The Sceptical 'visitor' to woo forums

[kath23]

I've seen a couple of you say you have accidently strayed onto a forum which you discovered had a woo element, or that you visit a woo forum to encourage critical thinking skills in the woos.

How amusing/enjoyable is sceptical 'visiting'? I'm hesitating to use the word these woos might use about people doing this to them :D

How much do you think it might work as a tool of educating woos?

I just joined a 'new age' forum with the hope of doing this slightly, i don't have the patience to be subtle though, and have almost got thrown off just for my introduction. :o Some of these groups can be very 'suspicious' ;D

[Admin]

I don't do it as such forums are usually a 'closed shop'. If you don't agree with their group-mentality and adopt their position on matters you'll quickly be ganged up on and banned.

I demonstrated this to someone a year or so back by joining a homeopathy forum and giving straight, truthful answers to woos' questions.

A couple of questions I can remember answering were: "is there more to homeopathy that a placebo effect?" and "what's the difference between a 30C remedy and 200C remedy?" (or close to those).

I posted the answers that there is no good evidence to show that homeopathy is anything other than a placebo, and that once the 12C dilution has been passed, all homeopathic remedies are identical - i.e. there are no ingredients left in them.

I was banned in a matter of hours.

Personally, I don't think it achieves much trying to educate non-thinkers in their forums. It just doesn't work. If you state your message clearly you'll get banned, if you try to moderate your messages so that you don't get banned you don't get your point across effectively.

The bottom line though is: no-one will take any notice of you (other than to insult you) as they don't want to hear points of view other than their own.

[Sgt Badass]

Check out my 'Psychic Challenge' thread for an answer. The forum I was a part of was a full on business network, apparently one of the biggest in the world - ecademy.

It used to consist of discussion on a business theme, how legislation effected people etc, however I started to balk when they advertised discount rates to go see 'The Secret'. I watched it, did a bit of reading up on it and was stunned to find it was an advertising piece for a cult and nothing more.

I tried the tack that within an adult and educated bunch of people, this sort of nonsense should be given no discussion, it's just bunkum. Little did I know that it's also a great resale...

Money wins everywhere. Homeopathy cannot be challenged because there's too much money in it for the dealers. Try to challenge it and you're potentially putting their kids out of school.

Same with Ecademy. Challenge their income stream and wham, you upset the apple cart.

I got banned, for what I'm not entirely sure of yet, but it can only have something to do with the fact I challenged them.

I really try not to brand everyone as idiots, but at the end of the day, you gotta wonder...

[kath23]

I really try not to brand everyone as idiots, but at the end of the day, you gotta wonder...


Most people's minds are not open to changing their beliefs especially about people they have 'fallen for' financially and spiritually.

If someone said that one of your mates was a fraud/liar/sexual predator, most people would just back their friend unquestioningly.

I try and keep an open mind and neither idolise or demonise people, but it is hard.

Some people I count as friends have behaved very questionably at times. I just happen to like them! Until they do it to me ;D

Love
Kath
P.S. I've seen people back their gurus despite all evidence to the contrary. They will believe someone is a medical miracle/enigma if that person has an authoritative and charming manner and convinces them of it, despite that person not having been ever diagnosed with a 'physical' illness.

[Sgt Badass]

You've reminded me of something. You mention being 'open minded'. I'm sure it's the bane of most skeptic's life to be branded 'closed minded' and it winds me up no end. The skeptic is generally the most open minded in any conversation, yet the woo always uses this argument.

Someone actually posted a great definition of both closed and open mindedness in the ecad forums. If I get back on I'll try to find it, but even given a definition and pointing out the quite glaring flaws in the woo arguments that were banded about, still they would not yield.

For example, I gave the 'orbiting teapot' example, and asked someone if they believed it. They said "I guess anything is possible". I'll use it again, it's a good indication as to whether it's even worth speaking to anyone.

[Araneus]

"Open minded" is one of those phrases that I refuse to use, because it is not well-defined and hence essentially meaningless.

"Grow up" is another one, it can mean whatever the speaker wishes it to.

[kath23]

I know that's how woos use it, I suppose I meant scepticism or common sense, being open to reason I suppose :)

[Admin]

Don't forget there's a magnificent article on the fallacious use of the term 'open minded' HERE (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=the_open_mind.php).

[median]

I've seen a couple of you say you have accidently strayed onto a forum which you discovered had a woo element, or that you visit a woo forum to encourage critical thinking skills in the woos.

How amusing/enjoyable is sceptical 'visiting'? I'm hesitating to use the word these woos might use about people doing this to them

How much do you think it might work as a tool of educating woos?

