keys after they were buried in an unknown location in a large field just by dowsing, that would be impressive.


We all have 'hunches' and 'feelings' when our energies interact, maybe it is through something spiritual or maybe it is an inbuilt reaction to clues the body gives about truth and lies, either way it happens daily across all walks of life. I dont know how you could test or explain that, but it will be the police officer who acts on these 'hunches' and investigates further because for some reason something doesnt feel right that eventually uncovers the evidence he needs to support his suspicions.Yes, hunches do certainly exist and in many cases they can be helpful, but they are certainly not paranormal (and incidentally have nothing to do with "energy" -- this is a common superstitious misuse of a scientific term which has no relevance to its actual meaning). Hunches are essentially the brain's subconscious analysis of a large number of small clues, in a person's behaviour for example, which are propagated to the conscious mind as a vague feeling or instinctive reaction.

It is also worth pointing out that a great many hunches are wrong. An experienced police officer may be able to tell that something "doesn't feel right" about a suspect's story, but laymen trying to ascertain guilt from TV pictures are likely to have far less success.

[CalamityKate]

"Someone was red haired or reddish-blonde (which I'd wrongly attributed as just being one of the girls, obvious with hindsight it identified Maxine)."


It isn't obvious that it identified Maxine at all.
All it means is that coincidentally, you "saw" someone with reddish hair, and Maxine loosely fitted that description (very loosely in fact - I would have said her hair was brown).
It's called "retrofitting".
HTH.

[CalamityKate]

I had a premonition today, as it happens.

We were driving behind a pickup truck which had some planks tied to it.

I suddenly had the thought that they would fly off and hit our windscreen. I began worrying (as mothers do) about what would happen if I was injured, possibly unconscious and unable to pick my boys up from school.

Lo and behold, a second after that thought, one of the planks DID fly off and we had to swerve quite violently to avoid it - the person who was driving almost lost control of the car.

Of course, a "woo" would by now be setting themselves up as a fortune teller.... however, I realise that when I think about it, EVERY time I have ever been behind a similarly stacked vehicle, I have worried briefly about what would happen if some of its cargo fell off in front of me.

[lisamichelle]

But there are probably only a few places you will have left your keys, and it doesn't take that long to search even without dowsing. If you could locate your keys after they were buried in an unknown location in a large field just by dowsing, that would be impressive.

That point would be valid if I had placed my keys in their normal places, once after a 3 hour search (being so disorganised I couldnt find my pendulum either!!!), I happened upon my pendulum which led me to the kitchen cupboards immediately - trust me, I'd never have stuck my keys in with the tins of baked beans! I laughed and somewhat sarcastically opened the cupboard to find them sat there in the middle of the tins out of sight, my other half had hidden them for a joke,he'd never done that before, trust me that would be one place I would NEVER have looked but for the pendulum! There are people who are sceptics and then there are those who are just plain negative...... I don't put down your comments and am willing to listen to your opinions, kindly show some smidgeon of respect and be a little less patronising towards me.

[vbloke]

That point would be valid if I had placed my keys in their normal places, once after a 3 hour search (being so disorganised I couldnt find my pendulum either!!!), I happened upon my pendulum which led me to the kitchen cupboards immediately - trust me, I'd never have stuck my keys in with the tins of baked beans! I laughed and somewhat sarcastically opened the cupboard to find them sat there in the middle of the tins out of sight, my other half had hidden them for a joke,he'd never done that before, trust me that would be one place I would NEVER have looked but for the pendulum! There are people who are sceptics and then there are those who are just plain negative...... I don't put down your comments and am willing to listen to your opinions, kindly show some smidgeon of respect and be a little less patronising towards me.
Simple answer - is the pendulum thing something you can easily replicate?

If so, we can arrange to test it objectively so you can be sure that you really can do it, or are fooling yourself that you can (I mean no disrespect by that last statement, only that, by setting up an objective test, can you be sure if you really can divine things via a pendulum).

[Araneus]

I don't put down your comments and am willing to listen to your opinions, kindly show some smidgeon of respect and be a little less patronising towards me.

I apologise for not considering the possibility that your keys had been deliberately hidden by your husband amongst some baked bean tins. I knew there was something obvious that I was missing. ::)

Still, a single (or even several) anecdotal example like this does not prove dowsing is real. As vbloke points out, this would need to be tested objectively and repeatably in order to draw such a conclusion.

