Christopher Hansard - Tibetan Bon Medicine

[Physiotherapist]

I posted something over at JREF sometime ago now regarding this guy.

He is from NZ originally and claims to be a Tibetan Bon Dur physician. He is the author of many books and has practiced from the Eden Medical Centre in London since 1990, when he came over here to set up in practice.

He had quite a few websites, which have not been dismantled and I was wondering what had happened to him. I have subsequently found that Eden Medical Centre has gone bust and some journalists/media are out to get him and uncover him as a fraud and a liar who has been preying on the sick and helpless for years.

I suppose this has to be a result if one more fraud is off the streets.

[apprentice]

There is an elucidating discussion on Christopher Hansard at:

http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?p=27717&sid=a62620726372685be3850d2f7acf49ab - 64k

You may need to be patient as the Rick Ross website is often unavailable.

Another very interesting challenge to Christopher Hansard's fraud is at:

http://christopherhansard.blogspot.com/2007/02/question-of-integrity.html

[Pema]

Hooray for Google Alerts! Mine directed me to this forum. I initiated the debate on Rick Ross and was astonished when it attracted so much attention. It now runs to 14 pages -- and yes it is sometimes difficult to access www.rickross.com I strongly urge participants here to check out the Christopher Hansard thread on Rick Ross. To replicate it here would take hours, and be very long winded. In essence, there is overwhemling evidence to support the view that CH is a charlatan who has cynically exploited his superficial knowledge of the Tibetan Bon tradition. There is also evidence of sexual, psychological and emotional abuse, alongside a breathtaking panorama of lies and deception. In fairness, I should point out that many posters defend CH. There is also a suspicion that the man himself contributed to the thread in at least one instance.

[apprentice]

If you or anyone you know has been abused in any way by Christopher Hansard please go to 'Witness against abuse'.

http://www.witnessagainstabuse.org.uk/

You can email them or call the helpline on 08454 500 300.

Please also visit: http://www.gopetition.com/online/12899.html

[naina]

I had relationship with Christopher Hansard in 1985 for 3 years.
CH is a liar and a manipulator! I can tell you stories about CH!
At the moment CH has a web site asking people to sign a petition, to save him;D What a joke!

[Altichiero]

Naina,

Would you consider posting information regarding Chris on the Rick Ross website?

So far, I am the only person who knew Chris in New Zealand to post any information on the Rick Ross message board. If more that one person states that he never mentioned an ‘Urgen Nam Chuk’ or ‘dur bon’, for example, I feel it will help convince people that his claims regarding his background and training are a complete fabrication.

[Pema]

Naina,
Please will you post an item on the Christopher Hansard thread at www.rickross.com (http://www.rickross.com) ? I would like to communicate with you privately. If you are on rickross I can send you a private message. Best wishes Pema

[davron]

I have been poking around this site for sometime but have only just decide to join and post.


I decided to start posting after I saw a reference to Jeff Bowe, my how times change. When I first came across Mr Bowe he was in the land of the fairies writing articles and a really serious flying saucer nut. He was a firm supporter of 'aliens ate my dog' and 'George Bush is really a fish' category of journalism. So it came as some surprise to find that he had read reinvented himself as the defender of all things true and Tibetan.

I had never heard of this Christopher Hansard chap before and reading the Rick Ross postings about him he is either viewed as a saint or Satan or something in between. Most definitely the guy is a creepy character who needs large amounts of therapy and in all probability locking up.

I viewed Rick Ross from a different viewpoint to the other people I suppose, as I am not immediately involved but what did strike me was the arguments used by Jeff Bowe. The arguments used by both sides have holes so big in them that you could drive a truck through them. At one point Mr Flying Saucer directs all the readers to look at conclusive evidence that Hansard is a charlatan by comparing two piles of wood, yes I kid you not, two piles of wood turned into pyramids for a bonfire. Key point being that as Hansard is building a pyramid of wood for a bonfire it is obviously the copy of something from an earlier book. This in his mind conclusively proves that Hansard is a charlatan. I don't know if Mr Bowe noticed that the earlier construction was built so that it had the Indian peace symbol constructed into the pile i.e. the swastika. Hansards had no such embellishment or sophistication, in fact it looked exactly like a pyramid of wood that any child would make in their back garden given a saw and a few logs. I have made similar things while sitting in a bar using cocktail sticks (hey I am Guru send me money now!). ^-^

Hansards claim is that his medical system is earlier than the present Tibetan system and produces a scholar of Tibetan origin to prove this. Bowe claims that this is not true and produces a scholar to prove this. Hansards supporters appeared to be some dodgy people who Bowe cannot locate, which is not surprising as Bowe vilifies and humiliates anyone who has had anything to do with Hansard. This includes the victims of supposed malpractice, I use the term supposed because in English law we are innocent until proven guilty, it is not surprising that people will not come forward when Jeff Bowe immediately places their names on his blogspot.

My entire take on this thing is that I would like to lock up Christopher Hansard and Jeff bowe in a room for eternity and put it on live WebCam I am sure it would make great if not interesting violent and viewing.

So in the end who are we to believe is it
' aliens ate my dog and used his DNA to create George Bush' :cheesy:
or
'I am the reincarnation of the great pizza delivery being'>:D

I think they deserve they each other. To my mind Mr Bowe's motives are not entirely honest. On the other hand neither do Hansards motives appear to be honest either. The arguments boil down to...we have the man who reinvented himself from being a flying saucer freak into the guardian of all things Tibetan , arguing with a man who invented himself as a Tibetan physician.


"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."
--From Hamlet (I, iv, 90)

[apprentice]

Anyone else who doesn’t know Christopher Hansard might like to start here:

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,25113,page=1

I would recommend Hansard’s own websites but for some reason he seems to be removing more and more pages from them.

You can check out Jeffrey and judge for yourself here:

http://christopherhansard.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html

I did google Jeffrey but couldn’t find anything weird. How weird. :cheesy:

[Mongrel]

I would recommend Hansard’s own websites but for some reason he seems to be removing more and more pages from them.


HAve you checked the Wayback machine (http://www.archive.org/index.php) and Google archives?

[mahakala]

The question of why Jeffrey Bowe cares so much as to create a whole blog, complete with graphics, devoted to raking Hansard over the coals remains a mystery and sets off red flags for me.

The other question, which still remains unanswered apparently, is this: if Hansard didn't learn from some mysterious Tibetan down under where did he learn what he teaches, writes about and utilized in his practice. The only answer given on the RR forum is that he could pick up that stuff anywhere.

Where's anywhere?

[ZERO]

The question of why Jeffrey Bowe cares so much as to create a whole blog, complete with graphics, devoted to raking Hansard over the coals remains a mystery and sets off red flags for me.

The other question, which still remains unanswered apparently, is this: if Hansard didn't learn from some mysterious Tibetan down under where did he learn what he teaches, writes about and utilized in his practice. The only answer given on the RR forum is that he could pick up that stuff anywhere.

Where's anywhere?

Do you think he could of made a lot of it up so as to make money off people who are ready to believe anything?
Is that a possibility?

[bobdezon]

The question of why Jeffrey Bowe cares so much as to create a whole blog, complete with graphics, devoted to raking Hansard over the coals remains a mystery and sets off red flags for me.

The other question, which still remains unanswered apparently, is this: if Hansard didn't learn from some mysterious Tibetan down under where did he learn what he teaches, writes about and utilized in his practice. The only answer given on the RR forum is that he could pick up that stuff anywhere.

Where's anywhere?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_%28science%29

Apply it to your life, it is a wonderdrug of the Id.

[mahakala]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_%28science%29

Apply it to your life, it is a wonderdrug of the Id.

Could you be a wee bit more explicit in respect to what you mean?

[bobdezon]

Could you be a wee bit more explicit in respect to what you mean?

You posted this


The other question, which still remains unanswered apparently, is this: if Hansard didn't learn from some mysterious Tibetan down under where did he learn what he teaches, writes about and utilized in his practice. The only answer given on the RR forum is that he could pick up that stuff anywhere.

Where's anywhere?

Surely you are not that unobjective that you cannot formulate the opinion he quite possibly "made it up as he went along"? You appear to be implying that this person absolutely must have knowlege beyond the ken of mortal man for him to do the things he does.

[mahakala]

You posted this



Surely you are not that unobjective that you cannot formulate the opinion he quite possibly "made it up as he went along"? You appear to be implying that this person absolutely must have knowlege beyond the ken of mortal man for him to do the things he does.

Made it up as he went along is quite different than gathered it together as he went along. The former suggests imagination; the latter suggests research.

Or are you too unfamiliar with the body of Hansard's work to weigh in on that?

[bobdezon]

Surely you are aware that his alleged method/skill is unrecognised by the actual Bonpos themselves? Far from it being traditional Bon medicine as he claims the actual Bon practitioners have never heard of it. This should be your first clue as to how exact and precisely truthful he is.

This man has invented a history for himself to convince gullible people he is some sort of healer based on the old overused "knowlege of the ancients" (ou remember those? they had no antibiotics etc), consequently desperately Ill people convinced of his self publicised ability flock to see him and be treated. Much mumbo jumbo later and several payments to his own private bank will attest to his reasons for doing so. The man is a charletan and I daresay conman that specialises in fleecing the terminally ill for personal gain.

[mahakala]

Surely you are aware that his alleged method/skill is unrecognised by the actual Bonpos themselves? Far from it being traditional Bon medicine as he claims the actual Bon practitioners have never heard of it. This should be your first clue as to how exact and precisely truthful he is.

This man has invented a history for himself to convince gullible people he is some sort of healer based on the old overused "knowlege of the ancients" (ou remember those? they had no antibiotics etc), consequently desperately Ill people convinced of his self publicised ability flock to see him and be treated. Much mumbo jumbo later and several payments to his own private bank will attest to his reasons for doing so. The man is a charletan and I daresay conman that specialises in fleecing the terminally ill for personal gain.

And, in the name of objectivity, you have gathered your information about Hansard's activities from which source?

[bobdezon]

From several sources as any sceptical person should, so there is no bias. I have read his website, and a statement from a Dr Barry Clarke. To be a practitioner of Bon one must be able to read and write tibetan (it is a requirement for tutelage) Christopher Hansard cannot speak nor read tibetan.

He purposely plagerised a poem by one Oriah Mountaindreamer which he then included as a bon invokation in his book. He was forced by Harper Collins (her publisher) to apologise.

The office of the dalai lama himself does not recognise Christopher Hansards work and casts doubt over him even being a practitioner of bon.

The ancient tibetan master he claimed to have been taught by just happened to be in new zealand and speak perfect english to teach him, yet he knows no tibetan.

There are plenty of online sources discussing this person, and probably many more physical discourses in libraries everywhere.

[mahakala]

From several sources as any sceptical person should, so there is no bias. I have read his website, and a statement from a Dr Barry Clarke. To be a practitioner of Bon one must be able to read and write tibetan (it is a requirement for tutelage) Christopher Hansard cannot speak nor read tibetan.

He purposely plagerised a poem by one Oriah Mountaindreamer which he then included as a bon invokation in his book. He was forced by Harper Collins (her publisher) to apologise.

The office of the dalai lama himself does not recognise Christopher Hansards work and casts doubt over him even being a practitioner of bon.

The ancient tibetan master he claimed to have been taught by just happened to be in new zealand and speak perfect english to teach him, yet he knows no tibetan.

There are plenty of online sources discussing this person, and probably many more physical discourses in libraries everywhere.

I see that your source of information is Rick Ross and Jeff Bowe. Nuff said.

[bobdezon]

Those are but two sources of information, there are others like the JREF forums and Christopher Hansards own website etc. I looked at many sources of information, including less than favourable book reviews. I see that you are instantly dismissing my findings based soley on your inability to accept this man is capable of fraud.

It would appear you have an agenda. Would you be Christopher himself alerted by Google alerts to this forum thread like pema was? Perhaps you are an associate or student. Regardless of your loyalty you cannot seriously dispute the evidence supplied, that is unless you know something I dont.

You may choose to believe this person is innocent, that is your perogative, but as I stated earlier perhaps you could use a lesson in objectivity? It would certainly appear to be the case.

You have added nothing to the debate except doubt on all who critique Christopher Hansard, and his blatantly obvious manipulation of the truth.

[mahakala]

Those are but two sources of information, there are others like the JREF forums and Christopher Hansards own website etc. I looked at many sources of information, including less than favourable book reviews. I see that you are instantly dismissing my findings based soley on your inability to accept this man is capable of fraud.

It would appear you have an agenda. Would you be Christopher himself alerted by Google alerts to this forum thread like pema was? Perhaps you are an associate or student. Regardless of your loyalty you cannot seriously dispute the evidence supplied, that is unless you know something I dont.

You may choose to believe this person is innocent, that is your perogative, but as I stated earlier perhaps you could use a lesson in objectivity? It would certainly appear to be the case.

You have added nothing to the debate except doubt on all who critique Christopher Hansard, and his blatantly obvious manipulation of the truth.

I see. So it is okay to criticise somebody based on the information supplied by critics, each who have their own personal agenda. Don't you ever feel a little manipulated by that? But it's not Ok to criticise the critics?

And you are talking to me about objectivity?

I don't have an opinion but I do have a lot of facts about Christopher Hansard. Some good, some bad. But then you're not really interested in the facts are you?

[Matt]

When one person says they have facts and reveals them in support of their provisional opinion and another claims to have facts but reveals only their opinion then it is clear who is being honest.
You may criticize the critics but do so with checkable facts.
In other words we are interested in facts. Please provide them.

[mahakala]

You posted this



Surely you are not that unobjective that you cannot formulate the opinion he quite possibly "made it up as he went along"? You appear to be implying that this person absolutely must have knowlege beyond the ken of mortal man for him to do the things he does.

Just stop all this imputation of motive and allegiances will you please.

If you actually studied something of what Hansard does you would see that he has tapped into something from somewhere and that is what interests me. For instance, he claims he received an oral tradition. Well, during the Yar Lung dynasty in Tibet knowledge was an oral tradition and Dur Bon was common and called the Bon of the Grave because of its extensive funeral rites and the story that it was a Dur Bon practitioner that drove a sword into the heart of a particular king during that time. Furthermore, there is a ruined Jangter monastery in Tibet. Furthermore, he uses a language with extensive reference to old Bon god forms and the like. Made it all up; I don't think so. Embellished or intepreted, probably. He got it from somewhere, either research or from somebody. And the fact is, his ideas and approach to things closely resembles the shamanic traditions throughout Russia, the Himalayas and places like Korea. So, to say he made it all up, is just ridiculous and cannot possibly be the conclusion of anyone who has actually studied his work.

The man might be greatly flawed, but he is on to something, regardless of where or how he got it. This becomes clear and indisputable if you actually explore, rather than sit at a computer on the internet and think that what you are reading is little more than tabloid journalism.

[bobdezon]

You repeated insistance "he is onto something" is a fallacy. It is an opinion that you adhere to because it suits what you already believe. This is a form of confirmation bias.You may believe that this mystical shamam based magic has a real world application. I can assure you that it does not. Except perhaps as entertainment.

You can quite rightly critique anyone, anywhere at any time. This is called free speech and it falls under rational discourse too. Critics will always have an agenda, that agenda is usually just critique, not hatred. I do not feel manipulated by reading others critiques, It is upto me to agree or disagree with an idea/concept. All knowlege is the exact same thing. Did you feel manipulated in school learning your times tables?

Of course I am interested in facts, this is a public debate forum and as such if you have a counterpoint or a "flurry of facts" you should make your case instead of just pointlessly arguing about nothing.

To me it matters not what Christopher Hansards con is at any given moment, however what I can assure you given the wealth of information pertaining to his "skill" from people who are actually practitioners of bon, it would appear that what he practises is not Bon, to claim otherwise is clearly fallacious.

I disagree that he is "clearly onto something", or indeed "clear and indesputable". The fact you are arguing his case on a public forum is quite frankly making your statements ironic.

I can explore ideas and principles just as well from my computer as I can by attending a bon class in tibet. Information is information regardless of the method of delivery.

[mahakala]

You repeated insistance "he is onto something" is a fallacy. It is an opinion that you adhere to because it suits what you already believe. This is a form of confirmation bias.You may believe that this mystical shamam based magic has a real world application. I can assure you that it does not. Except perhaps as entertainment.

You can quite rightly critique anyone, anywhere at any time. This is called free speech and it falls under rational discourse too. Critics will always have an agenda, that agenda is usually just critique, not hatred. I do not feel manipulated by reading others critiques, It is upto me to agree or disagree with an idea/concept. All knowlege is the exact same thing. Did you feel manipulated in school learning your times tables?

Of course I am interested in facts, this is a public debate forum and as such if you have a counterpoint or a "flurry of facts" you should make your case instead of just pointlessly arguing about nothing.

To me it matters not what Christopher Hansards con is at any given moment, however what I can assure you given the wealth of information pertaining to his "skill" from people who are actually practitioners of bon, it would appear that what he practises is not Bon, to claim otherwise is clearly fallacious.

I disagree that he is "clearly onto something", or indeed "clear and indesputable". The fact you are arguing his case on a public forum is quite frankly making your statements ironic.

I can explore ideas and principles just as well from my computer as I can by attending a bon class in tibet. Information is information regardless of the method of delivery.

Interesting how you claim I have a bias because of a pre-existing belief and then base that opinion on your own herein stated bias and belief. The idea that you know for a fact anything in this area is pure hubris and makes you absolutely without question unable to investigate it with even the remotest objectivity. So, goodbye and goodnight.

[bobdezon]

Thanks for proving my point, ta ta for now ;)

[mahakala]

Thanks for proving my point, ta ta for now ;)

Caught you Manjit.>:D

[bobdezon]

Of course you did, be a good boy and run along home now, momma has some ice cream in the oven for you.:-* Youve been ever so good.

[mahakala]

Of course you did, be a good boy and run along home now, momma has some ice cream in the oven for you.:-* Youve been ever so good.

Usual internet bravery I see. Usual internet put down. Usual disingenuous trollop.

[bobdezon]

Yes we can all see your capable of dictionary.com insults, thats really brave of you to try out those big "2 dollar" words there champ.

Im brave in real life too, would you like me to threaten you with a good chakra aligning?

It would appear you are nothing but an oxygen thief, good day sir.^-^

[bindeweede]

Bob,

Your name is Bob, and you are a trollop, therefore you are a public house.....

http://www.pubsnewcastle.co.uk/BobTrollop.html

Know what I mean?

[bobdezon]

lol say no more.............. O0

[mahakala]

lol say no more.............. O0

Of course you also know more about shamanism than this guy.

http://www.thefourwinds.com/about-alberto-villoldo.htm

[bindeweede]

Of course you also know more about shamanism than this guy.

http://www.thefourwinds.com/about-alberto-villoldo.htm

What I discovered was a set of sacred technologies that transform the body, heal the soul, and can change the way we live and the way we die. They explain that we are surrounded by a Luminous Energy Field (LEF) whose source is located in infinity. The LEF was a matrix that maintains the health and vibrancy of the physical body.

Utter tripe.

[bindeweede]

What I discovered was a set of sacred technologies that transform the body, heal the soul, and can change the way we live and the way we die. They explain that we are surrounded by a Luminous Energy Field (LEF) whose source is located in infinity. The LEF was a matrix that maintains the health and vibrancy of the physical body.

Utter tripe.

And more bollocks.....

http://www.munay-ki.org/

Even more total and utter shite....

http://www.dyingconsciously.org/

Chuffing Norah.....

http://www.inkasunstaff.org/

Do you know, I have fairies squatting in the hedge at the bottom of my garden.........but please don't worry about me....those nice gentlemen in their lovely white coats are coming, soon, to take me away to their "Happy Farm". Love and Light, forever.

[mahakala]

And more bollocks.....

http://www.munay-ki.org/

Even more total and utter shite....

http://www.dyingconsciously.org/

Chuffing Norah.....

http://www.inkasunstaff.org/

Do you know, I have fairies squatting in the hedge at the bottom of my garden.........but please don't worry about me....those nice gentlemen in their lovely white coats are coming, soon, to take me away to their "Happy Farm". Love and Light, forever.


Yeah, life is a pint of bitters, a good cigar, a bit of agro, and little in out, eh what.

See you at the milkbar.

[bindeweede]

Yeah, life is a pint of bitters, a good cigar, a bit of agro, http://www.inkasunstaff.org/

See you at the milkbar.

Well, Burton Ale is rather good, and so is London Pride. I don't smoke or engage in fisticuffs. Milkibar chocolate is too sweet for me - I assume that is what you talk of.

Oh sorry, Angostura! A bit too sophisticated for me.

It would be AWFULLY GOOD if you could communicate in a comprehensible way - and little in out, eh what.

Well, I think I comprehend what you are attempting to express.....

[mahakala]

Well, Burton Ale is rather good, and so is London Pride. I don't smoke or engage in fisticuffs. Milkibar chocolate is too sweet for me - I assume that is what you talk of.

Oh sorry, Angostura! A bit too sophisticated for me.

It would be AWFULLY GOOD if you could communicate in a comprehensible way - and little in out, eh what.

Well, I think I comprehend what you are attempting to express.....




Yes, I'm sure you do. But in order to honour your request:

http://imdb.com/name/nm0000040/

[bobdezon]

Of course you also know more about shamanism than this guy.

http://www.thefourwinds.com/about-alberto-villoldo.htm

Again you offer nothing to the debate, but rather make unbased assumptions about my alleged expertise, very enlightened of you really isnt it? I know hes a medical anthropologist and psychologist with a Ph.D who has studied shamanism for the past 20 years. Im my opinion he is an "expert" in shamanism. That does not imply he is a shaman, or has magical abilities, but rather he has studied shamans and their practises. There is nothing unusual about that.

However he would appear to be trying to perform experiments that mix complimentary (read imaginary) medicines with actual psychological processes. While this sounds interesting it is ultimately useless as he is basing his assumption on his belief that shamanism has a bilogical influence. Shamanism is magic, not physical and subsequently has no effect on a person excepting a psychological one (if they believe), and possibly a pharmacological one if any "shaman juice" is injested (peyote springs to mind).

If you have a personal belief in this imaginary shamanism process then good for you, however it is just an imaginary process because it has no evidence it works. Might I suggest you become a member of the real world, where real phenomena has a real physical effect. Trust me, youll like it here.

[Matt]

Well, Burton Ale is rather good, and so is London Pride. I don't smoke or engage in fisticuffs. Milkibar chocolate is too sweet for me - I assume that is what you talk of.

Oh sorry, Angostura! A bit too sophisticated for me.

It would be AWFULLY GOOD if you could communicate in a comprehensible way - and little in out, eh what.

Well, I think I comprehend what you are attempting to express.....




He's talking in nadast in reference to Anthony Burgess's "A Clockwork Orange" I'm not sure what the reference is supposed to imply.

The protagonist Alex and his droogs used to meet up in a "Milk Bar" and drink "Moloko" a narcotic milk based drink before going out and randomly terrorising the neighbourhood. "A little in and out" was how Alex referred to sex or rape.

Of vague interest is that the final chapter was not present in the Amercian edition of the book, arguably reversing the moral message of the book. This expurgated version was the version from which Kubrick wrote the screenplay.

[mahakala]

Again you offer nothing to the debate, but rather make unbased assumptions about my alleged expertise, very enlightened of you really isnt it? I know hes a medical anthropologist and psychologist with a Ph.D who has studied shamanism for the past 20 years. Im my opinion he is an "expert" in shamanism. That does not imply he is a shaman, or has magical abilities, but rather he has studied shamans and their practises. There is nothing unusual about that.

However he would appear to be trying to perform experiments that mix complimentary (read imaginary) medicines with actual psychological processes. While this sounds interesting it is ultimately useless as he is basing his assumption on his belief that shamanism has a bilogical influence. Shamanism is magic, not physical and subsequently has no effect on a person excepting a psychological one (if they believe), and possibly a pharmacological one if any "shaman juice" is injested (peyote springs to mind).

If you have a personal belief in this imaginary shamanism process then good for you, however it is just an imaginary process because it has no evidence it works. Might I suggest you become a member of the real world, where real phenomena has a real physical effect. Trust me, youll like it here.

Oh so, psychological effects are not real either. But beliefs are. Weird. The formation of beliefs is all about psychological effects, or didn't you realise that.

[mahakala]

Again you offer nothing to the debate, but rather make unbased assumptions about my alleged expertise, very enlightened of you really isnt it? I know hes a medical anthropologist and psychologist with a Ph.D who has studied shamanism for the past 20 years. Im my opinion he is an "expert" in shamanism. That does not imply he is a shaman, or has magical abilities, but rather he has studied shamans and their practises. There is nothing unusual about that.

However he would appear to be trying to perform experiments that mix complimentary (read imaginary) medicines with actual psychological processes. While this sounds interesting it is ultimately useless as he is basing his assumption on his belief that shamanism has a bilogical influence. Shamanism is magic, not physical and subsequently has no effect on a person excepting a psychological one (if they believe), and possibly a pharmacological one if any "shaman juice" is injested (peyote springs to mind).

If you have a personal belief in this imaginary shamanism process then good for you, however it is just an imaginary process because it has no evidence it works. Might I suggest you become a member of the real world, where real phenomena has a real physical effect. Trust me, youll like it here.

