Sally Morgan: Star Psychic.

[Admin]

I don't normally watch this sort of crass TV as it's all set up behind the scenes and scripted to make the psychics look good.

But this was on in the background whilst I was on MSN so I left it on.

I can't believe what I'm seeing. ???

Every single test that she's undergone has been an amazing success!! It's so blatantly scripted that I can't believe they have the temerity to broadcast it. Surely they're giving the game away - or are believers really so gullible that they'll fall for it?

Probably - going by the adverts for text messages to find 'your one true love' at £3.00 per text message.

It's more like an infomercial than a TV programme.

[JonDonnis]

Tony Youens wrote a nice piece on her on a recent commentary, worth checking out

[Remote_Viewer]

Every single test that she's undergone has been an amazing success!! It's so blatantly scripted that I can't believe they have the temerity to broadcast it. Surely they're giving the game away - or are believers really so gullible that they'll fall for it?


doh that is because she is an exceptional psychic hence her
amazing success what more can she do to prove to you
she is only using her psychic abilities and nothing more ?

RV

[Cuddles]

are believers really so gullible that they'll fall for it?


doh that is because she is an exceptional psychic hence her
amazing success what more can she do to prove to you
she is only using her psychic abilities and nothing more ?

RV

That would be a yes then.

[Admin]

what more can she do to prove to you
she is only using her psychic abilities and nothing more ?

Well, she could be tested under controlled conditions and then we wouldn't have to worry about things like her having information prior to giving readings etc.

Remember, what you see on TV is what the programme makers want you to see on TV. ;)

[Jocky]

that is because she is an exceptional psychic hence her amazing success what more can she do to prove to you she is only using her psychic abilities and nothing more?
RV

RV:

What she needs to do to show that she has psychic abilities is one straightforward thing: provide a body of evidence which is not anecdotal, but is based on an objective, reproducible protocol and is produced under controlled conditions.

This is the only reliable method of distinguishing between real and make-believe. Anybody who successfully did this would become rich and famous beyond their wildest dreams.

There are many here and elsewhere who would gladly assist her, or any other "psychic", to design a robust method of testing her claims.

Funnily enough, those who claim to be psychic tend to shy away from such objective testing. Why do you think that might be?

[gdaf123]

I was actually one of the people who Sally Morgan did a reading for on Star Psychic.

I went there with a totally open mind and had no real opinion on whether psychic ability is true or not. There was no deliberate attempt on the part of Fox TV to try to set it up ie: they didn't talk to me in advance and try to get me to tell them information about myself that they could then give to Sally.

But what did annoy me was that we were told that if she 'saw' anything that was remotely relevent to our lives, we had to explain why. I felt that this was basically leading her. She was also given a picture of us before the filming even started so she may have been able to get information about us from that too.

I was quite impressed by what she 'picked up' but I feel that it wouldn't have been nearly so accurate if I hadn't helped her along. If I hadn't told her how and why something she said was maybe relevent/irrelevent or true/false it wouldn't have been that good and she would run out of things to say- it also made me look like a totally gullible idiot. Psychics work on the information that their subject consciously/unconsciously gives them and the TV company made sure that she got a lot of help from me.

Then again, it wouldn't have made nearly such interesting viewing if I hadn't...

[Admin]

I was actually one of the people who Sally Morgan did a reading for on Star Psychic.

Does that mean you're a star then?

If so who?

[JonDonnis]

I was actually one of the people who Sally Morgan did a reading for on Star Psychic.

I went there with a totally open mind and had no real opinion on whether psychic ability is true or not. There was no deliberate attempt on the part of Fox TV to try to set it up ie: they didn't talk to me in advance and try to get me to tell them information about myself that they could then give to Sally.

But what did annoy me was that we were told that if she 'saw' anything that was remotely relevent to our lives, we had to explain why. I felt that this was basically leading her. She was also given a picture of us before the filming even started so she may have been able to get information about us from that too.

I was quite impressed by what she 'picked up' but I feel that it wouldn't have been nearly so accurate if I hadn't helped her along. If I hadn't told her how and why something she said was maybe relevent/irrelevent or true/false it wouldn't have been that good and she would run out of things to say- it also made me look like a totally gullible idiot. Psychics work on the information that their subject consciously/unconsciously gives them and the TV company made sure that she got a lot of help from me.

Then again, it wouldn't have made nearly such interesting viewing if I hadn't...

This EXACT same message was posted in a comment on my site.
I believe it is a bogus message John

[Admin]

Well it's certainly not a post we can take on authority.

As I said, the show was just far too good to be true. Either they shot a huge amount of footage and only kept the good bits or Sally Morgan knew the information she was coming out with beforehand - hot reading.

I know what I think!

[gdaf123]

No, its not a bogus post- I put it on both sites because I thought that people ought to know what really went on instead of just speculating.

I answered an advert asking for people to take part in the series so I thought what the hell, I will. To be honest with you, I didnt watch much of the show on TV, but I presume that the filming they did with me and the other people was aired- I was one of the people in the confessional box set up (done so that Sally couldn't see you and your reactions).

[Admin]

This programme was on last night. I turned it off as I find it pathetic. ;D

Anyway, I put this upon the commentary today: Talking to the dead (http://www.ukskeptics.com/commentary/2007/08/02/talking-to-the-dead/).

It gives away some of the tricks that TV uses to make psychics look good.

I think with Sally Morgan they go way over the top and it's so blatant that I can't believe that anyone falls for it.

Evidently some do. Someone emailed me today asking if I could put her in touch with Sally!! :-X

[Dr B]

You should have sent them a copy of "Flim-flam" :cheesy:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I watched about 3/4 of the first programme when it was on a few months ago. I don't think i've ever felt so nauseated watching a 'light entertainment' programme before.

Talk about the current media fixation with telly programmes being fixed, well they should watch this!

[Charlie Croker]

Did you see the episode last night where she read for Bez from the Happy Mondays?

The essential opening:
"I have no idea who you are"

Amidst a load of non-specific nonsense, some specifics:
"April is important - the 17th or 18th"
"I see police around you. Your son wants to be a policeman"

A quick search for Bez on Wikipedia shows that his birthday is April 18th and that his father was a detective.

And then of course, the revelation:
"I sense that you've been to hell and back, quite literally. Something to do with drugs"

No shit Sherlock!

Funny how she didn't pick up such fascinating revelations on his not-so-famous girlfriend. Hmmm....

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Reading well-known people is kind of a win-win situation for her.

She gets more publicity and there is so much information in the public domain that she can't fail to look impressive.

Any psychic who does readings for the stars seems to garner a lot more respect among the believers, and no doubt can raise their fees accordingly.

[tolman]

No, its not a bogus post- I put it on both sites because I thought that people ought to know what really went on instead of just speculating.

I answered an advert asking for people to take part in the series so I thought what the hell, I will. To be honest with you, I didnt watch much of the show on TV, but I presume that the filming they did with me and the other people was aired- I was one of the people in the confessional box set up (done so that Sally couldn't see you and your reactions).
So they knew your name and address well in advance, and when you turned up, they chose you to be on the programme.
I wonder how much could be found out about you (or an average person) from name and address?

What could have been interesting would be if you'd sent someone else in your place, and seen if the reading fitted you better than them.

[abi]

I watched Sally Morgan last night for the first time I was amazed it was so clever then I found your site today and watched the vidio. Very clever I was conned like many others I am sure.

[Rani]

I would like to contact Sally Morgan and If anyone has her contact details please can you let me know by leaving a message or any other way of communication...:smiley: Thank you. Regards Dimple

[tolman]

Surely she'd know if you were trying to contact her, what with her being a genuine psychic and everything?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Surely she'd know if you were trying to contact her, what with her being a genuine psychic and everything?

I tried emailing her a while back to tell her how disgusted I was with one of her readings which revealed the subject had been raped. It was either in very bad taste or completely staged.

I used a facility on her website but I think the email got returned. She never sensed her email link was broken surprisingly enough.

If you aren't emailing to let her know how dispicable her act is, I wouldn't bother. She is a complete fake.

[Admin]

I would like to contact Sally Morgan and If anyone has her contact details please can you let me know by leaving a message or any other way of communication...:smiley: Thank you. Regards Dimple

Why do you want to contact her?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

A thousand and one people would appear to want to meet her:

http://www.unrealitytv.co.uk/reality-tv/sally-morgan-star-pyshcic/

Here are some of the most disturbing:


Linda Gordon said
like a lot of other people would very much like to contact sally for very personal reasons I’m terminally ill and feel that i have people that are trying to contact me please can you get me a contact address..number or e-mail address thanks so much
Linda




george keith said Dear Sally,
I am married to a very beautiful philipino wife and have been for 12 years and have two great boys. She met someone through the internet and i found out now because i spoiled it all for her she says she hates me and has no feelings for me anymore. My heart is breaking as i love her very much and would like to have a reading from a picture of her and find out why my life has come to such a drastic end. Her sister died last year and she seems to have changed so drasticly . She seems to have lost all focus on where her life is going and wants to go out with younger men and do things she never did before we got married. Please Please help i will be so lost without her.



mercy stillman said
My dear sally,
i watch you all your program, I think you are a a wonderfull caring loving person and because you are so real and i can see that you feel for people so much you atracted to my attention and you really make me cry, and i would love if you can when you can do me a reading as i need your help as i trust you, i always wanted someone but a good genuine meduim, as i was having someone in my house 3 month before mum died 3 years ago , the night she died it was terifying in my house since then i have been ill and depressed its a long story, i dont seem to come out of it i have suffered since she has gone i loved her but didnt try hard enough to be there in her last hour or even in her funeral, as i had to catch a flight to gibraltar, but i knowmum is here with me,I NEED YOUR HELP TO MAKE ME FEEL BETTER, please please i need you to give me a reading as i am in fear to do ,with my health, take care , lots of love xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx mercy. stillman



michelle said
dear sally i would love for you to talk to me i lost my sister last year and im struggling every day my relationship with my family is suffering because i dont want to share in their grief and i dont want them to be a part of mine.we used to be so close but when i see the pain in my mums eyes it breaks my heart all over again so i avoid her at all cost






june said hello, i lost a sister many years ago ,and at that young age i was left confused and angry, at the age of 18 yrs i lost my first born son ,again angry and confused, life has not been easy but i went on to become a useful member of society, now not sure which way my life is going, sally can you help





talie said Hi, my friend has recently lost her 11 year old son and is having difficulty coming to terms with the loss. We watched the show the other night and was amazed. She desperatly needs your help in order for her to feel at ease, answer some of her questions and to know that her son is at peace and happy. Please would it be possible for her to have a reading to help her through the difficult times.



And a lot more besides. If this isn't a reminder of why we need to constantly challenge these psychic morons, I don't know what is.

I just can't imagine how devastated some of these people would be if they knew the truth.

[Zaira]

Jocky,

"This is the only reliable method of distinguishing between real and make-believe. Anybody who successfully did this would become rich and famous beyond their wildest dreams."

True. But have you noticed how none of them are in it for the money?
They don't want to get rich.
They just want to help people.

Yeah, and I just want to swim the English channel.

[Zaira]

FarSideOfTheMoon,

That was heartbreaking to read. So much pain and pleading.
My heart goes out to them all.

I feel angry. The way I now see it is that if Psychics can do what they claim, then why don't they just get out there and do everything they can to alleviate some of the suffering?

It's okay, I already know why.
Because they are too busy trying to make a name for themselves.

I think, if I was a psychic, I would be ashamed to admit it.


This is all I can do....

~ My thoughts and my prayers are with you all. ~

[Admin]

That's why I asked why Rani wanted to contact Sally.

These psychics interfere in people's lives often when they are at their lowest and most vulnerable.

I think seeking the advice of such an individual in a time of desperation is, to say the least, inappropriate.

"One of the most alarming things about the mediumistic racket is how completely some people put their lives into the hands of ill-educated, emotionally unbalanced individuals who claim a hotline to heaven...That people who ask such questions of a medium are risking their mental, moral, and monetary health is a shocking but quite accurate description of the matter."
M. Lamar Keene - The Psychic Mafia.

[psychicsarah]

helping people psychically is not about riches or fame...I'm not sure where you get that idea from

Was interested to hear what you thought of Sally....

[Admin]

Well I make no bones about the fact that I think this series she has on TV is probably researched, scripted and highly edited: a complete sham.

There's just too much of a Goldilocks Effect - everything is 'just right'.

Far too good to be true. ;)

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

If she is doing it psychically, then she is doing it the hard way. Much easier to use Wikipedia for some of her guests.

The clip over at Bad Psychics when she 'reads' Liz McClarnon has a blatent edit in the middle. She starts to say one thing, but it is then edited to say another. On that alone, it is a bit suspicious, but add in the hot and cold reading and it is obviously a sham.

[Jocky]

have you noticed how none of them are in it for the money?
They don't want to get rich.
They just want to help people.

Yeah, and I just want to swim the English channel.


helping people psychically is not about riches or fame

Claims of high-minded altruistic motives made by some psychics is an interesting phenomenon. There are basically two ways you can look at this:

1. The "psychic" is a crook, who knows that s/he does not truly possess any paranormal abilities but claims the moral high ground in a cynical act of deliberate deception to lure credulous 'marks' (and of course to avoid the "Why don't you claim Randi's million?" question)

2. The "psychic" is an honest person, who is genuinely motivated by a desire to help people and truly believes that they have paranormal abilities which can achieve this goal

IMO, both of these things go on. Of course, which motive applies is totally irrelevant to whether or not the claimed psychic abilities actually exist. Someone being honest and sincere in their beliefs has no bearing on whether or not those beliefs are accurate.

It seems to me that claiming to be altruistic is only really credible if the person concerned does not gain any (significant) income from giving readings. Someone who actually makes a living doing this is inevitably going to be on a rather sticky wicket giving readings if they claim not to be in it for the money.

Sarah mentions fame. Becoming prominent is another form of remuneration - for some people, for whatever reason, it is even more desirable that mere money. Anybody who goes out of their way to broadcast their psychic readings to a wide audience, even if they are not being paid for them directly, are effectively seeking renumeration in kind for their efforts. Such behaviour belies a totally altruistic motive, as someone who truly just "wanted to help" could do so effectively simply through private communication with the individuals concerned.

If you perform a service for renumeration (of any kind), you should be able to show that the services you offer are effective as advertised. It is reasonable to conclude that anybody who cannot do this is behaving in a deceitful manner. If they were jobbing builders, I'd call them "Cowboys". If they are psychics, I call them Frauds.

[random thoughts]

It also ties in nicely with the diagnostic criteria for the narcissistic personality disorder taken from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis (as with many DSM diagnoses, they must form a pervasive pattern; for example, a person who shows these criteria only in one or two relationships or situations would not properly be diagnosed with NPD):

has a grandiose sense of self-importance
is preoccupied with fantasies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy) of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people
requires excessive admiration
strong sense of entitlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement)
takes advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation) of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)
is often envious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envy) or believes others are envious of him or her
arrogant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrogant) affect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_%28psychology%29).Would be interesting in knowing exactly how many of these "psychics" would actually be diagnosed with this disorder.

[Zaira]

"Helping people psychically is not about riches or fame...I'm not sure where you get that idea from." - psychicsarah


Exqueeeeeeeeeze me?!!

I could add loads of links but I refuse to help them with their advertising!

[Zaira]

Jocky,

Well said. And I agree that it is both. There are those who really believe they have this 'gift' and can help people. And there are those who have discovered ways to manipulate this 'gift' for their own benefit. Personally, if I was a psychic, I would request people’s permission before scrambling into their lives with all sorts of claims.

[Jocky]

Personally, if I was a psychic, I would request people’s permission before scrambling into their lives with all sorts of claims

Quite. The people in question here are the parents and family of the missing child, and they have made it clear that they do not want such scrambling. Therefore, in what way is one being altruistic by offering it anyway?

[Steve Bishop]

STOP THIS

This sort of ting must be stopped the damage it can cause is irreparable, I have past expectance with this sort of clap trap (I was a member of the Magic Circle) she is a fake! what you see on TV is not what transpires her researchers have prior knowledge of who she is going to meet and do a “job” on them gaining all the “private” info trust me it can be done !
I am not taking about the cold read because she is no using that method some researcher is doing a “job” on the interviewee
IF you have lost someone, the only thing I can say to you is time is the greatest healer, whatever you do DONT pay this charlatan money! Go to the place you pray, wherever that is or phone someone who is close to you but DO NOT pay this sort of person money!
Please don’t add any credibility to the fact she was on with Uri Geller, who is a known as a FAKE if you think this man can bend spoons you need help! Look in Google for bongo bender (Ali Bongo the magician who developed the bongo bender for bending spoons and keys)

Steve Bishop

[tolman]

Please don’t add any credibility to the fact she was on with Uri Geller, who is a known as a FAKE if you think this man can bend spoons you need help! Look in Google for bongo bender (Ali Bongo the magician who developed the bongo bender for bending spoons and keys)

Steve Bishop
I'd hope no-one here would think that appearing with the notorious cutlery-molester and 'ex'-magician Geller would add anything to anyone's credibility, unless they happened to be giving him a richly-deserved slapping.

[Steve Bishop]

Prior to anyone appearing on TV the production company will need to (and have to) verify that the people “appearing”are who they say they are, to this end the production company will send out someone to verify you are who you say you are !
So at this point the PC know your name your address your date of birth (they will insist in seeing a passport or driving licence) they may well ask for your Mum’s name or Dad’s name “for verification purposes”
Armed with this info you can conduct all sorts of “searches” Equifax one of the largest credit reference agencies in Europe hold a debase that is updated every twenty four hours (not just with credit information) with every death borth registered in the UK, so you have the person’s name and address you ask the name of the mum or Dad’s name armed with this you make a trip to birth deaths marriages in Holborn and ask for a duplicate birth certificate, armed with this info you go back to Equifax (they leak like a sive) and you conduct a search, have all up to date info.


Steve Bishop

[tolman]

I wonder, if someone published a completely fabricated 'I was a deceitful researcher for Morgan' expose, would it be possible for them to be sued by Morgan without her having to come clean in court?

Note to readers:

Psychicsarah uses Sally Morgan as an example of a good (and presumably 'genuine') psychic.

[Steve Bishop]

Let me demonstrate how simple this claptrap is....

ME Ohhh Sally you are close to the name John...but I see another name Robert...

SALLY... yes that is my husband there his first and middle names

ME is there any significance to the number 26

SALLY wow that is remarkable that is my door number!

ME I see a man and a woman Tony ....Lynne

SALLY unbelievable they are my neighbours

(All this from 10 min's digging on the net)

[Zaira]

I mentioned before that I believe it is quite real ‘extra brain activity’. I can see some ‘psychics’ looking for ways to convince people that they do have something going on… Perhaps they do, but they are misinterpreting it and seeking out facts on the net in order to substantiate what they are telling people.

Sorry, folks. Feel a rant coming on. I ask for your forgiveness in advance.

Calling all ‘Psychic’ folks! There is something going on and you are messing it up for the rest of us with your… Let’s say 'claims'. If it wasn't for your 'claims' we might be able to get someone to take it seriously and do some neurological investigation. But all the reputable people won't touch it with a barge poll!

From what I understand from my experiences is that it is YOU DOING IT! It really is ALL IN YOUR HEAD! It isn’t for anyone else, it’s for you. It is messages from you to you! Normally we wouldn’t be aware of this ‘mental activity’ but it appears that something happened to make us aware of it. It can be a gift or a curse it all depends on how you choose to see it.

The thing to remember is that YOU DON'T HAVE A MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD! YOU ARE NOT GIFTED OR SPECIAL! You just have some slightly unusual brain activity going on, probably because you were dropped on your head as a baby!

Aimed at no one in particular and all so called 'psychics' in general.

Rant over.

I’m off to do some meditating. ::)

[Nils]

Hi.

It was this after watching Sally the other night that led me to join UKS. I was quite amazed at the appalling nature of it all.

She made some quite bad blunders, which is quite sloppy if she used researchers rather than just cold reading. And why is it that people just make what she says fit???

Also. It's quite ridiculous how the link between the spirit world and this one is so variable; it seems quite easy to get quite complicated information across very clearly yet rather difficult to get simple names across without getting garbled.

"is there an Isaac???"
"Oh, wow, you mean Ice Man!"

FFS!!!!