[Cuddles]

That point would be valid if I had placed my keys in their normal places, once after a 3 hour search (being so disorganised I couldnt find my pendulum either!!!), I happened upon my pendulum which led me to the kitchen cupboards immediately - trust me, I'd never have stuck my keys in with the tins of baked beans! I laughed and somewhat sarcastically opened the cupboard to find them sat there in the middle of the tins out of sight, my other half had hidden them for a joke,he'd never done that before, trust me that would be one place I would NEVER have looked but for the pendulum! There are people who are sceptics and then there are those who are just plain negative...... I don't put down your comments and am willing to listen to your opinions, kindly show some smidgeon of respect and be a little less patronising towards me.

So you didn't find them after two minutes of dowsing, you found them after a three hour search. As others have said, dowsing is incredibly easy to test. If you are interested in a proper objective test I'm sure something can be arranged. However, dowsing is one of the most tested paranormal claims and so far not a single person has been able to demonstrate anything more than chance.

[Admin]

Now I'm not claiming to be psychic but reading between the lines I think that the Portuguese police are making noises that indicate that they're ready to wind this enquiry down.

I strongly suspect that we'll get a "missing presumed dead" outcome as no new evidence is coming to light.

[tolman]

I strongly suspect that we'll get a "missing presumed dead" outcome as no new evidence is coming to light.

Which would presumably mean all the psychics would claim they would have been successful if only they'd been listened to.
And those who repeatedly and inaccurately predicted the imminent solution of the case would quietly forget their failed time predictions and go away convinced they were right, and maybe even that they 'helped'.

[Ardbeg]

Which would presumably mean all the psychics would claim they would have been successful if only they'd been listened to.
And those who repeatedly and inaccurately predicted the imminent solution of the case would quietly forget their failed time predictions and go away convinced they were right, and maybe even that they 'helped'.

Execpt the ones who said that she will be found 'soon'?

[Admin]

Sarah,

Please keep your points to one relevant thread. O0

John

[brettdbass]

Now I'm not claiming to be psychic but reading between the lines I think that the Portuguese police are making noises that indicate that they're ready to wind this enquiry down.

I strongly suspect that we'll get a "missing presumed dead" outcome as no new evidence is coming to light.
It's very hard to say what's happening. The (IMO) bizarre rules regarding release of information relating to the enquiry, coupled with the sometimes subtle, sometimes strong hints and the sometimes completely wide-of-the-mark misinformation, gossip, rumours and leaks all goes to make it pretty much impossible to see what's really going on.

I wonder, if they wind the search down but leave the case open does that mean that the information they've got so far remains completely unavailable? That would certainly cover their rears if the invetigation has been completely bungled.

Hmm, I appear to be somewhat more cynical than skeptical right now... ho hum.

[Admin]

Hi Brett, and welcome. O0

You're right. Nothing at all can be said about the case in any way as the police in Portugal seem to be admitting now that they are no further forward than on day 1.

I'm just getting the impression now (psychic? :cheesy:) that by stating that they think Madeleine is dead that it's the beginning of the wind down to the enquiry and the beginning of getting the parents to accept the situation.

I wanted to post this before the 'psychics' started claiming this as, it seems to me, the next logical move.

Of course, being a non-psychic, I won't mind if I'm wrong.

[tolman]

Execpt the ones who said that she will be found 'soon'?

Oh, I'm sure they'd count their latest predictions of 'soon' as hits.
They might even count them as 'helping', though I'm not sure how time predictions are ever supposed to help even coming from someone who was always right about them.

Imagine you're a lead investigator.
Someone you honestly believe has an uncanny knack of being right says"'The case will be solved soon!".
What actual help is that, apart from maybe helping you sleep easier, or scaring a credulous perp' into confession or some other giveaway move?
Do you work even harder, just as much, or less?
Do you take the rest of the week off, secure in the knowledge it'll all be over soon?

[brettdbass]

Hi Brett, and welcome. O0

You're right. Nothing at all can be said about the case in any way as the police in Portugal seem to be admitting now that they are no further forward than on day 1.

I'm just getting the impression now (psychic? :cheesy:) that by stating that they think Madeleine is dead that it's the beginning of the wind down to the enquiry and the beginning of getting the parents to accept the situation.

