UK slave trade apology 'needed'

[Admin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6492291.stm

Here we go again. ::)

Why should anyone living today be held accountable for a practise that ended 200 years ago? :ponder:


The Archbishop of York has called on Britain to make a formal apology for the slave trade.

This is simply an anthropomorphism. "Britain" is not a conscious thing with human characteristics or motivations. The only people who need to apologise for wrongdoing are those who are guilty; and they're no longer around.

Some of our great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfathers would probably have been involved in the slave trade. Should we all assume their guilt and apologise for it?

Should we be asking the Danish prime minister for a formal apology for the rape and pillage done by the Vikings?

Of course not. Guilt is not inherited.

This smacks of magical thinking to me. People living in Britain 200+ years ago acted in a way that we consider repugnant today and therefore, because we live in Britain today, we take on the responsibility for their actions; and as such, must duly apologise for them.

Ridiculous.

[Allo Allo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6492291.stm

Ridiculous.


Quote - Dr Sentamu

“A nation of this quality should have the sense of saying we are very sorry and we have to put the record straight," he said.

He added: "This community was involved in a very terrible trade, Africans were involved in a very terrible trade, the Church was involved in a very terrible trade... it's important that we all own up to what was collectively done."

Well, I thought Tony Blair had clearly said “We are sorry for the slave trade” and I am confused – and always have been – as to what “putting the record straight” ACTUALLY means…? How does one do it? And how often does one have to do it? Do the records fall into disarray so they have to be “put straight” many times – or is once enough? Or maybe more and more records collect up, like dishes in the sink, so that they have to be dealt with on a daily basis? >:(

Seriously, have any African countries apologised for their part in “our” Slave Trade and their own Slave Trades? Maybe they have? Just wondering.

M

[Araneus]

[Blair] went on to describe forced recruitment of child solders, human trafficking and bonded labour as modern forms of slavery.

But not the conscription or "national service" which still takes place all around the world including in many European countries. Unlike forced recruitment of child soldiers, which is evil slavery, the forced recruitment of adult soldiers is completely different and not in the least like slavery.

These self-serving politicians ooze so much hypocrisy I'm suprised they don't slip on it.

[Cuddles]

Yeah, I always hate this sort of thing. And what exactly do they think Britain is anyway? There is a significant percentage of black people living here, are they also supposed to be apologising? Surely their families were the victims, but if they are British citizens then a British apology must include them. What about all the recent immigrants, are they supposed to apologise for what was done before their families even arrived here? When it comes down to it, why should I apologise? My mother's family were poor Welsh people and my father's family are a cross between Irish immigrants and servants.

According to Wikipedia, about 15% of the population are not "White British", and 10% are not even white, so that makes about 10 million people who could not possibly have been involved in the slave trade, except maybe as slaves. Add to that the fact that most of those who actually had families in Britain at the time would not have been able to afford slaves even if they wanted to. Even if you hold us responsible for what happened 200 years ago, if "Britain" apologises it implies that everyone in it apologises, and most of us had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Most importantly, who will really feel better if someone now says sorry for what their great-great-grandparents did to someone else's? I wouldn't bother to argue about it if it really could help people, but how would this happen? Anyone who dwells on the past enough to let past slavery affect their lives really has more problems than a simple apology is ever going to solve.

[Mongrel]

I was born in Canada so I wish to be taken off the list, eh?

[Allo Allo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6492291.stm

Ridiculous.



Seriously, have any African countries apologised for their part in “our” Slave Trade and their own Slave Trades? Maybe they have? Just wondering.

M



Yes – some African Countries HAVE apologised….(but not LOUDLY!)

See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6247523.stm

“As part of a tourism push, members of the Diaspora will be encouraged to buy land and invest. Implicit in the gesture is an apology for the role played by many living in what is now Ghana in selling their fellow Africans into the slave trade. “

http://www.nationnews.com/editorial/343464397589280.php

“Ghana leads the way again in yet another critical area. The government, through its Joseph Project, has issued an official apology on behalf of Africans on the continent to Blacks in the Diaspora for the role that the foreparents of the former played centuries ago in selling their fellow Africans into captivity.”

Interesting thoughts here….

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/articles/000060/006033.htm

And this fun bit!
“Bill Clinton traveled to Uganda in 1998 and apologized for the slave trade.
But his apology was summarily exposed as cheap political pandering when proud Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni felt obliged to explain that if any place in Africa were appropriate for Clinton to make such an apology, it would have been in West Africa, not Uganda. And, moreover, that if an apology for slavery were even warranted, Africans whose ancestors collaborated with the Europeans traders or enslaved their own people all over the continent should be first in line to offer one.”

Others I enjoyed….
http://www.rhodesfamily.org.uk/blog/2007/02/manchester-made.html

Good article here –

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article1554783.ece

??? Figures I have heard many times on TV is that 12 million (equal to holocaust) slaves were transported (by “us” perhaps this includes Holland and Fance?) during the slave trade (Ashanti – Ghana – must have made a tidy fortune selling 12 million – 12 MILLION! people.)