I'm also wondering if you have had any significant real world experience with "complimentary" medicine, or your thoughts are informed by your beliefs and your imaginations, as you state is the case with Dr. Villoldo.

[bobdezon]

Oh so, psychological effects are not real either. But beliefs are. Weird. The formation of beliefs is all about psychological effects, or didn't you realise that.

I think Ive stated quite clearly that psychology is a worthy branch of cognative sciences, I believe it has value. I did not state psychological effects are not real, you would know that if you actually read my post. I do not know if a psychological effect formulates a belief or is merely influential in its contstruction, you would have to ask Dr B about that. I am not a psychologist. Perhaps you are a psychologist and actually know what you are talking about? but to be honest, judging from your nonsensicle posts it would appear you need help just tying your laces.



I'm also wondering if you have had any significant real world experience with "complimentary" medicine, or your thoughts are informed by your beliefs and your imaginations, as you state is the case with Dr. Villoldo.

How wold you define "significant real world experience", and "complimentary"? Incidentally everyones thoughts are likely to be formed by their beliefs and imagination, if it is part of the cognative process. I did not state what Villodo was doing except perhaps experiments. Nothing wrong with experimentation, however I doubt the results will be favourable.

Please read peoples replies it makes answering your questions much easier, and it will actually give you something to think about instead of just adding more unrelated questions to this thread.

[mahakala]

I think Ive stated quite clearly that psychology is a worthy branch of cognative sciences, I believe it has value. I did not state psychological effects are not real, you would know that if you actually read my post. I do not know if a psychological effect formulates a belief or is merely influential in its contstruction, you would have to ask Dr B about that. I am not a psychologist. Perhaps you are a psychologist and actually know what you are talking about? but to be honest, judging from your nonsensicle posts it would appear you need help just tying your laces.




How wold you define "significant real world experience", and "complimentary"? Incidentally everyones thoughts are likely to be formed by their beliefs and imagination, if it is part of the cognative process. I did not state what Villodo was doing except perhaps experiments. Nothing wrong with experimentation, however I doubt the results will be favourable.

Please read peoples replies it makes answering your questions much easier, and it will actually give you something to think about instead of just adding more unrelated questions to this thread.

I asked you if you had any real world experience, not just cruising the internet and reading other peoples opinions.

You also stated that complimentary medicine is all imaginary. Do you have any real world experience with complimentary medicine, or not?

[bobdezon]

I asked you if you had any real world experience, not just cruising the internet and reading other peoples opinions.

You also stated that complimentary medicine is all imaginary. Do you have any real world experience with complimentary medicine, or not?

I shall refer you to my previous post. When you have read that and answered my questions, I shall endevour to supply you with answers. Until then I shall ignore the fact that you have just quoted my post in its entirety and commited a dreadful cognative faux pas. O0

[mahakala]

I shall refer you to my previous post. When you have read that and answered my questions, I shall endevour to supply you with answers. Until then I shall ignore the fact that you have just quoted my post in its entirety and commited a dreadful cognative faux pas. O0

Nice try. Obviously you have little or no experience, like I thought.

[seren]

Well alright then, I shall answer so we can put this aside and move on.

1. I have experience of using complimentary therapies and medicines, and various kinds of "healing" activities, including using homeopathic remedies (although I never actually believed in that, I was of the "well it's worth a try, isn't it?" school of idiot), Bach flower essences, aromatherapy and herbs.

2. I actually studied shamanism as part of my religious studies course at University, and subsequently out of my own interest- hence my undertaking a shamanic journey without hallucinogens once. I stress this "journey" was made under the guidance and leadership of believing shamans, not just in my living room on a bored Sunday. I have also attempted on several occasions to have mystical experiences using natural hallucinogens. So, although far from an expert, I am not a total novice.

3. I hereby state, unequivocally and with feeling, that all the therapies listed at 1, and shamanic journeying and mysticism at 2 are complete and utter nonsense.

Alright? You now have someone with experience of complimentary therapies who agrees with and supports bobdezon's position. Does that make his (her? its?) position any stronger? Are you more prepared to believe it?

PS Why personal experience of complimentary therapies does not prove they are effective (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=it_worked_for_me.php)

[Julia]

What I discovered was a set of sacred technologies that transform the body, heal the soul, and can change the way we live and the way we die. They explain that we are surrounded by a Luminous Energy Field (LEF) whose source is located in infinity. The LEF was a matrix that maintains the health and vibrancy of the physical body.

Isn't it odd that the very same people who peddle anti-scientific crap dress it up in scientific terminology? "Technologies...energy field...matrix..." I'm surprised they left out the ever-popular "quantum". What a steaming pile of poo! ::)

And thanks for those words of wisdom, seren!

[vbloke]

They explain that we are surrounded by a Luminous Energy Field (LEF) whose source is located in infinity. The LEF was a matrix that maintains the health and vibrancy of the physical body.If it located in infinity, then it is utterly beyond reach, for infinity is further away than anything you could possibly imagine.

Think of a number - any number; as big as you possibly can. Whatever you think of, I can still multiply it by itself a billion times and it still won't be as big as infinity.

A good example is this: a hotel has infinitely many rooms, each one labelled by a number printed on the door: Room 1, Room 2, Room 3, etc..
One night, a traveller arrives at the front desk only to be told be the clerk that the hotel is full. "But don't worry, sir," says the clerk, "I know how to find you a room. Just give me a minute to make some phone calls."
A short while later, the traveller has his room for the night. What the clerk did was ask every guest to move to the room with the room number the next integer.
Thus, the occupant of Room 1 moved into Room 2, the occupant of Room 2 into Room 3, etc.
Everyone moved room, no one was ejected from the hotel, and Room 1 became vacant for the newly arrived guest.
What's more, you can do this an infinite number of times. That's how big infinity is.

So to say something is "located in infinity" and is reachable is like saying "oh, it's only a mile away" to an person who's nailed to the floor - each is equally as incapable of getting there.

[bobdezon]

You forget that buzz lightyear went to infinity...........and beyondO0

[mahakala]

You could say that electro-magnetism being one of the known forces in the universe is something that connects the individual to the cosmos because they share that.

[bobdezon]

That makes as much sense as this:

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4633/nonsense3wma4.jpg

[vbloke]

You could say that electro-magnetism being one of the known forces in the universe is something that connects the individual to the cosmos because they share that.You could say that, but it would still be wrong.

I'd like you to explain exactly how the electromagnetic field you produce connects you to the cosmos, considering that any field would propagate at the speed of light ,which, whilst fast, is still finite in speed, so would take over 13.7 billion years to reach the edges of the observable universe.

[mahakala]

You could say that, but it would still be wrong.

I'd like you to explain exactly how the electromagnetic field you produce connects you to the cosmos, considering that any field would propagate at the speed of light ,which, whilst fast, is still finite in speed, so would take over 13.7 billion years to reach the edges of the observable universe.

I don't feel the need to explain anything to anybody, especially since I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. These folks have a particular world view. Maybe you could try to understand it before you debunk it.

But never mind.

The hatred for anyone that has a different world view than your own kind of oozes off many of the posts here.

Kind of schoolyardish, or perhaps Hooterish, if you know what I mean.

Which makes posting here kind of retrograde.

[vbloke]

I don't feel the need to explain anything to anybody, especially since I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. These folks have a particular world view. Maybe you could try to understand it before you debunk it.

But never mind.

The hatred for anyone that has a different world view than your own kind of oozes off many of the posts here.

Kind of schoolyardish, or perhaps Hooterish, if you know what I mean.

Which makes posting here kind of retrograde.Well, you are the one defending the claims made, so it is really your job to convince us that they have merit - all we are doing is enquiring as to how these things work and stating reasons why they can't according to their own levels of explanation.

[seren]

bobdezon I love that picture, what is it? It pretty much accurately portrays the depth of meaning in your average hallucinogenic experience ie virtually nil. In fact it's more interesting. I like the happy dinosaurs.



These folks have a particular world view. Maybe you could try to understand it before you debunk it.

Oh but I do. Did I mention I did religious studies at University? Not Theology, mind, but religious studies, covering the major monotheistic faiths, Hinduism, anthropology of religion including shamanism and possession, the "New Age", and sociology of religion, and my particular specialism, Buddhism.

It's fascinating, but that doesn't make it true. There's not a shred of evidence that any of it is "true". I do know, and I still debunk. I've said nothing hateful. In short I meet all your requirements; where does that leave us?

[Mongrel]

I'll just add a link to Doggerel (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/11/doggerel-46-dont-knock-woo-before-you.html)

[mahakala]

Well, you are the one defending the claims made, so it is really your job to convince us that they have merit - all we are doing is enquiring as to how these things work and stating reasons why they can't according to their own levels of explanation.

Actually I tend to agree that they don't work according to their level of explanation, in most cases.

[mahakala]

Well alright then, I shall answer so we can put this aside and move on.

1. I have experience of using complimentary therapies and medicines, and various kinds of "healing" activities, including using homeopathic remedies (although I never actually believed in that, I was of the "well it's worth a try, isn't it?" school of idiot), Bach flower essences, aromatherapy and herbs.

2. I actually studied shamanism as part of my religious studies course at University, and subsequently out of my own interest- hence my undertaking a shamanic journey without hallucinogens once. I stress this "journey" was made under the guidance and leadership of believing shamans, not just in my living room on a bored Sunday. I have also attempted on several occasions to have mystical experiences using natural hallucinogens. So, although far from an expert, I am not a total novice.

3. I hereby state, unequivocally and with feeling, that all the therapies listed at 1, and shamanic journeying and mysticism at 2 are complete and utter nonsense.

Alright? You now have someone with experience of complimentary therapies who agrees with and supports bobdezon's position. Does that make his (her? its?) position any stronger? Are you more prepared to believe it?

PS Why personal experience of complimentary therapies does not prove they are effective (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=it_worked_for_me.php)

Anecdotal evidence is of course always suspect. However, at a certain point the quantity and quality of the evidence brings the cause of the outcomes into question.

[seren]

Phew, thanks for replying, I was beginning to think I didn't exist! ;)

I'm not sure how you measure the quality of anecdotal evidence. More detail? More reliable witnesses? How do you define who's a more reliable witness?

As for quantity well I wonder how many people claim to have been abducted by aliens- yet there's no other proof whatsoever that it's true. Ghosts, father christmas, spirits...all believed in by millions, but that's all they have going for them. How many people in the end gave their religion as "Jedi" in the last census, but it doesn't make it a real religion.

A lot of anecdotal evidence might mean that a subject is worth investigating, if that's what you mean. If there was enough anecdotal evidence that, say, a particular plant had a particular medicinal property, that may be cause to investigate and research those supposed properties. In that sense what you say is correct, and in the case of "spiritual" experiences it's been done, and there *are* explanations of the cause of the outcome. There's a part of the brain- the temporal lobes I believe but I'm sure someone with more understanding than me can confirm- that when stimulated can produce these kinds of experience.

I believe I'm right in saying hallucinogens act in part by affecting seratonin receptors, that's what causes the hallucinations.

Whether hallucinations, spiritual experiences or any kind of religious feeling have any meaning is entirely down to the individual experiencing it; how they choose to interpret it, what meaning *they* choose to give to the firing off of various thingummies (look, I ain't a scientist!) in the brain. In other words, they have no real meaning at all.

If we're talking about healing, well there's the good old well researched placebo effect. :smiley:

[Cuddles]

Anecdotal evidence is of course always suspect. However, at a certain point the quantity and quality of the evidence brings the cause of the outcomes into question.

No it doesn't.

[mahakala]

Acceptance that there is something to anecdotal evidence leads to the following types of research, for instance:

In 1972 the University of Missouri received the first National Institutes of Health acupuncture grant. Colleagues and I designed a study to compare acupuncture and hypnosis for modulation of experimental pain. We were able to report that acupuncture was not hypnosis. Most important was our finding that when the needles were stimulated by electricity it significantly increased acupuncture's ability to control pain. Although aware of its placebo effect, we were convinced that acupuncture worked by some neuro-physiological mechanism (Ulett and Han 2002). On a trip to China I met Professor JiSheng Han of Beijing Medical University. He showed me that, by transfusion of spinal fluid, he had transferred acupuncture analgesia from a treated to an untreated animal. This proved the neurochemical basis of acupuncture. He then spent thirty years unveiling the biological mechanisms of acupuncture by mapping the anatomical pathways and biochemistry of this ancient practice (Han 1998). He found that with proper electrical stimulation of the nervous system, specific frequencies could effect the gene expression of specific neuropeptides in the central nervous system. Thus he showed that acupuncture could significantly increase the spinal fluid content of substances such as endorphins and dynorphins. These had specific healing actions in the brain and spinal cord. Endorphins, for example, can activate an opioid receptor that is now known to have an important anti-anxiety effect. He also showed that there was a cross-tolerance between acupuncture and morphine in the treatment of drug addiction. Han demonstrated that stimulation could be done with polymer conducting EKG-type pads placed on the surface of the skin over motor points. No "magic needles" were necessary.
By 2001 functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) studies, especially those of Professor Z.H. Cho of the University of California Medical School at Irvine, demonstrated significant supporting evidence of a biological basis for acupuncture. Cho showed that electro-acupuncture stimulation can affect the diencephalic area of the brain, a region that promotes the body's own healing responses. Here sensory stimulation of the hypothalamus enhances homeostasis through activating the autonomic nervous system, balancing hormonal regulation by action of the pituitary gland and effecting anti-pain and limbic system responses (Cho, Wong, and Fallon 2001).

[Cuddles]

Acceptance that there is something to anecdotal evidence leads to the following types of research, for instance:.

Wow, acceptance of anecdotal evidence leads to a load of bollocks. Seriously, you think dribbling about acupuncture somehow supports your case?

[mahakala]

Wow, acceptance of anecdotal evidence leads to a load of bollocks. Seriously, you think dribbling about acupuncture somehow supports your case?

And which case would that be? And could I invite you for a pint of aconite beer while you explain it to me.

[bobdezon]

And which case would that be? And could I invite you for a pint of aconite beer while you explain it to me.


I would give that one a miss cuddles. Aconite contains aconitine which is a deadly alkaloid. I think hes trying to kill you miss marple style ::)

[davron]

Are you sure you two are not the Pizza Guru and the Flying Saucer Man?;D

The philisophical debate is very amusing to follow, aint had this much fun since getting drunk in a bar in Haifa;). Having been inspired by you all to read the Rick Ross stuff again, I noticed there was mention that Pizza Guru and Flying Saucer Man knew each other before the Flying Saucer Man became the all knowing, all seeing, self appointed and only official 'Voice of Tibet'. Sounds like a case of when theives fall out. Any mention of any previous connnection made in the forum is blanked by Flying Saucer Man full stop:-X, code of silence stuff. Pizza Guru cannot comment as he has been banned from the site.


Fun as it is guys. There may be a chance of Dur Bon still being around. It being and oral tradition, well we wont be able to find out until someone stolls up and tells us::). Pizza Guru made a pile of cash and has spent it all, how much does Flying Saucer Man make from his venture?

I find them both as dubious as each other, the 'Charitiy Ball Scam' comes to mind when I thin of their activities.

Davron- looking for another bar and ducking rocket grenades.

[davron]

Are you sure you two are not the Pizza Guru and the Flying Saucer Man?;D

The philisophical debate is very amusing to follow, aint had this much fun since getting drunk in a bar in Haifa;). Having been inspired by you all to read the Rick Ross stuff again, I noticed there was mention that Pizza Guru and Flying Saucer Man knew each other before the Flying Saucer Man became the all knowing, all seeing, self appointed and only official 'Voice of Tibet'. Sounds like a case of when theives fall out. Any mention of any previous connnection made in the forum is blanked by Flying Saucer Man full stop:-X, code of silence stuff. Pizza Guru cannot comment as he has been banned from the site.


Fun as it is guys. There may be a chance of Dur Bon still being around. It being and oral tradition, well we wont be able to find out until someone stolls up and tells us::). Pizza Guru made a pile of cash and has spent it all, how much does Flying Saucer Man make from his venture?

I find them both as dubious as each other, the 'Charitiy Ball Scam' comes to mind when I think of their activities.

Davron- looking for another bar and ducking rocket grenades.

[davron]

Oh yeah. The bit about all alternative/complimentary medicine being bogus and unproven. Does that include the use of vitamins, minerals and herbs used in nutritional therapy, dietary therapy and naturopathy. Backed by real iffy journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine, British Medical Journal, Lancet, Clinical Nutrition Review etc, etc?>:D

[mahakala]

The question of flying saucer man's motivation is indeed intriguing. For him to put so much effort into it, including his blog, spying on the pizza guru, sending letters and all that........there must be some history or else somebody is paying him. Or perhaps he is like that lone anti-abortionist that stands on the street corner waiving her sign........you know......in the name of God and the Catholic Church, or in this case, The One True Tibetan Religion. Or maybe he has a crush and it is all a racket. According to the RR site PG did once troll for customers in that part of town. The other theory mentioned at RR is that the picture book once listed under PG's name at Amazon was co-authored by FSM and they are having a business squabble. I wish they would tell, but I guess they are wooses in that department.

[mahakala]

Oh yeah. The bit about all alternative/complimentary medicine being bogus and unproven. Does that include the use of vitamins, minerals and herbs used in nutritional therapy, dietary therapy and naturopathy. Backed by real iffy journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine, British Medical Journal, Lancet, Clinical Nutrition Review etc, etc?>:D

Yes of course it does :cheesy:. They are all woos, especially the editors of those tabloids you mentioned.;)

[seren]

Welcome Davron.

What does taking vitamins cure you of? Isn't it a supplement?
(Those are serious questions btw, I'm not taking the p).

Read this. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=alternative_medicine.php)
And this. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=herbal_medicine.php)


After my calls for patience just a few weeks ago I believe I have finally had enough. In future I'm going for the Cuddles brief n brusque approach.

[mahakala]

Welcome Davron.

What does taking vitamins cure you of? Isn't it a supplement?
(Those are serious questions btw, I'm not taking the p).

Read this. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=alternative_medicine.php)
And this. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=herbal_medicine.php)


After my calls for patience just a few weeks ago I believe I have finally had enough. In future I'm going for the Cuddles brief n brusque approach.

Quite a wonderful supplement being used to treat bi-polar disorder in Canada if you care to look into it.

[mahakala]

[quote=davron;23233]Are you sure you two are not the Pizza Guru and the Flying Saucer Man?;D

By the way, in response to your query, my name is Christopher Hansard and I'm an alcoholic, urrrggg, I mean my name is Jeffrey Bowe and I'm a scientologist, urrrggg, I mean my name is Rick Ross and I'm a secret agent working for David Icke's reptilian fascimile running for presdient of the United States........you got a problem with that?

[MischiefMonkey]

Welcome Davron.

What does taking vitamins cure you of? Isn't it a supplement?
(Those are serious questions btw, I'm not taking the p).

Read this. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=alternative_medicine.php)
And this. (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=herbal_medicine.php)


After my calls for patience just a few weeks ago I believe I have finally had enough. In future I'm going for the Cuddles brief n brusque approach.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to start another thread (at a time when I'm not about to go off to bed) but I take Angus Castus for 'woman problems' and it does seem to work.

On occasion I take Valerian for sleep problems. Again they seem to work.

I accept it could be the placebo effect, but how do I tell? Although I have occasionally taken valerian for years, and find it comparable to a low dose of Tamazipan (which were handed out like sweeties when I was last in hospital), I was very sceptical about Angus Castus. Other suppliments had no effect on regulating my cycle, but AC did.

I slip my youngest son fish oils. He thinks it is just funny milk shake. But his concentration seems to have improved. It could be I am expecting an improvement and thus do *something* different which has affected his behaviour.

I don't know. Most 'woo' I dismiss. But nutrition and supplements, I still believe in.

[Matt]

Oh yeah. The bit about all alternative/complimentary medicine being bogus and unproven. Does that include the use of vitamins, minerals and herbs used in nutritional therapy, dietary therapy and naturopathy. Backed by real iffy journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine, British Medical Journal, Lancet, Clinical Nutrition Review etc, etc?>:D

If it's proven it's effects in DBT's then it's no longer alternative, it's just medicine. Vitamins are very good a curing vitimin defficiencies. Minerals are very good at curing mineral deficiencies. Either should be taken if a deficiency has been diagnosed.

I'm not familar with "nutritional therapy" or "dietary therapy but if you're talking about eating a balanced diet comprising the major food groups including 5 portions of fruit or vegetasbles a day then go for it. Though that would harldy be alternative now would it. Natropathy is one of the more dangerous alternative therapies. Whilst many alternative practictioners have no effect thier major cause of harm is in stopping patients from seeking convetional medical care. Natropathy uses naturally occuring compounds as drugs. And these drugs do have an effect. DBT's will confirm and such drugs can either be used as conventional medicines or the active ingredients can be isolated, refined and synthesised. many conventional drugs found this route to the market place. The problem is that when such materials are prescribed by non-medically qualified people not all the side effects are fully quantified. E.g. depressed person seeks help from a natropath who prescribes St Johns Wort which may be marginally effective - however person is on the contraceptive pill and St John Wort is very effective at nullifying the effects of the contraceptive pill. Whammo she now has an unplanned pregnancy goes really well with depression don't you think.

[seren]

Davlon,
You don't go into any detail. Do you mean this?


EM power+ (also referred to as Empowerplus) is a vitamin and mineral product that was formulated by two lay people (i.e. non-scientists) in Alberta, Canada as a supposed cure for various psychiatric conditions like bipolar disorder and bipolar disorder......the Canadian government has issued a health hazard warning informing people not to use the product because it has not been proven safe and because the company is encouraging people to go off prescribed medications. There is at least one lawsuit that we are aware of by a family of a man that states their son went off his medications, began taking the Empowerplus product, and quickly got worse and now they can't get him back on his medication because he is psychotic.
http://www.pendulum.org/treatments.htm#empower
More here: http://bipolar.about.com/cs/altercomp/a/truehope.htm
And here:
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Bipolar/news_2007/treatment_alternative.asp



However, there has been some research (in addition to case studies and anecdotal evidence) that indicate specific nutrient deficiencies can exacerbate depressive symptoms, anxiety, insomnia, or other symptoms that commonly trouble people with bipolar disorder.
http://www.pendulum.org/treatments.htm#vitamins

If that's true (they don't cite a source), rather than taking more of whatever vitamin or mineral, bipolar people may benefit from ensuring they get enough. Seems reasonable to me.

[mahakala]

If you go to their webpage you will get a more complete story.


http://www.truehope.com/_empowerplus/empowerplus.asp

[bindeweede]

If you go to their webpage you will get a more complete story.


http://www.truehope.com/_empowerplus/empowerplus.asp

Or


http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/2003/2003-07-15_e.html

[davron]

I asked about vitamins because when younger I went to a naturopath, following mothers orders, and was advised a vitamin program. The family doctor told me I was a fool. Twenty years later I was told the same thing by the new army doctor, same vitamins, same program. One mans new cutting edges science is another mans crap, becomes another mans science.

as for this below,

Davlon,
You don't go into any detail. Do you mean this?


Quote:
EM power+ (also referred to as Empowerplus) is a vitamin and mineral product that was formulated by two lay people (i.e. non-scientists) in Alberta, Canada as a supposed cure for various psychiatric conditions like bipolar disorder and bipolar disorder......the Canadian government has issued a health hazard warning informing people not to use the product because it has not been proven safe and because the company is encouraging people to go off prescribed medications. There is at least one lawsuit that we are aware of by a family of a man that states their son went off his medications, began taking the Empowerplus product, and quickly got worse and now they can't get him back on his medication because he is psychotic.

Never heard of this stuff you brought it up.

As for anti-psychotics etc any thoughts of young children and suicide risk from seroxat?

Davron who found the bar and ducked the grenades;D

[mahakala]

Or


http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/2003/2003-07-15_e.html

That was four years ago and Health Canada has since made peace with them. So stop being so dimwitted and think you know anything about a story that has been unfolding in my backyard.

[bindeweede]

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/2007/2007_17_e.html

[seren]

Never heard of this stuff you brought it up.
My bad, I was responding to Mahakala and got mixed up. :cheesy:
Oh, and apologies for calling you Davlon earlier. Duh.



As for anti-psychotics etc any thoughts of young children and suicide risk from seroxat?
That's called moving the goal posts. We're not talking about problems with pharmaceuticals, we're talking the efficacy of herbal medicines.

1. That seroxat or any other mainstream medicine may have negative side-effects has no bearing on the safety or otherwise of herbal medicine. I might well respond "any thoughts of black cohosh and liver damage?" or "any thoughts about juniper berries and kidney damage/risk to people with diabetes?" or "any thoughts on st john's wort and sensitivity to the sun?".

2. Who ever said mainstream medicine doesn't have side-effects? Mainstream medicine has been tested, the side-effects are known and are communicated to the person taking the medicine, or the drug is not licenced, or withdrawn. This is not the case with herbal remedies. This was explained in the links you didn't read from my earlier post. Also see Matt's post.

3. Because of 2, Seroxat is no longer used on under 18s in the UK. So the suicide risk to children is currently hovering somewhere around 0%.


Davron who found the bar and ducked the grenades

Que?