And how come every woman had a fertility problem???

Arghhh.

I need a lie down.

>:-)

[tolman]

She made some quite bad blunders, which is quite sloppy if she used researchers rather than just cold reading. And why is it that people just make what she says fit???
Because a lot of celebrities are actually pretty thick?

[Nils]

Then they need beating with a wet fish.

The human urge to make bizarre nonsense make some sort of sense is far too convenient for people like Sally.

[Zaira]

Talking of bizarre nonsense. I have experienced spirit entities, but I couldn't understand what they were saying. And being a young and rather aggressive Scots lass back then, I lost my head with them and told them to make themselves clearer or F*** off. Surprise! Surprise! They left.

It happened a few times. I may have listened to too many old Scottish tales told by my grandmother. To begin with I was afraid but after a while, with no useful information coming from it, I got pissed off with it and simply asked them to leave. Being older and less aggressive in later years, and perhaps feeling a little guilty at my earlier reactions, I added the suggestion that they keep trying because there were other people out there who were better at this than me (back then I thought there was). I guess I just wasn't very good at it. Or perhaps I have been suffering from a neuroses or a psychoses all my life and never knew it. Who really gives a penny, all anyone has ever got out of them is a message to let someone else know that they are ok. I can do that! They are dead! Of course they are okay! They are free of this insane world and no longer have to endure the trials and tribulation of the human condition!

Why don't 'Psychic' do something useful, like help us all to win the lottery?!!

Now if I could do that we'd all be rich!

[Stig]

The 'spirits' seem to hang around our world and retain the cares and feelings they had whilst alive. Surely the spirit world has something more interesting to offer? There must be something better for them to do? Otherwise what's the point in dying?

[Zaira]

Okay, say there are psychics and they can tell you about someone you know who died. What are they going to tell you that can be of use to you?

I can understand young people getting mixed up in this stuff. Being curious about it and speculating about it. I did too. But having lived with it for some time I know that, no matter where it seems to be coming from or where it seems to be going, it goes nowhere. It isn’t about what psychics tell you, that never really goes anywhere, it’s more about the psychic gathering people around them and getting their name in print.

[bindeweede]

Okay, say there are psychics and they can tell you about someone you know who died. What are they going to tell you that can be of use to you?


I can understand young people getting mixed up in this stuff. Being curious about it and speculating about it. I did too. But having lived with it for some time I know that, no matter where it seems to be coming from or where it seems to be going, it goes nowhere. It isn’t about what psychics tell you, that never really goes anywhere, it’s more about the psychic gathering people around them and getting their name in print.

Zaira,

There is a terrible, terrible old cliche, but like most cliches, it is true....
"Ya born, life's a bitch, ya die". The end. Full stop. Rien. Niente. Zero.

[Allo Allo]

Okay, say there are psychics and they can tell you about someone you know who died. What are they going to tell you that can be of use to you?

And, if they download messages from them, would they be any more intelligent, inspiring, educational etc than when the person was alive?? Uncle James (deceased), couch potato, beer imbiber, page three girl oogler, monosyllabic grunter during family gatherings, is hardly going to be much different dead than he was when alive surely? ! ;D In fact - would he actually know the difference?

[Zaira]

bindeweede,

"There is a terrible, terrible old cliché, but like most clichés, it is true....
"Ya born, life's a bitch, ya die". The end. Full stop. Rien. Niente. Zero."

I have a copy of something I read somewhere. I hesitate to post it or even refer to it... You'll see why when you read it.

Who doesn't want to believe that there is more to life?

And yet somewhere at the back of my mind I think this is true...

Here goes....


>>> The mass of humanity cling to various dogmas in the attempt to make sense out of the world and find meaning in life. The blunt truth is: it doesn't and there isn't. Life has no ultimate meaning. We are just the result of cosmic accident in a universe that has no more concern for us than a speck of dust.
Trying to make sense out of events in the world is like searching for the ’hidden order‘ in a pile of randomly thrown cards. For a lot of people it is necessary to believe that the universe has some design and purpose. Some even believe that the designer has them in mind specifically. These are merely superstitions borne out of fear and ignorance.

Nothing is eternal. Everything we value will eventually fade away into the obscurity of non-existence. A million years from now, or so, the sun will explode leaving no traces of our frenzied efforts to make a mark on the universe.

Death is nothingness. Even life doesn't offer that much. The world is a mechanism set in motion by random forces. Whatever happens is the result of those forces, and there is nothing we can do to change it.

Human beings like to think that we have power to create events and shape the future. That's just more arrogant ignorance. Perhaps the pebbles tumbling about in a stream think that they are responsible for the current's flow. We are just bits of matter tossed around in the currents of time and space. Nothing more. What will be, will be and there is nothing we can do to change it. Even if we could, it wouldn't matter in the end. <<<

[bindeweede]

Zaira

I would be very interested to know where that quote came from. If you, or anyone else, can dig out the source, I'd be very grateful. It accurately summarises my thinking, even though it might be considered rather nihilistic.

Perhaps some people need to believe in something "additional" to everyday life.. I don't have that need. You only get one go at life, so my view is, I'll make the best of it, even though I might not be making a good job of it, and not spend time and thought searching for something that I just don't think is there.

For what any of that is worth.....................???

And I didn't actually ask to be here in the first place.

[Zaira]

Found this. Not sure if it was the original source though.
Have had it in a file of mine for sometime.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/modules/frameworks/framework_nihilism.html


Still looking..... Be back later.

[bindeweede]

Found this. Not sure if it was the original source though.
Have had it in a file of mine for sometime.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/modules/frameworks/framework_nihilism.html


Still looking..... Be back later.

Many thanks. If you don't mind me asking, why did you leave the last 3 sentences out, here and on another thread where you posted the quote? I think they are worthy of quoting.

I've read many of your posts, and you often refer to "a belief system" and similar. I honestly do not understand this, or the need for it. I believe the sun will rise in the sky just after 6am tomorrow morning. What more is there to believe? And if it doesn't, there's nothing I can do about it anyway.

Perhaps I'm a freak of nature;).

[Stig]

Hmmm - not sure I'm quite this nihilistic. But if one day I end up as cosmic dust then cosmic dust I will be. I think I do believe in design but that belief does not extend to spirit planes etc. I think there is far more that we have yet to learn about our world from the cosmos to the sub-atomic... This is much more interesting, complex and difficult than the stuff Sally and Co come up with. I guess though that is the point. Some are ready to believe in Sally and her ilk because she seems to give easy to understand answers where little mental effort is required. If they were to try quantum mechanics instead...

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Hmmm - not sure I'm quite this nihilistic. But if one day I end up as cosmic dust then cosmic dust I will be. I think I do believe in design but that belief does not extend to spirit planes etc. I think there is far more that we have yet to learn about our world from the cosmos to the sub-atomic... This is much more interesting, complex and difficult than the stuff Sally and Co come up with. I guess though that is the point. Some are ready to believe in Sally and her ilk because she seems to give easy to understand answers where little mental effort is required. If they were to try quantum mechanics instead...

Using quantum mechanics as an potential explanation for various paranormal effects is not uncommon within the paranormal world. That doesn't mean they have the foggiest about quantum mechanics though, they just like it as an explanation that they think is 'scientific'.

[Stig]

Using quantum mechanics as an potential explanation for various paranormal effects is not uncommon within the paranormal world. That doesn't mean they have the foggiest about quantum mechanics though, they just like it as an explanation that they think is 'scientific'.

Sorry - that's not what I meant. I haven't the remotest interest in the 'science' of the paranormal. I think physics is complex and fascinating enough without needing to believe in the likes of Sally. I am interested though in how she does what she does - just don't believe there is anything para-normal about it.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Sorry - that's not what I meant. I haven't the remotest interest in the 'science' of the paranormal. I think physics is complex and fascinating enough without needing to believe in the likes of Sally. I am interested though in how she does what she does - just don't believe there is anything para-normal about it.

I was just mentioning that as an aside really. :smiley:

I read a book on quantum mechanics once and I didn't understand a word of it past about page 17.

[Stig]

I was just mentioning that as an aside really. :smiley:

I read a book on quantum mechanics once and I didn't understand a word of it past about page 17.

Wow - you got to page 17! :smiley:

[bindeweede]

Wow - you got to page 17! :smiley:

Some time ago, I posted in the "Humour" section if anyone could explain quantum mechanics to me in a simple way. Cuddles replied with a 2 and a half side "simplified" explanation.

I tried, I really did, to understand, but it is beyond me. Don't actually understand how telephones work.;D

It is probably still there.

[bindeweede]

Some time ago, I posted in the "Humour" section if anyone could explain quantum mechanics to me in a simple way. Cuddles replied with a 2 and a half side "simplified" explanation.

I tried, I really did, to understand, but it is beyond me. Don't actually understand how telephones work.;D

It is probably still there.

It's under, "Do you like a challenge", if my memory is correct.

Edit. Just checked - it is.

[Zaira]

bindeweede,

I don't mind you asking me anything, my friend. Back when I took the copy for my own use, I wasn't interested in the thoughts at the end and had planed to decide for myself how I felt about it. Over time I got interested in forums and decided to seek out other people's view on that particular piece. I was working hard at being positive and I think I was hoping people would think it was nonsense. However, I have had various reactions to it. So I'm none the wiser really.

"I've read many of your posts, and you often refer to "a belief system" and similar. I honestly do not understand this, or the need for it."

The 'belief system' I refer to is a personal philosophy created from reading about other people's ideas and religion. Some might call me an eclectic. I'm not a religious person.

In the end it's only words. There was a time when I needed to believe in something in order to survive. In my urgency I cast my net and raked in whatever I could find. In less desperate times I would work to cut the wheat from the chaff. What I am left with today serves it's purpose.

[Nils]

Sorry - that's not what I meant. I haven't the remotest interest in the 'science' of the paranormal. I think physics is complex and fascinating enough without needing to believe in the likes of Sally. I am interested though in how she does what she does - just don't believe there is anything para-normal about it.

Indeed, that's the interesting part; how they do it. Cold reading is very clever when done by a skilled practitioner.

Unfortunately, Sally's just plain awful! You could drive a rather big lorry through her blunders.

"He was a smoker"

"erm, no"

Or.

"The funeral is next Wednesday" (Nice try Sally, 7 to 1 shot!)

"Erm, no. Tuesday"

"Well look out for a sign on Wednesday"

(Presumably the sign says 'Sally tries to cover her not inconsiderable butt').

:smiley:

[annie]

I don't normally watch this sort of crass TV as it's all set up behind the scenes and scripted to make the psychics look good.

But this was on in the background whilst I was on MSN so I left it on.

I can't believe what I'm seeing. ???

Every single test that she's undergone has been an amazing success!! It's so blatantly scripted that I can't believe they have the temerity to broadcast it. Surely they're giving the game away - or are believers really so gullible that they'll fall for it?

Probably - going by the adverts for text messages to find 'your one true love' at £3.00 per text message.

It's more like an infomercial than a TV programme.

Where did you get that it was edited from? We just dont know that it was edited and theres a chance it wasnt. Do you consider that? I didnt see anything blatent myself but I'm just interested cus i'm thinking about paying money for a reading from sally, but want to be totally sure and would be interested to hear if you have any substantial evidence against what you saw of her practises.

[annie]

bindeweede,



"There is a terrible, terrible old cliché, but like most clichés, it is true....


"Ya born, life's a bitch, ya die". The end. Full stop. Rien. Niente. Zero."



I have a copy of something I read somewhere. I hesitate to post it or even refer to it... You'll see why when you read it.



Who doesn't want to believe that there is more to life?



And yet somewhere at the back of my mind I think this is true...



Here goes....




>>> The mass of humanity cling to various dogmas in the attempt to make sense out of the world and find meaning in life. The blunt truth is: it doesn't and there isn't. Life has no ultimate meaning. We are just the result of cosmic accident in a universe that has no more concern for us than a speck of dust.


Trying to make sense out of events in the world is like searching for the ’hidden order‘ in a pile of randomly thrown cards. For a lot of people it is necessary to believe that the universe has some design and purpose. Some even believe that the designer has them in mind specifically. These are merely superstitions borne out of fear and ignorance.



Nothing is eternal. Everything we value will eventually fade away into the obscurity of non-existence. A million years from now, or so, the sun will explode leaving no traces of our frenzied efforts to make a mark on the universe.



Death is nothingness. Even life doesn't offer that much. The world is a mechanism set in motion by random forces. Whatever happens is the result of those forces, and there is nothing we can do to change it.



Human beings like to think that we have power to create events and shape the future. That's just more arrogant ignorance. Perhaps the pebbles tumbling about in a stream think that they are responsible for the current's flow. We are just bits of matter tossed around in the currents of time and space. Nothing more. What will be, will be and there is nothing we can do to change it. Even if we could, it wouldn't matter in the end. <<<

Wow.... how depressing. I feel sorry for your cold attitude to life. Are you a leo or a libra ?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Where did you get that it was edited from? We just dont know that it was edited and theres a chance it wasnt. Do you consider that? I didnt see anything blatent myself but I'm just interested cus i'm thinking about paying money for a reading from sally, but want to be totally sure and would be interested to hear if you have any substantial evidence against what you saw of her practises.

Hi Annie,

Many of the posters on here are familiar with the techniques frauds like Sally will use. To be honest, every television programme is heavily edited, and one like this is only going to be edited to make Sally look good.

There is more reading on Sally at BadPsychics (http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=506), and I'd certainly recommend you save your money.

The results you get will no doubt be a lot less accurate than what you see on the television when she has had a chance to research the people she is reading.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Wow.... how depressing. I feel sorry for your cold attitude to life. Are you a leo or a libra ?

Having a real understanding of life and it's purpose without having to invent fairy stories or pretend supernatural abilities is incredibly fulfilling. I recommend visiting a few humanist sites to see how living without superstition is anything but depressing.

[bindeweede]

Having a real understanding of life and it's purpose without having to invent fairy stories or pretend supernatural abilities is incredibly fulfilling. I recommend visiting a few humanist sites to see how living without superstition is anything but depressing.

Concise. Precise. Nothing more to say.

[Zaira]

annie,

I don't think it is depressing. I took it to a Zen site and asked for their views. They said it was close to the truth. They don't believe our reality is real.

Oh, and by the way I was born on the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius - I'm bossy and I'm cool!!!


Moon,

Thanks. Couldn't have put it better. I think the real measure of maturity is being able to see the world for what it really is and still have faith in it.

[bindeweede]

Wow.... how depressing. I feel sorry for your cold attitude to life. Are you a leo or a libra ?

Annie,

It's not cold , depressing, Leo or any other nonsense. It's called reality. Try it.

[bindeweede]

annie,
I don't think it is depressing. I took it to a Zen site and asked for their views. They said it was close to the truth. They don't believe our reality is real.
Oh, and by the way I was born on the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius - I'm bossy and I'm cool!!!


Moon,
Thanks. Couldn't have put it better. I think the real measure of maturity is being able to see the world for what it really is and still have faith in it.

Zaira

Please tell me you dont believe in this stuff.

Oh, and by the way I was born on the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius - I'm bossy and I'm cool!!!

I was born December 24th, just before JFC. I ain't bossy and I ain't cool;D.

[Zaira]

bindeweede,

"Zaira, Please tell me you don’t believe in this stuff.

>>>Oh, and by the way I was born on the cusp of Capricorn and Aquarius - I'm bossy and I'm cool!!!<<<

I was born December 24th, just before JFC. I ain't bossy and I ain't cool."


I have posted before about having ran the gauntlet of religion, the occult and astrology. I was a sick little girl with nothing to live for. I was searching for meaning and purpose, something to hold onto. I am who I am today because of ALL my life experiences. I make no excuses. The most important thing for me back then was to survive. And I did!

When we were in our late teens my hubby decided that he wanted to join the army. He was offered a commission because he had some good qualification but he decided he wanted to learn about the army from the bottom up.

That's how I see my life. It might not have been my choice, but I learned about life from the bottom up. And I believe that's why I can and do give others advice - because I've been there.

Don't judge me, my friend. Life has been tough and I am grateful for all the lessons I learned.


PS. What is JFC?

[bindeweede]

Zaira

Absolutely no judgement intended. I am not in a position to judge anyone.

Off-topic, but this site seems to be very, very slow today.

[Zaira]

I think psychics have put a hex on the forum. lol ;)

[bindeweede]

I think psychics have put a hex on the forum. lol ;)

My crystal ball indicates it's a group of psychics up to no good, as you say.
I wonder what the collective term for a group of psychics is:cheesy:.
Could make for a fun competition;D.

[tolman]

I wonder what the collective term for a group of psychics is:cheesy:.
From what I've seen of their predictions, 'a discrepancy' might be an appropriate term, sometimes even if only talking about one of them.

[sdf123]

Hello Everyone..


I went to see Sally Morgan and I payed 150 pounds. To be honest she got a few things right at all and it was 3 moths ago and she told me that things will happens for sure but its never happened.
Now I beleive that on her program she brings famous people then she make research about the person and then edit it and put just something that she got right as when I was there she was asking many question and name and I was saying no no no..until she got something right and try to work on the answers and wasting time on it...
After 3 moths I wrote back to here explaining that nothing happened at all..(maybe she wasnt inspired that day) but after one month I am still waiting for an answer...

People who wants to see her..please dont waste your money.!!:sad:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Hello Everyone..


I went to see Sally Morgan and I payed 150 pounds. To be honest she got a few things right at all and it was 3 moths ago and she told me that things will happens for sure but its never happened.
Now I beleive that on her program she brings famous people then she make research about the person and then edit it and put just something that she got right as when I was there she was asking many question and name and I was saying no no no..until she got something right and try to work on the answers and wasting time on it...
After 3 moths I wrote back to here explaining that nothing happened at all..(maybe she wasnt inspired that day) but after one month I am still waiting for an answer...

People who wants to see her..please dont waste your money.!!:sad:

Hi SDF, thanks for posting your experience. If you have any more details of your reading you could post, that would be very interesting.

I think she comes across as very arrogant (and smug8)), I thnk you will be waiting a long time for any response unfortunately.

[The_Corinthian]

For those of you who are interested, Sally Morgan is going to be on a live TV show. She's going to appear of all places on 'Gems TV', one of Sky's backwater shopping channels.

It will be interesting to see how she fairs up without a script or anyone to edit out the mis-hits. I got my info from this URL

http://www.shoppingtelly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48472

As you can see, I've throw a few rocks at them already. Oddly when I first went to the site you didn't have to be a member to read the messages, now it appears you do.

Anyway, if anyone can record this show, I'm sure it will be worth analysing.

[The_Corinthian]

Where did you get that it was edited from? We just dont know that it was edited and theres a chance it wasnt. Do you consider that? I didnt see anything blatent myself but I'm just interested cus i'm thinking about paying money for a reading from sally, but want to be totally sure and would be interested to hear if you have any substantial evidence against what you saw of her practises.

All non-live TV programmes are edited, you can usually tell this by the credits at the end of the programme. It usually says something like 'Editor'.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

The wait is almost over, The Sally Morgan (http://www.starpsychic.co.uk/) Jewellery Collection has now arrived at Gems TV (http://www.gemstv.co.uk/). Sally herself will be live in the studio to officially launch the range on Friday 19th October.

Sally Morgan is the star of Sally Morgan: Star Psychic, the smash hit television show. A psychic since she was nine months old, Sally was spotted for her extraordinary talent, and was given her own TV series earlier this year. A close friend of the movie stars, the Royals and ordinary people alike, Sally leaves those she reads for utterly gobsmacked. Join Sally as she uncovers the real truth and gossip within the lives of celebrities, past, present and deceased. From television stars to radio presenters, musicians and soap stars, Sally discovers the juicy secrets that were supposed to remain hidden – until now!

Sally is the showbiz medium du jour having read for cinema legend Robert DeNiro, George Michael, Bob Geldof, Uma Thurman and perhaps most notably the late Princess Diana. On her TV show each week Sally’s psychic aptitude is put to the test. Her ability is so strong that not only can she read people’s past and predict their futures, she can also see, hear and speak to dead people with astonishing results.

Sally prides herself on being able to extract accurate information from her clients, providing the ultimate gossip and inside track on some of Britain’s favourite celebs. Rated as one of the world’s top mediums, don’t miss ITV2’s entertainment show, Sally Morgan: Star Psychic if you want to catch all the exclusive secrets first.



