Homeopathic hospitals: value for money?

[Admin]

I'm having a quick look into the cost of our homeopathic hospitals.

According to this Keep taking the Arsenic (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2005/11/25/hhomeo25.xml):


Last year, there were 44,887 new or follow-up appointments at Britain's five homoeopathic hospitals, in Bristol, London, Glasgow, Tunbridge Wells and Liverpool.
NOTE: that's new and follow-up appointments so the actual number of patients treated will be less than that - possibly a lot less.

For simplicity, I'll deal with appointments only and assume that the patients are shared equally between the 5 hospitals. Each hospital will have 8977 appointments each per year (173 per week).

Now according to David Colquhoun, a reasonable estimate of the cost to the taxpayer of the London Homeopathic Hospital is £4.7million a year: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html#rlhh1

Now, £4,700,000/8977 = £523 per appointment.

Obviously that's a rough estimate but it's likely to be reasonably close to the truth.

Value for money? I think not.

As they've used a figure that includes appointments rather than patient numbers it means that if a patient has a consultation and several follow-up appointments then the cost per patient will rocket. It's probably costing thousands of pounds to treat each patient - treat them with sugar pills that is.

Has anyone else looked into this?

[Mojo]

Well, there are a few questions to ask here. Are these "homoeopathic hospitals" doing nothing but consultations and handing out sugar pills, or do they provide more "orthodox" treatment with homoeopathy as a sort of adjunct? Do they have inpatients, with the additional costs that entails? How much does a proper hospital cost per consultation? And how much is spent on all 5 "homoeopathic hospitals" in total?

As far as the last two of those are concerned, I think I'll look into making a "freedom of information" application. The others may be more difficult to ask about.

[Mojo]

Value for money? As far as that goes, unless it actually works it's a complete waste of money.

[Admin]

I'm not sure Mojo. I think that the RLHH does provide some services other than homeopathy but I'm not sure what they are and what percentage of expenditure they take.

It will be interesting to find out.


As far as that goes, unless it actually works it's a complete waste of money.

That's my concern. If we're spending millions on treating people with homeopathy then I consider that a complete waste of resources.

[Mojo]

If we're spending millions on treating people with homeopathy then I consider that a complete waste of resources.

Never mind millions.

If we're spending anything at all on something that doesn't work it's a waste of resources!

The problem is that the powers that be don't seem to see it like this. They are likely to simply look at how much it costs per patient, and not worry about whether the treatment offered is effective.

Hence, for example, the focus of the Smallwood report on "cost-effectiveness".

[Blue Bubble]

Just to bump this thread.

It's absolutely outrageous that homeopathic hospitals should continue to get NHS funding at the same time that wards are closing, nurses are being layed off etc.

We should really try to raise this topic to get a nationwide discussion, and hopefully the decision to withdraw any taxpayers' money from these places. Somehow I feel that a letter to my local MP would achieve nothing (Sir Alan Haselhurst (Con.), Saffron Walden).

Any suggestion to get something rolling ?

[vbloke]

*cough*
http://badhomeopath.com

[tkingdoll]

Does anyone know what influence HRH Prince Charleswoo has historically had on the opening/continued NHS funding of these hospitals?

I know he's been leaning on the PM recently to get CAM funded by the NHS generally, and he came up with that wacky biased research paper to support his argument, but I don't know if he has had any influence on the hospitals.

Cause, y'know, five is a lot. An awful lot.

[Aardvark]

Let me see I have understood this?

The NHS funds Homeopathic Hospitals

My 5 local Marie Currie and MacMillan Palliative care centres together with the Yorkshire Air Ambulance are all funded by charitable donations

ooooooooooookay???????????

How does a middle aged Tyke get entry status to New Zealand

[Admin]

Let me see I have understood this?

The NHS funds Homeopathic Hospitals

Yes, I think a large part of the running costs etc. are funded by the taxpayer. I believe the actual homeopathic treatments (prescriptions?) are paid by the patients.

I don't know all the ins and outs as yet - this is a topic I want to tackle this year though.

[Admin]

Well I haven't really tackled this issue yet but I did start looking at the 5 homeopathic hospitals we have in the UK.

The first thing of note is that they are all relics from the pre-scientific past. Most were founded in the mid 19th century.

The second is they are not exactly large establishments. The Liverpool homeopathic hospital, for example, seems to be a small department located within a larger NHS hospital.

The image that homeopaths and credophile reporters like to give is that we have 5 NHS homeopathic hospitals in the UK, but in reality they are not what we think of a hospital being. Certainly the smaller ones are more like homeopathic departments.

It will be interesting to just how small they actually are if I can get figures.

[tkingdoll]

The one in London is pretty large if memory serves - it's certainly housed within a large building, anyway, but I don't know if that entire building is given over to it or just part.

[Admin]

I think the London one has 8 consultants so even that one is not particularly big for a 'hospital'.