Mahakala,

So stop being so dimwitted and think you know anything about a story that has been unfolding in my backyard.

You asked if I/we "care to educate" ourselves about it, we did and now you tell us we can't comment because we're not there. WTF?
You're intelligent enough to know that's a pretty poor argument.

PS I've just been reading about you on wikipedia. Are you the six armed, four armed or two armed variety?

[davron]

Ah well you see,

I was trying to point out that
1 not all alternative medicine is bogus
2 some of it is well researched
3 some well researched medication can be very harmful when stated to be 'safe
4 research can be 'clouded' in favour of thoses who manufacture the product
5 you cannot always assume that research is honest or correct
6 you cannot also assume the long term and establish use of a substance is safe
7 inspite of research we still have alcohol, nicotine, sugar etc. etc
8 inspite of being researched the side effects of medication are not always known until mass use and on occasion have not been reported to the end user. i.e. the patient

It is a minefield and it is wrong to assume all doctors and medical research is 'correct'. In the same breath it is wrong to assume all natural medicine is unresearched and 'wrong'. In the end it is a case by case basis. Some time history of use is correct etc, etc. Some times its so dam wrong it stinks.

The army guys who use camels stopped their camel trainers feeding mouldy grain to the camels when they were sick in the 60's:-\. In the 1990's they discovered that the potion they used contained a tetracycline strain of mould which worked dam fine on camels and people (if you could stand the taste/smell);D. In the meantime a lot of arab camel doctors were told they were stupid and a lot of camels died.

As an aside ask any decent doctor how many hours they get on nutrition and you will be appaled at the lack of training and or understanding. After all we are built out of food.

As for dodging genades. Think of a small country with funny dietary habits, powerful mothers, ugly women, that builds walls and its all the nextdoor neibours throw bombs at them as a national hobby.O0


:totty:

Davron

[Matt]

1 not all alternative medicine is bogus
2 some of it is well researched


Surely if it's well researched it's eaither known to be bogus or is just medicine rather than alternative medicine



3 some well researched medication can be very harmful when stated to be 'safe
4 research can be 'clouded' in favour of thoses who manufacture the product
5 you cannot always assume that research is honest or correct
6 you cannot also assume the long term and establish use of a substance is safe
7 inspite of research we still have alcohol, nicotine, sugar etc. etc
8 inspite of being researched the side effects of medication are not always known until mass use and on occasion have not been reported to the end user. i.e. the patient


Possibility is not probability



It is a minefield and it is wrong to assume all doctors and medical research is 'correct'. In the same breath it is wrong to assume all natural medicine is unresearched and 'wrong'.


If it's researched and tight it's natural but it's no longer alternative. As such alternative medicine is either unresearched or non beneficial.



In the end it is a case by case basis. Some time history of use is correct etc, etc. Some times its so dam wrong it stinks.

The army guys who use camels stopped their camel trainers feeding mouldy grain to the camels when they were sick in the 60's:-\. In the 1990's they discovered that the potion they used contained a tetracycline strain of mould which worked dam fine on camels and people (if you could stand the taste/smell);D. In the meantime a lot of arab camel doctors were told they were stupid and a lot of camels died.



If this is true then initially it was unresearched alternative medicine. As such an unknown quantity. It is now a researched natural medicine.

Is ask if it's true because it doesn't quite ring true. Why wouldn't the army have substituted regular antibiotics? I see no reason why the camels should die is treated with properly researched medication.


As an aside ask any decent doctor how many hours they get on nutrition and you will be appaled at the lack of training and or understanding. After all we are built out of food.


OK will do. I recived very good dietary advice from Doctors and from medically trained nutritionists. What I'm most appalled by is the claptrap spouted by people like pretend docort Gillian McKeith whose advice really fsked up my girlfriend.

[davron]

'If this is true then initially it was unresearched alternative medicine. As such an unknown quantity. It is now a researched natural medicine'.

So did this make the camel doctors quacks or well reaserched physicians, or poor illiterate hearders getting things right by accident? Could it have been well researched medicine of its time?

'Is ask if it's true because it doesn't quite ring true. Why wouldn't the army have substituted regular antibiotics? I see no reason why the camels should die is treated with properly researched medication'.

The answer to that one is easy, its the army you are dealing with! :cheesy:

Camels do not have the same physiology as people, also the digestive tract, which is where they get most problems, is beyond the peculiar. Antibiotics could not probably be supplied in the same volume, I will ask a camel next time I see one for the answer.

Which has go us a long way from the Pizza God and Flying Saucer Man. To which no one answered my question what kind of revenue generation do we suspect the flying Saucer Man gets from his web ventures etc?

[seren]

Oh no no no no! I was just giggling at all the camels and thinking what a weird tangent we'd got ourselves down. Don't stop now. At this rate we'll be discussing quantum tapirs within the week and I don't want to miss it!

[mahakala]

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/2007/2007_17_e.html

Yes of course. A certain amount of people become suicidal and homocidal when they take Paxil, but that's OK apparently as far as Health Canada is concerned.

But what is really interesting about this product is the people who got better. If the other people were properly monitored then the side effects caused by going off their meds would have been caught and stopped. Furthermore, if that percentage was really that large there would be way more cases of side effects.

For some reason, the psychiatric establishment doesn't want to look at the fact that there may a variety of reasons and thus a variety of treatments for bi-polar disorder. I wonder why? Could it be.......funding?

[mahakala]

P.S.

My apologies to whoever it was I accused of being dimwitted in their response.

Health Canada is so irritating sometimes. For several years they used to raid health food stores for melatonin supplements. They barge into your business and start searching the premises, no warrants, nothing, and threaten to close you down if you don't comply.

Then they decide it is OK. And so on with all kinds of products used as alternatives to various pharmaceuticals.

Their "side effect reports" are often just urban myths and the stories of nutters who overdose on supplements or have serious ailments that need monitoring by a relevent professionals.

[davron]

Ok 'quantum tapirs' burning question are the related to 'quantum lamas'. If so are they a medicine or an alternative compound (unregulated) or just a natural event.

Sometimes ducking the grenades seems almost sane compared to the internet.

Davron:eek3:

[davron]

Matt,

I do take your point. It is my experiance that the natural medicine people I have met loathe 'tv idol guru health doctors'. We have a few out here. My chiropractor and her pal the naturopath think they stink. They moan when we have a beer about over simplification, sweeping statements, generalisation and 'toxic colons' giver her a fit of the giggles etc, etc.

Oh yes before anyone say chiropractic is unregulated etc, etc. I had physical therapy for 7 years after being blown off of the road in a jeep. The chiro fixed it in two sessions. This I hold to be true because I nolonger needed routine pain killers and i could move the shoulder. This corner I will vouch for.>:-)

Davron

[Matt]

Oh yes before anyone say chiropractic is unregulated etc, etc. I had physical therapy for 7 years after being blown off of the road in a jeep. The chiro fixed it in two sessions. This I hold to be true because I nolonger needed routine pain killers and i could move the shoulder. This corner I will vouch for.>:-)

Davron

Indeed just because Chiropractic is unregulated doesn't mean that all chiropractic practioners are loonies. It just means that loonies are allowed to call themsleve chiropractor making it very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. If you have acutllay have a problem with your spinal alignment a chiropractor may (http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/129/1/9) be able to help. The problems come when loony chiropractors start telling people that something like an inner ear infection (http://www.chirobase.org/01General/chirovisit.html) is caused by subfluxions in the spine requiring expensive repeat treatments potentially preventing necessary medical treatment.

[bindeweede]

P.S.

My apologies to whoever it was I accused of being dimwitted in their response.

Health Canada is so irritating sometimes. For several years they used to raid health food stores for melatonin supplements. They barge into your business and start searching the premises, no warrants, nothing, and threaten to close you down if you don't comply.

Then they decide it is OK. And so on with all kinds of products used as alternatives to various pharmaceuticals.

Their "side effect reports" are often just urban myths and the stories of nutters who overdose on supplements or have serious ailments that need monitoring by a relevent professionals.

It was me. No problem. I found this article yesterday. I accept it is still 3 years out of date, but it explains why Health Canada take their position.

http://www.bridgeross.com/MDCanadaMagazine.htm

In particular,

In its advisory, Health Canada said Truehope has failed to provide proof its products are safe and effective. "There are other potential risks associated with Empowerplus," department documents say.
"For example, a 'full loading dose' of 32 capsules (i.e., the dose documented by those who have studied the recommended use of the product) provides amounts of vitamins A, D and folic acid that exceed the maximum limit permitted for non-prescription use. Such high doses could cause adverse effects associated with hypervitaminosis when ingested over an extended period of time." Government documents point out the extended use of germanium, one of the components of the pills, is linked to renal failure and 31 reported deaths.Also, says Health Canada, "Empowerplus contains dl-phenylalanine (DLPA), which is a mixture of the essential amino acid L-phenylalanine and its mirror image D-phenylalanine. DLPA (or the D- or L-form alone) has been used to treat depression. This compound can affect mood and the nervous system. Therefore, DLPA should be taken only under medical supervision. Individuals taking prescription or over-the-counter medications should consult a physician before taking DLPA."

I'd be very interested to find out what the current situation is.

[mahakala]

There was a full page story in the Calgary Herald (should be archived on-line if you're interested) about it a couple of weeks ago. The daughter of the inventer has just finished a book about her experience. And the University of Calgary Medical Centre has shown interest in studying the concotion and the treatment of bi-polar with it. They do quite a bit of that now since there is a general manadate in the health care system that anything that might lower costs and improve patient outcomes needs to be considered.

[apprentice]

Thanks guys, that was fascinating. Meanwhile, on the subject of Christopher Hansard better look here:

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,25113,page=1

[Sarama]

I’m sorry, but are we actually being directed and even linked to RR Cult “Education” - I use the word loosely in this particular context
where any self-respecting skeptic can extract such gems as below;

Quoted from RR-November 19, 2007 12:29AM

Stanley Rosenman - psychoanalyst
A destructive mode of projective identification is delineated: a predator's catastrophic attack calculated to cause the victim a stress disorder marked by a disarrayed identity. This discomposure enables the perpetrator to aggrandize a manifold inroad upon the victim's identity to imprint, intrude, mingle and/or lodge his representation into it; to ravage, steal from, impoverish, and/or corrupt it; finally to have his representation emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning. The victim's debased integrity is manifest in the symptoms of his ensuing posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."

PTSD – it’s the latest and greatest buzz amongst psychoanalysts.
Everyone’s catching this bug! Seriously, YOU could be next! O0

Quoted from RR-November 19, 2007 12:29AM continued from same article

Lorin Roche - "counselor"
Finally, Lorin Roche, a counselor who has a collection of articles that can be read for FREE, wrote this:

"The blood-sucking nature of vampires is not their most dangerous trait. When feeding, they mostly want to steal your extra vitality and your money. Secondarily they want to wield power over you. You can recover from being drained, and make more money.

The truly dangerous aspect of "predators who use fangs" is their venom – it's what they inject into you.

Venom is of several types: to paralyze, as in a neurotoxin, so that you are immobilized; to predigest you, so they can devour you, and toxic waste.

'People who are oriented to feeding off others also shit into them. Gurus and spiritual leaders and others in the position of teacher build up toxic shame and guilt, which they have to get rid of by excreting into their followers or students.

'They select people to take a dump on, and they make this process look like "busting the person's ego," or "teaching them a lesson." At worst, it can take up to a year to recover from being drained, if the vampire drinks deeply. You can recover, and the worst thing is all the time you wasted.

'But if you are one of the people the vampire/guru/teacher has selected to excrete her waste products into, it can be a seven-to-ten year process to recover. For the past 30 years, I have worked with a lot of meditators who are "leaving their guru," or have just left an ashram.

'The people who have gotten dumped on have a much harder road to recovery than the people who were just drained of vitality and money. -end of quote

This sort of insanity inducing "education" is given completely FREE!
Limited one-time offer!
Restrictions may apply (make sure to read the fine print folks).
Warning: May Contain Nuts!!! :cheesy:

[apprentice]

You seem to be missing the point Sarama. The Rick Ross forum is not the issue here - it is merely a tool for people who have been conned by Christopher Hansard to come together and share their experience.

Perhaps you would like to comment on Christopher Hansard who is actually the subject of this thread. If you have no knowledge of him why not check out his claims at:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070205095524/www.bonmedicine.com/bio.htm

[Sarama]

Point taken.
On your recommendation I did some reading and either the guy’s an utter nutter as was the close company he kept or whomever wrote up his biography should take up a more lucritive vocation, such as writing children’s books (3 and under). Thus the reason he and said company have been subjected to being the focus of a cult education forum and why the company that supported him apparently somewhat venomously are now taking painstaking measures to distance themselves and deny any involvement with him?

If you’re asking me to buy into the one-man cult scenario, forget it. I have seen this type of thing shake down before, always in the same way, and it always comes down to one poor sad sod taking all the blame.

As a reader, let me explain why I remain incredulous.

Firstly, out of hundreds of Health, Medical, Complimentary and Alternative Medicine, History sources, sites and forums, the journalist who initiated the discussion chose to introduce his/her subject and begin his/her pursuit of such ‘serious research’ in an on-line cult education forum. True to journalistic form and formula, their choice of introduction already asserts to their readership that this guy’s a cult leader or in his/her own words, “a naughty boy”. In their very first posting he/she presents a deliberate slant on the story. Ah, the power of suggestion... not to mention the power of the press, and more specifically another fine example of trial by media. There goes any chance of anyone having what one would deem a fair and just trial. From what I understand it has not even come to that, or any charges for that matter, as stated by said journalist. Therefore as a reader I am not inclined to make any such judgment, not on yours or his/her recommendation at any rate. Nor will I be convinced to do so by what is so obviously a concerted effort by those clearly driven by some sort of personal vendetta and revenge. When and if charges are laid be rest assured that everyone will be called to take the stand one way or another, most especially those who have resorted to announcing their threats and intentions in such a public manner. I have to ask myself (after having sifted through some 90 pages and various websites) why they should feel the need to rail and rant in this way since the forum’s beginnings nearly 2 years ago. Why not go directly to the police? What exactly is the purpose of starting multiple forums, using multiple personalities, and starting petitions? What are the motives behind making such announcements besides the frequent mentions of slander and harassment?
http://www.uta.fi/ethicnet/uk.html

Secondly, with the exception of one or two somewhat rational (if you want to call them that) sounding avowals, some very serious accusations are proffered from behind a candy store of personalities. All except one, that being the quote: speculative comments-end quote and inquiries made by Mr. Bowes. That fact alone earns him my vote. All other descriptions of alleged activities are made from behind pseudonyms. For obvious reasons I do not have an issue with that, however given the context of such accusations, they should

1. be made directly to the police. In accordance with UK Law the police are obliged to investigate all such allegations. At the very least that means a formal interview with said man more than likely down at the station. It only takes 1 statement, and yet it is claimed there are several supposed files and statements on record. The claimant is then kept informed of all progress up until the point of said man being formally charged. http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/law.html
For those that are unfamiliar with the procedure, an officer takes your statement down during an interview. Following your statement, which can often appear like an overly casual conversation, or simple chit-chat, (this is intentional to ensure you are as relaxed as possible while making your statement after what may have been quite an ordeal) you are asked directly if you would like to press charges. Submitting a statement is a different thing entirely to pressing charges. Once you begin that process it is for all intents and purposes out of your hands and in the capable hands of the law.

2. be made to a qualified medical doctor who could possibly make a referral to a proper therapist as opposed to the witch doctors, shamans, and all sorts being endorsed on the forum. Such allegations made in the manner they have been, bring them and again their authors into question for me. That and there seems to be an equal amount of advertising and shameless self-promotion by the posters themselves in amongst the accusations which only adds to the confusion and cynicism of the readers.
It would appear that those in the alternative, new-age, spiritual healing realms are just as competitive, catty and unenlightened as the rest of us.

On a less skeptical more practical note, if any of the postings had been legitimate in any way, than the last thing anyone under such duress needed was to be stirred into a further hysterical and frenzied state and what I read in the recommended reading was just that. A sort of lunacy that was not only propagated, but encouraged by the other posters and moderators in the forum resulting in at least 70 pages of unintelligible, incomprehensible garble not unlike the earlier example I extracted from RR. Such complete and utter nonsense would undoubtedly discourage any legitimate testimony and indeed would make a mockery out of the stories of any real victims. But again I would state that any such victims would not waste their time, and energy arguing about the logistics of soul retrieval and the benefits of mayan massage... they would go to the police. Their own private shame, embarrassment and grief at having been had would drive them somewhere safe, not somewhere where they would be exposed, ridiculed, and stirred.

The irony is that many if not all the posters present themselves as compassionate, and practicing Buddhists.

I say, keep practicing.

[Sarama]

As an aside: While perusing the internet as per above recommendation I was struck by the sheer time and effort I noted was being put into initiating similarly unfavourable discussions on the very subject and attempted focus of this forum. The same quack has been initiated into various forums all over the internet. While he is enjoying quite a presence, (and public hanging) I noticed an odd absence of a poster by the name of apprentice, not only in the RR Forum but in any other forum on the subject. There could be several possible explanations for this; a) posters are signing in with an assortment of alias’s to give the false impression of masses. A definite and rather obvious no no. Please see http://www.watchingyou.com/woowoo.html b) posters are just as put off of RR as I am and for the same reasons. Please see http://www.watchingyou.com/woowoo.html c) the many links to RR that have been posted in this and many other locations are for advertising purposes to gain viewings, postings, and rankings. Please see http://www.watchingyou.com/woowoo.html.

[mahakala]

Good point about the RR site and its gimmicks. I don't think most people realise that they are marketing Rick Ross when they use that site.

But on the subject of Jeff Bowe, I have to disagree. This is a guy with a clear agenda. He is trying to win points with his Tibetan buddies by outing posers and that is why he uses his real name. After all, Tibet is his business.

A read through all the postings shows that it is Bowe who refuses to fess up to any other personal agenda, or even speak to the question. Doesn't it strike you as suspicious and even a little pathological when someone creates two websites designed specifically to criticise a small fry like Hansard, without reason, other than he thinks he is a fake. That's a lot of work and thought power for.......what payoff exactly?

Nobody has come forward with a law suit or even a clear case there was any kind of sexual abuse but Bowe is still on a Hansard hunt, pretending he cares about "abuse."

I think it is obvious that Bowe and Hansard both know each other from some past enterprise and neither will admit it because both are bastards.

[Matt]

A read through all the postings shows that it is Bowe who refuses to fess up to any other personal agenda, or even speak to the question. Doesn't it strike you as suspicious and even a little pathological when someone creates two websites designed specifically to criticise a small fry like Hansard, without reason, other than he thinks he is a fake. That's a lot of work and thought power for.......what payoff exactly?

You come here of all places to doubt that people might put time and effort into exposing frauds for no other reason than to expose frauds.

Open your eyes man.

[mahakala]

My eyes are wide open. Anyone who thinks someone spends that much time on something without a personal reason, is something more than naieve.

[Matt]

My eyes are wide open. Anyone who thinks someone spends that much time on something without a personal reason, is something more than naieve.

What's my personal reason then?

[mahakala]

Of course if you want to think you are out to save the world, maybe you could look in the mirror and ask, "for whom am I saving the world."

But make sure you have both eyes wide open so you can see the answer.

[Matt]

Of course if you want to think you are out to save the world, maybe you could look in the mirror and ask, "for whom am I saving the world."

But make sure you have both eyes wide open so you can see the answer.

I see so you're accusing Jeff Bowe of havinbg the dark ulterior motive of making the world a better place, with one less fraud, so that he can selfishly live in that better world.

The cad! The bounder! I tell you! Is there no improvement he will not inflict upon society just so that he and his family may share it!

[Cuddles]

My eyes are wide open. Anyone who thinks someone spends that much time on something without a personal reason, is something more than naieve.

So, why do you post here exactly?

[mahakala]

Ha, Ha, Ha, very funny.

As the saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions," and I might add, "the road is peopled by people on both sides of the divide."

[mahakala]

So, why do you post here exactly?

I think there is a place for sceptical enquiry and much of the subject matter discussed here needs a critical eye. But the tendency, I think, is to just wash everything that we don't understand, or is marketed foolishly, with one brush. Homeopathy is a good example. I've been using non classical homeopathy on myself and family for many years and have seen its benifit. That has been a godsend since I am allergic to some antibiotics and was getting sick from allergy medicine. Yet sceptics, because homeopathy is not understood or there is a lot of fanaticism associated with it, decide it is just bunk and therefore everyone who says no it is not is delusional. The facts is, I have way to much experience with it to have it put down to delusion.

On the subject of Hansard and Bowe, please consider this: there is not one thread of evidence or testimony that he actually abused anyone, in the legal sense of the term. Obviously he has had major interpersonal problems. But he is not a practitioner anymore, or at least so it appears. He also no longer presents himself as a bon laiku, or whatever. So does that means he doesn't have the right to sell supplements on-line, peddle his books or do seminars based on those books - in other words, make a living. At what point does the sceptic say, ok, I've done my job and this guy has cleaned up his act. Or is the sceptic really interested in completely destroying the man and his livlihood? Who has the right to do that? And as far as homeopathy goes, who has the right to claim another person's experience, regardless of how extensive it is, is all wrong?

So in sum, I am all for sceptical enquiry, but there is a point where it becomes a kind of smug, holier than thou intellectual fascism, and to that I am opposed, and of those sceptics I am very sceptical.

[filippo lippi]

FredCarr* claims that $cientology has helped him, his family and hundreds of thousands of others, yet smug, holier-than-thou, intellectual fascists decide it is just bunk.

http://www.skeptics.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=32714#post32714









*Link to Jref topic http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=104325&page=9

[Cuddles]

I think there is a place for sceptical enquiry and much of the subject matter discussed here needs a critical eye. But the tendency, I think, is to just wash everything that we don't understand, or is marketed foolishly, with one brush. Homeopathy is a good example. I've been using non classical homeopathy on myself and family for many years and have seen its benifit. That has been a godsend since I am allergic to some antibiotics and was getting sick from allergy medicine. Yet sceptics, because homeopathy is not understood or there is a lot of fanaticism associated with it, decide it is just bunk and therefore everyone who says no it is not is delusional. The facts is, I have way to much experience with it to have it put down to delusion.

Nope. We say homeopathy doesn't work because it doesn't. 200 years to come up with some evidence that it can do anything, or come up with a vaguely coherent theory and what do they have. Absolutely nothing. They can't even agree on what homeopathy is or how you should practice it. The fact is, if you think your anecdotes are evidence of anything, you do not have the slightest clue how science actually works.

[mahakala]

That is the most pathetic head up your ass response anyone could come up with.

Which is just the point.

Get a life.

Evidently, you don't give a fuck about real people and their problems or their experience.

So stop pretending you're anything more than an internet cowboy and get stuffed.

[Janot]

That was obviously Mahakala talking to himself/herself. What an idiot.

[ZERO]

That is the most pathetic head up your ass response anyone could come up with.

Which is just the point.

Get a life.

Evidently, you don't give a fuck about real people and their problems or their experience.

So stop pretending you're anything more than an internet cowboy and get stuffed.

A post of a spoiled teenager.

Don't care about real people with real problems eh? What's wrong with finding real solutions?

Do you think skeptics have any control over what's real and works and what is rubbish. They choose to find the truth and reveal quackery for what it is.
Perhaps a real person with a real problem will reap some benefit from these efforts and avoid the false, dead end hope of groundless belief.

[filippo lippi]

Evidently, you don't give a fuck about real people and their problems or their experience.



And spreading lies about the dangers of vaccines is?

Well done you.

[Mongrel]

A post of a spoiled teenager.

Nah - that's the post of someone who's run been crushed by rational arguments, next up are the cries of "Strawman!!"

[mahakala]

Nah, its the post of somebody that is stunned by the arrogant ego-maniacal ranting of a group of people who think their back of the pub expertise on a subject is reasonable, while the experience of millions of other individuals is delusional, including that of professional athletes and sports trainers, and medical professionals all around the world.

Yeah, homeopathy is a conspiracy of unimaginable proportion. Wow. I didn't know.

And believe it or not little boys and little girls, there is all kinds of things science cannot explain.

You guys would fit right in during the middle ages. Next time you come accross a homeopath throw him in the lake and see if he floats.

It really is a sign of lack of intelligence you know, when everything is perceived in black and white terms, no shades of grey, no good and bad together under the same subject line. In case you are not sure what I am talking about, I'm talking about vaccines. Anyone who is not sceptical of the pharmaceutical industry is a fool. Do the research. Real research. That doesn't mean you have to be against all vaccines. Woops, sorry, that kind of thinking is a little to sophisticated. Sorry.

You guys are pathetic. But keep up the good work. Better to keep guys like you all in the same place.

Maybe you could get a job with advertising standards. That's really the level your criticism operating at.

[ZERO]

Nah, its the post of somebody that is stunned by the arrogant ego-maniacal ranting of a group of people who think their back of the pub expertise on a subject is reasonable, while the experience of millions of other individuals is delusional, including that of professional athletes and sports trainers, and medical professionals all around the world.
And millions think the White Male is the supreme expression of humanity.
Are they right too?


Yeah, homeopathy is a conspiracy of unimaginable proportion. Wow. I didn't know. Indistinguishable from placebo effect.