Quote from The Times article (above link) - “Since 1662, British and British colonial ships had purchased some 3,415,000 Africans, of whom 2,964,800 had survived the “Middle Passage” to be sold into slavery in the Americas.”

Mmm – my “gut feeling” says something doesn’t add up? >:(

M

[tkingdoll]

This whole thing makes my blood boil. The consideration of compensation payments!!! I'm a Jew, can I have some holocaust money please?

I don't know anyone who knows anyone who kept a slave. I doubt anyone does. It's patently nonsense to attempt to compensate people today for something outside of living memory, and then some.

I have, sadly, been told by young black people that slavery is to blame for their modern problems. I told the individuals concerned that a victim mentality is bad enough, but a borrowed one is nothing more than a pathetic excuse. I'm with Bill Cosby on this one.

[Araneus]

I'm a scientist, can I have my compensation from the Catholic Church for persecution of scientists in medieval times?

Oh, and I hear some people called the "Romans" once invaded Britain, let's have our payment from the Italian prime minister as compensation.

[vbloke]

I have a friend (who shall remain anonymous, as is his wish) whom I have known for years whose ancestors originally came over to the UK as slaves.

We never mention it, it has honestly never come up in conversation, however, with all this apology stuff all over the media, he has asked me to make a public comment on his behalf.


I was never a slave. You were never a slave owner. There is a very real chance that everyone who is alive today because of the slave trade would not be if it had never happened. Would you like an apology for the fact you are alive? The world does not stand still for your perceived hurt feelings for something that never happened to you, or anyone you know. There are few people alive in the world today whose ancestors did not have some grave injustice perpetrated against them. On behalf of all the peoples of the world, for all the peoples of the world, "I am sorry". There, now can we move on and try and live our lives as if they were our own and not vicariously demand things to which we are not entitled?

[tkingdoll]

Vbloke, that's a great statement and very much sums up how I feel about the issue. I suspect your friend's sentiments are a reflection of the thoughts of most of the country, too.

What annoys me about this issue is that it is difficult to criticise without risking accusations of racism. Many people still cannot divorce 'criticism of a specific individual on issues about skin colour' with 'criticism of that skin colour'.

For the record, I am also vehemently opposed to affirmitive action.

[Araneus]

What annoys me about this issue is that it is difficult to criticise without risking accusations of racism. Many people still cannot divorce 'criticism of a specific individual on issues about skin colour' with 'criticism of that skin colour'.

I hate that as well. There was a discussion about the ups and downs of Indian call-centres, and one of the responses was "It is just racism, end of story" from some bleeding-heart liberal who thinks that "racism" means "any criticism of a person or process that involves people of a different race".

[Cuddles]

I hate that as well. There was a discussion about the ups and downs of Indian call-centres, and one of the responses was "It is just racism, end of story" from some bleeding-heart liberal who thinks that "racism" means "any criticism of a person or process that involves people of a different race".

As Sam Vimes once said, "Just because he's a foreigner doesn't mean he's not an evil-minded little bugger."

It annoys me as well. It's not their fault that I can't understand them and it's not my fault, but the fact that remains that I can't sort out important banking details if I don't know what the person on the other end is saying. It's not racism, it's just common sense.

I have actually found that the most racist people I know are the ones who loudly proclaim that they're less racist than everyone else. I have had a discussion in which someone seriously did support banning "Baa baa black sheep" because it was racist. The thing is, if you think that you are implicitly saying that black people are so different from us that you can't even associate the word "black" with anything else, even though it is fine to say white. I find it the same with feminism. Some people go so far that they end up implying that women really are inferior and need lots of extra help to become equal, which seems just as sexist as just coming straight out and saying it.

[sonofajoiner]

Well we white folks sure don't like to have our priviledge threatened do we?!
I'm somewhat split on the issue. My instant reaction is to get annoyed and take it personally. Then I realise that no one is asking me personally to apologise for anything and I get over it.

But in all honesty, I can understand why some people may feel an apology is necessary. I'm sitting here right now watching a documentary of sorts about the 1915 Armenian genocide and can see how important an apology from Turkey would be to those whose families were decimated. There are those former POWs who year after year demand an apology from the Japanese government for their treatment, and so on and so on. Apologies are often integral in allowing people to feel that important and or traumatic events in their personal, national, or cultural history are acknowledged and that any fallout can be dealt with. I don't think you can argue that the roman's enslavement of britons has led to any real disadvantage for us today so demanding apologies from the Italians would be pretty ridiculous. But we can't pretend that the atlantic slave trade is in no way connected with the prejudice and racism that black communities face today. Before anyone starts yelling, and to be totally clear, I am not suggesting that slavery is responsible for all of it. But it's not that big a stretch to see a link between the notion that african slaves were inferior beings and some of the attitudes held today. Liberal notions promoting the kinds of cultural relativism mentioned by tkingdoll and cuddles is actually a pretty good example of this .