I wanted to post this before the 'psychics' started claiming this as, it seems to me, the next logical move.

Of course, being a non-psychic, I won't mind if I'm wrong.Hello! :smiley:

But... what if you're right? I mean, wow. Would you still not believe?

You must be another one of those pesky hard-nosed skeptics who refuses to accept even their own anecdotal evidence or ocassional brushes with coincidence? Sheesh... next you'll be telling me there's no bigfoot.

[tolman]

Hello! :smiley:

But... what if you're right? I mean, wow. Would you still not believe?

You must be another one of those pesky hard-nosed skeptics who refuses to accept even their own anecdotal evidence or ocassional brushes with coincidence? Sheesh... next you'll be telling me there's no bigfoot.

Note John's cunning use of "beginning of the wind-down", allowing him to claim success if the case is ever shelved, by deciding that in retrospect, now was when the wind-down really started.

I'm sure you'd never get a real psychic using that kind of flexible language.
That's how you can tell John isn't really psychic.

[psychicsarah]

we're going to make sure the site found is properly searched

[tolman]

That's the site you found 5 weeks ago?

[psychicsarah]

yes that is right Tolmon...I can not help it that the police have not yet searched it

Though they did retrieve a child s top from the site and took it as evidence...of what I don't quite know....

One of these girls has been moved to the sea and one of these girls is near this site...

I am equally concerned for both Joanna (who met a grisly end) and Maddy

[Admin]

In other words Sarah, if anything you have said about Madeleine turns out to be wrong you can just say that it was relevant for Joanna and the psychic energies you picked up weren't clear. ;)

It neatly ensures that anything you've said can't be proved wrong.

This technique is known as building a: multiple get-out clause (!)

NOTE: any statement that cannot be tested (falsified or proved wrong) is devoid of meaning.

It's a trick also used by pseudoscience (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=pseudoscience.php).

Your trick has been spotted, ;) but I'm sure you'll continue with it anyway.

[tolman]

yes that is right Tolmon...I can not help it that the police have not yet searched it

Though they did retrieve a child s top from the site and took it as evidence...of what I don't quite know....
I thought it was the UK searcher who found a child's top?
What you wrote seems to imply the police took it from the site.
Did your searcher find it, but leave it where they found it, and get the police to pick it up?

[cbrown1980]

I believe psychics are real. Though my definition of a psychic is someone who picks up on body language and circumstances surrounding the subject. This I believe is intuition/instinct/gut feeling, the sixth sense.
When I look at the Mccanns, all I can see is guilt. I see 2 scenarios. It must be one of these! My gut feeling tells me that they may have a big secret. They may have accidently killed madeleine and gerry has been the one to suggest they remain quiet and know nothing. She is going along with it and feels very guilty. Which would be why she doesnt seem to cry much. It kinda appears that they are putting faces on as they seem to have reacted very differently to this than other cases we have seen.
It could also be that she looks so guilty because she is guilty of leaving her children alone will she went off and enjoyed herself. This is the price she is paying for one night. Then I would say that she was the one that insisted they leave the kids and that gerry is quite angry with her.
Either way Mrs Mccann believes it his her fault one way or another.

P.S These people that say they see this and that in dreams and all that rubbish. I believe are suffering some sort of psychological disorder that makes them really believe in themselves. I dream ive won the lottery and another dream of my boyf having an affair. Neither of these are true. If they did come true, i would put that to coincidence. I agree, they come out with so much vague information that they can be molded around anything. And so will fit into evry scenario.

Aw yeah, i had a dream about madeleine too. Probably due to the amount of publicity this has recieved, it was constantly in your face and on your mind. I dont have them now, because the media covergae has died down abit.

[Allo Allo]

Found this by accident (http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/234-Psychics-search-for-Madeleine-McCann.html)....

[fruitfly]

Found this by accident (http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/234-Psychics-search-for-Madeleine-McCann.html)....

The vultures have landed!

Article referred to in Allo Allo's link: http://www.paranormalreview.com/News/tabid/59/newsid368/104/Psychics-in-hunt-for-Madeleine/default.aspx .