And believe it or not little boys and little girls, there is all kinds of things science cannot explain.Like what? Rampant credulity?


You guys would fit right in during the middle ages. Next time you come accross a homeopath throw him in the lake and see if he floats. Oh the irony.
You have no idea what a skeptic is, do you?


It really is a sign of lack of intelligence you know, when everything is perceived in black and white terms, no shades of grey, no good and bad together under the same subject line. In case you are not sure what I am talking about, I'm talking about vaccines. Anyone who is not sceptical of the pharmaceutical industry is a fool.Correct. They are big business out to make a profit.


Do the research. Real research. That doesn't mean you have to be against all vaccines.Correct again. My children received all their shots. Thank you pharmaceutical industry.


You guys are pathetic. But keep up the good work. Better to keep guys like you all in the same place.

Maybe you could get a job with advertising standards. That's really the level your criticism operating at.::)

[DrS]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a vaccine have an active ingredient?

[Mongrel]

[QUOTE=mahakala;32886]And believe it or not little boys and little girls, there is all kinds of things science cannot explain./QUOTE]

Science generally can explain it, "It's bollox" and "People are idiots". You just don't want to hear that answer:smiley:

[Cuddles]

So stop pretending you're anything more than an internet cowboy and get stuffed.

There are no cows on the internet. The keys are too small for their hooves to handle.

[mahakala]

By by you all.

The sound you hear is me vomiting in my beer.

Hope you grow up soon.

[DrS]

Bye bye. Maybe you'll decide to return when you've sobered up ... or maybe you'll be able to think straight then, anyway. O0

[Janot]

The sound you hear is me vomiting in my beer.

Hope you grow up soon.Why does this idiot talk to himself/herself all the time?

[Mongrel]

Why does this idiot talk to himself/herself all the time?
Attention whoring and the need to have the last word

[Sarama]

Skepticism is a method of assessing claims. It is a form of critical inquiry which can be used positively: in business; by consumers; in the defence against being defrauded or scammed; as an intellectual exercise; and in increasing one's knowledge and awareness of reality in general.

The idea is to look beyond claims, beliefs and opinions, which are often accepted at face value, and look at whether the evidence actually supports such claims. This approach also makes skepticism a valuable thinking tool where opposing or contradictory claims are made for the same issue.

For an overview of skepticism see: What is Skepticism?
http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=what_is_skepticism.php

By all definitions Bowes is a skeptic, he appears to have no personal agenda, other than questioning Hansard and his closely knit now self promoting crew. Bowes asks all the right questions, and is willing to stand by them.

Sorry mahakala, Bowes still gets my vote.
Enjoy your pint!

[mahakala]

Yes I understand your pint, I mean point ;).
My concern is this: a number of people have suggested to me that Bowe had a previous association with Hansard and until Bowe confirms or denies that - he has done neither and refuses to address the issue - I remain SCEPTICAL of his motives.

[mahakala]

Mr. Bowe has now formally stated that he had no past association with Hansard. Given that he is telling the truth, I thank him for responding to that concern. I also notice that he recognizes the shamanic traditition of the Himalayas and Siberia and that there is often a tendency to associate that with the Bon religion. Although Bowe says there is no connection, that is in fact debateable. I would agree with him that there is little relationship between Bon as it is currently understood and the distant past of Asian shamanism. Whether there is a distant intersection, however, nobody can say, not even Bowe. If you study Shamanism you will see that there are several different traditions and as far as anyone can tell they all pre-date religion as we currently know it.

[Julia]

I thought you'd gone for good?

[mahakala]

I'm really in another time and place and just peeking in at my old haunts. You don't mind really do you?

[seren]

If you study Shamanism

I did! At University. Very interesting too.

I wss kind of sorry when you said you weren't coming back. You're belligerent and intelligent. That's about 50% of the criteria for posting on here. If you'd just drop the homeopathy bit... ;)

[mahakala]

"I did! At University. Very interesting too."

Care to say more about what you studied?



"If you'd just drop the homeopathy bit"

Alas, that I cannot promise. Although there is a lot of hocus pocus associated with homeopathy, and two hundred years of mechanistic science debunking it, it's continued existance is a finger pointing to avenues of scientific exploration we as a culture have only begun to explore.

[Mongrel]

" Although there is a lot of hocus pocus associated with homeopathy, and two hundred years of mechanistic science debunking it, it's continued existance is a finger pointing to avenues of scientific exploration we as a culture have only begun to explore. human gullibility and quacks after a quick buck

Fixed that for you O0

[mahakala]

My sympathies for your short sightedness.

[Mongrel]

My sympathies for your short sightedness.

Don't worry I have some very nice prescription glasses :smiley:

[mariac]

Hello

I am new to this site- in fact I stumbled along the thread looking for some info on CH. Ive been a client/patient for some time. In that time I believe that he has an amazing power- I have seen amazing changes in my life and he has been supportive and caring. However I would add that at time he crosses that line in what he says, how he touches or looks at me even.I sometimes think is it me? is it pure transference? And then at other times, when I see how he is around me when others are around- I see a change in him and I think well perhaps it is not all me. Really I am shocked to learn he was an actor?? What happened to the story of the monk and the rainbow and being trained for years and years? I do feel though that sometimes there are things/people we cannot explain. CH has this ability to morph into different personalities and ways of being. Does that make him psychotic? Or does that make him other wordly? I dont know. I know that I have a very strong 6th sense about people and places....and I "felt" at Eden that there was a good energy that went bad.I always had a feeling stephanie had feelings for him, I always felt CH was not faithful to his family and always felt he was a man fighting with his own demons. There were times when he was cruel and said cruel things-these only made me see what i was saying to myself really....and he never treated me in a way that wasnt safe and caring. But I am concerned....I did always have the feeling I was being "groomed" and from the other website- rick ross.....I hear he has ways of working on someone...there have been times he has said things that made me think he had a relationship in mind.....I would really like to hear from anyone who would have anything to offer, any insight. Was I a fool? Did I waste my time and money I didnt have? Thankyou

[mariac]

Hello

I am new to this site- in fact I stumbled along the thread looking for some info on CH. Ive been a client/patient for some time. In that time I believe that he has an amazing power- I have seen amazing changes in my life and he has been supportive and caring. However I would add that at time he crosses that line in what he says, how he touches or looks at me even.I sometimes think is it me? is it pure transference? And then at other times, when I see how he is around me when others are around- I see a change in him and I think well perhaps it is not all me. Really I am shocked to learn he was an actor?? What happened to the story of the monk and the rainbow and being trained for years and years? I do feel though that sometimes there are things/people we cannot explain. CH has this ability to morph into different personalities and ways of being. Does that make him psychotic? Or does that make him other wordly? I dont know. I know that I have a very strong 6th sense about people and places....and I "felt" at Eden that there was a good energy that went bad.I always had a feeling stephanie had feelings for him, I always felt CH was not faithful to his family and always felt he was a man fighting with his own demons. There were times when he was cruel and said cruel things-these only made me see what i was saying to myself really....and he never treated me in a way that wasnt safe and caring. But I am concerned....I did always have the feeling I was being "groomed" and from the other website- rick ross.....I hear he has ways of working on someone...there have been times he has said things that made me think he had a relationship in mind.....I would really like to hear from anyone who would have anything to offer, any insight. Was I a fool? Did I waste my time and money I didnt have? Thankyou

[davron]

Back again after a while, I see the knives are out on both sides about Flying Saucer Man and the Pizza Guru.

If you read Rick Ross you will notice several people have mentioned that the Pizza and the Saucer knew each other and may have been involved in a financial venture of some kind.

Flying Saucer Man never ever responds to this.... interesting!:-X I see that FSM has laid accusations at the door of a company who have nothing to do with PG, yet he has not responded to the very open and clear posting.

Its clear that FSM does have an agenda as does PG. I wonder which one is the more honest? FSM works on the principle of 'kill 'em all and let Jehova sort them out', a principle we have been using for a long time and all it manages to achive is drive your friends and allies away.

From a good start to a bad ending.

Davron (no vomit or beer was involved with this posting)O0

[Sarama]

Hello

I am new to this site- in fact I stumbled along the thread looking for some info on CH. Ive been a client/patient for some time. In that time I believe that he has an amazing power- I have seen amazing changes in my life and he has been supportive and caring. However I would add that at time he crosses that line in what he says, how he touches or looks at me even.I sometimes think is it me? is it pure transference? And then at other times, when I see how he is around me when others are around- I see a change in him and I think well perhaps it is not all me. Really I am shocked to learn he was an actor?? What happened to the story of the monk and the rainbow and being trained for years and years? I do feel though that sometimes there are things/people we cannot explain. CH has this ability to morph into different personalities and ways of being. Does that make him psychotic? Or does that make him other wordly? I dont know. I know that I have a very strong 6th sense about people and places....and I "felt" at Eden that there was a good energy that went bad.I always had a feeling stephanie had feelings for him, I always felt CH was not faithful to his family and always felt he was a man fighting with his own demons. There were times when he was cruel and said cruel things-these only made me see what i was saying to myself really....and he never treated me in a way that wasnt safe and caring. But I am concerned....I did always have the feeling I was being "groomed" and from the other website- rick ross.....I hear he has ways of working on someone...there have been times he has said things that made me think he had a relationship in mind.....I would really like to hear from anyone who would have anything to offer, any insight. Was I a fool? Did I waste my time and money I didnt have? Thankyou

Hello Davron, nice to see you again! I've always enjoyed your balanced and humourous points of view sans beer and vomit of course.

mariac, I think you will find a very different conversation takes place once you leave the sanctity or insanity rather of the RR "educational forum", unless of course some of the same mob frequents here, which they have indeed been known to do from time to time on their way to tend their flocks of chatrooms, forums, and poster sites around the internet.

Personally mariac, I do not see that there is any side to take in this situation. If your practitioner has broken the law then let the process of the law take place. If you need to initiate that process then do so. On another posters recommendation I visited and read through the then 90 odd (and "odd" is an understatement) pages on RR, and I watched many patterns taking place. Your own as a patient entering the site with concerns can be observed many times as a matter of course as can the ferocity in which they are pummeled by the mob.

Transference as you refer to it happens, unfortunately it happens all too often. The sad thing is that we have put laws in place to deal with the consequences and aftermath, but neither the general public nor the practitioners themselves are any more educated on the subject. You are unfortunately an exception. Furthermore, no one wants to talk about it. You refer to your own feelings as transference, and you seem to recognise this, however when your practitioner crosses that boundary or line it is what is known as counter-transference. I am not here to talk you out of what you may have experienced, however I am also not going to try to persuade you that your experience was something that it was not, something "special" that only a Mayan Abdominal or apparently Cranial Therapist, Lightworker, Intuitive Healer, or some other such is "specially trained to help you with". This is something I have witnessed being both bought and sold on RR too many times already and these are simply people cashing in on a sad situation. If you are going to speak to someone, speak to someone who has nothing to gain from this, whether it is your attention, their own reputation, or your pocket book. Speak with someone who has both feet planted firmly in reality and who is completely outside of the situation, has never even heard of this gent nor has ever had anything to do with him. Stop talking about aura's and energy, just for one second, just long enough for you to gain some real insight and grounded understanding of the situation, just long enough to hear your own voice, and do not let anyone feed into these beliefs either just so they can take advantage of the situation and at the end of the day to satisfy, or validate their own beliefs or worse yet, to justify their own actions.

A patient, practitioner, or even former friend finds themselves in RR, and it takes as little as one query to find themselves being bombarded with private messaging and tales of horror from behind the scenes. It absolutely bewilders me how many ex-girlfriends have entered the soiree from well over 30 years ago. Bad relationships perhaps, bad endings, but why air out your dirty laundry and try to pass off a bad break-up or even an affair as a crime?
Former friends from teenage years that still have completely unchanged perspectives though their opinions burgeoned at the age of 17 or 21. Former acquaintances that have not even spoken or seen the man in going on 10 years, but keenly believe every bit of gossip and rumour that comes to them, and all seem to surmise that people get worse as opposed to better with time, or are even capable of change. Who is to say that this gent has not sought out help recently or in the last 20 years? Obviously not them, it is evident that none of them have made contact, spoke with, or even met their quarry and that is what troubles me most as a reader.

- stay tuned, there is more to come -

[Sarama]

mariac, you summed it up in fact when you said the following on RR quite recently "Some posts are not posted by the moderator, thats an odd thing. I would like this posted though as it affects the people who are writing to me. I am not a patient anymore. I was. And what I said still stands. Its important that we have a distinction between his time at Eden, his behaviour last year and his behaviour now. Like the wayishere says, thats the only way we will get a balanced picture. So please mr/mrs/ms moderator post this as its important to make those distinctions. Thank you again. With Peace and Light."

Some posts are simply not posted at all or are "edited" by the moderators in RR for a bias or for publicity and rankings, period. I have not seen that happen in other forums.

If there is anything I could offer it would be to question your experience, but do not let others taint YOUR experience or worse yet, tell you what your experience was. - I just know I am going to get jolted for this one, knowing that there is an angry mob behind much of this, - but I have followed this story now as well as many other similar, and what is going on is just wrong at this point. Not one of these people have actually approached this gent, they have just done as you have done, which is wandered into a site full of pseudonyms, taken what was offered and ran with it. However there is no where to run with it as they seem to be finding out and this only serves to anger them more it would seem. Meanwhile in Victoria, your practitioner is hopefully getting help, whether that be medical professional, psychological help, or a lawyer, as this has thankfully been brought to his attention, and he is in all likelihood moving on with his life. Hopefully not in the same direction, but unless we are in direct contact, who are we to say?
I just do not see many sane, balanced views. I see a lot of personal issues that have been carried over many years and a seemingly needless incitement to hate, little more. As the latest poster said while rallying the troops "we all want CH gone! He is still in Victoria doing what he has always done." As I reader I question what are their real reasons for wanting this person "gone" so badly, what exactly does that mean while we're at it, and how would they know if he is "doing what he has always done" or if he has started a new career as an interior decorator? Which by the way and without any insensitivity to your own situation mariac, if you happen to have any contact with this gent, you may just want to suggest he begin looking into alternative careers, and leave the Alternative healing one far behind him.

As I said in a previous posting, it only takes 1 legitimate complaint to the Metro Police or as they have been doling out, the Sapphire Unit to initiate an investigation. ALL, not just some complaints are investigated. Believe me, they do take these things seriously. Go down to your local station and discuss the process with them if you want to know. Stop taking other peoples words for it.

The problem here is that obviously many of these complaints were not made at all, or were quite simply not true in the first place. There may have even been an investigation already, there may be one on going right now. Please tell me that they do not expect Constable Jim to login to RR and keep them diligently informed as to the progress on this particularly important case!
There appear to be many unanswered questions, and this has been going on for so long now that it brings only more questions up for some. My one question would coincide with a point that you brought up in your own posting which is that it is important that a distinction be made from when your practitioner started, to where he is now in his career. Not one of those posters seem to have had any contact with the focus of so much of their attention and anger since the controversy was created nearly 2 years ago.

However I think it is far more important that we address some of your own questions here such as "grooming". I have seen this word overused and misused primarily on RR. Traditionally "grooming" was a term applied to pedophiles, not adults. I believe it is called courting, flirting, wining and dining and what have you when applied to adults, and we are speaking about adults here are we not? In this instance however it is important that if you felt your practitioner was flirting with you, or making advances of any sort, if you felt uncomfortable in any way, than the above terms change to what is known as counter-transference and that is a fairly clear indication of your practitioner perhaps needing a practitioner of their own. The solution however is simple, you confront your practitioner, and tell them to stop or you stop going. This of course gets murky when you find yourself having feelings as well because you will be less likely to stop it, and then of course any guilt surrounding these feelings will compound the issue, allowing the inappropriate behaviour, - and it is most certainly inappropriate, - to either continue or even progress. What is important is that you recognised the initial transference process, and despite this, you recognised that his own behaviour and any reciprocation was wrong.
You got in, you received treatment that apparently helped you, and if what you are saying is true, you got out.

still more...

[Sarama]

My greatest problem with all of this, and not just this situation, but all situations like this, is who told us that when we step into a doctors office, a dentists office, teachers office, our lawyers office or otherwise, who told us that when they tell us to take off our shirts that we have to listen? That we can not make decisions of our own? That we have no right to question their supposed authority and instruction? Or that we can not request a chaperone? Who told us, or how did we get it into our heads as women (or men) that when we walk into anyone's office that not only do we have to take off our shirts as requested, we also have to strip ourselves of any personal responsibility, we have to strip ourselves of our own personal power?

For me the answer is simple. We do not.

At what point do we say to ourselves, - as in this situation - this man is married, this man has a relationship, I have a relationship, I am married, whether or not their relationships are in jeopardy is none of our business, nor should it be made our business by our practitioners. In some cases we may even be paying them to find solutions to our relationship queries. Whatever the case, these are all OUR own morale check points we are barreling through. Why?
At what point do we say to ourselves he is my practitioner and it is their duty to find helpful and healthful solutions for me, in short it his duty to show care, he is my teacher and it is their job to impart their knowledge to me, nothing more. As patients or students, customers or clients we may feel that we can tell this person things that we can not tell other people, we may naturally be drawn to them, that is indeed why we find ourselves on their doorsteps, we may feel indebted to them, but we need to start recognising this for what it is at this point, not fooling ourselves into believing it is 'love', nor allowing them to convince us of this either. That said, I tend to disagree with anyone who tells me I can be convinced of anything that I do not want to be convinced of and this returns me to my own initial query which is;
Who told us, or how did we get it into our heads that when we walk into anyone's office that we have to strip ourselves of own personal power?

Sarama, out

[davron]

Well, what can you say when confronted by such anger and poor site control. If you read the site, not just Pizza Guru, its clear that sensationalist views are the food and drink of the Rick Ross site.

Those who respond to the questions are damed more than those who dont. Its the old 'witch drowning' all over again. If you float when being thrown in the mill pond ie answer- you are guilty. If you drown ie allow them to accuse you of guilt and admit by silence to all crimes they accuse you of, you die instead.:undecided:

I wonder what Rick Ross gets out of all of this, money, chat shows, being an expert?::)

I know lets invent a cult, make a posting and see how many people share their experiances of it. An interesting experiment as it may give us an idea of how much of the Rick Ross site is pure fantasy.

I suggest the Mount Zion Temple of Om. Anyone have any other thoughts?

Davron

[davron]

Mariac

The honest and open nature of your postings has made me look at the Rick Ross forum once again.

There are many claims about the malign and inappropriate deeds that Hansard has committed with clients and against other people in general. It is clear given the body of statement that he has been a nightmare to be around and acted very inappropriately towards clients. What is also evident is that anyone who disagrees with the common body of opinion is shouted down and harassed, to the extent that all of his supporters and all the voices of reason have been drowned out by the loudest voices.

In the 60s American universities conducted a number of psychological experiments. These experiments are now common knowledge and have entered folk history.

One consisted of inviting people in from the street and asking them to twist a dial which was marked from 1 to 10, beyond 10 was highlighted in red with the words caution and extreme danger. Every time they turned the dial up one notch a scream could be heard from behind a locked door. When they turned the dial in to the caution and extreme danger the screams stopped. They were all encouraged to turn the knob up into the caution and danger areas. Only one person refused they did this because people around them kept saying it's okay, it's okay. The test was merely to find out whether people would say no in situations where the crowd said yes.

The second experiment consisted of a crowd of students being asked to compare a series of horizontal bars projected onto a screen. It was something a bit like a bar chart. Of the 12 students ten had been pre-primed to say bar number one was longer than bar number two. This experiment and trick was played to the students time and time again until two students who were not part of the team began to copy the others and say that bar two was larger than bar one.

You can observe this phenomena in action on the Rick Ross site. The fever generated by the postings and the hammering away at those who have different opinions forces those who are posting either to agree or abandoned the cause. A person who started the initial postings has been driven away, as have many of the people who work to produce evidence against Hansard. The mob mentality led by a few very strident voices have driven away voice of reason and the evidence.

On top of this we now have people claiming their five minutes of fame from Hansard's past. A typical posting would be ‘ when we were both eight he stole my ice cream, and kicked my teddy bear’. This as everybody knows is absolute proof of a bad boy in the making. ‘ He was a nightmare boyfriend had tried to have sex with me in the back of a car!’ What male under the age of 30 is not a nightmare to be around? If he had not tried to have sex the statement would be ‘ he was a nightmare boyfriend and refused to have sex with in the back of a car, he is definitely gay!’

Do not allow yourself to be swayed by mass hysteria.


Davron (this auto typing programme is pretty cool stuff)8)

[Sarama]

Now see? There you go again being all rational and giving some sound view points.

Hansard would be much safer in police custody than at the hands of the Ricky mob that's for sure.

But are you so sure we should create our own cult Davron? Are you sure we even have to? I googled your suggestion of "Mount Zion Temple of Om" and actually got some pretty uncanny close results.

Scary!

Sarama

[davron]

Sarama,

that is so funny I am a Guru with psychic powers! Now all I need is a high stakes poker game and I feel my investment fund building. Nope better still, I am a Guru send me cash and it will make you feel better. Cant say plainer than that.

Davron

[Sarama]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically sensitive here, and not mention any names but

"I know I had had and still do have a really rough time away from him. I feel psychically attacked and drained and my mind feels all foggy. My heart races and my stomach gets in knots. Its horrible. If anyone knows a way to rid oneself of his energy that seems to have latched onto me? Sometimes I just feel like I am going crazy and wish his energy would go away."

That's because you are going crazy, and not getting the proper support and help. That much is evident by letting yourself be convinced that anyone's "energy" can "latch" itself onto you.

That is the latest offering from the "Cult Education Cult". It's somewhat startling how many similarities each forum in and of itself has with the “official” description and definition of a cult, and how many cult leader personality types there are in every discussion.

Sadly, and I mean that sincerely, it seems that once again mass insanity reigns supreme. As I said, meanwhile in Victoria? Westminster? Somewhere in London, Hansard is "doing what he has always done" and is probably getting on with his life, though apparently not without his dutiful followers. While somewhere else in London I presume an angry mad mob convinces one another that his "energy" still lingers on them somehow, and that they can't live without him? Furthermore they are being psychically attacked? What the $#@%

Are we talking about Vulcan mind control or Laser therapy? I'm confused. I think I may have upped Bindeweede on weird and wonderful. That site is an absolute goldmine! These people are actually writing testimonials for people like Elizabeth Francis multi-skilled and gifted lightworker, Gary Mannion, Indigo Child and Psychic Surgeon, and Sally Morgan: Star Psychic!

:shocked:

Someone please lock him up for his own protection!
It's safer on the inside!

[Sarama]

Sarama,

that is so funny I am a Guru with psychic powers! Now all I need is a high stakes poker game and I feel my investment fund building. Nope better still, I am a Guru send me cash and it will make you feel better. Cant say plainer than that.

Davron

I think I may have found your target market. :wnw:

[davron]

Sadly I see this everyday, people on boths sides of a wall throwing bombs and stones at each other. Thinking thats its 'others' doing it to them and if only the 'others' would go away, admit guilt, stop doing it back etc, etc then life would be prefect.

If you look once again the voices of reason are being drowned out. I would like to emigrate to some where warm and sunny where there is no chaos trouble is, rest of humanity has already got there first.


So Sarama, fancy the job of chief accolyte? All you have to do is count the cash and recruit the blondes for my bodouir. In return you get a monthly mercedes allowance and the ability abuse anyone you want... sounds like a job for an established politician. Funny who we allow or elect to have power over us. What is it in human nature, pack instinct?, alpha male/female?, that allows us to let people gain a foot hold in our lives. Humanity is a sad old case.

So if you fancy worshiping a fat(ish) man with a balding spot who has nasty personal habits. I am your man, how can you resist!;)

Davron

[davron]

'Curiouser and curiouser!' cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English). I wish I could write and speak English like Lewis Carroll, the man was a genius.

It would appear that the Flying Saucer Man is indulging in some form of chicanery. He has removed all replies and comments from his blogs and websites from CF whom he has been pillorying for last week, making it seem that no point has CF responded to any of the accusations. I am reminded of a line from an AC DC track ' dirty deeds, done dead cheap'.

It would appear that once Flying Saucer Man has been challenged and adequate response has been given, his only method debate is one of remodelling the truth to fit his own personal standards. Oh and let us not forget the time honoured political principle remodelling the truth. ;)

When I first came across this I said that the Pizza Guru and the Flying Saucer Man deserved each other, and that they ought to be locked up in a room and the entire event televised. I am now, by the very devious actions of the Flying Saucer Man, forced to reconsider my views about Pizza Guru, and that hurts.:'(

It would appear from all postings that the Pizza Guru Is a fairly unsavoury character. But what is now apparent Is that the Flying Saucer Man Is equally as unsavoury.

Davron

[Sarama]

Sadly I see this everyday, people on boths sides of a wall throwing bombs and stones at each other. Thinking thats its 'others' doing it to them and if only the 'others' would go away, admit guilt, stop doing it back etc, etc then life would be prefect.

So Sarama, fancy the job of chief accolyte? All you have to do is count the cash and recruit the blondes for my bodouir. In return you get a monthly mercedes allowance and the ability abuse anyone you want... sounds like a job for an established politician. Funny who we allow or elect to have power over us. What is it in human nature, pack instinct?, alpha male/female?, that allows us to let people gain a foot hold in our lives. Humanity is a sad old case.