I believe BadPsychics have done the Robert De Niro bit, she had to retract that from her website, something to do with just being a blatent lie I think......but still, she is peddling this crap.

Also, quite keen to play the Princess Diana line.

[bobdezon]

Yep, weve had a few dealings with ms "I explode studio lights" morgan.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

spot the difference, from this posted at Sally's 'website'

www.starpsychic.co.uk (http://www.starpsychic.co.uk)



Sally Morgan is the star of Sally Morgan: Star Psychic, the smash hit television show. A psychic since she was nine months old, Sally was spotted for her extraordinary talent, and was given her own TV series earlier this year. A close friend of the movie stars, the Royals and ordinary people alike, Sally leaves those she reads for utterly gobsmacked. Join Sally as she uncovers the real truth and gossip within the lives of celebrities, past, present and deceased. From television stars to radio presenters, musicians and soap stars, Sally discovers the juicy secrets that were supposed to remain hidden – until now!
Sally is the showbiz medium du jour having read for cinema legend Robert DeNiro, George Michael, Bob Geldof, Uma Thurman and perhaps most notably the late Princess Diana. On her TV show each week Sally’s psychic aptitude is put to the test. Her ability is so strong that not only can she read people’s past and predict their futures, she can also see, hear and speak to dead people with astonishing results.
Sally prides herself on being able to extract accurate information from her clients, providing the ultimate gossip and inside track on some of Britain’s favourite celebs. Rated as one of the world’s top mediums, don’t miss ITV2’s entertainment show, Sally Morgan: Star Psychic if you want to catch all the exclusive secrets first.
Sally also has her own range of jewellery available to find out more please
go to www.gemstv.co.uk (http://www.gemstv.co.uk/index.jsp)



Not so much a Sally Morgan website then, as a feeder to Gems TV.

It currently has 3 pages, a Home page, the About page and a Contact page. Nice.

[MischiefMonkey]

A psychic since she was nine months old
(From FarSideOfTheMoon's quote)

???

How would that work then?

Amazing how she could communicate with 'the other side' at an age most people can barely communicate with this side.

And what an arbitrary age. Why not seven months? Why not eleven? How could she possibly know? She couldn't communicate to anyone that she is 'psychic' and could not possibly remember the age she was when she became psychic.

Most people have little or no memory of anything before around 24 months and although they may remember a momentous event, they could not say how old they were exactly unless a parent/adult could correlate the experience remembered with one of their memories and put an age to it.


Unless her mother remembers dropping her on her head or something at nine months and she started getting visions around then....

Otherwise why make up such silly claims? Surely it detracts from her believability?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Otherwise why make up such silly claims? Surely it detracts from her believability?

Not with the type of people who believe she is a psychic superstar unfortunately ;)

[The_Corinthian]

Not with the type of people who believe she is a psychic superstar unfortunately ;)

It gets better guys, I was watching this channel today, and on an advert for her, she claims that she can give readings thought the internet.

Someone please tell me how people can believe this crap? I'm losing my faith in humanity.

[Nils]

It gets better guys, I was watching this channel today, and on an advert for her, she claims that she can give readings thought the internet.



Perhaps she uses the previously missing OSI 8th layer - The Mental Psychic Layer. :cheesy:

[deedee]

I just had to reply when I saw your mail about Sally Morgan, I was actually one of the people on her programme, I lost my brother in a car crash 3 years ago, I spoke to her for 45 minutes although alot was edited out, she told me things that no way could she have found out, ie an incident in my childhood, which only my brother would have known about, alot of what she said could have been researched but alot of what she said only I knew about, I honestly was very skeptic, when I went to see her, and I didnt think it got off to a very good start, but I have to say but the end of the 45 minutes, I defintely knew she was talkin to my brother.

[tolman]

You went to see a TV psychic because you were skeptical?

I'd wonder why, if anyone was actually psychic, they'd spend a large fraction of their time doing the same tawdry entertainment-style psychic stuff that countless fakes seem to be quite capable of doing, telling celebrities things that anyone could have found out about them, etc.

The first explanation would be that an individual doing that stuff was just another cheap fake.
If they actually were real, it would seem like they were almost doing their best to look like a cheap fake, for no obvious reason.

If someone really had psychic powers to the extent claimed by many high-profile media psychics, and wished to dissociate themselves from the herd of evident frauds, I don't see that it should be difficult for them to do in a way that would convince almost anyone.
The fact that no high-profile psychics seem to have done that would lead a skeptic to conclude that either the capacity or intention is lacking, and to tend towards suspecting a lack of capacity.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I just had to reply when I saw your mail about Sally Morgan, I was actually one of the people on her programme, I lost my brother in a car crash 3 years ago, I spoke to her for 45 minutes although alot was edited out, she told me things that no way could she have found out, ie an incident in my childhood, which only my brother would have known about, alot of what she said could have been researched but alot of what she said only I knew about, I honestly was very skeptic, when I went to see her, and I didnt think it got off to a very good start, but I have to say but the end of the 45 minutes, I defintely knew she was talkin to my brother.

Hi, are you aware of a technique called cold reading? For the uninitiated, it produces results that can appear amazing, but are really far from it. Combined with it's pals, warm and hot reading, it explains a lot really.

[chillzero]

I just had to reply when I saw your mail about Sally Morgan, I was actually one of the people on her programme, I lost my brother in a car crash 3 years ago, I spoke to her for 45 minutes although alot was edited out, she told me things that no way could she have found out, ie an incident in my childhood, which only my brother would have known about, alot of what she said could have been researched but alot of what she said only I knew about, I honestly was very skeptic, when I went to see her, and I didnt think it got off to a very good start, but I have to say but the end of the 45 minutes, I defintely knew she was talkin to my brother.

Hi, and welcome to the forum.
You say that a lot of the interview was edited out - do you have an unedited copy? Or even a transcript?
If so, would you be willing to post it for us to view? Perhaps then we can discuss what was possibly given away to her without realising, or perhaps we can see a reading that is in some way convincing of psychic ability. Either way, it should be an interesting exercise.

[filippo lippi]

There was someone else recently who promised a transcript of a reading, what happened with that?

[chillzero]

There was someone else recently who promised a transcript of a reading, what happened with that?

She said she was too intimidated by nasty skeptics, and left, if I remember correctly who you mean.

[filippo lippi]

'twas ever thus

[Matt]

There was someone else recently who promised a transcript of a reading, what happened with that?

If that was Nasib (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=21996&postcount=28), I offered help with the trasnscript but she left citing an abusive PM.

Her account now appears to have been deleted - I hope that before deleting it John has checked her messages and quietly taken any action he deemed necessary.

[filippo lippi]

Oh dear

[stephw]

Hi,

I stumbled accross your website by pure mistake. I was actually looking for some positive feedback as to what people thought of Sally Morgan.. I have just spent the last hour reading all of the posts related to this thread, very intersting reading.

My younger sister went missing 18 months ago, she is suspected to be dead. The police have been unable to find her.

I am generally a sceptical person, but like many gullible people I fell for the Sally Morgan rubbish. I sent an E-Mail through her website asking how much it would be and if it was possible to get a reading on the show. The reply I got back was from somebody on her behalf stating; Her diary for the 2007 show is full but the 2008 bookings would start in December. If I sent my name and a contact number somebody would be in touch

Last week I received a call from a lady called Fern saying that I had made the short list and would be contacted soon to notify me as to whaether or not I had made it onot the shows.

So the point of my post is ....... If the police have been unable to find my sister, there has been no trace of her ie phone records, bank records, tax records and national insurance numbers. Then will Sally Morgan be able to say where she is??

If I get through to the shows, which after reading this I hope so as I will be able to see first hand how much she lies lol, then I will be able to let you all know what she is really like.

Steph

[bobdezon]

Sally Morgan is a proven liar stephw. She will no doubt tell you something. It will not be able to help you though. Psychics and mediums often claim to assist in cases like these but they do not. It is purely for self promotion. I do hope your sister is alive and well, but please dont bother with psychics and mediums as they cannot assist you because their "gift" is imaginary.

[chillzero]

stephw,
Please, please, use this forum that is designed to assist families of missing people:
http://www.projectjason.org/forums/index.php
It is also set up for the UK, although it is at early stages yet.

It is run by a wonderful woman called Kelly Jablowski, whose sone Jason went missing over 5 years ago. She runs a blog:
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

and as part of that blog she ran a series of posts about psychic and how they interfere with the searching, coping and grieving processes of families of the missing. Those entries start here:
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/30606-pmp-introduction-to-psychics-and.html

I write about updates to the site here:
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1545

I would implore you not to subject yourself to the heartache and pain that a 'psychic' can subject you to. You do not need to feel guilty for not following this route - it is not a valid part of the efforts that you can be making. If any psychic could actually do this, it would be a known, proven and used system by the police everywhere. Instead, psychics rely on publicising themselves using these tragic cases, by claiming to have helped the police. We have a list here in the reference section where we have asked various police forces about their use of psychics:
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=25

None claim to use them, and many have said that psychics claiming to have helped the police have merely done what any member of the public can do by contacting them with any suspicions or information. There's a particularly interesting response in there from the Midlands police department.

I am gutted to hear of your loss, but would be more upset to find your distress added to by one of these people. Please don't allow some 'psychic' to ride on the back of your personal trauma, and use you for their own gain. I am very interested in the situations around missing persons, as you can see, so please feel free to PM me, or let me know anything I can do to help.

[chillzero]

If I get through to the shows, which after reading this I hope so as I will be able to see first hand how much she lies lol, then I will be able to let you all know what she is really like.

Steph

I admire that you want to keep an open mind about this, but I want to also provide you with a rather harsh warning. You laugh off the idea of this woman lying to you. The situation goes a little deeper than that. I believe that you have enough stress and concerns about your sister, and I wish you every luck, and every ounce of strength you need to find her again. You need to understand how difficult it can be to hear some of the things a psychic can tell you.

In Kelly's blog I mentioned before, she tells of her visit to a psychic, who tells her her son is dead. Not only that, but she describes how he was picked up by a paedophile, and hit in the head when he refused to comply. Kelly's loving living memories of her son were replaced for a long time by her imagining his death, what he went through, did he die quickly and was he thinking of her when he went?

There's a psychic in America called Sylvia Browne (I recommend http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com) who told the parents of one lost girl that their daughter had been sold into sex slavery in Japan. The child was already long dead and near their home, as her body was discovered later. Sylvia told another family graphic details of their son's death, and how he was speaking his mother's name as he died. That boy was later found alive and reasonably well having been abducted by a local man and kept in his home.

There are many more examples, and I just think you should spare yourself the possibility of having very traumatic images put in your mind. I'm sure you dream up enough of those already.

If you can, please use Kelly's forum to publicise your sister's information, and a few other sites I recommend are:
http://uk.missingkids.com/

http://someoneismissing.com/uk/

http://www.psni.police.uk/index/appeals/missing_persons.htm

Again, let me know if I can do anything to help spread the word and description about your sister.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Hi,

I stumbled accross your website by pure mistake. I was actually looking for some positive feedback as to what people thought of Sally Morgan.. I have just spent the last hour reading all of the posts related to this thread, very intersting reading.

My younger sister went missing 18 months ago, she is suspected to be dead. The police have been unable to find her.

I am generally a sceptical person, but like many gullible people I fell for the Sally Morgan rubbish. I sent an E-Mail through her website asking how much it would be and if it was possible to get a reading on the show. The reply I got back was from somebody on her behalf stating; Her diary for the 2007 show is full but the 2008 bookings would start in December. If I sent my name and a contact number somebody would be in touch

Last week I received a call from a lady called Fern saying that I had made the short list and would be contacted soon to notify me as to whaether or not I had made it onot the shows.

So the point of my post is ....... If the police have been unable to find my sister, there has been no trace of her ie phone records, bank records, tax records and national insurance numbers. Then will Sally Morgan be able to say where she is??

If I get through to the shows, which after reading this I hope so as I will be able to see first hand how much she lies lol, then I will be able to let you all know what she is really like.

Steph

Why would you have to go on the show for her to give you a reading?

I'm sorry, but that is just exploitation of the highest order. Anyone with any compassion and who really had such an ability, would just help you there and then.

If this is true, I feel very angry towards Sally Morgan.

[Julia]

I can only echo what Chillzero and others have said. If Sally Morgan's gift was genuine she would be helping people on demand and not charging for it. >:-)

[chillzero]

I can only echo what Chillzero and others have said. If Sally Morgan's gift was genuine she would be helping people on demand and not charging for it. >:-)

I would have no issue with psychics charging, if they could offer any evidence of the value for the cost. By that I mean that they deserve to make a living if it is their sole occupation - as with private investigators who search for missing people. They should require payment only on successful results in a case, however, and so far, that has never happened. But, when it comes to missing persons, it's all too easy to make use of that situation for personal gain.

[Nasib]

Why would you have to go on the show for her to give you a reading?

I'm sorry, but that is just exploitation of the highest order. Anyone with any compassion and who really had such an ability, would just help you there and then.

If this is true, I feel very angry towards Sally Morgan.

I'm in complete agreement. The Sally Morgans and Sylvia Browne's of this world are nothing but despicable vultures preying on the most vulnerable and exploiting their situations to gain publicity for themselves.

Steph,
I so hope you will think twice about getting roped into this "show" farce, because that's really all it is. I can't see what good can come out of it for you and your family.
Chillzero does seem to have some experience in this area and has given some really good advice and alternative avenues to follow, areas where you'll hopefully find others in similar situations to yourself who can offer you and your family some genuine help and support.
Good luck Steph. I hope you find some peace of mind in what must be a pretty harrowing time for all of you.

[stephw]

Thankyou for all of your replies.

After all of your advice I have decided against using Sally Morgan for anything. I think the trouble is when you lose somebody that close to you, you are willing to try anything to get an answer as to their whereabouts.

I have spent the last 3 hours trawling through the links all of you posted. I must say I feel very clued up on many of the missing people out there right now.


If anybody knows any other way to help, below s the link for my missing sister. Who knows someone somewhere might know where she is.
http://www.missingpeople.org.uk/areyoumissing/missing/detail.asp?dsid=425

Many Thanks

[chillzero]

Thankyou for all of your replies.

After all of your advice I have decided against using Sally Morgan for anything. I think the trouble is when you lose somebody that close to you, you are willing to try anything to get an answer as to their whereabouts.

I have spent the last 3 hours trawling through the links all of you posted. I must say I feel very clued up on many of the missing people out there right now.


If anybody knows any other way to help, below s the link for my missing sister. Who knows someone somewhere might know where she is.
http://www.missingpeople.org.uk/areyoumissing/missing/detail.asp?dsid=425

Many Thanks

Thank you for the info, and I will ensure it is posted up on the Project Jason site by the weekend. If I think of anything else I can do for you, I will let you know. Please let me know if I can do anything for you.

Thank you also for reconsidering - I know it must have been a tough decision, and I am sorry if I came across too harshly. I will do my best to promote your sister's case, and I wish you all the best in finding her.

[chillzero]

stephw, I have sent you a Private Message.

[logitechdog]

Psychics can predict one or more probable outcomes of any given situation -- but free will always plays its part! A psychic reading may be 50 -- 99&#37; accurate, but never 100%.

If you guys want true connection, as me been an introvert, these people are abusing Knowledge against you, with them having a intuitive personality type, many have insight.

Everyone fit's into the 16 Personality type's... Sure many of you have used the myers-briggs personality test... & best part is it's free...


http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/jung.html Read with an open mind

[tolman]

A psychic reading may be 0-100&#37; accurate, but so may any other more or less educated guess.

[Matt]

If you guys want true connection, as me been an introvert, these people are abusing Knowledge against you, with them having a intuitive personality type, many have insight.

Would you like any dressing with your Word Salad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophasia)?

[logitechdog]

Funny nice you brought that up but get with the new times...

In ICD9 under 301.12 Introverted Personality

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19990228212951data_trunc_sys.shtml

under ICD10 Removed


Before Jung came on the scene in the 1920s introversion was used practically synonymously with autism or schizophrenic tendency. Dr. Whitmont states that old textbooks of psychiatry commonly referred to a schizoid person as an introverted or autistic person.

The bias may be gone in some psychiatric circles, but as Whitmont states in his book The Symbolic Quest, the bias against the introversive personality in society continues.


Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944. In four boys, he identified a pattern of behavior and abilities that he called "autistic psychopathy", meaning autism (self) and psychopathy (personality disease).


They Called the person who said the Earth was round Mentally Ill, Like always you people are miss guided, people who are under the Asberger label 97&#37; are Introverts & the description is designed for making charities give up they lovely money, but they don't mention that on the NAS website.

Don’t think just because Doctors or Scientists
say something that it’s any more valid than a physic saying it.

[chillzero]

They Called the person who said the Earth was round Mentally Ill,



Really? Are you sure? Any evidence of that?


It would be nice if you did, considering it is just about the only piece of text you wrote that forms clear understandable english.

[Allo Allo]

Chillzero, Your posts 97 and 98 in this thread are particularly good! They should be archived. What happened to this person I wonder....

There are quite often missing persons posters in our local Tourist Information Centre - they get seen by locals who go in to buy tickets, stamps, parking permits etc - and visitors to the area. Our town is in the most unknown place - so this always surprises me - but why not?

[logitechdog]

Really? Are you sure? Any evidence of that?


It would be nice if you did, considering it is just about the only piece of text you wrote that forms clear understandable english.


Sorry Chillzero, was talking about Matt use of the Word Salad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophasia)?...

As for the proof well first you need to learn ancient language as you can't really trust modern day writings as history in allot of things are false truths, allot of things still get destroyed but then private collectors will never be stopped, sure if any of you know the first book of genesis said to be first written was 500 - 600bc, says Adam & Eve, yet same sex evidence says 500 - 600bc too. Just examples.

Really you need to study it for yourself as I know really trying to fence on 1 side or another people will always support the side they believe in & really to make someone believe you first need to trick them...
http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html

American writer Thomas Bullfinch (1796–1867) said in the Introduction of his book Age of Fable that “The Greeks believed the earth to be flat and circular …”.


Yet when we check Bullfinch's statement with ancient Greek writings we find that his claim was not true of some of the greatest Greek thinkers, such as Aristotle and Socrates. The brilliant fourth century BC Greek philosopher Aristotle wrote in Book II, chapter 14 of his work Heavens (350 BC):
Of the position of the earth and of the manner of its rest or movement, our discussion may here end. Its shape must necessarily be spherical.

[Janot]

American writer Thomas Bullfinch (1796–1867) said in the Introduction of his book Age of Fable that “The Greeks believed the earth to be flat and circular …”.



Yet when we check Bullfinch's statement with ancient Greek writings we find that his claim was not true of some of the greatest Greek thinkers, such as Aristotle and Socrates. The brilliant fourth century BC Greek philosopher Aristotle wrote in Book II, chapter 14 of his work Heavens (350 BC):
Of the position of the earth and of the manner of its rest or movement, our discussion may here end. Its shape must necessarily be spherical.What exactly is your point? The question of how the Ancient Greeks viewed the Earth is not that simple. Bullfinch could be excused for making a generalization relevant to Homeric times and up to Plato, because the majority view seems to be that the world is flat. There was no general consensus. As for Socrates - where the hell do you get his ideas about the Earth from?

[logitechdog]

What exactly is your point? The question of how the Ancient Greeks viewed the Earth is not that simple. Bullfinch could be excused for making a generalization relevant to Homeric times and up to Plato, because the majority view seems to be that the world is flat. There was no general consensus. As for Socrates - where the hell do you get his ideas about the Earth from?




http://www.aplaceinspace.net/Pages/JayjThinking.html

Heres something for you Janot

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Are you ImAPsychic in disguise?

[bindeweede]

Some opinions are better than others. Only the non-thinking credit the opinions of idiots and assholes (technical terms).

You might have something there.