Police spokesman Olegario Sousa said each clairvoyant claim was being taken seriously. Whatever the police may think privately about the value of paranormal assistance, the reality is that the kidnapper or kidnappers – for whatever reason – may also decide to give clues about her whereabouts under the guise of a psychic communication.

[Araneus]

It could also be that she looks so guilty because she is guilty of leaving her children alone will she went off and enjoyed herself. This is the price she is paying for one night. Then I would say that she was the one that insisted they leave the kids and that gerry is quite angry with her.
Either way Mrs Mccann believes it his her fault one way or another.

It doesn't take a psychic to guess that if Madeleine really was abducted while the parents were out, they would be feeling pretty guilty about it and blaming themselves. The other hypothesis is just one you've invented in response to the recent news that Mrs McCann is being considered a suspect, and has nothing to do with intuition whatsoever.

If it does turn out that the parents are guilty, then I will just laugh at all of those hyperemotional idiots and amateur psychics who have relentlessly jumped on a hysterical "hope and pray" bandwagon which turned out to be an elaborate hoax.

[Admin]

I wonder what the Pope will be thinking if the parents are guilty! ???

[HeyJupiter]

Then I would say that she was the one that insisted they leave the kids and that gerry is quite angry with her.

This wasn't the impression that I had from a few of their news channel interviews... From watching their body language and the way she phrased things, I got the distinct impression that it had been the other way around. Although, obviously we can only speculate, as we weren't there :-\

[Araneus]

I wonder what the Pope will be thinking if the parents are guilty! ???

Somehow, 'Doh!' doesn't quite cover it.

[chillzero]

I wonder what the Pope will be thinking if the parents are guilty! ???

Actually, I saw this clip on the news for the first time today, since it is all being rehashed yet again... and her body language as the pope took her hand was incredibly interesting.

She seemed.... relieved, somehow. Like how I guess you would look if you were in any way culpable and believed the man in front of you had a hotline to a God you believe in, but he had just accepted you.

but then, yes, I do have an active imagnation.

[Araneus]

Although I obviously claim no psychic powers, I tend to agree with the sentiment that their behaviour has been a little odd. They have spent an inordinate amount of time and energy making noise and fuss, seeking publicity and undertaking utterly pointless (but all-expenses paid) trips around the world to "look for" Madeleine, but don't actually seem to be all that upset. I would expect anybody whose child was kidnapped to be totally floored by it, with very little energy left for media whoring and meetings with the Pope.

They have annoyed the hell out of me from the beginning with what seems like over-acting and attention-seeking, and although it is far too early to jump to conclusions, the merest suggestion that there might have been deception involved is extremely interesting.

[fruitfly]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but can anyone tell me why there is an attachment to this thread with pictures of sailors and military policemen? See main psychic thread index.

[vbloke]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but can anyone tell me why there is an attachment to this thread with pictures of sailors and military policemen? See main psychic thread index.If you go to page 1 of this thread, it opens with a message about Stuart Higman posting on the GMTV forums - then on page 2, a poster called atheistgirl posted those photos of someone named Stuart Higman who was in the military.

[fruitfly]

If you go to page 1 of this thread, it opens with a message about Stuart Higman posting on the GMTV forums - then on page 2, a poster called atheistgirl posted those photos of someone named Stuart Higman who was in the military.

Ah, I missed that. I really must pay more attention.

Thanks for that, it has been bugging me!

[cbrown1980]

[quote=Araneus;16694]The other hypothesis is just one you've invented in response to the recent news that Mrs McCann is being considered a suspect, and has nothing to do with intuition whatsoever.

Well your wrong there. I wrote that before i found out she was a suspect. I never said it was intuition, thats just one of the many hypotheses i have. And i never claimed to be psychic either:cheesy:

[Elin]

Brian Ladd is going to Portugal and solve this case... At least he is sure that he is right and i find that honest - hes fall will be big to all his readers if proven wrong.

Regards.

[tolman]

Brian Ladd is going to Portugal and solve this case... At least he is sure that he is right and i find that honest - hes fall will be big to all his readers if proven wrong.
That'll be the Brian Ladd who cheats with lottery predictions?
How do you know he's really going?