So if you fancy worshiping a fat(ish) man with a balding spot who has nasty personal habits. I am your man, how can you resist!;)

Davron

Being in Israel, I guess you really would see this everyday, up close and personal. :-[

I'm afraid I would make a terrible acolyte Davron, sorry. Apparently I am not much of a follower. I am thinking this sort of behaviour is much more aligned with flock instinct as the well documented experiments you brought up in an earlier posting demonstrate. baaa!

S

[davron]

Famous again!

Interestingly the debate is now splitting into those who want to see the law investigate and those who want to just destroy.

There have been a couple of court cases here where excult members have tried to sue the cult. The members got so angry that they lost focus. In the end there were so many accusations against so may people they lost the case and it cost them a fortune.

Remember the old joke about alligators and swamps!

Davron

[davron]

Ha!

They have taken the most interesting and pointed thread down, Rick Ross is holding hands with the 'Flying Saucer Man'.
I always knew it Rick Ross Forum is a cult if you read the definitions they they conform pretty much as a group to the definitions. They are an internet cult. Baaaaa!

Davron

Of for a swim in the warm blue sea.:smiley:

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

.... that only a Mayan Abdominal or apparently Cranial Therapist, Lightworker, Intuitive Healer, or some other such is "specially trained to help you with".



Just out of interest, how do you know about Maya Abdominal Massage?

[mahakala]

Hello

I am new to this site- in fact I stumbled along the thread looking for some info on CH. Ive been a client/patient for some time. In that time I believe that he has an amazing power- I have seen amazing changes in my life and he has been supportive and caring. However I would add that at time he crosses that line in what he says, how he touches or looks at me even.I sometimes think is it me? is it pure transference? And then at other times, when I see how he is around me when others are around- I see a change in him and I think well perhaps it is not all me. Really I am shocked to learn he was an actor?? What happened to the story of the monk and the rainbow and being trained for years and years? I do feel though that sometimes there are things/people we cannot explain. CH has this ability to morph into different personalities and ways of being. Does that make him psychotic? Or does that make him other wordly? I dont know. I know that I have a very strong 6th sense about people and places....and I "felt" at Eden that there was a good energy that went bad.I always had a feeling stephanie had feelings for him, I always felt CH was not faithful to his family and always felt he was a man fighting with his own demons. There were times when he was cruel and said cruel things-these only made me see what i was saying to myself really....and he never treated me in a way that wasnt safe and caring. But I am concerned....I did always have the feeling I was being "groomed" and from the other website- rick ross.....I hear he has ways of working on someone...there have been times he has said things that made me think he had a relationship in mind.....I would really like to hear from anyone who would have anything to offer, any insight. Was I a fool? Did I waste my time and money I didnt have? Thankyou


Hansard was sleeping with Ms. Wright, while married. When Eden fell apart he had a girl friend while at the same time he slept with about a dozen different women. I was tracking it, as people told me, and lost count. He has always been known as a philanderer.

Obviously he has some kind of sexual addiction which seems to have overwhelmed his usefulness to the world. That boundary problem also extends to other areas.

[Sarama]

Just out of interest, how do you know about Maya Abdominal Massage?

Hiya Neuro,

I was referred to their site and practitioner listings by another poster.
Being a faithful skeptic I read and did some research in to this and other "healing" modalities that were taking the opportunity to offer their services and shamelessly advertise themselves in another forum.

Clients had obviously been let down and were scornfully disappointed with one practitioner and in swarmed the next round of "healers" to sell their trade and pick up where the last one had left off.
Some of the suggestions offered were even "Soul Retrieval" if you can believe?

Perhaps one day we can address it more fully here and it might just be a very good idea for a future topic of conversation now that you mention it.

For the time being I merely brought it up to demonstrate how it was being used on another site by some of it's more obvious enthusiasts to endorse themselves.
They were not the only ones who were taking advantage of the situation however as I said.
:ponder:
S

[davron]

Hansard was sleeping with Ms. Wright, while married. When Eden fell apart he had a girl friend while at the same time he slept with about a dozen different women. I was tracking it, as people told me, and lost count.

How can you be so sure? Rick Ross is a mob rule site. They ban anyone who doubts the offical line. Pizza Guru is a fairly nasty person by all accounts but that does not make all rumours true! The same goes for Flying Saucer Man. If he was that attractive to women there was probably a lot of competition for his 'favours'. Do not rule out the possibility of off grapes.

Davron

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

Hi Sarama,

That is interesting.

I am a Physical Therapist and Sports Massage therapist based in the States and it is very well known over here. There are a lot of practitioners.

[Sarama]

Hi Sarama,

That is interesting.

I am a Physical Therapist and Sports Massage therapist based in the States and it is very well known over here. There are a lot of practitioners.

Now I am interested. What is your take?

Can a massage technique learned from a Shaman in South America heal some very serious psychological issues? What appears to be a broken heart? An apparent affair gone wrong? A woman scorned?

Have you read mariac's posting? Would it heal her? Or how about naina, an ex-girlfriend from over 30 years ago?

davron's right (as usual), and mahakala may have a point as well.
Rick's mob is just that, a mob, it is fairly obvious by now that they are not credible sources of truth or reality by some accounts, and as I pointed out many are merely there to cash in on the now ex-patients and livelihood that I have no doubt Guru Guy has lost by having his name plastered all over the internet by a revolving door of pseudonyms. Guru Guy has by all accounts pissed off the wrong woman, or as mahakala has offered, many.

So how is Maya or Mayan Massage deemed State side?

[mahakala]

Hansard was sleeping with Ms. Wright, while married. When Eden fell apart he had a girl friend while at the same time he slept with about a dozen different women. I was tracking it, as people told me, and lost count.

How can you be so sure? Rick Ross is a mob rule site. They ban anyone who doubts the offical line. Pizza Guru is a fairly nasty person by all accounts but that does not make all rumours true! The same goes for Flying Saucer Man. If he was that attractive to women there was probably a lot of competition for his 'favours'. Do not rule out the possibility of off grapes.

Davron

That was the word on the street, from the people who actually know him, not the RR mob. Since he was running a bit of a cult, there probably was competition for his "favours." Still, as a health-care practitioner, teacher and married man, boundaries are supposed to trump the pain and suffering that ultimately results from endless exploitation of one and another's libido.

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

Now I am interested. What is your take?

Can a massage technique learned from a Shaman in South America heal some very serious psychological issues? What appears to be a broken heart? An apparent affair gone wrong? A woman scorned?

So how is Maya or Mayan Massage deemed State side?


Maya Abdominal Massage is well thought of over here, as there are lots of practitioners in all states in the US. Worldwide, there is not much knowledge of it, as it originally came from Belize to the States and is only just becoming known in other countries.

Having read a lot more information about it now, I don't think that the initial aim of the massage itself is to heal serious psychological problems. You need to be careful here to separate out the massage element from the Spiritual healing and its the Spiritual healing that comes from the Mayan Shamanic culture.

From what I have read, Rosita Arvigo apprenticed with a Maya Shaman for 10 years, but then formalised the massage part of the treatment from an anatomical and physiological perspective. Think she came from a massage/naturopathic background, I believe.

Having read about it, I think the abdominal massage part can have great benefits for everyone. Just not sure about the Spiritual healing part though!

From my own perspective and practice, I do a lot of work with clients on the abdomen and it does have real benefits. Before I treat, I look at posture to assess this and a lot of times, will want to do some work on the psoas, which is a deep abdominal muscle that links the top to the bottom of the body. I do a lot of work around the upper abdomen and rib cage to release here and will then go down to the psoas, which can be tight on lots of people due to poor posture etc. Once all this is released, people stand taller, can breathe more fully and mostly, have a greater sense of ease.

When I work on the belly, people do sometimes have emotional reactions. The psoas is commonly known as the emotional garbage dump. Mostly, people are very protective of this area being the very centre of the body, so yes, emotions can get locked in this area and when touched and massaged/worked on in this area, emotions can surface. I guess I just stick with it and let it happen and it passes. If people want to talk, then I let them and will be supportive, but if I feel there are deeper issues, then I think about possibly referring them to a Psychologist with more specific training who can help them.

From my own experience, I would say that the abdominal massage is a valid treatment. Just not sure about the Spiritual healing part though.

[davron]

Sounds a bit like I thought, 'off, bad (?) grapes'. The problem about the word on the street is that it is not truth, its rumour.

Rick Ross runs on the 'word on the street'. That means a lot of people get harmed by a klatch of people just making up stories so it makes it look as though they have inside knowlege.

So I would say its better to be a skeptic than a member of the flock! O0

Yep Guru is nasty, Flying Saucer Man is nasty as well. But the victims of both of them deserve a little more of the 'yo, respect brother' than just a reworking or rumour. Flying Saucer Man just keeps repeating the same stuff as 'fact', even though he is the one who made it all up. I have seen his stuff in the UFO mags from the 80's (we have a lot sightings over here, we also have people who brew alcohol that makes you go blind the two may be related).

In the end there is what the masses want you to belive and that which is true. How many of Pizza Gurus students were willing to 'serve the master as hand maidens'?

Ask that question first.

Davron

[davron]

'What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth'.


Old Jewish Saying


Davron

[apprentice]

Davron says:

‘a lot of people get harmed by a klatch of people just making up stories so it makes it look as though they have inside knowlege.’

Davron says of Jeff Bowe:

‘Flying Saucer Man just keeps repeating the same stuff as 'fact', even though he is the one who made it all up. I have seen his stuff in the UFO mags from the 80's…’


Now Davron, are you sure you are not just making this up?

[mahakala]

Davron says:

‘a lot of people get harmed by a klatch of people just making up stories so it makes it look as though they have inside knowlege.’

Davron says of Jeff Bowe:

‘Flying Saucer Man just keeps repeating the same stuff as 'fact', even though he is the one who made it all up. I have seen his stuff in the UFO mags from the 80's…’




Which stuff is flying saucer man making up? And which stuff are people making up in order to appear like they have inside information? Are you drawing these assumptions soley from a reading of the RR site and thus now guilty of the same crime you accuse them of?

[davron]

I am glad to see you have gained a skeptical head. O0

Its common among cults with a 'master' for competion for the masters favours. Brigham Youngs wives would have a symbol chalked on the door of their room if he was going to sleep with them that night. The others would sneak out and rub it off and place it on their own. Some of them formed groups so they could get him between them.

Flying Saucer Man has made several statments which he has repeated a lot, which if you bother to reserch them are just plain not true, but he keeps banging away. If you use a 'web spider' you will find the references ( a web spider searches all of the internet not just Yahoo). Check the things he has stated as facts.

But, his 'facts' are rapidly evaporating as edits down is blogs and websites.:cheesy:

Enjoy the sun

Davron

[apprentice]

Hello Davron, enjoy the hot air.

[Sarama]

From what I have read, Rosita Arvigo apprenticed with a Maya Shaman for 10 years, but then formalised the massage part of the treatment from an anatomical and physiological perspective. Think she came from a massage/naturopathic background, I believe.

Having read about it, I think the abdominal massage part can have great benefits for everyone. Just not sure about the Spiritual healing part though!

I would say that the abdominal massage is a valid treatment. Just not sure about the Spiritual healing part though.

You think, or you know?

You are a sports massage therapist, and have no doubt invested a lot of time and money in to your trade, therefore you will feel the need to defend other similar modalities and treatments. You were also a nurse from what I understand for many years, however I'm sure you will agree that when a massage is mixed with such Spiritual claims like those you have alluded to it becomes something entirely different. In this situation it has become dangerous.

[Sarama]

Just as another matter of interest, if you follow the trail of names being mentioned from RR, JB's and of course the constant reference to CH's own archived sites, you will find that some of Pizza Guru's "apprentices" low and behold are now practicing Maya Abdominal Massage.

While I will refrain from jumping to the more irrational often erroneous conclusions, it certainly does seem a rather uncanny coincidence that the very practice was being advertised on RR in the wake of what the petition referred to as their "dismissal".

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

You think, or you know?

You are a sports massage therapist, and have no doubt invested a lot of time and money in to your trade, therefore you will feel the need to defend other similar modalities and treatments. You were also a nurse from what I understand for many years, however I'm sure you will agree that when a massage is mixed with such Spiritual claims like those you have alluded to it becomes something entirely different. In this situation it has become dangerous.


I am a Physical Therapist and a Sports Massage Therapist and yes, I used to be an RN, but decided to go and retrain in physical therapy and sports massage so I could do more work with clients involved in sports and athletes.

As for what I said about Rosita Arvigo, I went and looked at the website and it is stated on her website/the website of the Arvigo Institute.

I am not trying to defend anything. Physical therapy and sports massage are mainstream therapies anyway, but massage does not need to be linked to anything spiritual and most people as I have already said can benefit from abdominal work. I do abdominal work on lots of my clients when they need it and there is nothing spiritual attached to that.

Abdominal work can benefit lots of people and thats all I am saying. It is also well known and well thought of in the States too.

[davron]

Hey Apprentice,

the air was hot and dry on the beach, so the scuba was great. I dont think I can post pictures here, did some great photgraphy with a new underwater camera.

Were you one of Pizza Gurus apprentices? What was he like to be around? Did you see him abusing ladies in his office? Interested to know as most of the stuff you hear is just second grade gabble.

Flying Saucer Man also says a lot of Pre-buddhist stuff does not exist, if the fish the internet you will find a lot of people and sites mentioning the stuff. Could be that we use Yahoo and not European based Google which is why we get more hits on searches.

Davron

[apprentice]

7 June 2008 Davron said:

‘Flying Saucer Man has made several statments which he has repeated a lot, which if you bother to reserch them are just plain not true, but he keeps banging away. If you use a 'web spider' you will find the references ( a web spider searches all of the internet not just Yahoo). Check the things he has stated as facts.’

8 June 2008 Davron said:

‘Flying Saucer Man also says a lot of Pre-buddhist stuff does not exist, if the fish the internet you will find a lot of people and sites mentioning the stuff. Could be that we use Yahoo and not European based Google which is why we get more hits on searches.’


According to the UK-Skeptics website:

‘Skepticism is a method of inquiry, not a position on matters. It is a way of examining claims and making decisions. The idea is to apply the rules of logic and reason with critical thinking skills in assessing claims or issues and to form conclusions based on evidence, not on personal preference or prejudice.’


Davron, I really would appreciate access to the evidence on which you base your conclusions. You seem willing only to offer avoidance. Are you sure you are a skeptic and not a troll whose purpose is to distract attention from the subject of this thread?

[Sarama]

7 June 2008 Davron said:

Davron, I really would appreciate access to the evidence on which you base your conclusions. You seem willing only to offer avoidance. Are you sure you are a skeptic and not a troll whose purpose is to distract attention from the subject of this thread?

The same could be said of you "apprentice".
Davron asked you a very pertinent question to do with this very thread.

And I quote: "Were you one of Pizza Gurus apprentices? What was he like to be around? Did you see him abusing ladies in his office?"

So "apprentice" what was your part and acquaintance with the subject of this forum? We would "really appreciate access to the evidence on which you have based your conclusions".

Like I said in an earlier posting in reply to you, I do not buy the one-man cult show that's being dished up on one of the many forums and various blogspots.

‘Skepticism is a method of inquiry, not a position on matters. It is a way of examining claims and making decisions. The idea is to apply the rules of logic and reason with critical thinking skills in assessing claims or issues and to form conclusions based on evidence, not on personal preference or prejudice.’

Your claim seems to be that your subject is a dangerous person and you and your cohorts have gone to great lengths to publicise your allegations from behind an assortment of pseudonyms all over the internet, but not one of you can hide your prejudice, the story has been grossly slanted from the beginning, and you continue to cite hate based on no evidence.

S

[Sarama]

As for what I said about Rosita Arvigo, I went and looked at the website and it is stated on her website/the website of the Arvigo Institute.

...massage does not need to be linked to anything spiritual and most people as I have already said can benefit from abdominal work. I do abdominal work on lots of my clients when they need it and there is nothing spiritual attached to that.

Abdominal work can benefit lots of people and thats all I am saying. It is also well known and well thought of in the States too.

Fair enough Neuro, but Rosita Arvigo is claiming that massaging someone's abdominal area can increase fertility, would you agree with this assertion from the perspective of an RN and now a sports therapist?

Just because something is popular or well known, does not make it exempt from either criticism or examination. On the contrary, the more popular it becomes the more it leaves itself up for inquiry. The RR lot have brought it to the attention of the public. So lets start a separate thread on the topic before we get accused of diverting attention.

At least until we find the link between those on RR and MAM.

Ta,
S

[apprentice]

Sarama,

as my name implies I was an apprentice of Christopher Hansard.

The subject of this thread is Christopher Hansard. Pizza Guru is Davron’s invention.

My evidence has been given to the appropriate authorities – the police. It has no place here.

My position on this thread has always remained the same – that people with direct experience of abuse by Christopher Hansard, in whatever form, take their complaints to the police and to ‘Witness against abuse’.


Sarama you say:

‘Your claim seems to be that your subject is a dangerous person and you and your cohorts have gone to great lengths to publicise your allegations from behind an assortment of pseudonyms all over the internet, but not one of you can hide your prejudice, the story has been grossly slanted from the beginning, and you continue to cite hate based on no evidence.’


Yes, I do believe that Christopher Hansard is a dangerous person.

I do not have cohorts. My contribution here is individual and independent.

I do not have an assortment of pseudonyms all over the internet.

I have no intention of hiding my prejudice.

Yes, my story is slanted.

Your comment: ‘and you continue to cite hate based on no evidence.’ is meaningless.


Evidence of Christopher Hansard’s fraud is freely available in his books and on internet archives of his many websites. Christopher Hansard has done nothing and can do nothing to prove any of his fantasy history because it is a fantasy. In the face of challenge he has withdrawn his stories from his websites and his ‘medical centre’ has collapsed.


Davron, would you like to answer my questions now? 16 October 2007, you said:

‘I decided to start posting after I saw a reference to Jeff Bowe, my how times change. When I first came across Mr Bowe he was in the land of the fairies writing articles and a really serious flying saucer nut. He was a firm supporter of 'aliens ate my dog' and 'George Bush is really a fish' category of journalism. So it came as some surprise to find that he had read reinvented himself as the defender of all things true and Tibetan.’

7 June 2008 2007 said:

‘Flying Saucer Man has made several statments which he has repeated a lot, which if you bother to reserch them are just plain not true, but he keeps banging away. If you use a 'web spider' you will find the references ( a web spider searches all of the internet not just Yahoo). Check the things he has stated as facts.’

I guess with your superior Israeli ‘web spider’ it should be easy for you to find and post some references to support that suggestion don’t you think?


Sarama, do you really find my question to Davron so unreasonable? Are you not interested in why he should want to deflect interest from Christopher Hansard onto two characters of his own invention?

Or would you prefer to go back to your little chat about Mayan abdominal massage?

[Sarama]

Sarama,

as my name implies I was an apprentice of Christopher Hansard.

The subject of this thread is Christopher Hansard. Pizza Guru is Davron’s invention.

My evidence has been given to the appropriate authorities – the police. It has no place here.

Then why is it you keep posting here and elsewhere, if you say your "evidence" has been given to the police and has no place here? Are you implying that the police and appropriate authorities have not taken your "evidence" seriously enough to warrant at the very least an investigation?
If that is the case, then why should the public? Instead of just getting defensive, think about it. Why would the public take it seriously if the police have not?



Yes, I do believe that Christopher Hansard is a dangerous person.


Then I will repeat Davron's question to you: "Did you see him abusing ladies in his office?"

and if so, then why are you only doing something about it now only after having been dismissed as reported? Or do you join the supposed ranks of women who seem to have met him halfway in crossing professional and ethical boundaries?

If that is the case, then you will have an even more difficult time in a court of law, and from what I can tell, claiming that your teacher is actually some sort of ancient (though apparently fraudulent) demi-god who cast an evil spell on you and made you fall in love with him, is just not going to hold up.

What I am trying to impart to you, is that going online in the way that you have done has probably hurt your case more than anything else. And if there are actual 'victims' then you may have hurt them also by bringing their pain into the public domain. Those offering Soul Retrieval, and various forms of massage therapies for the kinds of abuses that you are claiming are also not helping. As I suggested to mariac, they would be much better off going completely outside of the situation and not having anything to do what so ever with anyone connected to this gent. You for instance having been an "apprentice" are in no position to be offering anyone help at least until you get help yourself, and I am not talking about any form of Exorcism, or Shamanism here.



I have no intention of hiding my prejudice.

Yes, my story is slanted.


Then perhaps you should stick to the type of forum in which you are better accustomed, may we suggest the "Cult Education Cult" ?



Your comment: ‘and you continue to cite hate based on no evidence.’ is meaningless.


Perhaps you will find it more meaningful then when I inform you that in making such defamatory statements without any actual evidence, unfortunately puts the onus on you to prove such statements, and until such time your statements could very well be deemed as defamatory. Again, not helping your case, and more than likely detrimental in the long run.



Evidence of Christopher Hansard’s fraud is freely available in his books and on internet archives of his many websites. Christopher Hansard has done nothing and can do nothing to prove any of his fantasy history because it is a fantasy.

Again, the onus is on you and not on Hansard to prove your allegations.
It may not be fair, but it's true.

What may be most unfortunate about what you and your cohorts are presenting is that your guru seems to be in a completely unregulated field if I am not mistaken? If that is the case, then you will find your task even more difficult to accomplish. Until his and other similar alternative forms of healing are regulated you may find it difficult to stop him from practicing, fraud or not. Even Witness might have a hard time having any impact unless you all actually get it together and get yourselves organised for a class action suit. Davron actually made reference to this as well if you will recall? Right now however it's looking very much on the outside like you are all completely round the twist and are in no position to be pointing your fingers outwardly at anyone. That in short, is what your now 100 pages of garbled ranting has accomplished.



Sarama, do you really find my question to Davron so unreasonable? Are you not interested in why he should want to deflect interest from Christopher Hansard onto two characters of his own invention?

Or would you prefer to go back to your little chat about Mayan abdominal massage?

apprentice, to be honest, I really have no interest as to why, as you suggest, Davron might be deflecting interest from your guru. I am far more interested in what is in this for you exactly?

[Neuromuscular Therapist]

Sarama,

I have just started a new thread on Maya Abdominal Massage and have posted a reply there.

[mahakala]

Davron has made comments about Jeff Bowe, calling him flying saucer man, and refused to back up his allegations. It is of interest because Jeff Bowe is going to quite ridiculous lengths to expose as a fraud a man he claims to never had anything to do with. Going after apprentice as having a guru relationship with Hansard is also unfair. Apprentices worked at Eden while they were learning what Hansard called dur bon medicine. Nothing unusual about that. Apprentice has also stated clearly that he believes Bowes political ranting is diminishing the impact of the real harm done by Hansard and making it all look like a political and possibly personal squabble. Thus Bowe and his motivation is of interest.

[apprentice]

Returning to the subject of this thread, my position has always remained the same. I recommend that people with experience of abuse by Christopher Hansard take their complaints to the police and to ‘Witness against abuse’.

'Witness against abuse' works to support and seek justice for people abused within a therapeutic or medical relationship.

‘Witness against abuse’ understands that people so abused need more than ‘agony aunt’ psychology to help them recover from the betrayal of trust that they have experienced.

http://www.witnessagainstabuse.org.uk/

You can email them or call the helpline on 08454 500 300.


If you would like to report your experience to the police please contact the ‘Sapphire Unit’ on +44 20 8246 0128.

If you just feel cheated or conned by Christopher Hansard please take your complaint to the trading standards office for Victoria.

If you would like to read some sincere and authentic voices sharing their real experience of Christopher Hansard please go to:

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,25113,page=1

Sarama and Davron, thanks for all the good work keeping this thread active. All the best stuff happens in the first couple of pages.

Davron, I could tell you stories that would make your toes curl.

[mahakala]

Davron, I could tell you stories that would make your toes curl.

People keep saying that, dramatically referencing what is not spoken about. How about actually telling the stories somewhere, where other people can read them, and actually begin to believe that the Hansard story isn't just one of hurt feelings and inflated expectations.

[Sarama]

People keep saying that, dramatically referencing what is not spoken about. How about actually telling the stories somewhere, where other people can read them, and actually begin to believe that the Hansard story isn't just one of hurt feelings and inflated expectations.

For the simple reason they already have not only made numerous dramatic references in the form of 100 pages on RR, and have indeed spoken at long length about their hurt feelings and inflated expectations as you offered.
Thankfully the police and local authorities do not make arrests based on these alone. Furthermore, the press is disinterested for the same reasons.

Therefore I beg to differ with apprentice's sentiments proposing that -
"If you would like to read some sincere and authentic voices sharing their real experience of Christopher Hansard please go to: RR"

The number of false names seem to equal that of the number of false testimonies given therein. If the voices were indeed sincere and authentic they would be offering them directly to the authorities and to organisations such as Witness period, and no one would be taking the opportunity to boost their rankings, popularity, and endorse themselves.

I'm not sure anything further needs to be said mahakala, they have already cried rape have they not?

