Have any of you ever seen a ghost/ had a psychic vision or summat?

[kath23]

I've never 'seen' or heard anything otherworldly, though I tried for decades. I believe and know that others do though.

Have you?

[misterpoet]

hey!

i've seen many "dead" people... or ghosts... or apparitions... whatever you'd like to call them.

the scarest one i've seen was on my grandmothers hill - it was grey and had long hair and raggidy cloths.

the second scariest one i've seen walked across the road to my grandmothers house, then i seen it beside her house. i knocked on her door and heard a voice say " it's okay, i'm coming " so i waited. nothing happened. so i knocked again and my grandmother said her usall thing. i asked her and she said she didn't hear me.

the creepest one i've seen - it was with some friends - and we were sitting under a light and it was in the woods - and you could hear it and then about 200 feet away you could hear it again. and it had red eyes.

i've seen one walking down the road. it was about a foot tall with red eyes.

once i was lying on the couch and a man walked in the door, through my feet and through the wall into my grandmothers bedroom.

there was a ghost i've seen three times in my bedroom. it's a little boy.
the first time i seen him i woke up and he was there.
the second time i seen him i had my dog with me and she started going crazy so i looked up and he was infront of the mirror.
the third time he was sitting in the chair in the bedroom.

...

that's enough for now!

[Dr B]

Is there any evidence for these sightings over an above your anecdotes?

Were others involved? Had others seen the same stuff? Any other witnesses from any other instances?

How do you explain such experiences?

[asthmatic camel]

Nothing, ever. Not even the slightest sniff of a sprite nor the poorest precognitive perception; I'm afraid I'm not "gifted." My sometime fiancée, however, is extremely gifted in her ability to perceive things which others could not; her particular gift is known as paranoid schizophrenia.

[Admin]

I once saw a UFO. :o

It was in broad daylight and I was going to my friend's house after school (age about 15) and I saw a large trapezium shaped object moving fairly slowly across the sky. It was a sort of red light for about a second and then invisible for a second and was flashing on and off as it moved. It went behind a cloud and I followed the expected trajectory but it never re-emerged at the other side! ???

I've never seen anything like it before or since either personally or in literature.

I have no idea what it was but I expect it was some sort of optical illusion.

Or..... :alien:

[Richard King]

Seen a Ghost?
The term covers several possibilities in terms of causes so cannot give a definitive answer.

Had a Psychic Vision?
The term could cover a multitude of events, phenomena, depending on definitions and perspectives – in excess of two thousand hours of experiences but what they are is very varied and depends on interpretation.

Summat?
I leave such things to Chris Bonnington, et al.

[misterpoet]

I have no idea what it was but I expect it was some sort of optical illusion.



it was the moon.

[kath23]

Now I remember I did once see a ghost cat I think, a friends cat that had died. I thought it was her 'real' cat, as it looked very like it, only a bit bigger. I only saw it from the back as it walked towards the door. But then I looked round and the 'real' cat was over the other end of the bathroom :o

It was night so it was quite dark though I suppose.

[asthmatic camel]

Now I remember I did once see a ghost cat I think, a friends cat that had died. I thought it was her 'real' cat, as it looked very like it, only a bit bigger. I only saw it from the back as it walked towards the door. But then I looked round and the 'real' cat was over the other end of the bathroom :o

It was night so it was quite dark though I suppose.


Does your friend normally keep dead cats in her bathroom? ;)

[Dr B]

I once came home late at night to find the stairs were spinning and the romm was moving.....I was of course, totally pissed at the time ;D

[kath23]

LOL ;D

[sonofajoiner]

I once came home late at night to find the stairs were spinning and the romm was moving.....I was of course, totally pissed at the time ;D


Work that into a challenge application and Randi's money is as good as yours!

WRT to the OP, I have experienced a number of weird/vaguely spooky events which I put down to ghosts etc at the time but which I've since found alternative explanations which make more sense. The vast majority took place at night, nearly always as I was falling asleep (or having woken suddenly in the night) and always during a period of general stress/upset.

The most persistent 'haunting' occurred over a number of years after we moved into a new house on a newly built estate. I hated being alone in the house and always felt uneasy and anxious. It felt as though there was a constant 'presence', watching and waiting in the background (we referred to it as 'Fred' ::) ). We saw shadows moving around the house, heard footsteps on the stairs and so on. Visitors to the house commented on an oppressive feeling etc..
The estate was next to an industrial estate and a huge refrigeration unit had been built on the boundary between the two. We lived a few streets away from it. But residents in the houses nearest to the unit complained that their lives were blighted by a constant humming noise caused by the company's industrial freezers. They successfully sued the company, forcing them to properly insulate and sound-proof their building. As soon as this happened, 'Fred' disappeared. I'm not scientifically literate enough to explain the connection, but I've seen enough tv shows/newspaper articles to speculate that the haunting in our house had been due to some sort of low frequency vibrations gone awry.