Education cannot be used, in a sense, as a one way tool. Personally I do not approach any discussion with the aim of claiming a prior superior viewpoint. There is always the possibility that you enter a debate with a person with greater knowledge or a different but salient perspective and as such must always be willing to revise your opinions.

That withstanding, in a lot of such forums there is a wide range of people with a various understanding of skepticism and a lot of people seem to 'sit on the fence' so to speak and as such are open to different viewpoints.

It is engaging with these, rather than the 'hardened woo' that can be productive

[Admin]

It is engaging with these, rather than the 'hardened woo' that can be productive


I think that's more the case if a woo topic turns up on a general forum. Then it's more likely that neutral readers will see it.

Believers' forums tend to be read only by believers and skeptics' forums tend to only get read by skeptics. Sounds obvious, but there's not likely to be a lot of neutral readers as they won't be attracted to such forums.

It's just my personal opinion (although one based on experience) but I think that posting on woo forums as a way of tackling general woo is not an effective way to do it. It's focusing on the wrong audience - preaching to the damned basically.

You can end up spending a lot of time and effort developing great arguments that get dismissed/ignored/deleted by those who don't want to hear them whilst the neutral people who would benefit most from following such arguments are not reading.

Like I said, that's my take on it. I think it's a lot of effort for minimal return.

[Araneus]

You can end up spending a lot of time and effort developing great arguments that get dismissed/ignored/deleted by those who don't want to hear them whilst the neutral people who would benefit most from following such arguments are not reading.

Exactly. Like the saying goes, "Don't bother arguing with an idiot. He will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience".

[median]

It's just my personal opinion (although one based on experience) but I think that posting on woo forums as a way of tackling general woo is not an effective way to do it. It's focusing on the wrong audience - preaching to the damned basically.

You can end up spending a lot of time and effort developing great arguments that get dismissed/ignored/deleted by those who don't want to hear them whilst the neutral people who would benefit most from following such arguments are not reading.


Agreed, it can be very frustrating. So, John, how exactly do you propose a more productive way in dealing with this sort of thing?

[Admin]

So, John, how exactly do you propose a more productive way in dealing with this sort of thing?


I knew someone would ask this >:( - you're banned :P ;D

Erm, we're working on it - that's not a cop-out btw, we're really looking at the best options on how to advance the skeptical outlook on life. O0

It's not an easy problem to solve, but those of us at the core of UKS are actively looking into what we can do to advance the cause of skepticism/critical thinking.

We're looking to identify our target audience for a start (!)

[bruno.j]

I knew someone would ask this >:( - you're banned :P ;D

Erm, we're working on it - that's not a cop-out btw, we're really looking at the best options on how to advance the skeptical outlook on life. O0

It's not an easy problem to solve, but those of us at the core of UKS are actively looking into what we can do to advance the cause of skepticism/critical thinking.

We're looking to identify our target audience for a start (!)


hi all - may i ask given the above - what decisions have you come to as to the "target audience " - are these to be those who are already sceptical ? - the fence sitters ? - or the out and out woo's ? - reading through the forums i note that frequently there is reference to the "closed shop " mentality - er could not UKS be accused of the same thing ? ( at times ?? ) - if say someone who was "undecided " joined - then would you try and convince them of the correctness of your arguments - ? or would they be free to make up their own mind as to the validity of YOUR arguments ??-

like wise the question of proof - there is much criticism of wooish arguments lacking "proof " - but can any one give me 100 % scientific ( or other ) "proof " that say there is NOT an afterlife - or that ghosts /spirits DO NOT exist - i am not talking personal opinions here - but the level of proof that would convince the majority of the populous

just doing a bit of fence sitting here and playing "devils advocate " out of interest you understand O0

bruno.j

[Admin]

hi all - may i ask given the above - what decisions have you come to as to the "target audience " - are these to be those who are already sceptical ? - the fence sitters ? - or the out and out woo's ?

Our target audience would be the general public or specialist groups; such as haunting investigators.


reading through the forums i note that frequently there is reference to the "closed shop " mentality - er could not UKS be accused of the same thing ? ( at times ?? ) - if say someone who was "undecided " joined - then would you try and convince them of the correctness of your arguments - ? or would they be free to make up their own mind as to the validity of YOUR arguments ??-

I don't know of anyone who argues a position they don't believe is true!

Remember, this is a forum and the views put forward on here are the views of the members - that doesn't mean it's UKS policy.

A skeptical forum is only likely to attract skeptics and those who oppose skeptics. Your average person has no particular reason to be attracted to such a place. The result will be a lot of threads where we discuss things from our own point of view mixed in with confrontation where believers come in to have a pop.