I see today that a "dr thomas" and myself seem to be in some agreement, in that the onus is up to those who are making the accusations to prove their statements. This is not "going after" apprentice as you suggest mahakala, it is a fact. No, it may not be fair, but it is the law in the U.K.

I really do not understand what all the fuss is about Bowes mahakala, one would think he would be embraced by the rest as they seem to share an enemy, or is this a members only cult club?

Sarama

[davron]

Apprentice,

In the late 90s I spent a lot of time doing noting due to a car accident. My then workshop was two doors down from a used book shop. I used to go and browse the stock, they had stacks of books and magazines about flying saucers, Jeff Bowe was listed and an English contibutor. I looked on the internet and using web spider I found a quote about Jeff Bowe and flying saucers before I made my comment.

I have seen false Gurus in action and I would never defend them, here they send children into gunfire for no other reason than their own personal fame and desire for money.

I have never defended the 'Pizza Guru' and I notice that you dont mind that term. I call him that because he sells instant enlightenment and like all home delivery pizza it arrives late, is cold and tastes awful.

Rick Ross is mob rule, voices of reason have been drowned, I checked Rick Ross before I wrote this and Mr Thomas is correct. Screaming something must be done, is not the same as doing something.

We have lots of screamers here those for and against violence, those for and against war, those for and against peace. They all scream while the victims on both sides suffer.

I will not do your case work for you but if you examine his staments about respected leaders in the Buddhist faith and then do a little digging you will find his statments are not well researched, but they are repeated a lot. Did he also not say the the abuse issues were not of any concern any longer. Tell that to the victims.. and watch the humiliation and rage on their faces.

You will win your case if you apply cold reason and logic.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Davron

[mahakala]

.

I call him that because he sells instant enlightenment

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Davron

As far as I know Hansard was not selling enlightenment.

Revenge is not a legitimate motive.

[apprentice]

Davron, I couldn’t get one of those spiders you mentioned but I did switch from Google to Yahoo (are you a shreholder?) as suggested. I yahood ‘Jeff Bowe’. I got to page 12 and you would not believe how many different disguises he has. This guy is seriously cunning.

(Jeff) Bowe is a regional vice president for The Resource Development Group, a business consulting company.

For over 25 years Jeff Bowe has been honing his artistic skills and increasing the depth of his understanding of pure radiant color.

Jeff Bowe is a professional sales trainer, sales coach, and outsourced sales manager.

Training Account Manager Jeff Bowe recognizes Hallmark Inns & Resorts,

Jeff Bowe, Regional Vice President and Partner of the Resource Development Group LLC

Jeff Bowe, former town chairman,

Jeff Bowe, Eagle Point Chairman,

Jeff Bowe, Superintendent of Industries at FPI's Estill facility

Jeff Bowe of Benham Press (Indianapolis)

Jeff Bowe's is also running a campaign set around the U1-U3 series. Jeff has done a wonderful map of the Saltmarsh area

I commissioned Jeff Bowe to paint me a medicine wheel

The speaker, Jeff Bowe, is an adjunct college instructor

Guest Presenter: Jeff Bowe-Radiant Color Therapy

forty-one images by internationally acclaimed color therapist Jeff Bowe

Hey! My name is Jeff Bowe, I came over from the UK to attend the Navan march and spent a night at the Camp.


I even came across another forum discussing Christopher Hansard and they quoted Jeff Bowe as if he were something of an expert on Tibet:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1766.0


I refused to be outwitted by the man and Yahood ‘Jeff Bowe UFO’.

Davron, you’re dead right. There are two sources linking Jeff Bowe to UFOs. One is the Rick Ross Forum (something to do with cults) and the other is this website. Isn’t that amazing? I wonder if they have anyone in common.

[Julia]

Nice detective work, apprentice!

[Sarama]

Davron, I couldn’t get one of those spiders you mentioned but I did switch from Google to Yahoo (are you a shareholder?) as suggested. I Yahooed ‘Jeff Bowe’. I got to page 12 and you would not believe how many different disguises he has. This guy is seriously cunning.

I refused to be outwitted by the man and Yahooed ‘Jeff Bowe UFO’.

Davron, you’re dead right. There are two sources linking Jeff Bowe to UFOs. One is the Rick Ross Forum (something to do with cults) and the other is this website. Isn’t that amazing? I wonder if they have anyone in common.

Apprentice, unlike you, Davron has been sincere with their replies to you. Once again you have failed to answer any of the queries posed to you, and it is you who has again diverted this thread, (I thought you might appreciate that particular phrase, as it is so well used in your favourite forum).

You have also posted yet another link to one of the many blogspots, brochure pages, forums, and chatrooms you and your fellow apprentices have no doubt started. It would appear for all intents and purposes that you are still very much involved in a cult, however it is no longer headed by one C Hansard, but is still being faithfully carried on by his flock. Congratulations!

You have done us the honour of making your position here somewhat "clear" so it is only fair that I should offer you the same. My position is this; You have entered not only this forum but many under various pseudonyms making some fairly serious accusations without any evidence what so ever. I will concur that under the circumstances perhaps it is not for public viewing. However to date I have only read one posting that seemed to have some semblance of both sincerity and some initial clarity of the situation or even acknowledging the remote possibility that there are many stories here, and not just your slant. However she was swiftly bombarded with under the table private messaging on RR, and was barely acknowledged here until it was too late.
This poster had a very sincere, heartfelt rendering of her feelings in her first posting which was presented without prejudice as you say, and the usual obvious healthy dose of scorn, vitriol and outright spew that I for one have seen most of the other posters demonstrate. The poster seemingly stumbled upon the forum and being a patient would have understandably been shaken up by what she read there, as was I initially, but not because there are any remnants of truth or healing being offered there, but because they are by all accounts having a public temper tantrum!

Then in her following postings one can clearly observe the damage done and change that took place as the confusion she said she felt was seen as opportunity for some, and in no time at all a somewhat sane sounding poster was reduced to saying she had been "psychically attacked" and was in need of a Shaman or better yet a bloody massage, pronto! to "get his energy off!"

This poster was asking for opinions, advice, differing points of view maybe. She admitted that nothing had even happened between her and her practitioner, but was now analyzing her experience to such a degree, and not finding anything concrete or substantial, found herself having to rely on the mob to fill in the blanks for her, and convince her that something had indeed happened to her after all, something so profound that it was not even of this world. So far reaching that it actually took place in the psychic realms!

If this is what Pizza Guru taught you then it's no wonder you are all behaving the way you are.

Get grounded!

[apprentice]

Sarama, goodness you are so right. I did get distracted and almost forgot to say that people with experience of abuse by Christopher Hansard should take their complaints to the police and to ‘Witness against abuse’.

'Witness against abuse' works to support and seek justice for people abused within a therapeutic or medical relationship.

‘Witness against abuse’ understands that people so abused need more than ‘agony aunt’ psychology to help them recover from the betrayal of trust that they have experienced.

http://www.witnessagainstabuse.org.uk/

You can email them or call the helpline on 08454 500 300.


If you would like to report your experience to the police please contact the ‘Sapphire Unit’ on +44 20 8246 0128.

If you just feel cheated or conned by Christopher Hansard please take your complaint to the trading standards office for Victoria.


Now Sarama you seem very clever and quite concerned about this matter. As you are well aware it is quite difficult bringing medical and other practitioners who abuse their clients to justice. The Government in the UK is trying to address this through new legislation designed to protect the patient, who is considered to be the vulnerable party in the relationship. This is of course only helpful when the practitioner belongs to an accrediting body.

Christopher Hansard does not belong to any accrediting body and seems to have very little formal training in any form of medicine. Christopher Hansard does seem to have a very long history of abusing his clients. What do suggest is the best approach? Should everybody just move on? Do you think Christopher Hansard might have got cured by now and should be left alone? Or do you just think as you said before that this is all the work of:

‘Former friends from teenage years that still have completely unchanged perspectives though their opinions burgeoned at the age of 17 or 21. Former acquaintances that have not even spoken or seen the man in going on 10 years, but keenly believe every bit of gossip and rumour that comes to them, and all seem to surmise that people get worse as opposed to better with time, or are even capable of change. Who is to say that this gent has not sought out help recently or in the last 20 years? Obviously not them, it is evident that none of them have made contact, spoke with, or even met their quarry and that is what troubles me most as a reader.’

Sorry you got kicked of the Rick Ross forum Sarama. Clearly you’re still smarting from that.

[mahakala]

My position is this; You have entered not only this forum but many under various pseudonyms making some fairly serious accusations without any evidence what so ever. I will concur that under the circumstances perhaps it is not for public viewing. However to date I have only read one posting that seemed to have some semblance of both sincerity and some initial clarity of the situation or even acknowledging the remote possibility that there are many stories here, and not just your slant. However she was swiftly bombarded with under the table private messaging on RR, and was barely acknowledged here until it was too late.
This poster had a very sincere, heartfelt rendering of her feelings in her first posting which was presented without prejudice as you say, and the usual obvious healthy dose of scorn, vitriol and outright spew that I for one have seen most of the other posters demonstrate. The poster seemingly stumbled upon the forum and being a patient would have understandably been shaken up by what she read there, as was I initially, but not because there are any remnants of truth or healing being offered there, but because they are by all accounts having a public temper tantrum!

Then in her following postings one can clearly observe the damage done and change that took place as the confusion she said she felt was seen as opportunity for some, and in no time at all a somewhat sane sounding poster was reduced to saying she had been "psychically attacked" and was in need of a Shaman or better yet a bloody massage, pronto! to "get his energy off!"

This poster was asking for opinions, advice, differing points of view maybe. She admitted that nothing had even happened between her and her practitioner, but was now analyzing her experience to such a degree, and not finding anything concrete or substantial, found herself having to rely on the mob to fill in the blanks for her, and convince her that something had indeed happened to her after all, something so profound that it was not even of this world. So far reaching that it actually took place in the psychic realms!



There are some good points here. An objective investigation is needed. Where is Inspector Clusoe when you need him!

[Sarama]

Now Sarama you seem very clever and quite concerned about this matter. As you are well aware it is quite difficult bringing medical and other practitioners who abuse their clients to justice. The Government in the UK is trying to address this through new legislation designed to protect the patient, who is considered to be the vulnerable party in the relationship. This is of course only helpful when the practitioner belongs to an accrediting body.

Why apprentice how very kind of you to notice how "clever" I am in these matters. So very sorry to disappoint you, but I have never entered into your favourite forum. I am quite serious in my sentiments about the various forums there and just what kind of poster they seem to attract on the whole.

In regards to your informative comments on who plays what roles in the practitioner/patient relationship, I am sure you have already picked up on my opinions on that matter as well, and that is that patients are becoming more and more aware and educated, and are taking more of an active role in their own healthcare, indeed they should question and indeed we should all do our own independent research. It is common sense, and most importantly it is in our best interests.

You will find that not all students, nor even a majority sleep with their teachers and are vulnerable as you say to magic spells, enchantments and evil shamans and to suggest that, just because you know some students who chose to enter into what sounds like longterm relations with your teacher, does not mean that the rest of us consider ourselves victims or even vulnerable, but are much clearer about our roles and boundaries as patients and students in the real world. Not all women would have made the same choices as you suggest. Not all of us feel vulnerable or dis-empowered in these situations.
And it is for this very reason that these cases are so difficult to prove in a court of law, because when asked by my physician to have sex with him, I said "NO" apprentice. That's right, we have a choice, we can make decisions on our own, some of us even have morals.


Christopher Hansard does not belong to any accrediting body and seems to have very little formal training in any form of medicine. Christopher Hansard does seem to have a very long history of abusing his clients. What do suggest is the best approach? Should everybody just move on? Do you think Christopher Hansard might have got cured by now and should be left alone?

Now, it is evident to me that you have been hurt, and are carrying hurt feelings on top of what you consider abuse, I have never questioned peoples feelings in this situation, I have only ever questioned their methods and their motives.

It is not evident that your teacher has crossed ethical boundaries simply because this is all going on online behind a veil of anonymity, but obviously he has upset many people including yourself, and has upset you enough to drive you and others to some very maddening extremes. What I would suggest coincides somewhat along with what Davron suggested, and that is to stop screaming, and do something about it. You claim to have gone to the police, and you have encouraged those who feel they have been abused to report to Witness who have many resources at their disposal, including counseling. I would take all of this further and lobby the government as well to bring in stricter regulations for ALL practitioners in the Alternative and Complimentary professions as they should not be treated any differently than anyone else who has contact with the public.

You might feel this is a bit of a conflict of interest for you and the others as you have all gone on to practice in these various fields no doubt? I can not comment on CH's training, it sounds ludicrous to me, but one of you mentioned he has been practicing for a very long time so he might be protected under some sort of grandfather clause.
Someone else mentioned class action, but the reason these cases are so difficult to prove is because someone said "YES", and not just once.
The other reason that no one seems to want to talk about is because people lie and make false allegations somewhat often unfortunately.

If you are practicing in the field of preventive medicine, then why not prevent this from happening again, by helping people to understand boundaries, and that their role as a patient or student does not have to make them vulnerable.
Why do you not get out there and educate people, and let them know that they have a choice, and that there are clear boundaries, there are checks and balances along the way.
Yes, apprentice I do suggest that everyone move on, if finding solutions and bringing a resolution to this situation is what you refer to as moving on, then I say yes. I have no idea whether or not CH has been 'cured' or not, or even if he is sick, but I would suspect so given his own biography. So my next question would be who facilitated his sickness, and his delusions? Who marketed him and his story? Who called him Master?
If you think he is sick, and you consider yourself a 'healer' or health practitioner than consider what you would do if someone who was equally as sick made an appointment to see you. Interesting question is it not?

What if someone like your former guru walked into your office for help apprentice?
Would you turn them away?

If someone came to you who was delusional in this way, who was this desperate for attention that he would fabricate a story, desperate enough to even consider relations with his students, and cross boundaries with patients, if someone like him came to you for help, and said he needed help and wanted to change, would you start various online forums running their name into the muck? Would you post their address on the world wide web and encourage people to mob outside their door?

What would you do apprentice, if someone like him came to you for help?

Because that is what you must do in this situation to prevent it from happening again, because your teacher is not the only one to have gone there, nor are his students or patients. What you are suggesting went on is not the first time it has gone on, and that is why if you want to do something, then do something for everybody in your situation, and in his.

Patients, and Students need to know that no matter what, they have a choice, and that it is not only inappropriate for their practitioner to cross those boundaries, it is harmful for everyone involved. If they find they have feelings coming up for their practitioner, they need to understand clearly what those feelings are, and that they are not "love", but transference. Obviously your teacher needs to know this too, but eventually if we are all armed with this knowledge then people like your teacher will not have any choice but to conform. No one will answer that call, no one will apprentice to him any longer, no one will reciprocate or meet him half way in the practice room.

Knowledge is Power.

So arm your "troops" with knowledge, not anger, and further delusions.
Your teacher was never a god, and no one is your "Master", stop looking outside of yourself for a miracle, glamour, grandeur, the answers, or what ever it is you and the others were hoping to find or receive from him, only you and they know.

But what ever it was, he could not deliver.

[apprentice]

Sorry Sarama, the ‘clever’ bit was just a joke. Have you ever thought about getting involved in discussions where you actually know something about the subject?

Of course if every woman were like you – living a virtual rather than a real life – there would be no worldwide epidemic of violence against women. ‘I said "NO" apprentice.’

As far as I can see only one woman with direct experience of Hansard ventured onto this forum.

You have the audacity to say with regard to her posting on the Rick Ross Forum:

‘However she was swiftly bombarded with under the table private messaging on RR, and was barely acknowledged here until it was too late.’

How on earth do you know that Sarama? Or is this just another of the many examples of you making it up as you go along?

Why don’t you go back and read the cynical trivia poured forth in her direction by you and Davron. “I said "NO" apprentice.’


People with experience of abuse by Christopher Hansard should take their complaints to the police and to ‘Witness against abuse’.

'Witness against abuse' works to support and seek justice for people abused within a therapeutic or medical relationship.

‘Witness against abuse’ understands that people so abused need more than ‘sarama’ psychology to help them recover from the betrayal of trust that they have experienced.

http://www.witnessagainstabuse.org.uk/

You can email them or call the helpline on 08454 500 300.


If you would like to report your experience to the police please contact the ‘Sapphire Unit’ on +44 20 8246 0128.

If you just feel cheated or conned by Christopher Hansard please take your complaint to the trading standards office for Victoria.

[Sarama]

You have the audacity to say with regard to her posting on the Rick Ross Forum:

‘However she was swiftly bombarded with under the table private messaging on RR, and was barely acknowledged here until it was too late.’

How on earth do you know that Sarama? Or is this just another of the many examples of you making it up as you go along?

I know this by the many references to private messaging made on that particular forum, I know this because next to no posters actually interacted with her above board. I will not copy and paste all the references from the 100 pages here because you know just as well as I do what happened. I know this because even mariac makes reference to the private postings she received as do other posters through out the forum. The real discussion is going on below the thread and only what you want the public to see is presented above board.



Why don’t you go back and read the cynical trivia poured forth in her direction by you and Davron. “I said "NO" apprentice.’

apprentice, it is apparent and obvious that some posters also chose NOT to entertain your guru and even felt they 'benefited' somehow from their visits, (though I can not even imagine how). Some posters also spoke up with a resounding "no". It is evident that not ALL his students chose to sleep with him and that some made choices that are in stark contrast to those of your friends and perhaps even yourself. Unless we are talking about rape here, and unless these women were underage, then we are talking about grown women who made choices for what ever reasons. The sooner we all acknowledge that we have choices, the less this sort of thing is going to occur.

I pose the question to you yet again: If someone came to you who was delusional in this way, who was this desperate for attention that he would fabricate a story, desperate enough to even consider relations with his students, and cross boundaries with patients, if someone like him came to you for help, and said he needed help and wanted to change, would you start various online forums running their name into the muck? Would you post their address on the world wide web and encourage people to mob outside their door?

mariac, if you felt at any time that my opinions were directed at you personally than I apologise, I simply think you should not have anything further to do with your practitioner and his apprentices. Please seek help from someone who is well beyond the situation and any of these people.

S

[apprentice]

Sarama, you ask:

'I pose the question to you yet again: If someone came to you who was delusional in this way, who was this desperate for attention that he would fabricate a story, desperate enough to even consider relations with his students, and cross boundaries with patients, if someone like him came to you for help, and said he needed help and wanted to change, would you start various online forums running their name into the muck? Would you post their address on the world wide web and encourage people to mob outside their door?'

No I would not, I would recommend the services of a psychiatrist. Why do you ask, do you know someone like this?

[davron]

I took this from Wikipedia, I feel it will shed light on some of the arguments used here.


Stockholm syndrome is a psychological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology) response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed. The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrmalmstorg_robbery) of Kreditbanken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreditbanken) at Norrmalmstorg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrmalmstorg), Stockholm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm), Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden), in which the bank robbers held bank employees hostage from August 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_23) to August 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_28) in 1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973). In this case, the victims became emotionally attached to their victimizers, and even defended their captors after they were freed from their six-day ordeal. The term Stockholm Syndrome was coined by the criminologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminologist) and psychiatrist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatrist) Nils Bejerot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils_Bejerot), who assisted the police during the robbery, and referred to the syndrome in a news broadcast.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome#cite_note-0)
Other uses
Loyalty to a more powerful abuser — in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in — is common among victims of domestic abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_abuse), battered partners and child abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse) (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_house). This unhealthy type of mental phenomenon is also known as Trauma-Bonding or Bonding-to-the-Perpetrator. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalyst) of the object relations theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations_theory) school (see Fairbairn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fairbairn)) as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser. A variant of Stockholm Syndrome includes cases of abusive parents and abusive siblings in which the victim, even after entering adulthood, still justifies the family abuse.

Psychoanalytic explanations

According to the psychoanalytic view of the syndrome, the tendency might well be the result of employing the strategy evolved by newborn babies to form an emotional attachment to the nearest powerful adult in order to maximize the probability that this adult will enable — at the very least — the survival of the child, if not also prove to be a good parental figure. This syndrome is considered a prime example for the defense mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism) of identification.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome#cite_note-2)

Sociological explanation

Based on the capital theory by Pierre Bourdieu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu), five forms of capital from the economic to the symbolic are constantly fought over in the society. Social actions amount to capital which can be used for power in various fields of social interaction. This power depends on violently preventing others from accessing capital and it is the opposite to a non-violent social action, where the capitals are used to increase the capital possessed by others. In the marxist class theory, capital is essential for self-realization. It has been proposed that traditions maintain the class society and forms of capitalist violence. In a hostage situation, these traditions are by-passed in a way which may allow an unforeseen action from a lower class person to gain capital. As personal interests are in conflict with the traditional culture, this lapse of tradition provides to the victims an independent forum where they interpret the actions of the abductor outside traditional norms and relate to the abductor in a compassionate way. This may lead to the need of assuring that the powerfully felt struggle for social equality of the abductor succeeds. This need may be accompanied by a sense of security, which exists between a loyal person and the abductor. This explanation can be linked to the psychologist Aymon Hamdi.


Sadly there is also a Reverse Stockholm Syndrome which we were taught about in the army. Simply put, when you captor becomes tired enough you take his gun and then hold him captive. In bad cases you take his gun, wake him up, torture him and then kill him. This is the ultimate victory for the captor because you would think you have won, but not so. You have become your captor and changed your values for his, you have become him.. very sad.

If we look at the Branch Davidians

Interviews with surviving Davidians state that David Koresh was intimately versed in the Bible and "knew it like he wrote it".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidians#cite_note-iw-0) Koresh taught that the U.S. government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States) was the enemy of the Davidians, and that they would have to defend themselves.
In a video made by the Davidians and released during the siege, Koresh stated he'd been told by God to procreate with the women in the groups to establish a "House of David," his "Special People." This involved married couples in the group dissolving their marriages and agreeing that only Koresh could have sexual relations with the wives. On the tape, Koresh is also shown with several minors who claimed to have had babies fathered by Koresh. In total, Koresh had 14 children who stayed with him in the compound.


I think we see all of this to a smaller extent reflected by the Pizza Guru cult.

The cult has been fallen apart and there are those who support him still and those who are trying to kill him. The weapon of choice is the internet and aggressive words.
Sex always features in this, all of the big cults suffer from this. Those spurned by the Guru no longer able to be his special one, his lover and personal friend. The loudest voices are probably the ones must hurt.


Davron

[apprentice]

Hi Davron, I see that your research is as superficial as ever. Have you looked into Stockholm Syndrome by proxy? It describes a condition in which people invent gurus and cults and then imagine what goes on between the guru and his/her followers. I think you need to check out what they are putting in your gas bottles.

[Chris_Farmer]

Apprentice

I have no desire to take this forum off at a tangent with regard to Jeff Bowe. However I have been watching this forum since I was unwillingly dragged into the Rick Ross Forum as a result of allegations made about me and my clients by Bowe and his acolytes.

In the interests of ensuring that Bowe and his friends do not hijack this forum as they have done with the Rick Ross one I just had to comment here.

I found your recent posts most interesting particularly your comment:


I even came across another forum discussing Christopher Hansard and they quoted Jeff Bowe as if he were something of an expert on Tibet:That is the problem with Bowe - he presents himself as an expert and demands information from other posters but when asked to produce any evidence of his expertise he simply ignores the request. So here is some information that we have discovered:

Bowe suggests that he is an expert on Tibetan culture - in fact it has been demonstrated that he is not aware of even very common Tibetan Buddhist names.

He intimates that he is familiar with the Tibetan language - it has been demonstrated that he doesn't recognise Tibetan words even when they are transliterated for them.

He claims to have more knowledge with regard to Bon than several highly respected Tibetan teachers - he doesn't and a simple search of the Web makes that clear. As he can't even understand Tibetan it is quite obvious that he could not have carried out the necessary research.

He claims that he supports free speech - he doesn't; he removed all replies to the ludicrous allegations that he was making on his numerous blogs and then even edited his own postings to remove his statements that demonstrated his lack of knowledge of Tibetan language or culture.

He claims that he has been involved with Tibet for some 20 years - no Tibetan or Buddhist organisation that we have contacted have ever heard of him and that includes the Dalai Lama's office.

His research and knowledge on Tibet has been examined by the UK authorities and found to be unreliable.

There is also one other source linking Bowe with UFOs and that is one of his own blogs.

If other users of this forum would like further info regarding Bowe then I will be happy to present it here.

It seems to me that Bowe is leading his own cult and also attempting to emulate Rick Ross. From recent experience they both seem to have serious problems with free speech with the result that the forum there is completely biased in favour of Bowe and that the original genuine issues have been forgotten.

[davron]

Hi Davron, I see that your research is as superficial as ever. Have you looked into Stockholm Syndrome by proxy? It describes a condition in which people invent gurus and cults and then imagine what goes on between the guru and his/her followers. I think you need to check out what they are putting in your gas bottles.



Apprentice,

I did not wish to go down this route as I felt that many of those who had suffered at the hands of the Pizza Guru, their experiences were very genuine. By placing this post and poisoning my statement you bring me to certain conclusions. You point out that there is a distinct possibility that this may be all fantasy on the part of those who may think that they have suffered at the hands of the Pizza Guru.