[Elin]

Hello Tolman, I read that on his website. He is going, and dont care if he gets arrested when knocking on ppls door in his search:cheesy:

I just hope he doesnt come up with flue or something...^-^

[cbrown1980]

Hey nobodys mentioned a hire car in their psychic babble. And why aren't the portugese police questioning everyone who hired the car before the mccanns. Yeah big coincidence but not an impossibility that whoever took the wee girl had hired that same car. If the DNA came from her belongings, it should still be on it. And how, in the name of the wee man, could they possibly put her in the boot without someone seeing them??? Well i dont believe they could with the amount of publicity they have had.

Someone mentioned the portugese police looking for closure,well thats what its beginning to look like now, if they don't check out the other avenues. Looks very like their trying to nail the mccanns whichever way they can just to save themselves being embarressed.
And no i cant spell

[tolman]

Hello Tolman, I read that on his website. He is going, and dont care if he gets arrested when knocking on ppls door in his search
Hey, what a coincidence - I don't care if he gets arrested either.

[Bat E Bird]

I've just stumbled across this whilst surfing.

I started off looking for info about Allison Dubois because I've been watching Medium and didn't realise it was supposed to be based on a true story. That's ruined it for me.:sad: I thought it was good old honest fiction until I spotted her name at the end of the credits.

I then came across somene called Robert Lindblad; he's supposed to be able to find all missing children. Why the hell are there so many missing children if he's so good?::) I found info on him on the Randi website.

Now I've just spotted a woman called Isabel Avila and can't find much about her in English. Apparently she's Chilean and found lots of dead soldiers at one time. This is the first time I've heard of her being involved - just look at the photo in the link below. Have any of you heard of her before?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071002/ap_on_re_eu/portugal_missing_girl

How many more are going over there? If they're so brilliant Madeleine should have been found ages ago.

I'm getting pretty sick of them crawling out of the woodwork to get their names in the papers >:-)

Someone on a forum suggested they hold a psychic convention in PDL. It seems they're all either there or going there anyway.

[open mind]

This is the point that most people seem to ignore. The police don't look at messages from psychics because they think they are psychic, they look at them because they think one of them might be suspect. I really can't understand why people think psychics sending crap to the police shows how psychic they are when if any of them actually knew anything it would effectively incriminate them.

you've it the nail on the head so to speak

[Elin]

I've just stumbled across this whilst
surfing.

I started off looking for info about Allison Dubois because I've been watching Medium and didn't realise it was supposed to be based on a true story. That's ruined it for me.:sad: I thought it was good old honest fiction until I spotted her name at the end of the credits.

I then came across somene called Robert Lindblad; he's supposed to be able to find all missing children. Why the hell are there so many missing children if he's so good?::) I found info on him on the Randi website.

Now I've just spotted a woman called Isabel Avila and can't find much about her in English. Apparently she's Chilean and found lots of dead soldiers at one time. This is the first time I've heard of her being involved - just look at the photo in the link below. Have any of you heard of her before?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071002/ap_on_re_eu/portugal_missing_girl

How many more are going over there? If they're so brilliant Madeleine should have been found ages ago.

I'm getting pretty sick of them crawling out of the woodwork to get their names in the papers >:-)

Someone on a forum suggested they hold a psychic convention in PDL. It seems they're all either there or going there anyway.

I loved the show Medium. I truly believed that Alison had really solved all (or some) of those cases :-[ That there were some people with powers like that amongst us - then i went on the internet searching , there must be something that verifys this, but no, all i have ever found so far are professional lying predators or simple minded people ruled by their imagination, not one case solved by psychics confirmed by any police force! For me that says alot.

[Admin]

Trolling/hijacking posts moved: http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1496

[Bat E Bird]

I loved the show Medium. I truly believed that Alison had really solved all (or some) of those cases :-[ That there were some people with powers like that amongst us - then i went on the internet searching , there must be something that verifys this, but no, all i have ever found so far are professional lying predators or simple minded people ruled by their imagination, not one case solved by psychics confirmed by any police force! For me that says alot.

Hi Elin :smiley:

That's what happened to me when I found this forum.

Before, I quite happily believed that there were psychics who helped the police and found people for them.

Then I started to follow the search for Madeleine and, somehow, stumbled upon the involvement and opinions of some psychics. This led me to the UK Skeptics forum and I've been learning since then.

Obviously, as well as reading the recommended information, I've been making up my own mind as to what to believe. I have yet to see one single psychic prediction that's come true and couldn't have been based on something they'd read elsewhere.