That's the nature of forums. It doesn't mean that confrontation is UKS policy though - it's not.


like wise the question of proof - there is much criticism of wooish arguments lacking "proof " - but can any one give me 100 % scientific ( or other ) "proof " that say there is NOT an afterlife - or that ghosts /spirits DO NOT exist - i am not talking personal opinions here - but the level of proof that would convince the majority of the populous

Can you prove that invisible pink unicorns don't exist?

The answer's no.

To make such a claim is to make the Argument to Ignorance (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=argumentum_ad_ignorantiam.php) fallacy.

[fruitfly]

Parallel universe:

http://www.thepsychicbarber.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=403

[bruno.j]

hi john - thank you for your reply - so i must be a rare beast then - an average person looking for answers - be they from the sceptical side or the woo side - humm this is going to be more difficult than i though - i had hoped that one side or the other would have some "proof " to back up their respective stance - however this seems not to be the case - just views which of course depend on ones standpoint be that sceptic or woo .

i must confess your "argument to ignorance " is an interesting piece - and i will have to consider this some more

again many thanks

Bruno .j

[Admin]

i had hoped that one side or the other would have some "proof " to back up their respective stance - however this seems not to be the case - just views which of course depend on ones standpoint be that sceptic or woo .

No, that's not the case at all. Skeptics base their stance on issues based on evidence. See: What is Skepticism? (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=what_is_skepticism.php)

It really is not simply a matter of opinion.

[Zaira]

I would like to comment on this one. My beliefs have been growing with me for many, many years. It will take more than a visit to a forum, any forum, to alter them in any way. So no one is about to change my mind or convince me to become a skeptic. Having said that, I can still get a lot out of my visit. What I get out of it will depend on my attitude and my reason for being here.

"A skeptical forum is only likely to attract Skeptics and those who oppose Skeptics." - John

With respect, John. I disagree. I think it also attracts people who are curious about Skeptics, people who might not completely understand what skepticism means, and people who have genuine questions about their own beliefs.

:smiley:

[MRT]

I visit 'believer' forums seeking interesting evidence. There are often reports of new cases and experiences to be found there (far more than on a skeptical forum, for instance). It is always useful to test current theories against this evidence, in case they need modifying. Constantly testing theories against evidence is standard scientific practice. Of course, you need to be careful to check that the evidence is accurate and you may need to quiz people for details, as their beliefs may sometimes affect their observations.

I think if you go such forums looking for new information, as I do, it is a useful experience. If, however, you go on them to 'impart wisdom' you are likely to annoy and get annoyed.

[Zaira]

MRT,

"I think if you go such forums looking for new information, as I do, it is a useful experience. If, however, you go on them to 'impart wisdom' you are likely to annoy and get annoyed."

This is very true and I'm guilty of this. I have gone on forums where what they talk about is familiar to me but their explanation for it isn't. I only wanted to share my ideas. I have been banned from a couple of forums and, unintentionally, upset quite a few people.

In my defence, I really thought I was helping. It's only recently that I realised that I have my ideas and they have theirs and neither the twain shall meet. A bit like on here. :smiley:

[bindeweede]

Zaira,

I was having an out-of-body experience and almost astral-travelled away yesterday, so I grounded myself and got cantered with the help of my spirit guides and then the phone rang, and sensing the negative vibrations, I threw the I-Ching and checked my numerology chart and nearly had a primal, but my energy was too blocked.

So I did some bio-energetics and self-parenting, took some flower essences and ate an organic oat bran ginseng muffin but my inner child wasn't feeling nurtured yet so I had a Rice Dream 'Frozen Pie' too, but that made me hyper so I did the relaxation response technique I had just learned at the Self Healing Angst Tree Defoliating Centre while listening to my subliminal tapes.

But that left me feeling depersonalized so I did some polarity work, foot reflexology and past life regression, then re-birthed myself and called Moon Beam, my body worker, to make an appointment for a Shiatsu/ Reike/ Rolfing/ Feldenkreis/ Swedish/ Japanese deep tissue massage, but she flaked out and never returned my call, so I decided to energize my crystals and do some positive imagery because all my visualization techniques and affirmations made my space feel invaded.

So to get empowered, I got a psychic reading from Mother Heart Love around the issue of my assertiveness so I could feel my radiance and have some energy for my psycho callisthenics and inversion swing before my harmonic brain wave synergy session. This made me more focused for my actualization seminar, holistic healing class and dream workshop, which in turn, made me clearer for my Gestalt behavioural cognitive transpersonal Rechian-Jungian- Freudian-Ericksonian session at the hot springs, but my aura was too weak for my trance channelling group, so I fasted until noon to recharge my chakras.

At that point, I sensed my intuition was high and my cycle was focused, so I turned on my ion generator to open up my Neural Linguistic Programming session. But I needed to have my pyramid recharged before my guided synchronicity meditation, so I got some craniosacral therapy, which aligned me for the fire walk between my tarot card reading and my sensory deprivation tank appointment.