I was trying to point out how easy it is for normal people to be sucked in by the bright smiles of these false givers of truth. Many of these people if you do the research are ex-criminals and have psychopathic behaviour. Often they are sexually big predators some have been repressed homosexuals who have tried to induce their followers into inappropriate behaviour with them. You have pointed out to me a truth which is very uncomfortable, that is those who believe they have suffered under the hand of the Pizza Guru may just be suffering from group hysteria, fantasy and lies.

This extends itself across the entire group and surely must include you and the Flying Saucer Man as your postings so well puts it ‘imagining what is going on between Guru and followers’. Given the fact that you and Flying Saucer Man refused to answer so many questions it can only be read and interpreted as there are no answers. This is all lies and fantasy on your part and his. Did you not so say that you were a follower of the Guru? Then if this is your stance I am sad view my friend.

Like all interrogations with all prisoners eventually in anger they lash out and they tell you the truth. I think this is what has happened to you and unknowingly in your joy of striking out at me you have accidentally revealed the truth of the entire situation, that this is a fantasy, scam, fabrication of both you and Flying Saucer Man.

I know you will produce a very slick and snake oil salesman's statement which will make you look like a very clever fellow. But I am afraid now you have revealed your personal truth. This has all been going on in your head and the head of the Flying Saucer Man. Nothing you can say or do will retract the statement, which saddens me most is that if there has been a history of abuse you have just called all of those who have suffered the liars and cheats.

You are not interested in defending those who have suffered, possibly because you have suffered at the hands of this person and your heart is deeply wounded. Your agenda is totally self, you have no interest in others or compassion for their pains.

Davron

[apprentice]

Chris_Farmer, thank you that is quite interesting – albeit off-thread. It seems that both you and Davron think of your Mr Bowe in terms of a cult. May I suggest that you start a thread on the Rick Ross Forum as it deals specifically with cults. I would be very interested to read all you have on Mr Bowe although I do hope Davron can come up with a few references.

This is a forum for skeptics and the subject of the thread is Christopher Hansard and his amazing claims. Do you have any contribution to make to the subject?

[Sarama]

Chris_Farmer, thank you that is quite interesting – albeit off-thread. It seems that both you and Davron think of your Mr Bowe in terms of a cult. May I suggest that you start a thread on the Rick Ross Forum as it deals specifically with cults. I would be very interested to read all you have on Mr Bowe although I do hope Davron can come up with a few references.

This is a forum for skeptics and the subject of the thread is Christopher Hansard and his amazing claims. Do you have any contribution to make to the subject?

I do believe apprentice that the subject of this and all the other threads across the board are actually about you and what you are presenting as a cult remember? Your behaviour certainly would verify that you were indeed and are still very much a part of that cult mentality. The only complaints we have heard on this and upon reading other forums are from you and the other apprentices as they refer to themselves, who slept with their teacher though he was/is married?, a couple ex-girlfriends from over 30 years ago, some perhaps not that long ago, and some very rightfully so confused patients.

As to your teachers "amazing claims" you were obviously one of those closely tied to him that supported those "amazing claims". The rest of us on the other hand have said from the beginning that it is bunk, where as you are still presenting him as a god somehow capable of putting your small group under his spell and doing his bidding to excuse your own behaviours. Up until now, some of us were somewhat sympathetic, as we have all been duped from time to time, however being duped into believing what someone tells you is one thing, taking that story and using it to excuse your own doings is quite another. If alleged misconduct took place then it is the patients that are the real 'victims' if any in this situation, and if they are smart and still at all sane they will have put a healthy distance between you and your teacher. But as Davron said, you are not interested in them, you are only interested in hearing your own voice.

You verbally attack anyone who challenges you in the slightest. As I have been saying all along this does not bode at all well for your case. You have and can not offer any evidence here or anywhere but with the police, and other organizations, however as Bowes has offered, it seems you and the others actually let these alleged abuses go on and even facilitated them by facilitating your gurus "sickness"? Is that right?
On one hand you present numerous horrifying accounts and allude to happenings and events, then on the other hand you seem to all back peddle and say "but wait, we actually did not see anything, it all happened behind closed doors."



Hi Davron, I see that your research is as superficial as ever. Have you looked into Stockholm Syndrome by proxy? It describes a condition in which people invent gurus and cults and then imagine what goes on between the guru and his/her followers. I think you need to check out what they are putting in your gas bottles.

Your statements are just rude at this point beyond measure, I do not know if you have stepped outside of your little box of feeling sorrowfully sorry for yourself for having inappropriate relations with your teacher, but there is a war going on where Davron comes from.

Aside from that you're absolutely right! People do invent gurus and cults, and they do imagine what goes on between their guru and themselves.
A cult has not one but two integral structures to make it a "cult". A guru, or showman in this case, and guess what part two is apprentice? That's right, YOU are also an integral part of that structure. There is always a core group around the "leader" upholding and bloating the stories often times for their own benefit or status, most especially if they are somehow close, as in the case of a relationship. Without them, without their own stories, countless testimonials and salesmanship to others, there is no cult.

[Sarama]

Chris Farmer,

What exactly are Roderick Lane and Stephanie Wright's involvement in your products? Stephanie Wright has been presented as Christopher Hansard's consort for many years, and Roderick Lane was once a practitioner listed at Eden Medical Centre. What has happened here exactly? Their site was linked to your site, though as you say your own site has just recently been put online is that correct? So how is it possible that they would be linked? ???

Sarama

[Chris_Farmer]

Apprentice

Terribly sorry if my posting was off thread. Bowe's name is mentioned repeatedly on most of the pages of this thread and in your first ever posting - only the second in the entire thread - you suggested that people should read one of Bowe's blogs. On that basis I was under the impression that he was pertinent to your discussions.

Our advisors noticed the frequent references to Bowe here and suggested that I take a look. When I saw your recent lengthy posting that mentions the name Bowe 19 times - but makes no reference to Christopher Hansard whatsoever - I presumed that you were seriously interested in discovering information about Bowe. Clearly you were having problems finding the information you were looking for so I thought I'd help you out.

I have no information regarding Christopher Hansard other than what I have recently been forced to read so I'm afraid I can't help you out there.

I take your point re the subject matter of the thread and apologise for interrupting your discussions although your comment does beg the question as to why you wrote such a lengthy off thread posting in the first place.

BTW is your alias in the Ross forum Dorje by any chance?

[Chris_Farmer]

Sarama

I don't wish to appear obtuse and would be more than happy to provide you with any information that I might have that may be useful to you. Unfortunately I'm not sure exactly what you are asking and you appear to have been misinformed.

I'm presuming that you are referring to the Tibetan Way website that I produced for a client. If that is the case then Roderick Lane and Stephanie Wright have no involvement with that site. I would also point out that the products being sold on that site are not my products. The code and design of that website is my product but nothing else.

As for Christopher Hansard's consort I'm afraid that you would have to discuss that with them.

I'm not sure what you mean by:

"Their site was linked to your site"

I was recently informed that Roderick Lane's website has a link to Tibetan Way but I'm not aware of any others from the people you mention. The Tibetan Way website has been online for some 9 months and to the best of my knowledge the Christopher Hansard sites had all been taken offline some months prior to that so there could never have been any links.

So I think you have answered your own question - it is in fact impossible that they would be linked. As far as I am aware the only people who have suggested any such link are Bowe and his cronies and I'm afraid you have to take their statements with a large pinch of salt.

I hope I've answered your question but if you'd like further info then just let me know.

[Sarama]

Chris Farmer

Firstly, I am not here to interrogate you or put you on the spot and believe me I take everything these people post with a salt factory. I got my information directly from Roderick Lanes site when referred there by another poster. These references are taken from his site www.rodericklane.co.uk.

If you visit the archives to Chris Hansard's old site, both Roderick Lane and Stephanie Wright were listed as practitioner's there. It has been reported that Stephanie Wright was the mistress of Chris, and was "taught" by him as well. Apparently he taught Tibetan Bon Medicine to her, and some form of exercise called Kum Nye as well which she wrote a book about. Like you, I'm not at all interested in their affairs, but am interested in the connection between the site you put up and theirs because as quoted below "Women's Wisdom" was/is Christopher Hansard's product, ingredients, name, et all.

Maybe I don't understand just how this works, but why would Roderick Lane (a peer of Hansard's) be endorsing both Stephanie Wright (a former lover and apprentice apparently) and Tibetan Ways/Christopher Hansards products. Do you know? Are the site and the products your own, or theirs?



Find a Body Worker:

Chiropractors Stephanie Wright D.C. (B.App.Sci. Chiropractic) 07963 974 627 Old Brompton Road, London SW7. Stephanie is a highly skilled chiropractor with a deep knowlege of many systems of natural medicine, acupuncture, herbs and exercise systems.

TibetanWay.co.uk

Tibetanway are a small internet company that provide complete herbal and nutrition packages. They are only internet based and run at a very low overhead. The product I find I use most is 'Womans Wisdom'. It consists of three herbal formulas that have proved to be most helpful in PMT, prei-menopause and post-menopausal conditions.

They also operate a version of facebook for the worldwide Buddhist community it is used by Buddhists, freethinkers and many in the artistic community.

http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/

[Sarama]

Just as a matter of interest, is anyone else getting the distinct feeling that apprentice, "Jeff Bowes and his cronies" are simply being antagonistic purely just to keep their threads going strong?


Originally Posted by apprentice
Sarama and Davron, thanks for all the good work keeping this thread active. All the best stuff happens in the first couple of pages.

[Sarama]

I'm presuming that you are referring to the Tibetan Way website that I produced for a client. If that is the case then Roderick Lane and Stephanie Wright have no involvement with that site. I would also point out that the products being sold on that site are not my products. The code and design of that website is my product but nothing else.

My apologies Mr. Farmer, you have stated quite clearly here that they are not your own products. So you simply run the website for someone else is that correct?


As for Christopher Hansard's consort I'm afraid that you would have to discuss that with them.

I am just not that interested and am so tired of hearing about it to be frank, as I am sure we all are by now.


I was recently informed that Roderick Lane's website has a link to Tibetan Way but I'm not aware of any others from the people you mention. The Tibetan Way website has been online for some 9 months and to the best of my knowledge the Christopher Hansard sites had all been taken offline some months prior to that so there could never have been any links.

Could you have put a website up for a third party such as Roderick Lane and not be aware of it? Is it that he and Stephanie are being somehow supported by who ever hired you and that Stephanie being an apprentice and having knowledge of the products is endorsing those products and is selling them through your site?
I'm being quite sincere here by the way, and I do not want to jump to conclusions. From what I can see this happens all too often, and that's why I'm asking.


I hope I've answered your question but if you'd like further info then just let me know.

Thank you

[davron]

Apprentice,

I have reviewed your answers here and on the RR forum. I have reached the following conclusion you are either Flying Saucer Man or Dorje. It is clear that they form a team of mutual supports.

When confronted with a question you do not like or cannot answer as it involves cold anylitical truth you resort to the 'india lie', that is you turn your face away and remain silent and pretend it did not happen. In all cases of abuse and trauma hysteria and delusion are involved simply because of the trauma state.

Your acid throwing language leads me to the conclusion that you were party to some form of abuse. You may have been abused by the Pizza Guru which would be sad or the greater sadness may be that he encouraged to join in his abuse of others. If that is so it is a sad thing to know you were one of the evil sheep.

In this area I have a great deal of knowlege before you rage, review your statments and read the following books below... I have. I had spent many years talking to those who do and have done terrible things and many years listening to those who did things unknowingly, you fall into one of those groups.

CIA manual of interrogation: coercive force and passive interaction
1966 edition.

KGB Manual of interrogative intelligence gathering.

Section 12
Use of pen pals for intelligence gathering.
Dissention as a method of evaluation.

Essentials Of The Reid Technique: Criminal Interrogation And Confessions

By Fred E. Inbau, Joseph P. Buckley, Brian C. Jayne


Effective Interviewing and Interrogation Techniques
Gordon, N.J. & Fleisher, W.L. (2006).

The ethics of interrogation and the American Psychological Association: A critique of policy and process

2000 Security Cooperation Conference
"Perspective Is Everything"
Extracts

Principles of Kinesic Interview & Interrogation
by Stan B. Walters



So Dorje, which I inderstand is a religious symbol of power.. interesting choice. seeking to associate yourself with power and stating that you are poweful. Or is it Apprentice 'one who learns from a master and is given his secrets'. Or is it Jeff Bowe 'Flying Saucer Man' ( yes my invention)

Two names which reveal a truth

DID YOU ABUSE? WERE YOU ABUSED or is it both?

Davron with no funny gas who pointed out to you Google is not the only search engine to the person too stupid to find a webspider. Sometimes I think the mad men here with guns are more honest than the hate mail poster on the net. When they make a statment they stand the chance of loss of life.

You shout to hide your rage, impotence and guilt.

[mahakala]

Davron,

It seems likely that apprentice and dorje are indeed the same person. According to Dorje's testimony on the RR site, his encounter with Hansard was minimal, though he states he has been aware of him operating in the community for a while. It has never been clear why dorje has such animosity towards hansard. It would be good if he would be honest about that. Apparently, when hansard was first starting aout he went trolling for customers in the gay district of town. I wonder if dorje initially had an attraction to hansard, which hansard exploited in some way, then spurned him. How about it apprentice, what really is it all about for you?

[Chris_Farmer]

Sarama

Your posting 13/6/08: 5:57PM

I can see from your other postings that you are simply asking reasonable questions rather than attempting to interrogate me so no problems. I'm also glad to hear that you regard some posters' comments with a healthy degree of cynicism ( in this case realism )

I know that both Roderick Lane and Stephanie Wright were practitioners at Hansard's centre but it appears that many other people were as well so I don't understand why people keep dragging those two into the spotlight. I've also seen the postings in the RR forum regarding inappropriate relationships - the initial posting on that issue suggested that there might be a relationship and within a few pages certain people had accepted that suggestion as being fact. I saw no evidence in the RR forum to support that suggestion so that would appear to be in line with so many of the claims in the RR forum. Certain people will accept any unsupported nonsense so long as it fits in with their pre-conceived fantasies but then attack anyone who says anything that is supported by facts but does not fit in with their view of the world - its really quite sad.

As far as I know all the practitioners who rented rooms at Hansard's clinic - as opposed to being involved with the management - were well respected practitioners in their fields. On that basis I cannot see the problem with Roderick Lane mentioning one of his fellow practitioners on his personal site. Given that he only mentions one Tibetan Way product out of a current range of 24 that doesn't seem to me to be much of an endorsement. As to why Roderick Lane mentions Stephanie Wright and Tibetan Way on his site I'm afraid you would have to ask him.

I would however repeat that the products on the Tibetan Way site are not mine.

Chris

[Chris_Farmer]

Sarama

Your posting: 13/6/08: 6:19PM

You are correct about the Tibetan Way website - I designed and developed it and am now administering it and helping with ongoing developments.

No there is no way that I could have put up a website for Roderick Lane without being aware of it. I develop websites from scratch on the basis of a client's requirements. If you look at the source code of the Roderick Lane site you will see towards the bottom of the code that the page was developed by MrSite. That is a site that provides templates and simple page building tools so that people can construct basic websites for themselves.

While the clients who own Tibetan Way are supporting various third party projects they are all of a charitable nature and they are not supporting either Roderick Lane or Stephanie Wright. Nor have I seen any evidence of Stephanie Wright endorsing Tibetan Way products and she is certainly not selling anything at all via that site.

I hope this clarifies the situation and - once again - I will give you any further information that I am able to provide. However I cannot comment on the actions of third parties who choose to link to sites that I have produced. That is simply the nature of the Web and you would have to ask those people directly why they chose to link to the site.

Chris

[davron]

Once again I have looked into Wikipedia just to check that my understanding of a process is correct. As this site dedicated to sceptical enquiry I wanted to make sure that my thoughts were all in line before I did this posting.

Below is Wikipedia definition of scepticism in its multiple forms

In ordinary usage, skepticism or scepticism (Greek: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) skeptomai, to look about, to consider; see also spelling differences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences# Miscellaneous_spelling_differences)) refers to
1. an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object,
2. the doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) that true knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge) or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain, or
3. the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism that is characteristic of skeptics (Merriam–Webster).
In philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy), skepticism refers more specifically to any one of several propositions. These include propositions about
1. an inquiry
2. the limitations of knowledge,
3. a method of obtaining knowledge through systematic doubt and continual testing,
4. the arbitrariness, relativity, or subjectivity of moral values,
5. a method of intellectual caution and suspended judgment,
In classical philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_philosophy), skepticism refers to the teachings and the traits of the Skeptikoi, a school of philosophers of whom it was said that they "asserted nothing but only opined" (Liddell and Scott). In this sense, philosophical skepticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism), or Pyrrhonism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhonism), is the philosophical position that one should avoid the postulation of final truths. Turned on itself, skepticism would question that skepticism is a valid perspective at all.

I noticed that the Flying Saucer Man (Jeff Bowe) has been placing more repeated garbage on his website, in fact it is a blog. What is curious is the information that he is posting is recycled information both from the originators of the information, Tibetanway, and other people's information placed upon the website, that place of notorious sincerity and integrity the Rick Ross forum.

In the nature of skeptical enquiry I am wondering why? A man who states that he is concerned about Tibet and the welfare of Tibetan people, he's single-minded and very infant like pursuit of this company is very confusing. If he was genuinely interested in helping the people of Tibet wouldn't he be raising political awareness and or money for charitable causes as Tibetanway are doing? Instead he is trawling the night for recycled data trying to stop a company that says its ethos is charitable this I find very confusing.

We all are aware of his grievance with the Pizza Guru (Christopher Hansard) and it has been observed that there may be in fact be a link of some form of abuse possibly sexual in kind between him Dorje and Apprentice they may even be all the same person. So what is his primary motive? His actions look more like those of someone trying to spoil something, hiding in plain sight, so that others are not aware of what is going on behind them.

If you wish to see the Tibetan way rebuttal try following this link http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/rebuttal.html (http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/rebuttal.html)

The statements they refer to are available online if you search hard enough, no Apprentice/Dorje I am not going to do your research for you try finding them yourself. It makes very interesting reading and for a man who supposedly supports that Tibetan community this represents a shameful episode in Flying Saucer Man (Jeffrey Bowe) life.

Davron

[davron]

Sarama,


I have posted this on other thread but it may interest you.

Kis

I do not know if you have seen this. The man has not replied, so working on his logic method he must be guilty.

http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/BoweLetter.html (http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/BoweLetter.html)


What I do not understand of Bowe is if you wanted to ask a question of a person in the GB why would you post on American cult site?

Davron

[Sarama]

Sarama,

I have posted this on other thread but it may interest you.

Kis

I do not know if you have seen this. The man has not replied, so working on his logic method he must be guilty.

http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/BoweLetter.html (http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/BoweLetter.html)

What I do not understand of Bowe is if you wanted to ask a question of a person in the GB why would you post on American cult site?

Davron

Because Americans know how to advertise and market like no body's business! Bowes and the journalist who began the thread obviously wanted to reach Mass.

Just look at the contrast between conversations or debate on the American Cult Education Channel and this one. The former is filled with hysteria, backbiting and banning.

I wonder why they have not just taken legal action. Nothing says "I love you" quite like a defamation or harassment suit, and many on RR have left themselves open to that repeatedly.

[apprentice]

yawn

[KrisKrowe]

I wonder why they have not just taken legal action. Nothing says "I love you" quite like a defamation or harassment suit, and many on RR have left themselves open to that repeatedly.There are many ways to skin a cat.

Suing Bowe would just bankrupt him and the Tibetan Way team are just too nice to do that. But the truth is about to be revealed and like they say The truth hurts.

Some call it Karma but Id say What goes around comes around.>:D

KK

[Sarama]

There are many ways to skin a cat.
Suing Bowe would just bankrupt him and the Tibetan Way team are just too nice to do that. But the truth is about to be revealed and like they say The truth hurts.
Some call it Karma but Id say What goes around comes around.>:D
KK

KK, I see you're up early as well this fine morning!


yawn

Be sure to get your beauty sleep apprentice, I think I see your Karma pulling into the driveway.

[davron]

Apprentice,

I have heard that ‘yawn’ for real. Young men who have blown things and people up that has take the lives of their own people, yes mad men with guns and bombs will shoot anybody who disagrees with them. They sit there and when you ask why they say ‘yawn’, it is the sign of a person with no or lack of thought of consequence or no attachment to reality. It is usually the product of indoctrination and ‘cult’ thought. Cult thought as we are the one true holders of truth and all else has no consequence and is lies.

So, as for the truth that you have never failed to confront, are you a abuser of women as part of your cult membership? Were you indoctrinated into abuse as part of your cult membership? Were you abused by the cult leader and encouraged into a sexual arrangement with him as part of your cult membership? In your heart is this all because your cult leader has abandoned you and you are no longer a ‘special’ person?


Finally on a deeply personal note Apprentice/Dorje that was so rude to a lady! If you lived here I would give you a pistol and a head start in the desert, I would take a knife. >:-)

If you don’t understand ask Kris he knows.

Davron

[Matt]

yawn

Cover your mouth! I don't want to see what you had for breakfast.

:cheesy:

[KrisKrowe]

KK, I see you're up early as well this fine morning!
.........
Be sure to get your beauty sleep apprentice, I think I see your Karma pulling into the driveway.

Nice one Sarama.

In the words of Jon "I'll sleep when I'm dead." It is indeed a fine morning and it looks like there might be only a little rain in Glastonbury so no mud baths this year.

Yeah With all that yawning Apprentice must need his sleep. Maybe a guilty conscience is keeping him from sleeping.

There is indeed going to a be a whole load of Karma pulling into a number of driveways in the very near future.

All will be revealed.

Keep smiling.

KK

[KrisKrowe]

Apprentice,
.........
Finally on a deeply personal note Apprentice/Dorje that was so rude to a lady! If you lived here I would give you a pistol and a head start in the desert, I would take a knife. >:-)

If you don’t understand ask Kris he knows.

Davron

Davron

Yup I know what you mean. Up close and personal is the only way to go.>:D

As for rude What do you expect from Bowe's BadBoys? Theyre all too busy in la-la land to worry about manners and decency. Guess that must have something to do with having a Troll for your leader.

I see the sun is smiling on you too tho I hope youre not too close to Elat 107 is just way too hot.

Have a good one.

KK

[mahakala]

So Davron hangs near the Coral Island area does he?

[davron]

So Davron hangs near the Coral Island area does he?

I occasionally visit to Jacobs Rock, but no.
I live in a place named after an ancient leader. Does that answer the question?

Davron

[mahakala]

Tiberias?

[Mongrel]

Tiberias?

Kirk?

[mahakala]

Kirk?

Hey Mongrel, I think you need to stop watching old star trek re-runs and get out more.

[davron]

Almost, here is a clue

"Beware the Ides of March"

Davron O0

[bindeweede]

Almost, here is a clue

"Beware the Ides of March"

Davron O0

Caesarea? Do I win the jelly babies?

[mahakala]

Caesarea? Do I win the jelly babies?

Not unless you can correctly identify why an increasingly common medical procedure is named after a City in Israel.

[davron]

Ha, ha you got it.

Sad to tell you when I was in England I found out that Jelly Babies were not kosher (pig jelly). But the wonderful thing was they were first called unwanted or abandoned babies, they changed the name because little boys were going to shop and asking for 'half a kilo of b***ards please'.;D

So yes no increase b***ards, but you can bite the heads off the b***ards if you wish.

Davron

[bobdezon]

Jelly babies used to be called "Peace babies" when they first appeared in 1919. They have never been called "Abandoned or Unwanted babies" in any official capacity. ^-^

[davron]

Thanks, but dam! That was my best story from England, just goes to show I should have been more 'skeptical' and that British soldiers lie a lot.::)

Davron

[mahakala]

Jelly babies used to be called "Peace babies" when they first appeared in 1919. They have never been called "Abandoned or Unwanted babies" in any official capacity. ^-^

Do you have a link or reference "proving" that?

[bindeweede]

Do you have a link or reference "proving" that?

Sorry.Not speaking for Bob.


So after the First World War Bassetts introduced a special sweet (http://www.ciao.co.uk/Sweets_Non_Chocolate_5095487_4) to celebrate peace. They called them Peace Babies. And indeed what better way to celebrate peace than chomp on a baby. A few years (and wars) later the Peace Babies became Jelly Babies which has to be one of the more successful name changes in confectionary history.http://www.ciao.co.uk/Basset_s_Jelly_Babies__Review_5484322

Also

http://www.mrsomalleys.co.uk/bassetts-jelly-babies-p-68.html

[bindeweede]

Not unless you can correctly identify why an increasingly common medical procedure is named after a City in Israel.

Is the procedure named after the city in Israel? I presume you are talking of the caesarean section.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/cesarean_2.html

Also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section

[bobdezon]

Do you have a link or reference "proving" that?


Yes I do, but its nice to see you actually questioning an answer for once. You may become a sceptic after all O0 Its also a very easy subject to research, with no "hidden agenda", so you can be assured the information you find is real and accurate (if consistant)

Ps. Thanks bindeweed ;)

[mahakala]

Yes I do, but its nice to see you actually questioning an answer for once. You may become a sceptic after all O0 Its also a very easy subject to research, with no "hidden agenda", so you can be assured the information you find is real and accurate (if consistant)

Ps. Thanks bindeweed ;)

Yes, I receive consistant and reliable relief from muscle strain using my Traumeel Ointment, from mosquito bites using my Apis Gel; just as accupuncture and Atimonium Tart consistantly and reliably improves my breathing, without side effects, and with long term improvement.