This is why I was so annoyed when I found out that Medium is based on a 'true story'. ::)

[open mind]

You all need to get a life you will all soon be prooved wrong and what are you going to do then oh dear you will have egg on your face. Oh dear what a shame. I have better things to do that deal with small minded pillocks like you on a stupid forum that means nothing to anyone. No one likes you or your board is full of lies and crap. You all need to learn and stop being stupid pillocks a true psychic doesn't need to answer to anyone. Go away and go play on the motorway. Oh and don't forget make sure it's busy.

well said! yes folks I am back!

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

well said! yes folks I am back!

You're obviously into this "love and light" crap as well then?

[bindeweede]

You're obviously into this "love and light" crap as well then?

Buger, (small town in Majorca) - you got there before me. The point you are missing is that is was said in a caring, and essentially "helpful" way. You know, how all of these lovely people just "want to help".

Is there a "vomit" smilie????

[bindeweede]

You all need to get a life you will all soon be prooved wrong and what are you going to do then oh dear you will have egg on your face. Oh dear what a shame. I have better things to do that deal with small minded pillocks like you on a stupid forum that means nothing to anyone. No one likes you or your board is full of lies and crap. You all need to learn and stop being stupid pillocks a true psychic doesn't need to answer to anyone. Go away and go play on the motorway. Oh and don't forget make sure it's busy.

Wrong, pet. This forum actually means a lot to me - there are very intelligent people here, not that I include myself in that category - they are knowledgeable about their subjects. They are logical and rational - they can debate and discuss without resorting to personal attacks. They, in my short experience, have never posted anything about playing on motorways. You have totally lost it.
Have a nice day, now.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

well said! yes folks I am back!

So, are you implying you are the lovely Karlie67....or did you just trawl through the whole forum until you managed to find a post which was on your wavelength?

[wooo_oops]

you will all soon be prooved wrong

duh duh de duuuuhhhh.

HOW many TIMES have I heard THAT before.

When is soon? Hmmmmh? Hhhmmmmmmmmmhh?

And how will we be prooooved wrong, nobody even said they were right. All I do is ask questions and learn about what has been discovered in science and apply that to my reasoning. And for that I am a pillock.

FFS >:-)

'scuse me. Had a Bad Day.
I don't really let it get to me.

[bindeweede]

So, are you implying you are the lovely Karlie67....or did you just trawl through the whole forum until you managed to find a post which was on your wavelength?

Sorry, off-topic. I like your new sig. O-level Latin from 40 years ago.
Just to be on the safe side, there's a cheque for £4.99 in the post.

BW.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

duh duh de duuuuhhhh.

HOW many TIMES have I heard THAT before.

When is soon? Hmmmmh? Hhhmmmmmmmmmhh?

And how will we be prooooved wrong, nobody even said they were right. All I do is ask questions and learn about what has been discovered in science and apply that to my reasoning. And for that I am a pillock.

FFS >:-)

'scuse me. Had a Bad Day.
I don't really let it get to me.

2012, that's when it is all going to happen, yawn ::)

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Sorry, off-topic. I like your new sig. O-level Latin from 40 years ago.
Just to be on the safe side, there's a cheque for £4.99 in the post.

BW.

Thanks, £4.99 should just about cover it.

My memory of Latin doesn't stretch much beyond Caecilius est in horto I'm afraid! Our Latin teacher was nuts, he tried to teach us Greek as well when he had time :-X

[bobdezon]

bindweedes sig is a bit more frankie howard ;)

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Help is at hand!

http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/001565.html

Contains many handy phrases for everyday use, such as Mehercule, illa materia tam valida est ut funditus in modo subiunctivo sim! ( Man, that stuff is potent- I am totally in the subjunctive!)

[bindeweede]

Help is at hand!

http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/001565.html

Contains many handy phrases for everyday use, such as Mehercule, illa materia tam valida est ut funditus in modo subiunctivo sim! ( Man, that stuff is potent- I am totally in the subjunctive!)

Well, Your Lordship, let me slap you in the face with this...

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant! : May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!

Ha!

[bindeweede]

bindweedes sig is a bit more frankie howard ;)

Sorry, Mae West.