[bindeweede]

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: JAYJ JACOBS became a full-time professional astrologer when he moved from Hawai'i to San Francisco in 1972. He 'discovered' astrology through his father, Don 'Moby Dick The Astrologer' Jacobs, at age 15 in 1964. He began his studies in psychology & linguistics at about the same time. Jayj's serious & witty articles, on a wide variety of subjects, have appeared in 'Astrology Now', 'Aspects', and many others, including Australia's 'The Cosmic Experience'. He has also contributed to three Llewellyn anthologies, most recently to "Sexuality in the Horoscope". Jayj is the recipient of the UAC'98 Regulus Award for Community Service and is a co-founder of AFAN & the longest serving member of its Steering Committee. He is also the Founder & Self-Appointed President-For-Life of the Professional Society of Humorous Astrologers Worldwide - PSHAW. His Captain Color characters & quips are renowned on many Internet astrology lists. Contact Jayj by e-mail at: JayjJacobs@aol.com (JayjJacobs@aol.com) and visit his website:

The words "stick" and "dip" come into my mind. But not necessarily in that order.

[tolman]

Whatever 'dog is, they aren't making much sense, and I don't get the feeling that that's because their position is so profound, just that they are either
a) unable to construct a clear argument
or
b) attempting to troll through subliteracy.

Sadly, both those possibilities seem rather common. Fortunately, both can generally just be ignored.

[MischiefMonkey]

Don’t think just because Doctors or Scientists
say something that it’s any more valid than a physic saying it.


Thank you for the advice. And I don't. There are Doctors who give questionable advice. Harold Shipman for example. That fella at the centre of the MMR controversy (Wakefield?) If a person who happened to believe themselves 'physic[sic]' (I am presuming you mean 'psychic'?) told me something that had good evidence behind it, such as peer reviewed double blind clinical trials, I would accept their good evidence, same as with a doctor or scientist.

However most psychics seem disinterested in good evidence, preferring anecdotes.

As to the rest of your post, it displays an extraordinary misunderstanding of Autistic Spectrum Disorder. While Autism (and Asperger's) may attract controversy, it is a group of symptoms that go much further than introversion.

[DrS]

http://www.aplaceinspace.net/Pages/JayjThinking.html

Heres something for you Janot
Funny, I was expecting YouTube. None the less, what does it have to do with anything?

[logitechdog]

As to the rest of your post, it displays an extraordinary misunderstanding of Autistic Spectrum Disorder. While Autism (and Asperger's) may attract controversy, it is a group of symptoms that go much further than introversion.

No offence MischiefMonkey, but I am diagnosied with ASD, & basicly they say words like this, they think autism is caused by this & that, they don't help anyone other than here is your diagnosises get this book on ASD & they is the door. Most of they problems can be explained through other medical problems, & dealing with it like that gets you back to the part your still an Introvert... Some autisic people get renamed under ASD as they older, most are under sweets of drugs.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/autismrights/#detail think that tells you the truth

Really you should get a book like "The introvert Advantage: How to thrive in an Extrovert world" to understand the truth about introverts.

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/autism/as_hfa.asp

[chillzero]

Chillzero, Your posts 97 and 98 in this thread are particularly good! They should be archived. What happened to this person I wonder....

There are quite often missing persons posters in our local Tourist Information Centre - they get seen by locals who go in to buy tickets, stamps, parking permits etc - and visitors to the area. Our town is in the most unknown place - so this always surprises me - but why not?

Thank you, Allo Allo. I need to get back on top of this, actually, as I feel I have failed my promise. I have been waiting for word back from Kelly about posting on behalf of another on the site, and then I was really sick over the xmas break - poor excuses really.

I'll get it sorted and post a new thread with info when I can.


No offence MischiefMonkey, but I am diagnosied with ASD, & basicly they say words like this, they think autism is caused by this & that, they don't help anyone other than here is your diagnosises get this book on ASD & they is the door. Most of they problems can be explained through other medical problems, & dealing with it like that gets you back to the part your still an Introvert... Some autisic people get renamed under ASD as they older, most are under sweets of drugs.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/autismrights/#detail think that tells you the truth

Really you should get a book like "The introvert Advantage: How to thrive in an Extrovert world" to understand the truth about introverts.

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/autism/as_hfa.asp


You have still missed the point that there is a difference between being introverted, and having ASD or any form of autism.

[Mulder]

If you ask a doctor to describe a disease, such as measles, they can tell its symptoms, what causes it, how it is spread, what its effects in the body are and how it can be treated.

If you ask a psychiatrist to describe a particular psychiatric disorder they will simply describe a bunch of symptoms! They won't be able to tell you much else because they don't know much else. Psychiatry is where medecine was in the age of leeches! Just my opinion, of course. I'd better go and take my pills now ... :smiley:

[MischiefMonkey]

No offence MischiefMonkey, but I am diagnosied with ASD, & basicly they say words like this, they think autism is caused by this & that, they don't help anyone other than here is your diagnosises get this book on ASD & they is the door. Most of they problems can be explained through other medical problems, & dealing with it like that gets you back to the part your still an Introvert... Some autisic people get renamed under ASD as they older, most are under sweets of drugs.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/autismrights/#detail think that tells you the truth

Really you should get a book like "The introvert Advantage: How to thrive in an Extrovert world" to understand the truth about introverts.

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/autism/as_hfa.asp

No offence taken.

You said 97% of people diagnosed with Asperger's are 'introverts'. This is possible (though a relevant cite might be nice) - being introverted would not be unlikely in a person who has difficulty interpreting other people's emotions, non-verbal communication and the nuances of social interaction. However, to get a diagnosis of Asperger's or Autism a person would need to display more just an introverted personality type.

I was going to write more, but I am finding it very difficult to understand your posts. Your links don't seem to tally with the points they are supposed to support which confuses me further.

[Mulder]

Autism, introvertion, Aspergers ...

There are word definitions for these 'states' but what ARE they really? What is their physical cause, significance and relationship? Until, there is some real science behind such 'conditions', it is all just mere semantics.

Umm, sorry, some men in white coats are at the front door. I'll just go and see what they want and I'll be back in just a sec ...

[Allo Allo]

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/autism/as_hfa.asp

Fortunately the link to "How to tell if you or anyone you know has AS" on this link doesn't work for me. I find I usually have nearly all of the symptoms of nearly every condition known. At least I won't have AS today - what a blessing!

[Matt]

Autism, introvertion, Aspergers ...

There are word definitions for these 'states' but what ARE they really? What is their physical cause, significance and relationship? Until, there is some real science behind such 'conditions', it is all just mere semantics.

Umm, sorry, some men in white coats are at the front door. I'll just go and see what they want and I'll be back in just a sec ...

The evidence is that the causes of Austism Spectrum Disorders are genetic. I'm not sure what you mean by significance and relationship. However there's plenty of real science being done.

[Mulder]

The evidence is that the causes of Austism Spectrum Disorders are genetic. I'm not sure what you mean by significance and relationship. However there's plenty of real science being done.

OK, so tell me, scientifically what exactly IS autism (without listing symptoms!)?

[chillzero]

OK, so tell me, scientifically what exactly IS autism (without listing symptoms!)?

Your statement: "Until, there is some real science behind such 'conditions', it is all just mere semantics." is mistaken, as there is much research being undertaken on this matter.

The fact is that much is being done to research this field, and determine how best to manage and treat it, for sufferers and their families.

http://www.researchautism.net/pages/welcome/home.ikml

This is one of the biggest, most up-to-date, and most reliable websites in the world for information about interventions (http://www.researchautism.net/pages/interventions/) – treatments, therapies and services – used to help people with autism spectrum disorders (http://www.researchautism.net/pages/autism) such as autism and Asperger syndrome.
Here you can find scientifically valid (http://www.researchautism.net/pages/studies/standards) information about interventions and whether or not they are effective. You can also search (http://www.researchautism.net/advancedresults.ikml?n) for the interventions which work best for specific problems or for specific groups of people.



http://www.autismspeaks.org.uk/

New documentary about autism
Parents Steve and Parool Jeppeson have an autistic son called Stian. They are given the unique opportunity to meet the scientists on the forefront of autism research in a hope to find out more about Stian’s condition. ‘What Can Science Do for Me – Autism’ is a must watch programme. First screening is on Thursday 22nd November at 8pm. Watch online here (http://www.communitychannel.org/content/view/1688/135/) ( available from November 22nd, 9pm).




http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/arc/default.asp

The mission of the ARC is to understand the biomedical causes of autism spectrum conditions, and develop new and validated methods for assessment and intervention. The ARC fosters collaboration between scientists in Cambridge University and outside, to accelerate this mission.


On the JREF Forum we have a few autistic members, one of the most popular and active in raising awareness of asperger's, etc, is TobiasTheCommie. I'd recommend the following for info:

His website:
http://www.autismmyths.com/

Some interesting threads:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75290

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45336

[Matt]

OK, so tell me, scientifically what exactly IS autism (without listing symptoms!)?

I'm no expert but encountered the evidence of a link with a faulty version of the MET gene during a debate on the JREF regarding vacinations.

I can't find the linked page right now.

Autism spectrum disorders are a group of developmental disorders caused by unusual brain development.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/overview.htm#causes


What causes autism?
We have learned a lot about the symptoms of ASDs and have improved efforts to track the disorders, but we still don’t know a lot about the causes of ASDs. Scientists think that both genes and the environment play a role, and there might be many causes that lead to ASDs.
Family studies have been most helpful in understanding how genes contribute to autism. Studies have shown that among identical twins, if one child has autism, then the other will be affected about 75% of the time. In non-identical twins, if one child has autism, then the other has it about 3% of the time. Also, parents who have a child with an ASD have a 2%–8% chance of having a second child who is also affected.[5] (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/overview.htm#_ftn5),[6] (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/overview.htm#_ftn6)
For most people with ASDs, the cause is not known. But ASDs tend to occur more often than expected among people who have certain other medical conditions, including Fragile X syndrome (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/glossary.htm#FragileX), tuberous sclerosis (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/glossary.htm#TuberousSclerosis), congenital rubella syndrome (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/glossary.htm#CongenitalRubellaSyndrome), and untreated phenylketonuria (PKU) (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/glossary.htm#PKU). Some harmful drugs taken during pregnancy also have been linked with a higher risk of autism, specifically, the prescription drug thalidomide (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/glossary.htm#Thalidomide).
CDC’s Centers for Autism and Developmental Disabilities Surveillance and Epidemiology (CADDRE) (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/dd/caddre.htm) are working together on a large, population-based study to better understand the possible risk factors for and causes of autism. Called the Study to Explore Early Development (SEED) (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/caddre.htm), this project will help answer the many questions needed to find the causes of autism and—if possible—come up with strategies to prevent this complex disorder.

[Matt]

His website:
http://www.autismmyths.com/


Yup that's the one I was looking for... well the person if not the article in particular.

[Mulder]

Quote from above: "We have learned a lot about the symptoms of ASDs and have improved efforts to track the disorders, but we still don’t know a lot about the causes of ASDs"

Thanks Matt and Chillzero, you are pretty much making my point for me. Until someone can point to something in the brain and say 'that bit's going wrong and this is how', we won't know what autism really is. Until then psychiatrists are treating symptoms and not the disorder. Psychiatry is still in the dark ages.

[Matt]

Quote from above: "We have learned a lot about the symptoms of ASDs and have improved efforts to track the disorders, but we still don’t know a lot about the causes of ASDs"

Thanks Matt and Chillzero, you are pretty much making my point for me. Until someone can point to something in the brain and say 'that bit's going wrong and this is how', we won't know what autism really is. Until then psychiatrists are treating symptoms and not the disorder. Psychiatry is still in the dark ages.

Perhaps in some respects this is true. however the darks ages characterises a time of stagnation where no progress is made. To suggest that no scientific progress is being made is rather disingenuous.

Secondly with a developmental disorders, typically treating the symptoms is all that can be done. Progress will more likley lead to prevention rather than cure.

We might know exactly how thalidomide operates on a foetus to prevent propper development of limbs but thats not going to help us grow any arms back once the damage has been done.

[Janot]

http://www.aplaceinspace.net/Pages/JayjThinking.html

Heres something for you JanotTo be honest, I have never really known how to react when I ask a simple question and get a reply to a different one, especially one referring to astrology, a subject on which I have very strong views [i.e. total bollocks].

If you are SorryImInsane in disguise, go away. If not, talk to her.

[Cuddles]

Until then psychiatrists are treating symptoms and not the disorder.

I've never understood why people always make such a big thing about this? What's so bad about treating symptoms? If I have a headache and take a painkiller, what do you think I have done if not treat just the symptoms? Essentially all diabetes treatment is just the symptoms. Same for asthma. Same for millions of other medical problems. Sure, it would be great if we could cure everything, but the fact is that we can't. Considering that the brain is by far the most complex part of the body, it's pretty impressive that we can make any difference at all. Claiming that such an advanced field is in the dark ages just shows ignorance of what is actually done.

[Tony Papard]

I don't normally watch this sort of crass TV as it's all set up behind the scenes and scripted to make the psychics look good.

But this was on in the background whilst I was on MSN so I left it on.

I can't believe what I'm seeing. ???

Every single test that she's undergone has been an amazing success!! It's so blatantly scripted that I can't believe they have the temerity to broadcast it. Surely they're giving the game away - or are believers really so gullible that they'll fall for it?

Probably - going by the adverts for text messages to find 'your one true love' at £3.00 per text message.

It's more like an infomercial than a TV programme.

I agree it seems too accurate to be true, and Sally Morgan is a bit too effusive for my liking. I much prefer Colin Fry and Tony Stockwell, who were in 'The 6ixth Sense'.

With Sally Morgan's TV show it could be a staged event, but with Colin Fry's I don't see how it could be. He'd have to have had 'plants' in the audience who were actors of Hollywood Oscar winning caliber, paid them well and then somehow prevented any of them from exposing Colin as a fraud for even more money to the tabloid press.

With Sally Morgan's show too, she'd have to have had a lot of collaborators to stage the accurate messages, and again any one of them could have exposed her as a fraud to the tabloid press for money.

It is hard to imagine how she could give accurate readings just by speaking to complete strangers over the phone, or in a confessional.

With the celebrities, she could have read or googled a lot about them, even though they say she was only told who she'd be reading for just beforehand.

I got a very accurate message from Colin Fry last year at Fairfield Halls, Croydon. It concerned a woman called Edith who lived to a good old age, had a fall then quickly deteriorated. (This fitted my grandmother and probably a lot of other people.) But he then went on to describe a kitchen recently renovated by cowboy builders, and said on the left someone had stood a hot pan on the new working surface, burnt it and tried to cover the damage. (This was my mother's kitchen, just refurbished, and I had indeed done exactly that, trying to cover the damage with adhesive tape and then a table mat.) No way could Colin have known any of this, and I can't see how anything so specific could be 'cold reading'. He couldn't even see me as I was way up at the back of the balcony.

I've also had messages come direct, including from my life-partner who has helped me to find things. I asked him where some negatives were, and next day I was told to look on the top shelf of the larder of all places, and found them. He also told me where to find a cover for my Walkman, which he'd asked me to get just before he died. This was in another cupboard and I didn't know it existed. I wrote him post-humous letters, and said in one 'should I now stop writing these letters to you?' Next day I got the reply when I suddenly had an urge to pull one of his vinyl albums out at random. Without looking at the sleeve or having any idea what the record was, I stuck the needle down anywhere and Dorothy Squires answered my question of the night before: 'love letters straight from your heart keep us so close while apart'.

My dad once screamed at my mum (after they were divorced) when he visited her, was taken up to see my bedroom and said: 'What do I see on the walls of my son's room - murderers!' He was referring to tapestries of Lenin and Stalin, which I later took down. However his picture of EOKA-B terrorist George Grivas stayed on his mantelpiece and later wall for the next 20 years or so. After my dad's funeral I was in his house in Cyprus for just about an hour, and his picture of Grivas fell out of its frame. Coincidence? There comes a point when too many coincidences like this just can't be put down to 'coincidence'.

[Admin]

Hi, Tony.

Do you have a tape recording of your reading from Colin Fry?

If so, would you send it on to us to have it analysed?

[Tony Papard]

Hi, Tony.

Do you have a tape recording of your reading from Colin Fry?

If so, would you send it on to us to have it analysed?

No I don't have a tape recording I'm afraid.

I went to Fairfield Halls mainly to see how Colin and Tony performed 'live' as compared to on a TV show which could be edited to make them appear more accurate than they really were. I have to say they seemed just as accurate 'live', certainly in my case, and judging from the reactions of other audience members.

Sally Morgan I'm not so sure about, but I'd say these psychic TV programs are more likely to be 'edited' than 'scripted'.

Many atheists/agnostics are now studying the paranormal evidence, including that for 'survival' (the afterlife) from an empirical standpoint. The indications are that there is a scientific basis for all this, and that the phenomena are real, including alternative dimensions as postulated by quantum physics.

Of course there will always be frauds in any sphere, and there are undoubtedly fraudulent mediums. There are also genuine ones.

[Admin]

Well I've yet to see any compelling evidence of psychic ability or for the afterlife hypothesis.

What do you make of Colin Fry being caught cheating?

See: http://www.tonyyouens.com/colinfry.htm

[Tony Papard]

Well I've yet to see any compelling evidence of psychic ability or for the afterlife hypothesis.

What do you make of Colin Fry being caught cheating?

See: http://www.tonyyouens.com/colinfry.htm

I am aware of this incident, and Colin indeed mentions it in a book of his I read. He claims it was all down to this mischievous spirit entity called Daniel.

I have to say that I am not convinced by physical mediumship myself, but then I've never been to such a seance. I'm a member of a society which may give me the opportunity to do so. However magicians and conjurers/illusionists can reproduce many of the things which physical mediums do.

Because it is so open to trickery and fraud, physical mediumship is usually now confined to serious groups studying the phenomena.

Whether Colin Fry/Lincoln was cheating on this occasion or not, he certainly appears to have real clairvoyant abilities, which in any case I find more convincing than the accounts of physical mediumship I have read about involving trumpets, cabinets, darkened rooms, bondage, ectoplasm, etc. it all sounds too much like a stage illusion, but then again serious investigators have said materializations by mediums like David Thompson are genuine. I reserve judgment till I've attended such a demonstration myself.

I still feel Colin Fry is a genuine medium with real psychic abilities, whatever may have happened 16 years ago when he was less experienced.

[Admin]

I am aware of this incident, and Colin indeed mentions it in a book of his I read. He claims it was all down to this mischievous spirit entity called Daniel.

Funny how someone walked in and turned the light on at the same time that a mischievous spirit had control of Colin Fry!

I bet all the times when someone didn't walk in and turn the lights on it was a friendly spirit floating the trumpet all by itself!

Only a True Believer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_believer_syndrome) would accept such a ridiculous explanation. He was faking it - pure and simple.


I still feel Colin Fry is a genuine medium with real psychic abilities, whatever may have happened 16 years ago when he was less experienced.

He might be good at what he does, whether it's waving trumpets around in the dark or Cold/Warm/Hot Reading, but psychic? I very much doubt it.

[tolman]

Even if a psychic could get a spirit to wave trumpets around in the dark, or, like certain 'psychics' from the McCann drama, predict what was in a newspaper they claimed not to have read, it'd be a singularly useless thing, since I can read newspapers and lift trumpets without needing any psychic abilities.

If there exist spirits capable of lifting objects who truly want to be helpful, why don't they go and find a quadriplegic person who might welcome their assistance, rather than pissing about in darkened rooms?

[scoobyjack]

If there exist spirits capable of lifting objects who truly want to be helpful, why don't they go and find a quadriplegic person who might welcome their assistance, rather than pissing about in darkened rooms?
Brilliant, I am going to keep that comment for some believer friends;D

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

It's a simple question of probability.

What is more likely, that Colin Fry was moving the trumpet himself, under his own control, in the dark? Or that there was a mischevious spirit doing it when we have no solid evidence that spirits even exist?

Tricky one! ::)

Somehow I think the fact that it was deliberately dark, may just have something to do with it.

[carole]

Dear sally im writing to you to see if you do private readings for none stars, i watch your programme on itv2 and i think you are very good i would be grateful if you could email me back to let me know my email address is [link removed] thank you very much for your time hope to hear from you soon.

[Mongrel]

Dear sally im writing to you to see if you do private readings for none stars, i watch your programme on itv2 and i think you are very good i would be grateful if you could email me back to let me know my email address is [link removed] thank you very much for your time hope to hear from you soon.

Looks like someone got lost...

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Or irony isn't dead after all! ;)

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Dear sally im writing to you to see if you do private readings for none stars, i watch your programme on itv2 and i think you are very good i would be grateful if you could email me back to let me know my email address is [link removed] thank you very much for your time hope to hear from you soon.