[bobdezon]

Yes, I receive consistant and reliable relief from muscle strain using my Traumeel Ointment, from mosquito bites using my Apis Gel; just as accupuncture and Atimonium Tart consistantly and reliably improves my breathing, without side effects, and with long term improvement.


And you just had to ruin it didnt you? O0

[KrisKrowe]

Be sure to get your beauty sleep apprentice, I think I see your Karma pulling into the driveway.

Hi Sarama

Hope youre well despite the rain.

Your prediction has come true and the fairy will definitely be falling off her box laughing when she reads all the stuff on Bowe from Tibetan Way.

You can find them at

http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/rebuttal.html

http://tibetanway.blogspot.com/

http://jeff-bowe.blogspot.com/

http://jeffreybowe.blogspot.com/

The first 2 have the same info but the other 2 each have different info on Bowe himself.

Its obvious now that Bowe knows nothing about Tibetan Medicine and has been making up stories. I think the guys at Tibetan Way are pretty upset about Bowe pretending the Dalai Lama's people support the garbage hes been writing.

Mucho Karma on the way.

Have a good one

KK

[Sarama]

Hi Sarama

Hope youre well despite the rain.

Your prediction has come true and the fairy will definitely be falling off her box laughing when she reads all the stuff on Bowe from Tibetan Way.

You can find them at

http://www.tibetanway.co.uk/rebuttal.html

http://tibetanway.blogspot.com/

http://jeff-bowe.blogspot.com/

http://jeffreybowe.blogspot.com/

The first 2 have the same info but the other 2 each have different info on Bowe himself.

Its obvious now that Bowe knows nothing about Tibetan Medicine and has been making up stories. I think the guys at Tibetan Way are pretty upset about Bowe pretending the Dalai Lama's people support the garbage hes been writing.

Mucho Karma on the way.

Have a good one

KK

Tink has definitely had a few too many (laughs) as of late.
and, If I were more graphically inclined I would have changed the
"B" and "A" to "B" and "S", to reflect the more aptly named "BS" Box (a.k.a. Bullshit Box) that most of us sit all too comfortably on.

Nice work KK.
With Bowe out of the way maybe many more serious discussions can get under way. I sympathised with him up until the point he began moving far behind the realm of skepticism and a fairly healthy line of questioning into what you seem to be exposing as a somewhat lengthy list of lies.

I also think the lot on RR should move on over to a more credible forum.
Not necessarily this one, but one more to do with their original queries and concerns.
If any of them do have any legitimate complaint after seeking more serious help and guidance through legal means, not to mention more serious practitioners, they might actually be taken more seriously themselves. However if they insist on bringing in scorned women to testify against an apparent "Love Guru" (sorry, could not help myself)
as 'evidence' then they continue to alienate anyone with a genuine grievance.
They've kind of outdone themselves on the Cult Education Cult.

S

[Sarama]

ehm, more "serious" discussions like for instance "jelly babies" "Peace babies" "Abandoned or Unwanted babies" and lastly "b*stards"

binde, bob, and Dav! What are you lads on about now?! ::)

[vaidya]

Hi Sarama

Hope youre well despite the rain.

Your prediction has come true and the fairy will definitely be falling off her box laughing when she reads all the stuff on Bowe from Tibetan Way.

You can find them at

<snip>

Its obvious now that Bowe knows nothing about Tibetan Medicine and has been making up stories. I think the guys at Tibetan Way are pretty upset about Bowe pretending the Dalai Lama's people support the garbage hes been writing.

Mucho Karma on the way.

Have a good one

KK

Don't know about Bowe and his motivations, but his point that Tibetan Way is "using" the popularity of Tibet to market products that are in no way Tibetan is still valid.

In the blogs above (which I had to delete otherwise my post would have been rejected), there is a question about Angelica sinensis (dang gui), which is certainly used in Tibetan medicine, but what is unclear is if the extract in question in the "Woman's Choice" formula is the crude herb or the prepared form processed according to the dictates of Chinese medicine (I will guess it is likely the latter, since this is the most common form in TCM, and hence the most common form in the marketplace).

Regardless, the "Woman's Choice" formula on the Tibetan Way website is a standard formula clearly designed by a Western herbal practitioner, evidenced by the inclusion of botanicals such as Cimicifuga racemosa and Viburnum opulus that are native to North America and are not used in Tibetan Medicine. This is what Bowe was referring to: marketing a non-Tibetan formula under the auspices of a Tibetan ideology, seemingly, as a cynical marketing ploy. The claim that these formulas are comprised of non-Tibetan botanicals in order to preserve Tibetan plants as a sustainable choice is also questionable, since it seems that the person who made these formulas has zero knowledge of actual Tibetan medical protocols, much like Christopher Hansard himself.

[vaidya]

Davron, I couldn’t get one of those spiders you mentioned but I did switch from Google to Yahoo (are you a shreholder?) as suggested. I yahood ‘Jeff Bowe’. I got to page 12 and you would not believe how many different disguises he has. This guy is seriously cunning.

(Jeff) Bowe is a regional vice president for The Resource Development Group, a business consulting company.

For over 25 years Jeff Bowe has been honing his artistic skills and increasing the depth of his understanding of pure radiant color.

Jeff Bowe is a professional sales trainer, sales coach, and outsourced sales manager.

Training Account Manager Jeff Bowe recognizes Hallmark Inns & Resorts,

Jeff Bowe, Regional Vice President and Partner of the Resource Development Group LLC

Jeff Bowe, former town chairman,

Jeff Bowe, Eagle Point Chairman,

Jeff Bowe, Superintendent of Industries at FPI's Estill facility

Jeff Bowe of Benham Press (Indianapolis)

Jeff Bowe's is also running a campaign set around the U1-U3 series. Jeff has done a wonderful map of the Saltmarsh area

I commissioned Jeff Bowe to paint me a medicine wheel

The speaker, Jeff Bowe, is an adjunct college instructor

Guest Presenter: Jeff Bowe-Radiant Color Therapy

forty-one images by internationally acclaimed color therapist Jeff Bowe

Hey! My name is Jeff Bowe, I came over from the UK to attend the Navan march and spent a night at the Camp.


I even came across another forum discussing Christopher Hansard and they quoted Jeff Bowe as if he were something of an expert on Tibet:

I refused to be outwitted by the man and Yahood ‘Jeff Bowe UFO’.

Davron, you’re dead right. There are two sources linking Jeff Bowe to UFOs. One is the Rick Ross Forum (something to do with cults) and the other is this website. Isn’t that amazing? I wonder if they have anyone in common.

are we supposed to take this post seriously? is Jeff/Jeffery Bowe such an uncommon name? if all these names above WERE the same person, well, we should at least accord this personal a profound degree of respect for their apparently amazing energy!! what a lot of silliness...

[Sarama]

are we supposed to take this post seriously? is Jeff/Jeffery Bowe such an uncommon name? if all these names above WERE the same person, well, we should at least accord this personal a profound degree of respect for their apparently amazing energy!! what a lot of silliness...

Welcome vaidya,

In regards to your above query, the answer is unequivocally, unmistakably, explicitly, NO. Apprentice is rather transparently displaying the classic characteristics of a "troll" and not the sort found in the story of the Three Billy Goats gruff as previously discussed.

What we know of the Tibetan Way site is really very little.
It was started approximately 9 months ago, therefore December 2007(?)
and was virtually unknown until Jeffrey Bowes began directing his attention to their wares.
We are aware that Roderick Lane and Stephanie Wright were former colleagues of Christopher Hansard and coincidently both are now linked to the site through Roderick Lane's own site.
All titles, descriptions, and formulas are not just merely similar but are an exact match of those used previously by Hansard's online businesses and therefore safe to assume that they are indeed those very same products now being sold by Tibetan Way.
We do not actually know WHO is behind Tibetan Way nor the sales of the products previously owned by Christopher Hansard, but it is safe to say that Chris Farmer is what he says he is and is merely the designer or host of the site. We do not know who his clients are, and he is not obliged to tell us either.

After reading your post, and having read through RR, I am going to conclude that you know what you are talking about regarding the herbal formulas, their origins and perhaps even their formulator?
So having knowledge of these things, how is it the products are still being marketed as having Tibetan influences on a Tibetan website?

KK, do you know? vaidya do you?

Whomever is responsible evidently had or has an association with Hansard. I'm still very curious as to what Roderick Lane's involvement is and am having a little trouble believing the explanation that it is nothing more than a coincidence that he has personally linked himself to a site that was otherwise off the radar, or still in beta testing stages in fact.

I'm listening...

and KK, I've spoken with Chris on this forum, but I still have the niggling feeling that he is quite possibly being used by his own clients somehow and is defending them because he is a good person. I question why he has been put consistently on the front-lines in their stead?

[mahakala]

and KK, I've spoken with Chris on this forum, but I still have the niggling feeling that he is quite possibly being used by his own clients somehow and is defending them because he is a good person. I question why he has been put consistently on the front-lines in their stead?[/quote]

It is a good question. Obviously, since the formulas are being presented in identical fashion, either Hansard or his former associates are involved. The formulas are also identical to many of those sold in Canada under the name Wildrose. It is all very........weird.

[davron]

Hi,

Intersting view point.

All along Tibetan Way have said they are not contacted to Hansard, Bowe says yes, they say no. Bowe is then caught out telling lies about Tibetan Way, making false evidance and saying that he has asked the office of the Dalai Lama. He then says the herbs used are not used in Tibet, when other credible sources are and links are used to prove it.

Roderick Lane has an email address and telephone number, has anyone considered asking him about his association? If his answer is genuine would you still feel inclinded to follow Flying Saucer Mans line of lies? Given the way that anyone who does not fall into Bowes fantasy world is posted all over the net as a liar, do you expect him to contact the man? Has Bowe ever bothered to contact Lane, have you?

Chris Farmer has been very clear about his associations, I do not blame Tibetan Way for not getting involved, Bowe has no method of being contacted at all, thats called 'hiding away or being on the run' after comitting a crime.

Roderick Lane is contactableO0
Tibetan Way is contactableO0
Stephanie Wright is contactableO0
Chris Farmer is contactableO0

Jeff Bowe has no means of contact, he even changed his phone number.:sad::liar:

NOW draw a conclusion!


Davron

[davron]

The fact is that anyone who has been questioned about Bowe and his associations has not replied.
Anyone who has been asked if they were part of the 'Hansard Cult' has not replied.
Everyone who has throw dirt at Tibetan Way has been given an answer, anyone who asks questions of Bowe, Apprentice, Dorje has not been answered.

It looks more like those who are asking the questions have been made a member of the 'Bowe Cult'. They may be troll, some of them are the same person. But ask this are you condeming Tibetan Way via Chris Farmer for answering your questions? it looks like it and thats just plain crazy. It is also a sign of indoctrination into a cult.

Davron

[KrisKrowe]

Hi vaidya

I copied Sarama and had a quck scan thru the RR CH stuff. I see youve been attacked there for not toeing the line. I loved some of your comebacks.

"what kind of comment is "you are clutching at straws" supposed to mean? you don't know anything about me or my life"

"i disclose all this, knowing that with each post it may become easier to identify me, but i only do it in the spirit of openess - i have no fear"

Good on ya. Its a pity you dropped out of there before Bowe appeared. After him that place needed people like you to stand up to his rubbish.


Don't know about Bowe and his motivations

Bowes motivations are pretty clear to me. Hes an evil frustrated wannabe.

Wannabe. He wants people to think hes oh so clever and expert but he cant back it up. He wants to be a big fish in a small pond like the RR forum. He was doing pretty well there till he picked on people with the cojones to fight back.

Frustrated. Hes frustrated cos no-one in the real world wants to listen to his crap. All the Tibetan orgs contacted by TW think hes a nutter.

Evil. He steals peoples identities and writes lies in their name. Just check out his blog http://tibetanbonmedicine.blogspot.com/ (big thanx to Dav for the alert on that one) Hes posted there using Chris's name. Yeah theres some weasel worded small print to try and get himself off the hook but who reads the small print?

If you want to know about Bowes motivations you should keep checking those links. TW have got the full SP on him and its all going to come out. They are all pretty peaceful people but theyve had enough and they want to make sure he doesnt do this to anyone else.


but his point that Tibetan Way is "using" the popularity of Tibet to market products that are in no way Tibetan is still valid.

Youd have a point if they hadnt made it clear that the products are not Tibetan. They wrote all the Tibetan stuff cos they were going to be selling a load of stuff from Tibet and Nepal. They would be now if Bowe hadn't been wasting their time. Ive got no problem with your comment but you havent seen the whole pic yet.


there is a question about Angelica sinensis (dang gui), which is certainly used in Tibetan medicine

I know b*gg*r all bout Tibetan Medicine but I can read. If the Dalai Lama says that herb is Tibetan and used in their medicine thats enuff for me. Youve agreed its used that way so the big question is why did Bowe say it wasnt and say that the Dalai Lama's people agreed with him?


This is what Bowe was referring to: marketing a non-Tibetan formula under the auspices of a Tibetan ideology, seemingly, as a cynical marketing ploy.

Ive spent years in the music biz so I know a bit about cynical marketing. Bottom line is TW are already giving money to charities that do work for Tibet. If you start giving money away to things like that I dont think thats a cynical marketing ploy. If you dig round on the TW site theres a lot more there than just selling and theyre paying for all that.


The claim that these formulas are comprised of non-Tibetan botanicals in order to preserve Tibetan plants as a sustainable choice is also questionable

I might give the impression of not caring too much about things like ecology but I do. Ive read some of the info out there about Tibet and its pretty obvious there are problems with what the Chinese are doing there. CF told me about some glossy Chinese site selling medical stuff from Tibet stuff and that will damage the ecology.

Hope that helps.

KK

[KrisKrowe]

are we supposed to take this post seriously? is Jeff/Jeffery Bowe such an uncommon name? if all these names above WERE the same person, well, we should at least accord this personal a profound degree of respect for their apparently amazing energy!! what a lot of silliness...

Vaidya

Dont worry about all that. Thats just one of Bowes badboys trying to spread Bowes name round the web. Pathetic but they seem to worship him.

KK

[KrisKrowe]

So having knowledge of these things, how is it the products are still being marketed as having Tibetan influences on a Tibetan website?

KK, do you know? vaidya do you?

Whomever is responsible evidently had or has an association with Hansard. I'm still very curious as to what Roderick Lane's involvement is and am having a little trouble believing the explanation that it is nothing more than a coincidence that he has personally linked himself to a site that was otherwise off the radar, or still in beta testing stages in fact.

I'm listening...

and KK, I've spoken with Chris on this forum, but I still have the niggling feeling that he is quite possibly being used by his own clients somehow and is defending them because he is a good person. I question why he has been put consistently on the front-lines in their stead?

Sarama

I think I answered some of that in my reply to Vaidya. Like I said I dont kno much about Tibetan medicine. My meds are booze and tobacco and no other drugs. I think they were talking about some sort of overall holistic approach to medicine. More philosophy of Tibetan Medicine rather than actual meds. Chris and TW tried to explain it all to me but most of it went over my head.

I dont kno Rod Lane but I see Davs online and what hes said seems pretty sensible. Just ask the guy. Maybe he just scours the web looking for meds. AFAIK the bit of the site that was in beta testing was the portal and user area. They still are cos everyone at TW has been tied up with dealing with Bowe.

Chris is a good person but stupid he aint. Hes been a good mate for 20 years + and thats why I got involved. Mates watch each others backs and attacking our mates is a big big no no. Theres a long list of people queing up for a pop at Bowe for what hes done to Chris.

Hes in the front line cos he discovered Bowes crap over a weekend when he couldnt contact the guys at TW. Back then they were just working together but now theyre friends united by a common enemy. Right now Chris has taken a back seat so he can do his charity work. Hes still got to oversee the TW site but theyve brought in someone else just to deal with Bowe on the web.

Theres been a few questions today that I will ask Chris about but not today. I wouldnt dare interrupt him now. After Dav let us know about the other Bowe blog using Chris's name Chris went apeshit. If you go and look at it you'll see its the only blog Bowe has where you can leave comments so Chris did. If you read that youll see he was losing it big time. Last time I saw him get angry was back in the days when he was managing Virus and had to deal with promoters who thought they could rip off the bands. Even then he wasn't that angry. It took me a couple of days to calm him down and I told him he needed a break. So I pulled a few strings and on Thursday he took off for Silverstone and wont be back till tonight. I suspect right now hes having a few beers and getting ready to watch the race so not a good time to call him.:smiley:

Anyway Im sure he'll come back and answer for himself.

KK

[KrisKrowe]

Dav

Welcome back.

Nice postings if a bit harsh. The questions aint that bad.;)

Thing is Bowes been planting ideas in peoples heads for a long time and its only now that TW are fighting back. They did the good thing and tried to get hold of Bowe (not physically!!!) to discuss all this in private. But hes done a runner on the phone front and ignored their emails but at least they tried. Now theyve run out of patience esp after the other blog turned up so theyre going public.

So now people will see the true story and theyll see that Bowe has been conning them along. If they still stick up for him after that then they must be outta their heads. Ive seen a lot of whats gonna come out and it aint pretty. Bowes attacked everyone in the Tibetan scene from the Dalai Lama downwards but hes hidden a lot of it. Thats why he keeps using different names. Hes got at least 8 or 9 blogs and websites running and all of them use dodgy names and other info. Some of them even quote Jeff Bowe as being an expert. Its just pathetic. If you want to say something at least put your name to it.

Some of what hes written makes it pretty clear that he appears to support and wants violent protest in Tibet. He may have played with toy soldiers when he was a kid but I guess thats the closest he ever came to armed conflict. Now he sits at home in the UK and expects Tibetans to fight the Chinese army. Id give him a gun and drop him in the middle of Tibet and let him fight the Chinese. See how fast he runs then.

What would happen if they did start an armed revolution. A load of Tibetans running round with antique weapons against the Chinese army. The Chinese would love it. First theyd start shooting vids to prove the Tibetans were armed and then theyd start shooting bullets and ask questions later. End result would be a lot of dead Tibetans while Bowes sitting in his armchair and sprouting crap over the web about his solidarity for the cause. Big deal. Once all the Tibetans were dead what would Bowe be supporting then.

Someones posted a reply on the TW Bowe blogs and hes mentioned something that TW already told me about. Bowe was supposed to be an expert witness (what a joke) at some immigration hearing about Tibetans. When it came to the hearing he bottled it and didnt show up. Hes telling them to risk their lives in Tibet and he cant even be bothered to show up to defend the ones in England. That guys got a yellow streak a mile wide down his back.

Anyway I guess Im preaching to the converted. You live with that sort of 'patriot' every day. They let others do the dirty work and die while they sit around in comfort. Evil muthas.

Ah well Its a mad world. No Moto GP today so I guess Ill crack a few cans and watch the 4 wheel one instead. Might even spot Chris on the TV but I got him into a nice little hospitality gig so he can watch the race and party at the same time.O0

Have a good one

KK

[Sarama]

Dav,

No one is questioning the lack of credibility of Bowes, I don't trust him as far as I can toss him after what you told me, and what KK has shared. Bowes is a mute point as far as I'm concerned.
I'm genuinely worried that CF is being wined and dined and possibly stuck full of cigars.

KK,

You're a good friend and CF is lucky to have you.
Just follow me for a moment though, bear with me.

Let's just assume that whomever is selling the products on TW somehow purchased them from a liquidators when CH's businesses went under and let's just say that Roderick Lane being a former close colleague of CH's is now directly involved with his former colleagues products either in the way of a) sales or b) just an 'innocent' endorsement.
We can not prove sales, but he IS however linked to and is endorsing those products on a site that is still in beta testing stages. Meaning without Bowes pointing us all in that direction, no one would have even known about it, until they officially launched the site.

Are you still certain that is just a wild and crazy coincidence, because I am not.

CF has no need to defend anything to me, so let's be clear on that, but it's no coincidence that Roderick Lane-former colleague, and Stephanie Wright-former mistress/apprentice are involved somehow.

Is it against the law that they should somehow be involved in the selling of the products that they or somehow they know purchased from a liquidators? NO. CH's loss, their gain.

Do I suspect I will get a genuine answer if I contact these people directly? No, to be honest, I suspect not as they were former colleagues of CH's and I strongly suspect Mrs. Wright is more than a little distraught at having her affair exposed all over the internet, and we have yet to establish her involvement in any abuse that appears to have taken place over CH's seemingly many years of practice.

Now while I am aware there are more than a few lies thrown into the mix here, I suspect there are some truths as well, many of which can not be "proven" in an online forum, and that is why I have consistently directed posters in this thread to go directly to the police. They can not even begin an investigation if there is not a complaint.

Back to CF, I am curious as to why his clients put him in this position of having to defend himself in the first place quite frankly.
KK, listen, this all could have been avoided if his clients either a) informed him from the beginning about what they were going to be selling on his site and the controversy surrounding b) attempted to sell them under different names.

These are herbals remember and both the UK and Europe have some rather 'strict' codes and laws to follow involving their distribution and sales. Though not nearly strict enough if you ask me, my point is that not just anyone could have purchased them intending to sell them in the UK. In fact only someone bearing some form of liability insurance would be licensed to sell them, or advise the public on how to take them for that matter because they are considered internal 'medicines'. Therefore it would have to be someone who has some semblance of herbal knowledge or had direct contact with what they were going to be selling. If anything should go "wrong", in the "unlikely event" and so forth, someone has to be in the position of accountability if the herbs somehow mix with the customers normal meds. So, my question is, WHO is that?

vaidya is right KK and Dav, they are not Tibetan Herbal formulas. mahakala directed us to some herbal formulas being sold stateside. The packages that TW is selling and the ones being sold by WR are the same, different wrapping. They were formulated stateside using mainly North American sourced herbs.

CF is being put through an awful lot of unnecessary grief in my opinion. His clients know what they are selling, they are obliged by law to know. CF does not, and how could he have known?

Bowes sounds completely unreasonable and is taking out everyone within his line of fire but I do not suspect that CF is the only one who has been wrongfully targeted during Bowes reign of terror on Hansard, and that is just another reason why I would not want to approach some of those who can be contacted. If they wanted contact they would do as CF has chosen and put themselves out there (or here rather). I am sure they too have been harassed for just as long if not longer.

We also do not know what we are playing with here. As you offered KK, we do not have a full picture and any of those we contact may or may not have taken part in the original context of all of these threads... the alleged continuing abuses.

[Sarama]

KK, I just followed your link to Bowes latest, I am so sorry, please let CF know.

S

[Sarama]

I dont kno Rod Lane but I see Davs online and what hes said seems pretty sensible. Just ask the guy. Maybe he just scours the web looking for meds. AFAIK the bit of the site that was in beta testing was the portal and user area. They still are cos everyone at TW has been tied up with dealing with Bowe.

Just wanted to say that it's highly unlikely Rod just scoured the net for this one, and again how coincidental that would be.


All of our products have been created with care and detailed attention based upon a blend of Western science and Tibetan medical knowledge and lifestyle wisdom which has been successfully used for thousands of years. We have searched the world over for the best quality and safest ingredients, to create the most inspired products that are not only functional and do what they say but also bring you to relaxation, rest, well-being and happiness, bringing you to your ‘life’.

Beauty is health, health is beauty

Our health products have been developed to help everyone achieve their natural beauty through enhancing their health. By supporting the body's natural processes they allow the body glow of its own healthy beauty.

However, even these products, made with only the purest and highest quality plant and natural mineral extracts for maximum efficacy, can only do so much. We believe the essence of long-term health and effervescent beauty is to discover who you are and match every aspect of your lifestyle to the essential you.

Too often we allow the rapid pace of life to separate us from our own inner core of what is right for us. By taking just a few minutes every day to reconnect without a essential self we can rediscover the patterns and rhythms that can guide us to a healthier way of life. From this reason each kit comes with a set of simple relaxation exercises, meditations and suggestions for physical exercise that take only minutes to perform along with dietary recommendations designed to enhance the effects of the products.

The above also just happens to be the EXACT text verbatim that was on Hansard's site, so whomever is selling the products also took Hansard and his marketing teams words down to the letter as well as the concept for an entire line of products such as candles, roomsprays, and even meditations accompanying all these.

I am not speaking on behalf of Bowe, even with Bowe out of the way, the question remains. Who has so obviously and blatantly taken over the sales of Hansard's products, and words, not to mention the entire concept and basis behind them? If the allegations turn out at any point in time to be true, and the man has no credentials, then what is that going to do that possibly has not already been done to the reputation of the products?

CF needs to be asking the same questions because he's taking the fall for it.

[mahakala]

Interesting idea that the sellers of the herbal products simply bought a big stash from the liquidators. In, fact, that probably explains it, since to produce a herbal line like that would require they are either buying it from someone else who is already into manufacturing (trophic/wildrose for instance) or start up their own manufacturing. And the fact is, the manufacturing and packaging of such products is not a simple matter.

So indeed, Chris Farmer might be getting the flack for someone else's smudge and blur.