[bobdezon]

I was referring to frankies style of prose, especially during his up pompeii series. Double entendre was his forte. ;)

[Lord Muck oGentry]

bw,

Merae fabulae sunt, et eas esse tales scis!

( That's a load of bull, and you know it!)

[bindeweede]

bw,

Merae fabulae sunt, et eas esse tales scis!

( That's a load of bull, and you know it!)

O! Plus! Perge! Aio! Hui! Hem! : Oh! More! Go on! Yes! Ooh! Ummm!

And with that, Good Night.

[bobdezon]

Par pare refero O0

[Muttley]

Is there a "vomit" smilie????

http://www.forumcircle.com/images/smiles/vomit-smiley-015.gif

[bindeweede]

http://www.forumcircle.com/images/smiles/vomit-smiley-015.gif

Muttley,

Excellent - made my day, so far, at least. As it is not one of the smilies from this site, can I ask
where you found it?
how do you "import" it into a reply, like this one?

Thanks.O0

[Muttley]

BW

Concentrate on the smiley. Clear your mind.

You see only the smiley.

I will communicate the answer to you telepathically.

M.O0

[bindeweede]

Is this not yet another strange development in the case?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7062924.stm

This, nearly 6 months since the child disappeared.

This is the Sky Link....

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1290208,00.html

She was in the group of friends who dined with Gerry and Kate McCann on the evening the little girl disappeared.
She said she spotted the man striding from the area of the McCanns' apartment but had not realised the relevance of what she saw at the time.

[bobdezon]

Fantasic sketch, Im sure it will help millions of people know exactly what a random man carrying a small child could possibly look like >:-)

What a waste of resources, who cannot imagine a man carrying a child?

[chillzero]

Indeed - a rubbish picture. Also, the friend is claiming the pyjamas worn by the child were identical to Madelaine's. I can't believe he would pass by un-noticed in that case, or that the friend wouldn't have at least nudged someone to point it out.

And, if I had watched an apartment in order to ensure the adults were clear before going and abducting a child, I sure as hell wouldn't be walking off with the child in the same direction the adults went (or where there are groups of people); and I wouldn't carry the child without wrapping something around her, like a blanket or long coat, to make the child less identifiable.

[Bat E Bird]

Correio da manha

Permission to copy Courtesy of Maya
Translation Courtesy of Li:

2007-11-10
Initiative: British astrologist launches challenge to colleagues
Clairvoyants for Maddie

Jonathan Cainer, one of the most famous and well-paid British astrologers, offered himself to form a team of paranormal professionals, to help the British and Portuguese police in the search for Madeleine McCann.

The clairvoyant wants to sell his luxurious mansion , located in the county of York, in central England, and with this business get funds to start the International Institute of Intuition.

This is a multinational body open to clairvoyants and astrologers of all trends. Jonathan Cainer believes that the convergence of efforts and the establishment of the International Institute of Intuition can help, in fact, to find a solution to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
"I myself have tried without success to find answers to the disappearance of the girl," said the astrologist in statements to the English newspaper 'Daily Telegraph'.

Thus, Jonathan Cainer proposes to set up "rules only for the professionals of the paranormal who cooperates with the police". "Surely that with the lessons that we would collect from each other, the chances of success would be much greater," said Cainer.

http://www.correiodamanha.pt/n.....&p=200


??? ::)

[Admin]

http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=08-06#cainer ;D

We'll have to keep an eye on developments here.

Wasn't it Cainer who opened a venture in York with Uri Geller or someone and it failed? (due to unforseen circumstances obviously)!

I think some Googling is in order.

[Bat E Bird]

http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary_display.php?d=08-06#cainer ;D

We'll have to keep an eye on developments here.

Wasn't it Cainer who opened a venture in York with Uri Geller or someone and it failed? (due to unforseen circumstances obviously)!

I think some Googling is in order.

I did a search on here before I posted because I'd never heard of him before. You have this thread:

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=739

Is this the venture you mean?

[Admin]

Yes that looks like the venture.

I'm just wondering if this new venture is the one he was thinking of replacing the old one with.

Nice of him to use Madeleine McCann to get publicity for it! >:-)

[Bat E Bird]

Jonathan Cainer predicts a £1m home sale

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2007/11/08/npstars108.xml

He also needs the money. "I'm going under a once-in-a-lifetime planetary process of change, which I feel is best expressed by doing something positive for as wide a section of society as I can," he says. "I need to liquidate my assets to do so."

