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Admin
2nd April 2006, 02:38 PM
Here's a quick explanation of why the cut-off point for homeopathic remedies containing any active ingredients is at the 12C (24X) potency.

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In chemistry we use a measure known as a “mole” which is simply the molecular weight of a substance in grams. The convenience of using moles is that no matter what the substance is, one mole always contains the same number of atoms or molecules: 6.023x1023 (Avogadro’s number).

As an example, let’s consider the compound Sodium Chloride (common salt). The molecular weight of Sodium Chloride (NaCl) is 58.44, therefore 58.44 grams of NaCl is one mole or 6.023x1023 molecules.

A '1 molar' solution.

This is simply where one mole of substance is dissolved in a total volume of 1 litre of solvent. In our case 58.44 grams of NaCl dissolved in water to a total volume of one litre would give us our starting solution. That is one litre of water that contains 6.023x1023 molecules of Sodium Chloride dissolved in it.

Now that we know how many molecules we have in the starting solution, it’s just a case of keeping track of the numbers.

In “C” potencies, there is a dilution of 1 in 100 at each step. That means that of out of our 1 litre (1000cc) starting solution we take 10cc and dissolve it in another 990cc of water. This means that the number of molecules present reduces by a factor of 100 at each step.

A 1C dilution would therefore contain 6.023x1021 molecules of NaCl.

A 2C dilution would contain 6.023x1019 molecules of NaCl.

A 3C dilution would contain 6.023x1017 molecules of NaCl.

And so on with the number of molecules present reducing by 100 (or 102) with each step.

A 10C dilution would contain 6.023x103 molecules of NaCl; in other words 6023 molecules in the solution.

At 11C we have 60 molecules present.

At 12C we have 0.6 molecules present, or more strictly a probability of 0.6 that 1 molecule is present.

The Avogadro limit.

Once we pass this dilution point, the Avogadro limit, there is no more starting material in the solution. Any dilution beyond 12C (or 24X) simply means that water is being dissolved in more water. This is why homeopathic remedies that have potencies of 30C, and even 200C, are simply ludicrous.

I have done the calculations based on a starting solution that is a 1 molar solution. In reality, homeopaths are unlikely to be starting with a 1 molar solution, especially with the more expensive materials they may use. This means that the point of diluting out all of the starting material will be reached a long time before the 12C dilution.

Mongrel
2nd April 2006, 11:17 PM
I remember a post on the JREF forums that had a handy Dilution Equivalent table, did anyone get a copy of that? I've found it easier when trying to explain 'Why homeopathy is useless' that 12C= 1 drop in an Olympic swimming pool (or similar - I can't look it up since my old hard drive died :() makes it a easier to visualise

Admin
3rd April 2006, 11:43 AM
That explanation is really for those who already understand homeopathy and want to know how the 12C limit is worked out.

I did a dilution equivalence table but I can't find it. >:(

I used a teaspoon of remedy dissolved in things like a bath full of water for 3C to an ocean for 12C and a volume of water that goes beyond the orbit of Jupiter for 30C.

I think there's a table on the Australian skeptics website. It would be useful to put one up as it really does get the point across.

Blue Bubble
12th April 2006, 03:26 PM
I asked Hans Egebo (MRC_Hans) for permission to quote his table on the JREF.
This is a cut-and-paste from http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1127572&postcount=78

I'd like to quote MRC_Hans's table of dilutions related to the real world if Hans kindly agrees:

Here is a short list of potencies where the volume of water to one drop (0.1 ml) is related to something in the real world:

6C = 4 Olympic class swimming-pools.
13C = 3/4 of all Earth's oceans.
16C = Sphere the size of Earth.
19C= 10 Spheres with same diameter as our Solar System
22C = 1 cubic light-year
26C = 1 Sphere with same diameter as the Milky Way

The very popular 30C equals one drop of mother tincture in nearly a hundred million galaxy-sized balls of water .

I really see no reason to go into the hundreds of C. Anybody who cannot see the absurdity in the above is not likely to see it at all .

Mongrel
12th April 2006, 05:13 PM
That was the puppy. Thanks BB O0

Aardvark
29th April 2006, 12:05 PM
What you are failing to grasp is that the water molecules have a memory that the active molecule was once there and therefore behave differently
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Admin
29th April 2006, 12:25 PM
My apologies. I was being rational. :-[

I forgot - this is homeopathy we're talking about here. ;D