So I think that it's perfectly appropriate to ask that the formal institutions that were responsible for/heavily involved in/benefitted most from the slave trade apologise (Yer know, like the church, the government, even the royal family). However, I don't think asking the white british population as a whole to apologise is appropriate. I'm not entirely sure my mum's side of the family were anywhere near britain during the crucial period. My dad's lot were fishermen and labourers in devon. So at best, only half of me would owe anyone an apology. ;)

[Cuddles]

But in all honesty, I can understand why some people may feel an apology is necessary. I'm sitting here right now watching a documentary of sorts about the 1915 Armenian genocide and can see how important an apology from Turkey would be to those whose families were decimated. There are those former POWs who year after year demand an apology from the Japanese government for their treatment, and so on and so on. Apologies are often integral in allowing people to feel that important and or traumatic events in their personal, national, or cultural history are acknowledged and that any fallout can be dealt with.

But it's not the same thing. There are people still alive now who were around in 1915 to experience events. The former POWs actually are the ones who were wronged. The people who did things to them are still alive in some cases. I have no problem at all with apologies and compensation for people who genuinely had things done to them. But there is no-one alive today who can even remember anyone involved with the slave trade being alive. yes, the slave trade affected our society. So what? So did lots of other things, some longer ago, some more recent, but no-one is suggesting that everyone responsible for everything that has ever happened should apologise. you say that we are not personally being asked to apologise, but that is not true. Britain is the people living there. If Britain apologises then it implies that we are all guilty, when the truth is that no-one is guilty.


I don't think you can argue that the roman's enslavement of britons has led to any real disadvantage for us today so demanding apologies from the Italians would be pretty ridiculous.

I don't see it as any more ridiculous than what is being proposed. Of course the Romans led to people being disadvantaged today. There are all kinds of inequalities in wealth and health and various things across Britain. These are all consequences of what has been done in the past, whether by invading forces or by our own society. You can't expect everyone to apologise for every one of these inequalities, so you shouldn't expect an apology for one specific inequality, especially since there is no proof that the thing being apologised for is actually the cause.


But we can't pretend that the atlantic slave trade is in no way connected with the prejudice and racism that black communities face today. Before anyone starts yelling, and to be totally clear, I am not suggesting that slavery is responsible for all of it. But it's not that big a stretch to see a link between the notion that african slaves were inferior beings and some of the attitudes held today. Liberal notions promoting the kinds of cultural relativism mentioned by tkingdoll and cuddles is actually a pretty good example of this.

We don't need to pretend anything. Do you actually have any evidence that the slave trade caused those attitudes? It seems far more likely that it was the other way around. People enslaved blacks because they thought they were inferior, they didn't suddenly decide they were inferior because they were slaves.


So I think that it's perfectly appropriate to ask that the formal institutions that were responsible for/heavily involved in/benefitted most from the slave trade apologise (Yer know, like the church, the government, even the royal family). However, I don't think asking the white british population as a whole to apologise is appropriate. I'm not entirely sure my mum's side of the family were anywhere near britain during the crucial period. My dad's lot were fishermen and labourers in devon. So at best, only half of me would owe anyone an apology. ;)

But the whole point of the govenment is that it represents the people. If the government does anything, including apologising, it is doing so on behalf of everyone in the country. I have done nothing to apologise for, so I do not want the government to apologise on my behalf.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Tricky one, this. I suspect that there are different things that can be meant by apology.

In the standard case, the apology is offered by a person for his own misdeeds. It is just inept to try to apologize for another's misdeeds ( leaving aside cases such as the parent with a fractious toddler).

However, there is another, fairly common, case. That is where a person with suitable authority apologizes on behalf of an impersonal agency such as a government department or a commercial company. Mr Bigbucks, MD of Widgets PLC, is well placed to apologize to Mrs McGubligan on behalf of the company for botching the repair of her widget and then charging her twice for it. And he is still well placed to apologize even if the mischief was done before he joined the company and by officers who have since left.

In principle, the second type of apology need not be inept here. But there could be no suggestion of personal apology: no contrition or remorse, since these belong only to persons.

I am not sure whether this gets to the heart of the matter, but I guess that much of the heat in the public debate about this comes from confusing the two cases.

One last thought: some people may be hunting for an apology when they would be better served, and possibly better satisfied, by an expression of shame. Anyone who proclaims himself generally proud to be British can reasonably say " But the thought of British participation in the institution of slavery makes me ashamed."

[Araneus]

Well we white folks sure don't like to have our priviledge threatened do we?!

I am not "threatened" by anything, neither do I consider myself particularly "privileged". It is unfortunate that racist attitudes exist, but I am not responsible for them and have no obligation to feel personally ashamed or apologetic for the behaviour of a minority of small-minded bigots just because they share my skin colour.

Cuddles has addressed your other points pretty comprehensively; in particular your assertion that racist attitudes are self-evidently a result of the slave trade is a textbook example of the Cum Hoc fallacy.