But even after all that, I felt what I truly needed was a meaningful relationship to mirror myself so I went to my personal shaman, and then to my guru, but they were no help, so instead I went to the Intensive Whole Life Earth Rebirth Cosmic Expo Symposium Workshop to find someone who really knew what was going on, but that didn't work either, so I locked myself in a calcium coated Orgone Box and went to sleep so I could "get it" in the dream state.

All was lost until I had a colour aromatherapy treatment and then had Tantric sex with my soul mate who taught me the technique of creating abundance with my sacred space.

...what a great sense of humour you do have.



If you want to be transported to another dimension, please listen to Richard Strauss's "Four Last Songs". It might be a style of music you are not familiar with, but, believe me, if you persevere, the words and music will knock your socks off. And if you are interested, of the six different recordings I have, and the dozens there are out there, my fave is by the German soprano Gundula Janowitz.

EDIT. If you look it up in a catalogue, the German title is "Vier letzte Lieder".

[bindeweede]

Zaira,

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/keynotes/story/0,11111,777815,00.html

The Finnish gal is good too.

The celestial-toned Gundula Janowitz, however, approaches my Straussian ideal. If only she and Karajan had been less becalmed in the first song, "Frühling", and "Beim Schlafengehen" (DG 439 467-2).
The Finnish soprano Soile Isokoski shares something of Janowitz's silvery sheen. But while her conductor, Marek Janowski, savours the sensuality of Strauss's textures, he always allows the music its natural flow.
Isokoski has all the attributes of a supreme Straussian soprano: a radiantly beautiful voice, unblemished legato, lustrous high notes and the ability to float those sumptuous phrases on apparently limitless supplies of breath.
Isokoski's performance is one of rare grace and lyrical tenderness, soaring ecstatically in "Frühling", sensitive without indulgence to the resigned, autumnal moods of the later songs. Her hushed, rapt singing of the final presentiment of death sets the seal on a great performance, moving in its luminous vocal beauty and emotional sincerity. Richard Wigmore

[Zaira]

Tom,

Thanks I'll check out that music.

I didn't write the other thing I just thought is was really good. :smiley:

[bindeweede]

Tom,
Thanks I'll check out that music.
I didn't write the other thing I just thought is was really good. :smiley:

Well, yesterday, I listened to 3 of the best recordings I have of the 4 Last Songs. Jessye Norman has a fabulous voice, but just a bit too heavy for these songs, in my opinion. Isokoski's performance is good, with an excellent recording, but the re-mastered recording by Janowitz is the one that does it for me. Hopefully, you might be able to borrow it from your local library. If not, I might be able to sort something out, for study purposes only.

Just let me know.

[Zaira]

Tom,

I like the sound of that. Not too keen on library search, been there done that - I like to own it. Does that make sense?

[bobdezon]

Sceptical views are considered almost heretical on those types of forums. You are effectively destroying their entire world viewpoint by producing evidence to counteract the claims they believe in. New members to the forum not yet indoctrinated into the woo will often post in your thread wanting to know more, and as you are snaffling sheep from the flock of woo you get banned.

[Zaira]

bobdezon,

I know what you are saying. I feel like I'm hanging on here by the skin of my teeth. I'm one of those sitting on the fence. I'm much older than most who are still determined to hold onto what they believe to be the truth. Whatever is going on, I'm perhaps exploring it honestly for the first time. I like to confront people who seem to have similar beliefs, I try to get them to look at it from different angles. Not having much luck. This doesn't surprise me because I was the same.

[bruno.j]

Sceptical views are considered almost heretical on those types of forums. You are effectively destroying their entire world viewpoint by producing evidence to counteract the claims they believe in. New members to the forum not yet indoctrinated into the woo will often post in your thread wanting to know more, and as you are snaffling sheep from the flock of woo you get banned.

well look at it this way stealing sheep has always been frowned on - at least ways you dont get hanged for stealing woo-ley sheep ;D

O0 bruno.j

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Parallel universe:

http://www.thepsychicbarber.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=403

That's funny.The site seems to be down.

The Curse of Gnome strikes again?

[bindeweede]

That's funny.The site seems to be down.

The Curse of Gnome strikes again?

I visited the place earlier today. Members were complaining about spam - porn links and picking up viruses. Perhaps it is down for maintenance. I did notice they don't have a moderator, which I don't think is a good idea. Also, as the place is full of psychics, how is it they didn't see it coming?

[seren]

snaffling sheep from the flock of woo


;D Love it. I hereby claim that as my signature.

[bobdezon]

;D Love it. I hereby claim that as my signature.


You are more than welcome seren ;)