Jonathan is to start the International Institute of Intuition. "In effect, it will be a Mensa for psychics. I feel the world needs this. Take the Maddie case: I can't find an answer - and don't think I haven't looked. Every psychic, astrologer and intuitive is looking, so why not pull together and form an ethical body, so we can set standards and support each other?"

:cheesy:

I didn't realise it had already been reported in the Telegraph. I've been avoiding the UK newspapers. ::)

Looks like you're correct about the publicity thing.

[vbloke]

Jonathan is to start the International Institute of Intuition. "In effect, it will be a Mensa for psychics. I feel the world needs this. Take the Maddie case: I can't find an answer - and don't think I haven't looked. Every psychic, astrologer and intuitive is looking, so why not pull together and form an ethical body, so we can set standards and support each other?"This is the sort of thing that is ripe for an insider...

[Bat E Bird]

Thought I'd post a fellow forumer's comment about the news article I posted yesterday.

Agird says:

Jonathan Cainer might not have to sell his house. Instead he could sit a relatively simple test of clairvoyance for the James Randi Foundation and if proven to have a paranormal ability, collect one million dollars which he could use to set up his proposed institution.

I had a quick look on Randi's website. Seems he has a very high opinion of Mr. Cainer ............... not ;D

[brockers]

I think the truth is rather more mundane in most of these psychic cases. In the case at Soham I read a remarkbale story that claims the police were led to Huntley by a freelance reporter who 'fingered' the suspect some time before he was arrested. Can his intuition be said to be psychic?
Certainly, as in the McCann case, it does point to incompetence from the herd, leaving the lone individual to solve the case
What is astonishing is that police and the press obviously kept all this from us - which is strange.
For further, see...
http://thebigretort.blogspot.com/2007/09/soham-murders-reporter-tipped-off-cops.html

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I think the truth is rather more mundane in most of these psychic cases. In the case at Soham I read a remarkbale story that claims the police were led to Huntley by a freelance reporter who 'fingered' the suspect some time before he was arrested. Can his intuition be said to be psychic?
Certainly, as in the McCann case, it does point to incompetence from the herd, leaving the lone individual to solve the case
What is astonishing is that police and the press obviously kept all this from us - which is strange.
For further, see...
http://thebigretort.blogspot.com/2007/09/soham-murders-reporter-tipped-off-cops.html

It is too easy to make claims after the event unfortunately. We have no proof that is an accurate representation of the facts.

[tolman]

Looking at the linked article, I'd have thought it pretty unlikely for police to assume that no local (friend, family member, neighbour) was involved in a missing child case. I'd also find it odd for someone to draw the conclusion that police had discounted allthe locals apparently based solely on them not having arrested anyone.
Likewise, assuming that the police had failed to notice something simply because they hadn't immediately acted on it does seem rather simplistic, possibly self-servingly so.

[Admin]

Just thought I'd throw this into the fray - not that it's unexpected or surprising news!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/maddie/article549991.ece

Seems like his magic box of tricks doesn't works after all. :shocked:

And it all seemed so promising too back here: http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/10/07/i-know-where-maddy-body-is-98487-19909854/

If that report is accurate (Mirror? :-X) then I wonder just how stupid the Portuguese Police feel in taking this pile of nonsense seriously? ::)

[Matt]

Just thought I'd throw this into the fray - not that it's unexpected or surprising news!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/maddie/article549991.ece

Seems like his magic box of tricks doesn't works after all. :shocked:

And it all seemed so promising too back here: http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/10/07/i-know-where-maddy-body-is-98487-19909854/

If that report is accurate (Mirror? :-X) then I wonder just how stupid the Portuguese Police feel in taking this pile of nonsense seriously? ::)

The article says:


Krugel was dubbed The Locator after finding the body of a missing five-year-old girl in 20 minutes and tracing a paedophile’s victims.

Do we have a source for this claim?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Still, "he did his best" and that's allwe can ask::)

Wonder how much he has financially benefited directly from this case or from the surrounding publicity.

[DrS]

Do we have a source for this claim?Does the Sun use sources?? ???

[Mongrel]

Does the Sun use sources?? ???


So you're suggesting that "A bloke in the pub told me" doesn't count? ;)