If you watched Harry Hill last night you would know she doesn't do stars anyway ;)

[pilgrim]

SALLY MORGAN ON T.V. – Absolutely Amazing.
SALLY MORGAN ON STAGE – Rubbish Beyond Belief!!!!

What is going on here?

After watching Sally’s TV. Series my friend Richard & I both felt that she was the best psychic that we had ever seen on TV. We never doubted the integrity of the producers when they said that Sally had no prior knowledge of the people that she was going to read. We had seen Colin Fry & Tony Stockwell live on stage & were both happy with their performances so we looked forward to one day seeing Sally.

We had taped Sally’s TV shows & lent them to Jackie, telling her & others that she proves beyond doubt that there is life after death. We sang her praises & long last finally closed the door on the remaining scepticism regarding the after life. When we booked our tickets to see Sally in Grimsby Our friend Jackie came too.

On arrival we were given small cards to write a question to Sally. Both the examples were questions relating to how things would turn out in the future which did seem a bit odd. If we hadn’t been amazed by Sally on the TV we would have been suspicious as telling the future doesn’t prove that the medium has any psychic ability. Richard mentioned later that he wondered if we were supposed to believe that those on the other side knew the future? Whilst we were waiting to go in a man came to me & asked if I Would like to ask Sally a question on video that may get shown to the audience. “Wow” I was so excited at the possibility of getting a reading.

Sally started the evening with a fairly long talk about herself growing up which was accompanied by photos. I found this to drag on way too long. When she next showed some clips from her TV series I wasn’t happy, as I had come to see her give readings. Once she started the readings I sat in utter disbelief, as more & more people said “NO” to her statements. Each person also had the video camera on them so that they could be seen very clearly on the big screen. I watched as she said a name to someone & when she saw them looking confused or shaking their head she either changed or twisted the name to mean something completely different or cut the reading off & quickly moved on to someone else. I was getting angrier & angrier at the total charade of this woman who obviously wasn’t concerned that she was exploiting & conning some very vulnerable people. My blood began to boil and before the first break I had to walk out before I started shouting out. Jackie & Richard came out soon after & we all agreed that she was Absolutely Crap. Jackie wanted to give her a second chance in case it was just nerves at being with such a large audience. I felt that if she was genuine & that was the case she would have apologised, stopped the show & offered a refund to keep her reputation. Richard & I agreed to go back in but I was just hoping that she would choose my video question so that I could ask her why she was Rubbish Beyond Belief.
The second half was just the same deceit & lies. A very distressed woman asked about her recently deceased brother & Sally got it all wrong again. The woman ended up telling her most of what happened & Sally asked if he died in the car, to which she said no. Next Sally asked if he died in the ambulance & the woman said that he died in Hospital. I couldn’t stand much more of this & was getting ready to walk out again before I lost my temper with this patronising, condescending con woman. When she lied to an extremely distraught woman about her deceased grandchild I couldn’t stay one more minute & marched out.

Surely somebody out there could investigate the making of her TV series as in my opinion it had to be rigged. SALLY YOU ARE A DISGRACE & AN INSULT TO PEOPLE WITH INTELLIGENCE.

[bobdezon]

you seem to be under the impression that psychic ability is a reality? :undecided:

[Admin]

I don't believe anything like this that's shown on TV. It's always cherry-picked and edited footage we get to see and I suspect a lot of it is stage-managed and even scripted: certainly in Sally Morgan's case.

Where they went wrong, IMO, with Sally Morgan was in make her look too good on the TV series. Even if she was a good live performer there's no way she could back up what she appears to do on TV.

If her stage show is really that bad then at least it shows that she's not using stooges in the audience, using info from fans' emails they sent to her before the show and reading it back, using assistants to talk to the audience before the show to glean info, etc. - i.e. the usual deception that psychics use (allegedly ;)).


SALLY MORGAN ON T.V. – Absolutely Amazing.
SALLY MORGAN ON STAGE – Rubbish Beyond Belief!!!!


I think those who watch TV and believe it and who have subsequently seen her live performance need to think about why there's such a discrepancy between the two.

Then, of course, make the conceptual leap from applying the conclusion to Sally Morgan and applying it to other 'gifted' TV psychics (!)

[filippo lippi]

SALLY YOU ARE A DISGRACE & AN INSULT TO PEOPLE WITH INTELLIGENCE.



As are all the other 'psychics,' though the others may be better at pulling off the con.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Interesting article in today's Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/sally-morgan-i-am-not-mad-i-am-not-unhingedi-talk-to-dead-people-942336.html

Worth a read. Her protestations in the article remind me very much of Derek Ogilvie's this week.

[Bat E Bird]

Psychic 'contacted by spirit of murder victim’ at Blackburn show

A CELEBRITY psychic has offered to help police after claiming the spirit of a murder victim contacted her during a Blackburn show.
During an appearance at King George’s Hall, Blackburn, Sally Morgan claimed to have to have been contacted by a 19-year-old man who said that one of the audience knew his killer.....


... Lancashire police said there were no undetected crimes of this nature in East Lancashire.



::)


http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/4141873.Psychic__contacted_by_spirit_of_murder_vic tim____at_Blackburn_show/

[Cradle Cap]

I don't believe in psychics because I don't believe in spirits and the afterlife and the one follows the other (doesn't it?). However, I never seem to get a plausible explanations to *how* they do what they do.

When I was dragged along to see Sally Morgan, I expected to come away a complete disbeliever, but she got hit after hit, and it wasn't, 'Mick, Mike, Michaela..' either. She'd get names on the nail, and she knew very specific details she couldn't possibly have known beforehand or even from any other source.

I'm still a non-believer, funnily enough, but she was doing *something*.

[Matt]

I'm still a non-believer, funnily enough, but she was doing *something*.

Maybe it's called cheating.

Where you asked to fill in information cards? Were there credit card bookings? Did you all gather and chat in an ante chamber before the perfomance? Do you have a recording or transcript we can check for cold reading?

[Nasib]

I don't believe in psychics because I don't believe in spirits and the afterlife and the one follows the other (doesn't it?). However, I never seem to get a plausible explanations to *how* they do what they do.

When I was dragged along to see Sally Morgan, I expected to come away a complete disbeliever, but she got hit after hit, and it wasn't, 'Mick, Mike, Michaela..' either. She'd get names on the nail, and she knew very specific details she couldn't possibly have known beforehand or even from any other source.

I'm still a non-believer, funnily enough, but she was doing *something*.

'Hot reading' is a possibility (?)






John Jackson:
I think those who watch TV and believe it and who have subsequently seen her live performance need to think about why there's such a discrepancy between the two.

Then, of course, make the conceptual leap from applying the conclusion to Sally Morgan and applying it to other 'gifted' TV psychics (!)

Not necessarily

[Cradle Cap]

Hot reading is pretty much the only possibility for some of the stuff she was coming out with, but she would have had to have been in collusion with the subject to know it, it was so personal. And, you kind had to be there, but these were just really normal people. They were dazed and surprised by what she was coming out with; there's no way the emotions were manufactured.

[Dubious Dick]

Cradle Cap. There really is very little point debating this without a full video recording of the show. Added to that, you should look into just how easy it is to research people. There are a number of different approaches to hot reading as Matt has already hinted at with his questions.

I also suggest that you watch the latest Derren Brown show 'Evening of Wonders', where he performs what appear to be the most incredibly accurate mind readings on various members of the audience.

Now, if Derren can do it using techniques and tricks, so can Sally Morgan.

[Cradle Cap]

Cradle Cap. There really is very little point debating this without a full video recording of the show. Added to that, you should look into just how easy it is to research people. There are a number of different approaches to hot reading as Matt has already hinted at with his questions.

I also suggest that you watch the latest Derren Brown show 'Evening of Wonders', where he performs what appear to be the most incredibly accurate mind readings on various members of the audience.

Now, if Derren can do it using techniques and tricks, so can Sally Morgan.

Thanks for those pearls, Dubious Dick. Soon as I lay my hands on on a full video recording of Sally Morgan live in Stoke I'll be sure to invite you back into the debate. Meantime I'm happy to count you out.

Matt, no, there were no cards you *had* to fill in. You could ask her question and it's obvious you would give out some personal info on them, but not the kind she was coming out with on stage. (People were actually very closed with her. It's like they don't want to give her personal info because they want her to give it to them, if that makes sense.) Credit card info, yes, I suppose. Google, yes, but she told one guy that his wife used to tell him off for blowing his nose on his sleeve. Betcha any money that's not on Google. This was after having told him he'd suffered a nosebleed (he had) and correctly named his dead wife. The only explanation I had was that he had contacted her prior to the show. But then what? She asked him not to reveal that fact during the performance? People don't like being played for a fool and a stooge. Especially not in Stoke.

[Admin]

Not necessarily


Why not?

Are you aware of any psychics who appear on TV and their readings aren't edited?

[Admin]

Hot reading is pretty much the only possibility for some of the stuff she was coming out with, but she would have had to have been in collusion with the subject to know it, it was so personal. And, you kind had to be there, but these were just really normal people. They were dazed and surprised by what she was coming out with; there's no way the emotions were manufactured.

Information can be gathered in many ways. Not only from helpers who mingle and chat with the audience before the show, but things like obtaining people's names and addresses from their seat number, doing background research, friends reunited, local papers' births, deaths and marriages...

Some people are quite star struck by mediums and it's not unknown for people to email the star via their website and let them know that they're coming to such and such a show on a certain date and they hope that old aunt Ethel will come though etc....

Then there's the use of plants or stooges. They may only be there in case the show is bombing but they might be used anyway to make the performer look good and to encourage other people to respond in a similar manner.

Of course, an actor/actress would be pretty useful as a stooge as they could turn on the emotion as required.

The bottom line, however, is that because these shows are not controlled in any way they are not a reliable way of deciding whether someone is real or genuine. There are lots of ways cheating can take place and nothing to prevent it.

These are demonstrations or performances, not tests!

[Matt]

Matt, no, there were no cards you *had* to fill in. You could ask her question and it's obvious you would give out some personal info on them, but not the kind she was coming out with on stage. (People were actually very closed with her. It's like they don't want to give her personal info because they want her to give it to them, if that makes sense.) Credit card info, yes, I suppose. Google, yes, but she told one guy that his wife used to tell him off for blowing his nose on his sleeve.

OK so you didn't *have* to fill in cards but they were there and so information was being given out. Credit card bookings were made, and so details can be garnered from these. Ever seen Dick Tracy or Sam Spade? That's nothign like what a private detective actually does. You give them a name and a fee, twenty minutes later you know the address, credit report, next of kin, blah blah blah. Wanna be a private deteective? Well you can buy that software and a subscritpion to such services for under £100.

So how would I cheat? I'd have accomplises moving through the crowd listening for names. I'd have hidden CCTV follow people to their seats. Through an earpiece the performer would be fed information researched by the back office from electoral register and the like.

So here's the scenario. Stooge is mingling with the crowd and overhears a man saying that he'd like to hear a message from his wife Gwen. Stooge thinks that's an unusual name and good for a hit so discretely radios the back office. See the man by the wiping his nose, he wants to contact his wife Gwen. Back office locates the man makes a note. When the audience take their seats back office find the man again and look up his seat number. His ticket was bought by credit card under the name Rupert Jones. A look at the electoral register sees that his home was occupied by Rupert and Gwen Jones from 2000 to 2003 and thereafter only by Rupert. Score!

The performer comes on and through here earpiece is infomred that there a man thrid row from the back, His name is Rupert his wife, Gwen died 5 years ago (maybe with some details from the obit in the local paper online archives) oh and he wipes his nose on his sleeve urgh!

The performer comes out with these details and rather than making the nose wiping thing about Rupert her job is to make it about Gwen, so what do you think Gwen would say about the nose thing. I don't think it's a great leap to say that she'd hate it. Who wouldn't?

I'm not saying that's what happened only that it could happen and that sort of thing does happen.

http://www.skeptictank.org/popoff2.htm


Betcha any money that's not on Google. This was after having told him he'd suffered a nosebleed (he had) and correctly named his dead wife. The only explanation I had was that he had contacted her prior to the show.

Well now you have another explanation.


But then what? She asked him not to reveal that fact during the performance? People don't like being played for a fool and a stooge. Especially not in Stoke.

Or perhaps he wasn't being played but was still a deliberate stooge. There's another possibility for you.

Did you get a message?

[Cradle Cap]

Information can be gathered in many ways. Not only from helpers who mingle and chat with the audience before the show, but things like obtaining people's names and addresses from their seat number, doing background research, friends reunited, local papers' births, deaths and marriages...

Some people are quite star struck by mediums and it's not unknown for people to email the star via their website and let them know that they're coming to such and such a show on a certain date and they hope that old aunt Ethel will come though etc....

Then there's the use of plants or stooges. They may only be there in case the show is bombing but they might be used anyway to make the performer look good and to encourage other people to respond in a similar manner.

Of course, an actor/actress would be pretty useful as a stooge as they could turn on the emotion as required.


What you've got here are the only explanations. But I can't make them fit with the reality of the situation. Actors? Nah. I think that trick would be exposed pretty quickly and anyway, these people weren't actors. How do I know? You could just tell. Eavesdropping? Well, there were people but they were selling programmes and stuff. It's not like they were loitering. I get what you're saying about research, too, but it wouldn't turn up nose bleeds.

Also, I have trouble with the idea that if a psychic is obtaining his or her info through devious methods that they manage to pull the caper off night after night. It would need so much organisation, not to mention funds and also luck.

[Cradle Cap]

OK so you didn't *have* to fill in cards but they were there and so information was being given out. Credit card bookings were made, and so details can be garnered from these. Ever seen Dick Tracy or Sam Spade? That's nothign like what a private detective actually does. You give them a name and a fee, twenty minutes later you know the address, credit report, next of kin, blah blah blah. Wanna be a private deteective? Well you can buy that software and a subscritpion to such services for under £100.

So how would I cheat? I'd have accomplises moving through the crowd listening for names. I'd have hidden CCTV follow people to their seats. Through an earpiece the performer would be fed information researched by the back office from electoral register and the like.

So here's the scenario. Stooge is mingling with the crowd and overhears a man saying that he'd like to hear a message from his wife Gwen. Stooge thinks that's an unusual name and good for a hit so discretely radios the back office. See the man by the wiping his nose, he wants to contact his wife Gwen. Back office locates the man makes a note. When the audience take their seats back office find the man again and look up his seat number. His ticket was bought by credit card under the name Rupert Jones. A look at the electoral register sees that his home was occupied by Rupert and Gwen Jones from 2000 to 2003 and thereafter only by Rupert. Score!

The performer comes on and through here earpiece is infomred that there a man thrid row from the back, His name is Rupert his wife, Gwen died 5 years ago (maybe with some details from the obit in the local paper online archives) oh and he wipes his nose on his sleeve urgh!

The performer comes out with these details and rather than making the nose wiping thing about Rupert her job is to make it about Gwen, so what do you think Gwen would say about the nose thing. I don't think it's a great leap to say that she'd hate it. Who wouldn't?

I'm not saying that's what happened only that it could happen and that sort of thing does happen.

http://www.skeptictank.org/popoff2.htm



Well now you have another explanation.



Or perhaps he wasn't being played but was still a deliberate stooge. There's another possibility for you.

Did you get a message?

He heh, no! A guy in front of us did, though. He was one of the real blinders. I guess there were two or three that were the humdingers, the rest fairly impressive to middling. I have to say there wasn't a lot of fishing, though.

[Trinoc]

Hot reading is pretty much the only possibility for some of the stuff she was coming out with, but she would have had to have been in collusion with the subject to know it, it was so personal. And, you kind had to be there, but these were just really normal people. They were dazed and surprised by what she was coming out with; there's no way the emotions were manufactured.
I'm doubtful about "really normal people". A shill obviously needs to be able to act like a "really normal person" otherwise they would be no good at the job.

[Admin]

What you've got here are the only explanations. But I can't make them fit with the reality of the situation. Actors? Nah. I think that trick would be exposed pretty quickly and anyway, these people weren't actors. How do I know? You could just tell.

Is there the slightest chance that your perception could be wrong, or is that another Nah?

The point is that no one knows how whatever was done was actually done because there's plenty of room for cheating - cheating can't be ruled out. These performances are not done under test conditions. That is the point.

My actual hunch is that Sally Morgan was not anywhere near as accurate as you're claiming.

[Matt]

Are you psychic?

I ask because you seem very confident in your ability to tell whether an actor is playing a part or they're genuine.

Peter Poppoff couldn't tell when James Randi planted stooges in his audience as part of project Alpha. He even "cured" a man dressed as a woman of uterine cancer. The details are in the link (http://www.skeptictank.org/popoff2.htm) I provided in my last post. If any of the audience members picked up on it they certainly didn't expose the sham. You seemed to think that such a trick would be exposed pretty quickly. That's evidently not true. I've given you real world examples of fraud which are only detected by a great deal of effort or the perpetrator coming clean.

The people mingling with the crowd just look like any other yet you seem to think you would have noticed them.

I have two possible explanations for what appears to be your misplaced confidence. One is the Dunning Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect) people who lack certain skills, often rate themselves highly on those skills: bad drivers think they're good drivers etc. This appears to be partly because if you lack the skill to accomplish a task well, then those same skills would be necessary for you to effectively evaluate competence in that task. It turns out that none of us are very good at detecting frauds; you can see Richard Wiseman's mass-participation experiments (http://www.richardwiseman.com/research/lying.html) for evidence of that. So I'm in no way singling you out as being gulliable. Even the most perceptive people trained in the art of lie detection and armed with the latest technology (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/polygraph.php) are notoriously unreliable. Lacking such ability also affects our ability to self evaluate. This means that unless you really do have preternatural levels of perception and really can tell when people are just playing a part far far better than 99.9&#37; of the human race then you probably don't have the skills to evaluate how good you are at detecting such frauds in everyday life. The only reason I have an inkling of how bad everybody is at this is because of these contrived tests. Yet most of us lacking exposure to such knowledge simply assume that we’re good judges of character even at just first glance.

The other possibility is cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). This is often misrepresented as an inability to change your mind. It is actually the discomfort experienced when your thoughts are at odds with your actions. For example, supporting the away team when you can only get tickets at the home end. If you have to boo the away goal so as to blend in with the crowd whilst secretly applauding your team, you feel uncomfortable. Such discomfort would normally tend to cause you actions to be in accord with your beliefs. If you are acting on your beliefs then any change in your beliefs would not sit well with your actions. As such cognitive dissonance can help to preserve beliefs but only those which you are acting upon.

In your case I acknowledge that you’ve said that you don’t believe in the afterlife, but do believe in *something*. I don't know all the ways you may be acting upon your belief that there is *something* about Sally Morgan or that some form of supernatural exists. I do know that you went to see her show, perhaps even paid for your own ticket. I do know that you’re and speaking up for her on a skeptic forum. I suspect that this may be enough for you to feel compelled not to change your mind on the issue even when you've been presented with evidence that your arguments are not reflected by the known reality of the situation.

Of course being a skeptic I have to have an open mind so I'm willing to be told that you do have such amazing powers but, again being a skeptic, I'd need to see some compelling evidence before I believed it.

You on the other hand have been given compelling evidence that this is how some stage mediums work and that such techniques fool hundreds of thousands of people. It seems to be rather closed minded of you to not accept that and insist instead that such fraud couldn’t have been present at the performance you saw based upon the assumption that you’d have noticed.

[Trinoc]

I'd like to propose a new word - "shilldar", by analogy with "gaydar" - to describe the process by which people believe they can spot a fake, and so insist that the people they see being allegedly read by psychic means are genuine.

(Edit: Just spotted on Google that it's been used ... but I think I have the sense correct.)

[Cradle Cap]

Is there the slightest chance that your perception could be wrong, or is that another Nah?

The point is that no one knows how whatever was done was actually done because there's plenty of room for cheating - cheating can't be ruled out. These performances are not done under test conditions. That is the point.

My actual hunch is that Sally Morgan was not anywhere near as accurate as you're claiming.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as flippant, but if it was done by actors they'd need a different set every night, every one of them a brilliant performer. And wouldn't there have been a whistleblower by now? Same with any kind of stooge or plant?

Tell you what, I really wish I'd gone up to a couple of them after the show to try and suss them out...