I think I read that one of the others (probably the Liverpool one) is run by one single consultant.

When I have time, I'm going to look into just how small these 'hospitals' really are.

[Jack 007]

IIRC, the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital" has just had a £20M refurb, and it's just down the road from Great Ormond Street too. >:(

[Admin]

From memory the refurbishment was in 2001 and although £20,000,000 was spent only £18-19,000,000 was taxpayers' money. ::)

Prof David Colquhoun estimates that the RLHH costs the taxpayer around £4,700,000 per year in running costs.

Here's a link: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack.html#rlhh2

A drop in the ocean in the NHS budget but if that money were redirected into the children's hospital down the road, I know I'd be happier knowing my tax money was going there rather than into treating people with sugar pills. >:(

[Cuddles]

The NHS funds homeopathy? I didn't know that, but it is really quite disturbing.

[Admin]

Yes, taxpayers' money goes into funding homeopathy! :o

Homeopathy supporters love to state that we have "5 homeopathic hospitals in the UK" (as if it validates homeopathy) but as I'm finding out they're nothing like fully functioning hospitals at all.

They don't have A+E (for obvious reasons) and all they treat is out patients. I think the Glasgow 'hospital' treat in-patients but they had their funding cut a while back so that may no longer be the case.

[Cuddles]

I used to comfort myself with the fact that I didn't pay taxes. But then I got a job :(

[Jack 007]

They don't have A+E (for obvious reasons)
Homeopathic A&E, now that's a thought! ;D

Quick, drink this pint of water, you'll be right as rain in no time <beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....> oh, sh...
;D

[Mongrel]

Homeopathic A&E, now that's a thought! ;D

Quick, drink this pint of water, you'll be right as rain in no time <beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....> oh, sh...
;D


But that's just the "healing crisis", it's all part of process O0

[Admin]

But that's just the "healing crisis", it's all part of process O0


Too true.

One thing that is guaranteed. If the homeopathic intervention hasn't worked, they'll have an excuse for it.

[vbloke]

it's what they call an "aggravation"

[Blue Wode]

I think the Glasgow 'hospital' treat in-patients but they had their funding cut a while back so that may no longer be the case.


Unfortunately, it escaped the cutbacks
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4552289.stm

which means that it continues to be a 15-bed palace of pampering
http://ghh.info/tour2.html (virtual tour)

that costs the taxpayer £900,000 a year:
http://news.scotsman.com/health.cfm?id=1387592006

At least we can get rid of some of our irritation by signing the Sense About Science statement of objection on the new regulations on homeopathic remedies (which I see Asthmatic Camel has posted on another thread here):

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/86

[Jocky]

Thanks for that Blue Wode O0 I've signed up to the statement as an individual.

John - could UKS sign up as an organisation?

[Admin]

Three-hundred-and-fifty patients a year are admitted to the Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital

£900,000 a year to treat 350 patients with sugar pills. :-\

That's £2,571 per person. :o

The figure for Tunbridge Wells came out at £160 per person but as that was a figure they could save directly I suspect that it doesn't include the staff wages, admin costs etc. which would greatly increase that figure.

We really do need to see these places in context. Many working people pay around £2,500 a year in income tax. It's a sobering thought that a person's yearly income tax can be used up in treating one patient in that homeopathy ward.

What a scandalous waste. >:(

[Admin]

John - could UKS sign up as an organisation?


We could but I don't know anything about it. It seems there's a 'master plan' behind it but no-one has contacted me about it so I'll leave it for now.

[Jocky]

OK.

BTW, have you seen:


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1940664#post1940664

[Blue Wode]

The NHS funds homeopathy? I didn't know that, but it is really quite disturbing.


And according to James McLay, a clinical pharmacologist who co-authored a study on ‘Homeopathic and herbal prescribing in general practice in Scotland’ which is published in this month’s issue of the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology (Ross S, Simpson C R and McLay J S. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology. Volume 62.6. Pages 647 to 652), there are a disproportionate number of doctors in Scotland who have done homeopathic courses at the Royal Homeopathic Hospital in Glasgow.

He made some very revealing comments on the trend in today’s Herald:



"One of the reasons for doing that is that in general practice continuous medical education is rewarded by an increase in payments," said Dr McLay. "You can get your whole year of continuous medical education payments by attending that course. That is a bit cynical but it is the truth."

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/75804.html


So it shouldn’t be too long until we hear homeopaths claiming that homeopathy “must work” because GPs are clamouring to do the course at the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital.

[Admin]

Another quote I noticed:


He said many doctors had told him they use homeopathic remedies as placebos in children to pacify the parents.

That should be a big no no.

They also refer malingerers to homeopaths and write the acronym TEETH (Tried Everything Else Try Homeopathy) on the patient's notes.

I guess when you're stressed and busy it is just too tempting to brush people off with a homeopathic remedy or referral. They shouldn't do it though.