[Admin]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as flippant, but if it was done by actors they'd need a different set every night, every one of them a brilliant performer.

Not necessarily. They may only ever use them as an insurance policy against a really bad night.

Anyway, this is just one of the possibilities.

I suspect that almost all the time they simply rely on cold reading techniques as most audiences are there to receive messages and they will act accordingly.

If you really don't believe in psychics (and your responses don't indicate that to me), what do you think is the reason Sally was so accurate (even though that hasn't actually been established)?

If you have an interest here you must have some hypothesis!

[Dubious Dick]

Just seen this and it may be useful to Cradle Cap and any believers who happen to be tuning in here. It is Dawkins interviewing Derren Brown for the Enemies of Reason series. In it Brown talks about the various tricks so called mediums and psychics employ. There is a particularly interesting bit towards the end about the infamous Doris Stokes.

He also mentions another 'medium' currently very well known, who was taught the tricks of the trade by a friend of Browns.

Fascinating that apparently many of the 'star' psychics are from showbiz backgrounds.

Anyway, as I say, worth a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8-UTM&feature=PlayList&p=55A986E56B106611&index=0

[Cradle Cap]

Are you psychic?


Matt, thanks for the post. I'm aware that an illusion is at work (it must be), but what I'm trying to work out is where that illusion occurs. I haven't discounted everything you've said; I'm dissatisfied with the actors theory, that's all. Make yourself the psychic. Where do you get these guys from? How much do you pay them? How do you guarantee their silence? You can't risk using them more than once, maybe twice, in case it blows the gaff, so you need a constant supply, and how do you vet them? And furthermore if I was witnessing actors, I was seeing performers at the very top of their game. Wasted, they are. And hidden CCTV cameras? Who installs them and how much do they charge and how do you guarantee their silence. etc. etc.

John: my hypothesis? In the case of nosebleed guy I think he must have been in contact with her prior to the show and she invited him along. It's not a theory I'm completely happy with: if I was the psychic I'd worry that the guy would pipe up about it mid-reading. But it's the one I'd go with if I had to fit it into a plausible story.

[bindeweede]

Just seen this and it may be useful to Cradle Cap and any believers who happen to be tuning in here. It is Dawkins interviewing Derren Brown for the Enemies of Reason series. In it Brown talks about the various tricks so called mediums and psychics employ. There is a particularly interesting bit towards the end about the infamous Doris Stokes.

He also mentions another 'medium' currently very well known, who was taught the tricks of the trade by a friend of Browns.

Fascinating that apparently many of the 'star' psychics are from showbiz backgrounds.

Anyway, as I say, worth a watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8-UTM&feature=PlayList&p=55A986E56B106611&index=0

DD, thanks for that link - watched all 6 as I'd not seen them before. VERY interesting.

bw

[Trinoc]

It's not a theory I'm completely happy with: if I was the psychic I'd worry that the guy would pipe up about it mid-reading. But it's the one I'd go with if I had to fit it into a plausible story.
It doesn't matter. If anyone blows the whistle they are simply said to be a bitter skeptic who can't see the truth. The believers will go on believing what they want regardless. If they can believe the psychic nonsense to begin with, they will believe anything.

[Matt]

Matt, thanks for the post. I'm aware that an illusion is at work (it must be), but what I'm trying to work out is where that illusion occurs. I haven't discounted everything you've said; I'm dissatisfied with the actors theory, that's all. Make yourself the psychic. Where do you get these guys from? How much do you pay them? How do you guarantee their silence? You can't risk using them more than once, maybe twice, in case it blows the gaff, so you need a constant supply, and how do you vet them? And furthermore if I was witnessing actors, I was seeing performers at the very top of their game. Wasted, they are. And hidden CCTV cameras? Who installs them and how much do they charge and how do you guarantee their silence. etc. etc.

John: my hypothesis? In the case of nosebleed guy I think he must have been in contact with her prior to the show and she invited him along. It's not a theory I'm completely happy with: if I was the psychic I'd worry that the guy would pipe up about it mid-reading. But it's the one I'd go with if I had to fit it into a plausible story.

Really no, I don't see why I should believe you have the ability to tell how good an actor is when they're required to do no more than 5 minutes as a mediums stooge. What are you qualifications in this regard? Are you an acting coach? How much acting have you done? How many stooges have you actually detected from virtue of them not being actors at the very top of their game.

And I can see what you're thinking. What if someone recognised the same peopel from multiple perforances. We so what. If they're at multiple performances then why should someone else be. All they've done is spot another regular, a fan. Why should they be suspicious? But what about the other was round. What if a debunker wanted to plant stooges in a mediums audience? The mediums and their crew will be at every performance. They're in a much better position to spot phonies that they themselves didn't plant.

Did you read the link I posted twice?

Here it is again,

http://www.skeptictank.org/popoff2.htm (http://www.skeptictank.org/popoff2.htm)

Randi planted stooges in Peter Popoff's audience. He didn't use a different set in each performance. Why would he? They weren't proffessional actors, they simply used disguises. Don Hervivk only got spotted after Popoff had healed him of uterine cancer whilst dressed as a woman. Even then the people who spotted Hervick didn't make anything public, they kept it to themsleves. Stooges work, that's a known fact. They're really hard to spot. The reason they work is that people just like you are overconfident in their ability to detect them.

These guys are on the payroll, spilling the beans means they lose their job and won't be able to get similar work again. What's the incentive to spill the beans? It's just not that likely. However it does happen. There a book called the Psychic Mafia (http://astore.amazon.co.uk/ukskeptics-21/detail/1573921610) written by a fraudulent Psychic who blew the whistle on all the scams in play.

So lets sumarize why your uncomfortable with the stooge theory.

a) You think it's dificult to be a convincing stooge.
b) You think people would spot them.
c) You think people having spotted a stooge would make their discovery public.
d) You think there's need to be lots of stooges.
e) You think at least one of them would give the game away.

a) I've demonstrated that simple volunteers with no acting training make effective stooges.
b) I've demonstrated that simple volunteers with no acting training make effective stooges.
c) I question this. Popoff had a reason to keep quiet he dibnd't want to publiscise that he had been tricked. Doens't the same argument apply to members of the public?
d) I've demonstrated that stooges can travel with the show and appear multiple times.
e) With fewer stooges all of whom make thier living through this sort of con whistle blowers are less likely however they can and do happen.

It's a mark of good character to be able to change your mind when confronted with new evidence. Are you prepared to do that?

I'm not asking that you agree that any particular one of the people you saw in Sally Morgan's audience were stooges. I'm not claiming that. All we're claiming is that if there were stooges, it's unlikely anybody would spot them.

Stooges are just one of many cheap tricks in the phonies' arsenal Sally Morgan could have been using any combination of them, or she could really be a medium contacting the dead, or she could be getting her infomration direct from the sitter through telepathy.

I can't discount any one of them. I can't discount cold reading without an accurate record of the performace. I could discount this and other cheap tricks if a medium were prepared to perform under controlled conditions. Only if under those conditions she managed to prove her ability then is it necessary to believe that she has magic powers. I'm sypathetic to the point of view that suggests her reluctance to do so is most simply explained by her being a knowing fraud.

[Cradle Cap]

Matt, thanks again for the long post, and I've definitely read that link. With respect, I don't think you're demonstrating anything, so much as countering my points, which is fine, but it does put me in mind of a challenge: Get yourself hired as a psychic's stooge.

I think your theory that there are full-time members of a travelling psychic's stooge troupe fanciful in the extreme, so I'll bet you a &#163;1,000 you can't get an offer of work in that area.

I prefer the idea that a stooge might be drawn from those who have previously corresponded with a psychic (though you haven't touched upon this yourself). I think there's a massive margin of error for the psychic, but even so, it's the one I personally lean towards, so I'll bet you &#163;100 you can't hired as a one-time stooge.

Easy money?

[Trinoc]

Are we investigating something here, or is it just a contest to score points?

[Cradle Cap]

Are we investigating something here, or is it just a contest to score points?

Well, neither really. A bit of banter? Chat? Light-hearted debate?

[Matt]

Matt, thanks again for the long post, and I've definitely read that link. With respect, I don't think you're demonstrating anything, so much as countering my points, which is fine, but it does put me in mind of a challenge: Get yourself hired as a psychic's stooge.

I think your theory that there are full-time members of a travelling psychic's stooge troupe fanciful in the extreme, so I'll bet you a £1,000 you can't get an offer of work in that area.

I prefer the idea that a stooge might be drawn from those who have previously corresponded with a psychic (though you haven't touched upon this yourself). I think there's a massive margin of error for the psychic, but even so, it's the one I personally lean towards, so I'll bet you £100 you can't hired as a one-time stooge.

Easy money?

Not easy money, you seemed to think there'd need to be a lot of them. I've pointed out that it'd only need to be a select group. Getting into any select group is hard.

I have a few ideas about how I'd go about it. I'd start working as a magicians stooge and then try to gain the trust of a medium who I suspected used such techniques. I would imagine that such stooges are close confidants of the mediums so it'd be a long term project to gain their trust and I'd need to take time off work to do it with, even if I'm right, the distinct possibility that I'd fail. After all my photo and name is right here on a skeptic website.

£100 or £1,000 would unfortunately not be enough to compensate me for doing that.

Perhaps if you could get a lot of other backers I might be interested but I doubt it.

But why?

Why have you moved the goalposts? I haven't claimed that I could become a medium's stooge, merely that from what you've told us they can't be discounted. Isn't it enough that Lamar Keene recorded how he recruited winos to act as stooges secure in the knowledge that what he called true beleiver syndrome, would protect him if ever any of them should speak out.



Another very effective wayu of defusing skepticism was to use "plants"; people hired to attend a service or seance as blatant debunkers.
Sometimes we would have the intruder object verbally tot he proceedings and denounce us as fakes. Sometimes more, subtly we would have them write a billet and then appear toi be reluctant to put it in the basket to be passed up to the medium. We would have him place the billet in his pocket and then of course we, without even touching it, proceeded to read and answer his question clairvoyantly!
Sometimes we were understanding of the stranger's skepticism and forgave him, sending him away humble and contrite. Other times we blasted him for his sacrelege and ordered him out of the church, never to return.
Winos were especially good as stooges, they worked cheap and if, later they had ever decinded to inform on us, who would have believed them?


Isn't it enough that Ian Wilson attended Doris Stokes events and found that the people for which she displayed her most sucesful readings when interviewed revealled that they'd be personally invited by Stokes? Again true beliver syndrome stopped these willing but unaware stooges from speculating that the information Stokes had provided could have been researched from the details in the letters they'd sent her or facts they'd reported during previous meetings.

I mean c'mon the evidence is there that more than counters your points. It shows them to be entirely wrong. Nothing more than argument from incredulity. I've shown that the very things you belive couldn't happen have actually happened. Do I really have to recreate them myself, putting my wife and kid on the breadline to do so before you'll believe it?

[SimonC]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as flippant, but if it was done by actors they'd need a different set every night, every one of them a brilliant performer. And wouldn't there have been a whistleblower by now? Same with any kind of stooge or plant?

Tell you what, I really wish I'd gone up to a couple of them after the show to try and suss them out...

I'm not so sure that a different set of actors would be needed every night. I assume the objection is that the 'regulars' would be spotted and revealed as shills. Surely it wouldn't be terribly difficult for these actors to change their appearance sufficiently, at each performance, to make this unlikely.

They are not going to be personally known to audience members, so all it would take is a pair of glasses, a change of clothing style ( casual one night, formal suit the next ), or other very mundane and easy changes, and the chances of them being recognised would be incredibly slim. Also, as Matt mentioned, if the actor was spotted then they could just be a fan, attending more than one show.

I don't know if the current crop of 'psychics' do use shills, but I certainly don't see that it's at all implausible.

[Dubious Dick]

Cradle Cap.

In addition to all the much more plausible explanations for what you witnessed than that Sally Morgan can actually communicate with dead people, she also has a record of lying about her involvement with Police in helping to solve criminal and missing persons cases (in common with other proven fraudsters in the so called 'psychic' arena).

She has also lied about having famous clients, and there are other examples of where deception has taken place in the recording of TV programmes.

All in all, when you put together the evidence of deception, with probability that she uses hot reading techniques and other fraudulent methods, the conclusion is that she is almost certainly a charlatan. Perhaps one of the better ones, and sort of appealing in that she is not overly glam, and relatively likeable in a non_Sylvia Browne way, but just a performer making extraordinary un-proven claims. She says on some publicity material that she is "science tested". I have tried to track this so called testing down and can find no reference to proper scientific testing anywhere, so just another lie it would seem.

We are never going to be able to state categorically how she achieved the hits you claim to have witnessed when you saw her, so the discussion is likley to be circular from this point on. However, if you are genuinely interested in how she does what she does, and are a genuine sceptic as you claim, perhaps you would like to carry out a thorough investigation at one of her performances. This would include recording it, preferably with video. You would also need to survey those people who apparently receive accurate readings. It would certainly be interesting to see if any were prepared to answer! I am sure we could help you put together an appropriate questionnaire.

[Cradle Cap]

Isn't it enough that Ian Wilson attended Doris Stokes events and found that the people for which she displayed her most sucesful readings when interviewed revealled that they'd be personally invited by Stokes? Again true beliver syndrome stopped these willing but unaware stooges from speculating that the information Stokes had provided could have been researched from the details in the letters they'd sent her or facts they'd reported during previous meetings.

I mean c'mon the evidence is there that more than counters your points. It shows them to be entirely wrong. Nothing more than argument from incredulity. I've shown that the very things you belive couldn't happen have actually happened. Do I really have to recreate them myself, putting my wife and kid on the breadline to do so before you'll believe it?

From what I've seen, this is where the deception lies for me, I must say, and I think if I were going to take up a challenge similar to the one I just set (which was tongue-in-cheek, just in case that needs saying), I'd start by emailing a psychic and taking it from there.

[Croydon Bob]

To broadly agree with the last few posts: I don't think that some of them would need 'shills' in the accepted sense. The big names have fans that do the hard work for them for free. Matt has mentioned Doris Stokes and the fact that she would personally invite followers to attend. Peter Popoff used to tell people information about themselves that they had handed over to his wife or an assistant only an hour earlier. Sylvia Browne has followers who attend her shows over and over again and are delighted everytime she turns her attention to them. They don't ever leap up and say 'I told you that a year ago, you told it back to me last week', they just gasp and nod. This could easily explain the scenario as described without even needing anyone to be paid to misrepresent the truth. Only the less famous would even need to resort to having plants like that.

[Cradle Cap]

Cradle Cap.

In addition to all the much more plausible explanations for what you witnessed than that Sally Morgan can actually communicate with dead people, she also has a record of lying about her involvement with Police in helping to solve criminal and missing persons cases (in common with other proven fraudsters in the so called 'psychic' arena).

She has also lied about having famous clients, and there are other examples of where deception has taken place in the recording of TV programmes.

All in all, when you put together the evidence of deception, with probability that she uses hot reading techniques and other fraudulent methods, the conclusion is that she is almost certainly a charlatan. Perhaps one of the better ones, and sort of appealing in that she is not overly glam, and relatively likeable in a non_Sylvia Browne way, but just a performer making extraordinary un-proven claims. She says on some publicity material that she is "science tested". I have tried to track this so called testing down and can find no reference to proper scientific testing anywhere, so just another lie it would seem.

We are never going to be able to state categorically how she achieved the hits you claim to have witnessed when you saw her, so the discussion is likley to be circular from this point on. However, if you are genuinely interested in how she does what she does, and are a genuine sceptic as you claim, perhaps you would like to carry out a thorough investigation at one of her performances. This would include recording it, preferably with video. You would also need to survey those people who apparently receive accurate readings. It would certainly be interesting to see if any were prepared to answer! I am sure we could help you put together an appropriate questionnaire.

You guys are an interesting lot. You've dealt with the whole spirits thing -- we get that psychics don't talk to dead people -- but then seem to lose interest. What's wrong with unpicking the truth a bit? You can't just say 'they use actors' and expect blank acceptance of that fact.

All I'm saying is, I find the idea that there are paid actors who sit in leisure centres night after night in the pay of fraudulent psychics a wee bit fanciful and that it doesn't sit with my experience. (Note: experience. I'm guessing from some of the reactions that I'm one of the few here who've actually been to a show). Personally, I prefer the idea that there is some element of collusion/research and that it's combined with cold reading and intuition such as we've seen from Derren Brown. Prior to having this discussion I felt that the problem with this approach was that the person having the reading might pipe up about it in the middle of the show. 'Yes, like I told you in my letter,' kind of thing, but I was interested in what Matt was saying about 'Believer Syndrome'.

I'll bow out of this now. God knows why, but I'm clearly getting people's backs up. Thank you for being polite and thank you, Matt, for engaging.

[Admin]

You guys are an interesting lot. You've dealt with the whole spirits thing -- we get that psychics don't talk to dead people -- but then seem to lose interest. What's wrong with unpicking the truth a bit? You can't just say 'they use actors' and expect blank acceptance of that fact.

That's not what people are saying - it's what you are focusing on!

It was mentioned that a stooge in the audience is one possibility for how these self-proclaimed psychics can appear to be accurate.

It is not the answer which is the way that you seem to be reading it.


I'll bow out of this now. God knows why, but I'm clearly getting people's backs up.

It might be because you're not taking notice of what's being said.

[Matt]

You guys are an interesting lot. You've dealt with the whole spirits thing -- we get that psychics don't talk to dead people -- but then seem to lose interest. What's wrong with unpicking the truth a bit? You can't just say 'they use actors' and expect blank acceptance of that fact.

All I'm saying is, I find the idea that there are paid actors who sit in leisure centres night after night in the pay of fraudulent psychics a wee bit fanciful and that it doesn't sit with my experience. (Note: experience. I'm guessing from some of the reactions that I'm one of the few here who've actually been to a show). Personally, I prefer the idea that there is some element of collusion/research and that it's combined with cold reading and intuition such as we've seen from Derren Brown. Prior to having this discussion I felt that the problem with this approach was that the person having the reading might pipe up about it in the middle of the show. 'Yes, like I told you in my letter,' kind of thing, but I was interested in what Matt was saying about 'Believer Syndrome'.

I'll bow out of this now. God knows why, but I'm clearly getting people's backs up. Thank you for being polite and thank you, Matt, for engaging.

You're welcome. I will point out again, that I'm not saying that Sally Morgan uses actors, I'm saying that it's possible, and that no amount of argument from incredulity counters the fact that it's been documented that people have been paid to act as stooges. It's a fact there is a crew of people who travel with the show I've spoken with a nice young lady who identified herself as a memeber of Colin Fry's staff and have witnesses. I've been spoken to by two men who wished us to stop speaking to people in the queue to his show, who wouldn't identify who they worked for. I don't think it's too great a leap to assume that they were capable of a bit of amateur dramatics if they were called upon to do so.

[Trinoc]

Well, neither really. A bit of banter? Chat? Light-hearted debate?
Well, OK ... I just thought that challenging someone to a bet was the forum equivalent of settling an issue with a fight rather than working through the issues.

There doesn't seem to be any disagreement that some trickery was involved, just the question of whether it was done with accomplices or not. I'd be happy to accept it might be possible without accomplices of someone can explain to me how else it could done without resort to the paranormal.

[Mulder]

Also, as Matt mentioned, if the actor was spotted then they could just be a fan, attending more than one show.

That's a very interesting point! I wonder how many fans return repeatedly? And how many are recognised and picked repeatedly by the medium? I doubt such a devoted fan would let on to the audience that they'd been given the same information before. In passing, I've been to psychic demonstrations and found them wholly unconvincing. Perhaps I chose badly ... At the ones I've seen, the audience practically give the medium all the information they need.

[SimonC]

That's a very interesting point! I wonder how many fans return repeatedly? And how many are recognised and picked repeatedly by the medium? I doubt such a devoted fan would let on to the audience that they'd been given the same information before. In passing, I've been to psychic demonstrations and found them wholly unconvincing. Perhaps I chose badly ... At the ones I've seen, the audience practically give the medium all the information they need.

Likewise, the demonstrations that I've been to have been about as far from a convincing demonstration of anything paranormal as one could possibly imagine.

In regard to returning fans; I don't know much about Sally Morgan's following but, having previously been involved in discussions with Derek Acorah fans, he certainly has a large fanbase ( including an online fanclub, where many members discuss which show/s they will be attending ). Many of his fans do follow him on his tours, and I know that there have been incidents in which he has given readings onstage to some of his most enthusiastic supporters.

There was, on one occasion, a particular furore when this came to light. If memory serves, the fan actually felt that this was a step too far, and began to publically question Acorah's credibility. All credit to them for doing so!

[Cradle Cap]

That's a very interesting point! I wonder how many fans return repeatedly? And how many are recognised and picked repeatedly by the medium? I doubt such a devoted fan would let on to the audience that they'd been given the same information before. In passing, I've been to psychic demonstrations and found them wholly unconvincing. Perhaps I chose badly ... At the ones I've seen, the audience practically give the medium all the information they need.

At the one I was at there was very much a sense that the audience wanted to see if Sally Morgan was as good as she appears on TV, and as a result audience members would often play their cards (sometimes frustratingly) close to their chest. So in one example where she described quite a specific way that a dead guy had swung his golf club, the guy in the audience just said, 'That makes sense,' and this happened on a number of occasions where you were left wondering, 'Well? Did she nail it or not?' Whereas had they been opening up you would have thought she was harvesting info from their answers. One thing I would say about the audience, while they were clearly not sceptics, they weren't there to be fooled either. The atmosphere wasn't one of spiritual awe (there was no Goddy stuff at all) it was more like, 'Go on then, impress us.' I never saw the telly programme but she showed clips and you can tell that she looked good, and I guess the audience wanted to see that, only on the stage.

[Cradle Cap]

helping people psychically is not about riches or fame...I'm not sure where you get that idea from



http://www.philleeproductions.org/OnlinePsychicReading.html

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

For a brilliant and current example of how a willing audience is part of the psychic's act, try to catch Derek Acorah's new show in Sky Real Lives (the first episode is on Sky Anytime at the moment).

It's already been established on BadPsychics that a fair proportion of the audience are Derek fans, but one look at the expectant and smiling faces in the crowd is enough to tell you that Acorah is going to do well.

The programme is dreadful to be honest, you'll be lucky to watch more than 5 minutes.

[Dubious Dick]

For a brilliant and current example of how a willing audience is part of the psychic's act, try to catch Derek Acorah's new show in Sky Real Lives (the first episode is on Sky Anytime at the moment).

It's already been established on BadPsychics that a fair proportion of the audience are Derek fans, but one look at the expectant and smiling faces in the crowd is enough to tell you that Acorah is going to do well.

The programme is dreadful to be honest, you'll be lucky to watch more than 5 minutes.

Well there;s a surprise! NOT!

Lucky to watch five minutes? More like I'll be buggered if I watch one. Either that or the telly will get it if I do. If it looks like a prat, walks like a prat, and talks like a prat it bloody well is a prat! Acorah is the epitomy, nay, the very pinnacle of that principle.

[Admin]

Here's an advert for the Trumpet Boy himself Colin :trumpet: Fry.

You can win a free reading with him too.


http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/fry_reading1.jpg

In case anyone missed the small writing at the bottom right, here it is enlarged:

http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/fry_reading2.jpg


I wonder if there will be a correlation between sending in for this offer and receiving 'accurate readings' with details that Colin 'couldn't possibly have known'.

This is an example of how prior research on the audience could be done. I expect that once people have sent the cards off and not won they will soon forget about it and, of course, when the stories about how accurate Trumpet Boy was arise a few months down the line, this nice little offer (and request for personal information along with seat number) will have been forgotten about.

[Trinoc]

Can someone please explain to me the alleged mechanism whereby a psychic is supposed to be able to improve performance by holding hands against the head in strange poses?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Here's an advert for the Trumpet Boy himself Colin :trumpet: Fry.

You can win a free reading with him too.


http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/fry_reading1.jpg

In case anyone missed the small writing at the bottom right, here it is enlarged:

http://www.ukskeptics.com/graphics/fry_reading2.jpg


I wonder if there will be a correlation between sending in for this offer and receiving 'accurate readings' with details that Colin 'couldn't possibly have known'.

This is an example of how prior research on the audience could be done. I expect that once people have sent the cards off and not won they will soon forget about it and, of course, when the stories about how accurate Trumpet Boy was arise a few months down the line, this nice little offer (and request for personal information along with seat number) will have been forgotten about.

Gordon Smith used to do the very same. He had a form on his website which you could fill in with your basic details and why you wanted a reading. One lucky winner a month got a 'free' reading.

He has a slightly different competition on his site at the moment:


Don’t miss out on the chance to win a FREE PRIVATE READING! With Gordon. If you purchase a ticket to Gordon’s Glasgow, Southend or Blackpool mediumship events you will be entered into a draw to win a free reading with Gordon. The draw will take place and a winner announced at the end of each event.

But nevermind, Gordon's researchers/staff will be in contact with the winner to gather a few details before the reading takes place no doubt.

There are a couple of Gordon Smith (promotional) videos which I've transcribed and analysed for BadPsychics. In both videos he is very accurate with the information that is revealed by the sitters to camera before the reading takes place, but comes up with very little additional information. Strange that...::)

http://badpsychics.co.uk/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=784

http://badpsychics.co.uk/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=809

[scarfarmer]

I went to see Sally Morgan last night in a theatre in Swansea and I was so disappointed. I'd read her book and expected something really sensational but instead was treated to a monologue of how first knew she was psychic and photos of the house she lived in as a child. She was far more 'miss' than 'hit' but what really made me laugh and flummoxed her a bit was when she picked a question (or love letter as she call it) from her goldfish bowl from a woman who wanted to know how her horse who died 10 years ago was! And the fella who asked how Elvis was!

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I went to see Sally Morgan last night in a theatre in Swansea and I was so disappointed. I'd read her book and expected something really sensational but instead was treated to a monologue of how first knew she was psychic and photos of the house she lived in as a child. She was far more 'miss' than 'hit' but what really made me laugh and flummoxed her a bit was when she picked a question (or love letter as she call it) from her goldfish bowl from a woman who wanted to know how her horse who died 10 years ago was! And the fella who asked how Elvis was!

That's precisely the feedback I've previously heard on her shows. Her major problem is that she has raised expectations so high with her TV show, that not only are they impossible to meet, she does not appear to have the necessary skills and the ability to get anywhere near.

I'd love to see the production company getting hauled over the coals for what must be some blatent lying and cheating going on in the TV show.

[Dubious Dick]

I went to see Sally Morgan last night in a theatre in Swansea and I was so disappointed. I'd read her book and expected something really sensational but instead was treated to a monologue of how first knew she was psychic and photos of the house she lived in as a child. She was far more 'miss' than 'hit' but what really made me laugh and flummoxed her a bit was when she picked a question (or love letter as she call it) from her goldfish bowl from a woman who wanted to know how her horse who died 10 years ago was! And the fella who asked how Elvis was!

Scarfarmer, Thank you for coming here to let us know about your experience. As per earlier posts in this thread it is rare for someone who goes along to these events to have the courage to own up and be critical. All credit to you. How did you discover us?

Were you hoping for a personal reading? Has your 'faith' in so called mediums/psychics been shaken generally as a result? If you are as disappointed as you sound you can make a complaint to the local Trading Standards along the lines that you feel you were mislead into buying a ticket. It could be a very interesting test case. Survey evidence shows that most people attending these events do want to try to make contact with dead loved ones (even pets apparently), and that many have indeed been influenced by highly misleading TV shows.

Be fascinated to hear what her answers were to the horse and Elvis questions. Of course, in the case of Elvis, anyone can hear him on Steve wright in the aftrenoon every Thursday!

Thanks again, DD

[Cradle Cap]

Scarfarmer, Thank you for coming here to let us know about your experience. As per earlier posts in this thread it is rare for someone who goes along to these events to have the courage to own up and be critical. All credit to you. How did you discover us?

Were you hoping for a personal reading? Has your 'faith' in so called mediums/psychics been shaken generally as a result? If you are as disappointed as you sound you can make a complaint to the local Trading Standards along the lines that you feel you were mislead into buying a ticket. It could be a very interesting test case. Survey evidence shows that most people attending these events do want to try to make contact with dead loved ones (even pets apparently), and that many have indeed been influenced by highly misleading TV shows.

Be fascinated to hear what her answers were to the horse and Elvis questions. Of course, in the case of Elvis, anyone can hear him on Steve wright in the aftrenoon every Thursday!

Thanks again, DD

Funny. You greeted my opening post on this subject by saying you weren't prepared to discuss it without seeing a video recording of the show.

[Dubious Dick]

Funny. You greeted my opening post on this subject by saying you weren't prepared to discuss it without seeing a video recording of the show.

Cradle Cap, my reaction to your posting was down to the fact that you appeared to be discounting all the reasonable explanations that were being put forward, and using your anecdotal recollections as evidence.

I was simply pointing out that unless you could provide better evidence of what occurred it was unlikely that we would be able to give you any better explanations than you had already been given at the time of my post.

It seems that you have accepted that there was some form of deception taking place, which is the highly probable explanation of what you saw.

[Cradle Cap]

Cradle Cap, my reaction to your posting was down to the fact that you appeared to be discounting all the reasonable explanations that were being put forward, and using your anecdotal recollections as evidence.

I was simply pointing out that unless you could provide better evidence of what occurred it was unlikely that we would be able to give you any better explanations than you had already been given at the time of my post.

It seems that you have accepted that there was some form of deception taking place, which is the highly probable explanation of what you saw.

I already had accepted deception was taking place. I sidelined some suggestions on the basis of what I had seen, yes. With Matt's help I whittled the possibilities down to reach what I think is a satisfying answer.

What seems to have irked you is that I'd done a bit of thinking and reading around the matter before I came online to talk about it, and therefore felt able to narrow down the possibilities, the 'reasonable explanations'. My doing that even earned a rebuke from the pontificator in chief. I wonder why? If this was a site about mending hoovers and you were to say, 'It could be a worn fan belt?' and I replied, 'No, I've checked the fan belt,' that wouldn't be adopting an adversarial position, would it? It would simply be providing you with the information you need in order to enter the discussion in a more informed way. You wouldn't reply, 'It must be the fan belt. You're wrong about the fan belt.'

Scarfarmer's hoover is broken, and he or she is afforded a warm welcome.

My hoover is broken and I don't think it's the fan belt that's to blame, my welcome is less warm, is all I'm saying.

[Cradle Cap]

Actually, reading back, my OP was a little ambivalent, in fairness to you, DD.

[Dubious Dick]

Well Cradle Cap, That's very decent of you to say so. You did seem to be looking for answers that no one here could really give based on the fact that your evidence was anecdotal and hence unreliable. Pretty much all the possibilities had been covered prior to my post, hence why it seemed there was no where to go with it without more substantial evidence.

Anyway, Scar Farmers experience seems very interesting as well, and it would be good to hear more from him/her.

[SimonC]

Cradle Cap - given that you feel that some deception was being carried out at the demonstration you attended, what do you regard as the most likely form that the deception took? What would your best guess be, based on your experience?

[Cradle Cap]

Cradle Cap - given that you feel that some deception was being carried out at the demonstration you attended, what do you regard as the most likely form that the deception took? What would your best guess be, based on your experience?

Thanks, DD. And SimonC, thanks for the question and I appreciate the wording. Based on my experience, that there are two or three readings that are tent-pole readings, the rest cold reading. As far as the tent-people readings go, I don't think there is any willing, conscious collusion: no actors, no plot. Instead the tent-pole readings are willing believers who have independently contacted the medium prior to the show. Not every venue will have such a reading which is why some shows appear better than others, but those tent-pole readings are enough to sustain the medium's reputation elsewhere.

[Matt]

Sorry I'm not familiar with the phrase tent-pole reading. Could you elaborate.

[Trinoc]

Sorry I'm not familiar with the phrase tent-pole reading. Could you elaborate.
Does it involve loitering to listen in on conversations?

[Cradle Cap]

Sorry I'm not familiar with the phrase tent-pole reading. Could you elaborate.

A tent-pole. You know, it holds up the rest of the gaff...

[Trinoc]

A tent-pole. You know, it holds up the rest of the gaff...
So, a person who is acting as a shill without realising it (or getting paid)?

[Cradle Cap]

So, a person who is acting as a shill without realising it (or getting paid)?

Just to be clear, the 'tent-pole' bit refers to 'the main event'. It's the one attraction that hold the others up, hence tent-pole, like in a tent. E.g. The X Factor is ITV's Saturday night tent-pole.

However, I do believe the shill doesn't realise it, yes, and is not getting paid.

[Dubious Dick]

A tent-pole. You know, it holds up the rest of the gaff...


Think that should be holding up the rest of the guff.....aw!

[imm0rtalmask]

she could be tested under controlled conditions and then we wouldn't have to worry about things like her having information

[Dubious Dick]

she could be tested under controlled conditions and then we wouldn't have to worry about things like her having information

Testing of so called psychics and mediums is a regular topic of discussion on this august forum. You may like to check out www.randi.org to look at the history of the Million Dollar Challenge which has been available to psychics for some time now.

Derek Ogilvie, the self proclaimed baby mind reader/psychic, did go for testing but failed miserably.

So called psychics and mediums always seem to avoid being tested under properly controlled conditions. There is a common list of excuses as to why they will not put themselves forward. In cases where they do they are usually shown to be no more than cold or hot readers. When they fail they will say things like "The spirits do not like the negative energy that the skeptics bring to the testing process."

You might want to do a bit of reading around past threads to get a feel for this whole minefield of a topic.

[Medium rare]

I try and be as open-minded as possible about the paranormal and psychic world, so I went with my wife and 25 year old daughter to see the famous Sally Morgan roadshow.

The audience was packed with almost 1000 people, which would have raked in at least £10,000 for our Sal. Not bad for a couple of hours work. As we were queueing to go in, Sally's minions were encouraging people to complete so called 'love cards' where you gave details of yourself, the loved one you had lost, and a message for them. These were then placed in a large fish bowl on the stage that Sally occasionally dipped into.

The pre-interval session was the usual inconclusive mix were some 'messages from beyond' seemed quite plausible but others seemed way off the mark. But what happened after the interval convinced me that the whole think is a load of hocum, and dangerous hocum at that!

During the interval my daughter,Vicky, who'd lost her mother to cancer at the age of just six, filled in a card. This card would have been picked up by one of Sally's cronies who would have, no doubt, passed the message on to Sally before she went back on stage. Well… what do you know, the first message coming through was from Sue, my deceased wife appearing very distressed as she was missing her little girl so terribly. Vicky was very upset and was asked to stand up, tears running down her face, while the big screen camera zoomed in on her. What then followed was a series of pap messages that would have applied to any young girl who'd lost her mother: 'your mum misses brushing your hair, your mum hopes you are looking after her rings.' But no message for me, her husband of 20 years, or our son who was devoted to his mother. In fact there was nothing that wasn't either on the card that Vicky had filled in, or glib statements.

Of course the audience was taken in by the whole thing because they were unaware of the card Vicky had completed. I found the whole experience quite degrading and a very crass exploitation of vulnerable peoples’ emotions. If the dead can contact the living then it’s certainly not through people like Sally Morgan.

[Mulder]

Perhaps, Medium-rare, should you ever go again, you could fill out details of a fictitious relative who has passed over on the cards. It would interesting to see if they get in contact!

[Dubious Dick]

Medium rare,

Thank you very much for telling us about your experience. How distressing for you and your daughter.

Just goes to show how these superficially 'nice' people play with emotions. I am currently going through the process of contacting most of the theatres that are on her 2009 tour schedule asking them to reconsider booking such acts in future, and at very least incorporate a prominent and thorough disclaimer. Results are very mixed, but getting some limited success.

Amazing that so many of the theatres are local government owned. I am trying to work on an angle that may get them banned from accepting such bookings in future. Your testimony is potentially valuable in this. Since you have publicly posted may I use it?

You could of course make a complaint to Trading Standards based on yoru experience. When did this happen? It would certainly fit that both you and your daughter could be classed as 'vulnerable' under the terms of the Consumer Protection Regulations 2008, and that your experience suggests that you were mislead. I apprecaite that this may be an effort too far, but you could set an important precedent which would help many others in future avoid falling into the same trap.

I do hope both you and your daughter are getting over this experience and wish you the very best.

[Admin]

Love Cards!!!!!

:muttley:


The ruse couldn't be any more obvious.

[Fortunate51]

Being from a scientific background, liking to analyse facts before jumping to a conclusion, and in my early 50’s – ie. old enough to have developed a fair ‘bullshit’ detector ……young enough hopefully not to be too cynical and senile in my judgement! I always felt it important to keep an open mind on anything
in the fringe fields of discussion on this website. I really enjoyed the Sally Morgan series of programmes, she really came across as a warm, generous-spirited person and although I could see alot of areas in the programmes which could have been faked, where she could have obtained details on her subject before hand- there were other occassions when her subjects were genuinely shocked by the private detail of her personal family readings.(If some of the skeptics had stuck around long enough to analyse all the footage, which any good skeptic would do, maybe they would be a little more open-minded!)
A year ago, a friend of mine, a financial manager(also with a good ‘bullsh-t’ detector) recommended a woman he had seen recently who gave readings (she claimed) from guides in the spirit world. He paid £20 for an hour consultation, and despite being very tight-lipped, came out rather stunned by all the very personal detailed family information this woman ‘allegedly’ got from his mother who had died 6 months previously. .(Pity he didn’t subsequently consult her on the credit crunch-might have saved us all alot of bother.) Advice given at this reading regarding her partner and the subsequent sale of the house all surprisingly panned out as predicted over the next 9months….. guess she just struck lucky
Being a bit skeptical myself, I thought it would be good to test this woman out personally(like a good skeptic should)…..all I had to lose was £20 to learn if it was all a crock of sh-t….. to say I was tight-lipped was an understatement…… she just sat there writing down what she claimed was coming through to her – my father had died a year previously, she described him to a tee, what he was like…. what he had done for a living…… what he had died from. She described my mother(still alive)her character and health situation which was surprisingly accurate….. as though she had her medical record in front of her. She also named my sister and accurately described her character, health issues and marriage difficulties. She analysed my own health history and that really convinced me she was geuinely trawling something up from somewhere pretty insightful – I know you’re all going to groan and come up with some excuse why I was completely deluded by this woman, but I did’nt give her anything to work on and she did’nt know me from Adam when I walked through the door – yet her specific details were pretty mind-blowing to say the least…… you thought Sally Morgan was too good to be true ??….. this woman was just as good ….if not even more impressive ….. maybe I was lucky to bump into what might be the only possible genuine medium on the planet??…. or maybe Sally Morgan and a few others do have some genuine ‘ability’ …… in which case it’s only fair, as a responsible skeptic, to go and check them out personally (you know how private those details are), and decide for yourselves which ones are the ‘real deal’ – if any….. just hope you don’t have to shell out a fortune in your search!
P.S. – No, I don’t have a personal video transcript of the session for you all to analyse!
P.P.S.Nor have I posted here to convince anybody, anything….. just be prepared to research for yourselves.

[DrS]

Thankyou very much for this post! I've only just got back to the forum having been away a while ... it will be great to be in at the start of the entertainment again. ^-^

[Mulder]

Fortunate51 - I'm sure you have something interesting to say but that font you're using is giving me a headache so I haven't read it! Any chance of using something more readable please? Thanks.

[tolman]

What is it with this semi-punctuation by splurges of dots?

Is it meant to actually add something to a post?

Even when someone hasn't chosen a difficult-to-read font, the dot-splurging generally indicates posts that probably aren't worth reading.

[Matt]

Fortunate51 - I'm sure you have something interesting to say but that font you're using is giving me a headache so I haven't read it! Any chance of using something more readable please? Thanks.

Well since I had to copy and paste it into word so I could reformat it beofre readin I will share the fruits of my efforts here.



Being from a scientific background, liking to analyse facts before jumping to a conclusion, and in my early 50’s – ie. old enough to have developed a fair ‘bullshit’ detector ……young enough hopefully not to be too cynical and senile in my judgement! I always felt it important to keep an open mind on anything

in the fringe fields of discussion on this website. I really enjoyed the Sally Morgan series of programmes, she really came across as a warm, generous-spirited person and although I could see a lot of areas in the programmes which could have been faked, where she could have obtained details on her subject before hand- there were other occasions when her subjects were genuinely shocked by the private detail of her personal family readings.(If some of the skeptics had stuck around long enough to analyse all the footage, which any good skeptic would do, maybe they would be a little more open-minded!)

A year ago, a friend of mine, a financial manager (also with a good ‘bullsh-t’ detector) recommended a woman he had seen recently who gave readings (she claimed) from guides in the spirit world. He paid &#163;20 for an hour consultation, and despite being very tight-lipped, came out rather stunned by all the very personal detailed family information this woman ‘allegedly’ got from his mother who had died 6 months previously. .(Pity he didn’t subsequently consult her on the credit crunch-might have saved us all a lot of bother.) Advice given at this reading regarding her partner and the subsequent sale of the house all surprisingly panned out as predicted over the next 9months….. guess she just struck lucky

Being a bit skeptical myself, I thought it would be good to test this woman out personally (like a good skeptic should)…..all I had to lose was &#163;20 to learn if it was all a crock of sh-t….. to say I was tight-lipped was an understatement…… she just sat there writing down what she claimed was coming through to her – my father had died a year previously, she described him to a tee, what he was like…. what he had done for a living…… what he had died from. She described my mother (still alive)her character and health situation which was surprisingly accurate….. as though she had her medical record in front of her. She also named my sister and accurately described her character, health issues and marriage difficulties. She analysed my own health history and that really convinced me she was genuinely trawling something up from somewhere pretty insightful – I know you’re all going to groan and come up with some excuse why I was completely deluded by this woman, but I didn’t give her anything to work on and she didn’t know me from Adam when I walked through the door – yet her specific details were pretty mind-blowing to say the least…… you thought Sally Morgan was too good to be true ??….. this woman was just as good ….if not even more impressive ….. maybe I was lucky to bump into what might be the only possible genuine medium on the planet??…. or maybe Sally Morgan and a few others do have some genuine ‘ability’ …… in which case it’s only fair, as a responsible skeptic, to go and check them out personally(you know how private those details are), and decide for yourselves which ones are the ‘real deal’ – if any….. just hope you don’t have to shell out a fortune in your search!

P.S. – No, I don’t have a personal video transcript of the session for you all to analyse!

P.P.S.Nor have I posted here to convince anybody, anything….. just be prepared to research for yourselves.



My response.

That sounds great fortunate. I'm an open minded skeptic myself. It's good news that you were so tight lipped. It removes one of the many avenues by which a fraudulent psychic may pull some of their tricks. It's a shame that you don't have a transcript. No point then in discussing the Forer Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect). I guess the only thing to do would be for one of us to go ourselves and witness this extraordinary evidence first hand. Where will we find this psychic medium?

[Admin]

I always felt it important to keep an open mind on anything

See: The Open Mind (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php)

I find a lot of people confuse credulity with open mindedness.


I really enjoyed the Sally Morgan series of programmes [.....] (If some of the skeptics had stuck around long enough to analyse all the footage, which any good skeptic would do, maybe they would be a little more open-minded!)

There's that term 'open minded' again (!)

Sorry but no good skeptic would waste their time analysing footage of a scripted and edited TV show and think it proved anything. It's a TV programme that's made for a gullible target audience - it's not a factual documentary!


Being a bit skeptical myself, I thought it would be good to test this woman out personally(like a good skeptic should)

Again, no. 'Trying it for yourself' is exactly how not to test something: it's the quickest way to end up being fooled by something. For example, if you don't know the psychology of how readings work then you'll easily be fooled by it.

This idea that you can test things through personal experience assumes that you cannot be fooled - that's a false assumption because you certainly can.


P.S. – No, I don’t have a personal video transcript of the session for you all to analyse!

Then it's safe to conclude that you're just another person who's been fooled by 'personal experience' because they don't really know how to assess these sort of claims properly.

[Croydon Bob]

old enough to have developed a fair ‘bullshit’ detector

Your bullshit detector seems to have broken. If it is past its warranty then it might be worth buying a new one.

[Trinoc]

These rebuttals would perhaps be more convincing if they addressed the actual experiences the poster reported. Assuming that he's not just inventing the facts to wind us up, then there are several observations that need explanation, either as deception by the medium, misperception by the subject, or of course as genuine psychic powers (no, I don't think it's that either).

My point is that I don't think the standard skeptic response of haughty derision is a lot of use other than for preaching to the converted and alienating the rest.

[tolman]

There does come a point where someone's posting style can remove any interest I might have in what they have written, and it seems fair to point that out.

[Admin]

These rebuttals would perhaps be more convincing if they addressed the actual experiences the poster reported.

They're not worth the effort as most people who post these things are hit and run posters. A lot of these types have a post count of 1.

They post an anecdote that is completely unverifiable in any way and then never come back. It's not worth spending a lot of time on.

[tolman]

Maybe they are for real, and they have found someone with the skill of being able to tell them lots of things they already knew.

Personally, I don't have an overwhelming practical need for such a person and I doubt I ever will, so when it comes to whether they actually exist or not amidst a sea of charlatans, I'm quite happy to leave it up to them to come forward and make the effort to prove themselves.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] I know you’re all going to groan and come up with some excuse why I was completely deluded by this woman, but I did’nt give her anything to work on and she did’nt know me from Adam[...]

Well, I can think of a way in which she might have known a bit about you.


A year ago, a friend of mine, a financial manager(also with a good ‘bullsh-t’ detector) recommended a woman he had seen recently who gave readings (she claimed) from guides in the spirit world.

Psychics often talk up the personal recommendation. Here is a website I picked up after a quick Google:
http://www.articlesbase.com/art-and-entertainment-articles/how-to-find-a-good-psychic-clairvoyant-or-tarot-reader-89117.html

• Recommendation. Personal recommendation is the best as you get it from people you trust.

It doesn't take an extraordinarily suspicious-minded cove to reflect that the personal recommendation is to be avoided, especially from a close friend. The psychic has already had the opportunity to speak to someone who knows a lot about you.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I really enjoyed the Sally Morgan series of programmes, she really came across as a warm, generous-spirited person and although I could see alot of areas in the programmes which could have been faked, where she could have obtained details on her subject before hand- there were other occassions when her subjects were genuinely shocked by the private detail of her personal family readings.

That's television for you. Nothing like reality.

[tolman]

Surely, many people can be genuinely shocked by the accuracy of readings given by people who make it quite clear that they're not psychic?

[Croydon Bob]

These rebuttals would perhaps be more convincing if they addressed the actual experiences the poster reported. Assuming that he's not just inventing the facts to wind us up, then there are several observations that need explanation, either as deception by the medium, misperception by the subject, or of course as genuine psychic powers (no, I don't think it's that either).


You've dismissed the obvious and most likely explanation that the hit'n'run poster is simply lying. Random rubbish posted on an internet forum doesn't need to be explained.

Last night an angel in a flying saucer landed in my back garden and told me that I was the son of god. Explain that! I knew that the Italian earthquake was going to happen because a green aardvark told me. Explain that! I saw Elvis alive and well in Lambeth yesterday. Explain that! You skkkeptics can't explain anything...

[Lord Muck oGentry]

CB, you may be right.

However, if F51 returns he'll have more trouble explaining how he's " skeptical" than why he should be thought truthful.

[Fortunate51]

Thanks for all the feedback on my post(and for sorting my font problem,John).Apologies for late reply but I lost my first response last night trying to post draft,not realising I’d been auto-logged out-so had to rewrite from scratch.Not happy.Newbie error I guess.
.Firstly,this post wasn't a wind-up but an account of a personal experience. It's possible some of the theories you put forward could apply-and my bullsh-t detector could have failed-but when you get so many 'nuggets' of very personal, private info(75% of the reading)-you do begin to think...this is weird.To clarify one point,my financial friend's reading made no mention of me and he didn't give any details about me to her,(our readings were a few months apart)so it's probably safe to discount this explanation.I'm not famous or on Wikepedia and she didn't get the chance to hack into family medical files on the Internet before I walked thru the door because she didn't get my surname or any other details beforehand or after-just my first name.(this doesn't mean the Government might not have leaked my personal data somehow- as seems to be their forte of late-but this is a long shot)
I didn't post these details on the site to 'prove' anything.....just as Sally Morgan's programme will never 'prove' that her 'so-called' psychic ability is real....television has so many illusional elements and editing tricks that it's not a medium(sic) that will convince a hardened skeptic …. Especially some of the ones writing on this forum! My experience was more direct+ personal than a television programme, but I didn’t go in with a full scientific team under laboratory conditions,(would I have got the same result if I had done? All that electronic equipment and extra people in the room might probably effect the accuracy of a reading-just theorising)But cut Cradle Cap and me a bit of slack,we didn’t go into this completely naïve as to the techniques mediums use, we are not infallible either,but some of the theorised explanations that have been put forward by skeptics on this forum have sounded pretty…. er… far-fetched?-but they have been theoretically possible,so I guess they are valid. Before I went for my reading I was very alert for ‘fishing’enquiries and consequently let her do most of the talking- I was polite and affable - but a bit tight-lipped to be honest-the first thing she said when she started was “Do you have a connection with Liverpool?”- I don’t have a Merseyside accent and I wasn’t wearing a Liverpool scarf around my kneck at the time-my only connection with Liverpool was that my father had died there in hospital post-op from a heart attack.(Jeez, just writing this sentence now has hit me with such a strong emotion-guess I’ve been bottling things up a bit)
My reply was just a nod but I thought inside “ Fuck, of all the names she could have plucked out-that was a lucky guess!” She then floundered around a bit at the very beginning saying things that didn’t have much relevance to me at the time(classic fishing technique I hear you say)I nodded a couple of times when she hit something of real significance, just to show her she was getting something relevant(classic feeding I guess)- but then she started to really come out with a stream of stuff right on the nail- one or two bits I thought … not sure about that….. a couple turned out to be relevant later.
If people are interested, and I find the time, I could outline the full transcript of what she came up with indicating which bits had a strong personal connection to me and my family…..this of course will all be purely anecdotal and not prove anything …and probably bore everybody rigid. Maybe it’s best just to mention - approx 75% of the detail given was pretty spot on at the time, of the other 25% - some related to future developments(2 of which are interesting –not sure yet about the other) and the rest of the notes I have’nt made a connection with.

[Fortunate51]

-I guess the only thing to do would be for one of us to go ourselves and witness this extraordinary evidence first hand. Where will we find this psychic medium?
Hi, Matt - will post a reply on this at a future date.

[Matt]

Hi, Matt - will post a reply on this at a future date.

Thanks for coming back. My sympathies for the lost post. I know first hand just how frustrating that can be. If you're not using a shared computer then tick the "remember me" box when you log in. Some others swaer by a quick CTRL-A(Select All) CTRL-C (Copy) to place thier post on the clipboard so that it can be pasted back in if it's lost.

Yes a transcript might be interesting if it's from an audio recording made at the time. If it's from memory save yourself the pain, it will be dismissed. Also if you want help putting the audio recording on the internet, drop me a personal message. I can help with tapes, cds etc.

As for possible research she might have done before your arrival, did you make a booking or just walk in off the street. If you made a booking did you pay by credit card. If you booked over the phone what could caller ID have revealed?

I look forward to receiving the contact details of this medium so that we can see for ourselves.

[Fortunate51]

Hi Matt,Thanks for the tips on saving to clipboard.
Re:Booking - booked by phone from my mates house ... just gave my first name and booked a 1hr slot ..... went along to the centre where she had a room permanently established.... we chatted briefly about what she did ....I said I was interested in issues of my health and my mother's future well-being.....that was it....she sat at her table and paused for a short while and then started to write the notes I have now on her letter-headed notepaper.... when the hour was up, I paid her £20 .... she didn't seem that fixated with money, which was refreshing, seemed more concerned with helping people .... came across as a real nice genuine person .... guess I was lucky she was my first experience with a medium/clairvoyant.

[Matt]

I see, so the transcript is actually notes she wrote at the time. Unfortunately that's less useful.

So what about those contact details so one of us can see for ourselves.

[Admin]

the first thing she said when she started was “Do you have a connection with Liverpool?”- I don’t have a Merseyside accent and I wasn’t wearing a Liverpool scarf around my kneck at the time-my only connection with Liverpool was that my father had died there in hospital post-op from a heart attack.

She asked you a question and then you applied a whole load of meaning to it then thought of it as if it was an amazing psychic insight.

That's a classic example of how the psychology of psychic readings fools people into believing.

It wouldn't surprise me to find that the rest of the reading was along the same lines - they almost always are.

[tolman]

If someone came to me and recommended a medium they were impressed with, I'd wonder when they first started to think I might be worth suggesting the medium to, and whether they were praising the medium to everyone, or particularly to me.

If they'd gone to the medium after a relative died at about the same time I'd lost a relative, I'd at least have to wonder whether they might have thought "You know, old Pete might benefit from coming here.".

If they'd seen the medium some time before, I wouldn't place much faith in their recall about whether they might have mentioned me, unless they somehow knew for a fact that they hadn't even thought of suggesting I visit the person until after they'd left them.

Though I have a generally fairly good memory for useful information, and I would generally pay some attention to whether I've told someone anything confidential, I doubt I'd generally bother even trying to remember telling someone basic uncontentious facts about another person, especially if the conversation hadn't been one in which the other person was interacting much or showing particular interest.

[Fortunate51]

She asked you a question and then you applied a whole load of meaning to it then thought of it as if it was an amazing psychic insight.
Fair comment... but it was what she said next that was more convincing - she claimed to be communicating with a small man who she thought was my Dad,that he had had severe chest pains and was quite strict with me,firm but fair....later on in the reading she mentioned he was a school teacher.I didn't feed her any of this but her description couldn't have been more concise....at one point she communicated advice from him to me regarding my Mum's care situation which was quite specific .... it was then I thought .... I'm having a conversation with my dead Dad through this lady?.....how weird is that?..... strange to say..... it felt quite normal.

[Matt]

How come those most easily convinced by psychics always have father figures suffering from pains in the chest area? It's just spooky.

Wait I'm getting something else.

Who's James?

I'm still waiting for the contact details.

[Fortunate51]

Bit of an odd thing to say to someone who’s father died of a heart attack. Oh well, about the level of comment I expected I suppose, looking back at some of the posts on here. I know charlatans have taken people for a ride over the centuries, so it’s natural alot of people don’t believe there is anyone out there with this sort of ability…. that there is a spirit world etc etc.(not sure I’m entirely convinced either)
Contrary probably to popular belief on this site, this woman does actually exist – my experience over two readings approx. year apart suggested she might have‘something’(no, not my babies) – would love for the whole UK Skeptics Team to trundle over to her place and test this for themselves(the only way anybody will be half convinced I guess) - plug in all their equipment and harass her half to death with their arguments why she should’nt take gullible people for a ride. The reason I’m hesitant to do this is three fold …. 1) It would be a bit heartless of me to subject this lady to some of the hardened skeptics on this site (some of them don’t come across as very ‘nice’ people and if she did a reading I fear nobody would come through for them – well nobody pleasant most likely)…. 2) She was a bit ill last autumn and doesn’t need the stress. 3) She seems to give alot of comfort and advice to people who see her and to interrupt all that to keep you lot happy would be rather pointless.
If you are really serious to find this woman for a reading, Matt, then there are a few clues in all the posts I have made, Start in the Midlands, change 20 to 25(yes,she’s cashing in), good luck, trust you will meet some nice people on the way [One tip: ½ hr before your reading, take a few moments to relax and declutter your mind of irrelevant distractions, write down a few notes on questions you want to ask, issues of health, career etc. + don’t go for a card reading just a general reading where she writes everything down. Ask if you can take notes(pretty sure she will say ‘yes’) This is important …. I found quite a few key things she said in my reading didn’t end up on paper. She tried her best but there were just too many details.Best check when you book whether it’s ok to record with a dictaphone]. … Hope the reading you get is interesting.

[Pebble]

Bit of an odd thing to say to someone who’s father died of a heart attack.


What is odd? Approx 1:4 of the male population die of heart attacks. Further there are around 80 causes of severe chest pain other than heart attack, considering reflux we are now up to 60% of the population that have severe chest pains at some point. Seems pretty good odds to me.

[ZERO]

Bit of an odd thing to say to someone who’s father died of a heart attack. Oh well, about the level of comment I expected I suppose, looking back at some of the posts on here. I know charlatans have taken people for a ride over the centuries, so it’s natural alot of people don’t believe there is anyone out there with this sort of ability…. that there is a spirit world etc etc.(not sure I’m entirely convinced either)
Contrary probably to popular belief on this site, this woman does actually exist – my experience over two readings approx. year apart suggested she might have‘something’(no, not my babies) – would love for the whole UK Skeptics Team to trundle over to her place and test this for themselves(the only way anybody will be half convinced I guess) - plug in all their equipment and harass her half to death with their arguments why she should’nt take gullible people for a ride. The reason I’m hesitant to do this is three fold …. 1) It would be a bit heartless of me to subject this lady to some of the hardened skeptics on this site (some of them don’t come across as very ‘nice’ people and if she did a reading I fear nobody would come through for them – well nobody pleasant most likely)…. 2) She was a bit ill last autumn and doesn’t need the stress. 3) She seems to give alot of comfort and advice to people who see her and to interrupt all that to keep you lot happy would be rather pointless.
If you are really serious to find this woman for a reading, Matt, then there are a few clues in all the posts I have made, Start in the Midlands, change 20 to 25(yes,she’s cashing in), good luck, trust you will meet some nice people on the way [One tip: ½ hr before your reading, take a few moments to relax and declutter your mind of irrelevant distractions, write down a few notes on questions you want to ask, issues of health, career etc. + don’t go for a card reading just a general reading where she writes everything down. Ask if you can take notes(pretty sure she will say ‘yes’) This is important …. I found quite a few key things she said in my reading didn’t end up on paper. She tried her best but there were just too many details.Best check when you book whether it’s ok to record with a dictaphone]. … Hope the reading you get is interesting.
You make out a whole horde of skeptics want to attack your psychic.
Only Matt asked for contact details. You could supply these details via PM and no one else would know.

But you don't want to unveil your psychic. Why?

I think there are two possibilities. You don't want this psychic thoroughly debunked or this person does not exist at all.

Your credibility has plummeted.

[tolman]

1) It would be a bit heartless of me to subject this lady to some of the hardened skeptics on this site (some of them don’t come across as very ‘nice’ people and if she did a reading I fear nobody would come through for them – well nobody pleasant most likely)….
So you're suggesting that only the nasty people in the [alleged] afterlife would come through for skeptics - that none of us would be likely to have any dead relatives who were nice, or who might want to change our minds?

And that from someone who took [real or pretended] personal offence at someone pointing out the classic cold-reading 'pain in the chest area' thing?

Still, it's a very interesting perspective on the afterlife you have.

Given all the spirits who must have real useful information (unsolved crimes, imminent disasters, etc) few of them seem to be able to get their way past alleged dead folks queueing up to spout vaguely comforting platitudinous bollocks, yet you're apparently suggesting that those people who want to talk about nothing special would happily clear the decks if there's a nasty spirit out there who wants to give someone an unpleasant time?

[Fortunate51]

With reference to the reading, she actually wrote down 'heart attack' on the paper but I changed it to 'pains in the chest' for this account - I don't know why .... didn't realise people would focus in on such a small detail and try to make so much capital from it ....avoiding the detail that 75% of the reading was very accurate to me personally.(as I said before-anecdotal evidence that means nothing in the real world)
I realise alot of you are probably warm, generous cuddly people and probably have many similar relatives in the afterlife...but the Internet is a powerful communicative tool and I don't want her to be subjected to those out there who are not so warm, generous and cuddly (politely analytical she probably wouldn't mind).

[Matt]

I don't know why you think this woman would be harrassed. We'd vistit taking precaustions to ensure that we couldn't be identified and researched prior to the reading. In fact exactly what you claimed to do as a skeptic, except that we'd record it, make a transcript and analyse for signs of cold reading.
As you can see I'm nowhere near the Midlands and I have no desire to visit the hundreds of practicing mediums in the wide area there and analyse them all at the risk that even if I did detect clear signs of cold reading for each and every one of them you might still say, no, it was another medium.

If you still think that seeing for myself would convince me please feel free to pass me the contact details assured that I will treat this lady with the utmost respect. I may one day have the opportunity to have a reading.

You claim to have gone there as a skeptic yourself. I don't see how my doing exactly the same would be disrespectful.