[Dene]

Hi

Yes I had my first experience about 50 years ago when I saw my (just) deceased Grandmother in spirit form sitting at the foot of my bed when I was about 8. I know I was awake.

Last night I attended a physical seance and heard direct voice from several spirit people, heard much banging and clattering as they came and went, saw an ectoplasmic form materialise outside of the cabinet which spoke to several people and shook hands with them etc

No spoof - I am throwing my hat in the ring as a Spiritualist !

Please keep looking, with an open mind and with all your critical faculties operating and you will come to understand that we are more than a carbon unit and are spirit as well as physical beings !

Of course I am not sad and deluded - but I would say that wouldn't I ?

[tkingdoll]

Hi Dene,
Welcome to the forum!

Couple of questions re the spirit of your dead grandmother:

1) How do you 'know' you were awake?

2) Have you got a photographic memory and if not, how can you rely on a 50-year old memory? (I recently had a blazing argument with my sister because I was so sure that a childhood toy was blue when she clearly recalls it as red).

3) Who was running the seance that you attended?

4) Did you pay to attend the seance?

That's it for now, look forward to discussing this with you!

[Admin]

Hello Dene and welcome.

I'd be interested to know more about the séance.

Who held it, where, under what conditions, etc.?

I think most of us would consider physical mediumship to be the least convincing evidence of an afterlife by far; but if you can explain why it is that such a séance convinced you we'll be happy to listen. O0

Was there any information that came though or was it the conditions of the séance that was convincing?

[Dene]

Hi John / tkingdoll

Physical mediumship is an alternative to mental mediumship because phenomena can be experienced by everyone and not just by clairvoyants. At this particular seance there was little evidence by way of "messages" - the sitters would not necessarily be needing this type of evidence.
Instead the phenomena proved to me that spirits can communicate directly and appear to a number of people at the same time.

The seance was at Cheltenham by the Medium Warren Caylor from Jenny's Sanctuary see web site and seance reports.

The normal conditions applied - everyone searched and a metal detector used, nothing taken into the room, medium installed in a curtained cabinet, tied to the arms of a chair by velcro strips and plastic cable ties, gagged with a hood over the head, tied to the chair by rope at ankles and waist.

So basically it was the ability of spirit activity and materialisation that was the proof - but in fairness most people attending a sitters have had sufficient proof of the afterlife before they become interested in physical phenomena.

I certainly wouldn't claim an infallible memeory but perhaps the early memories are the deepest rooted ? But my reply was to the question "has anyone had an experience" this I know to be my experience.

Yes there was a charge.

I am not setting out to try and convince anyone of anything. I am responding honestly to questions
that are honestly asked. But my experience can never be your proof, you must get that for yourself.

[Jocky]

Hi Dene,

Allow me to join Teek and John in welcoming you to UKS!


Please keep looking, with an open mind and with all your critical faculties operating and you will come to understand that we are more than a carbon unit and are spirit as well as physical beings !

Skeptics are by definition open-minded - don't confuse 'skeptical' with 'cynical'! Scientific skepticism is about establishing the validity of claims on the basis of evidence - and of being willing to re-evaluate positions if new evidence comes to light.

The available evidence for the validity of physical mediumship does not corroborate the claims made by its proponents - and therefore skeptics do not accept its reality. However, if valid reproducible evidence which did support such claims could be gathered, then they could (and would) be reexamined in that light.

Does that seem reasonably open-minded to you (and if not, why not)?

I see that you have already attended physical seances and aquired some subjective experience of physical mediumship. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us, and I for one would be most interested to discuss this in more detail if you would care to do so.


The seance was at Cheltenham by the Medium Warren Caylor from Jenny's Sanctuary see web site and seance reports.

Am I looking in the right place here (http://www.jennyssanctuary.org.uk/webframes.htm)? I can't see a report for a seance in Cheltenham here, but maybe it hasn't been posted yet.


the phenomena proved to me that spirits can communicate directly and appear to a number of people at the same time ... basically it was the ability of spirit activity and materialisation that was the proof ... [the] medium [was] installed in a curtained cabinet, tied to the arms of a chair by velcro strips and plastic cable ties, gagged with a hood over the head, tied to the chair by rope at ankles and waist.

A big difficulty in accepting such experiences as evidence of spirit activity is that the typical circumstances of a physical seance do not eliminate the possibility of mundane techniques being used to produce the phenomena. The sort of techniques commonly used by stage magicians and escapologists provide an valid alternative explanation for phenomena reported in seances, and therefore this evidence is only admissable if the seance is held under circumstances where such techniques would be physically impossible.


most people attending as sitters have had sufficient proof of the afterlife before they become interested in physical phenomena.

Yes, you have put you finger on another difficulty in regarding testimony of seance sitters as valid evidence - there is a danger that their recollection will be effected by confirmation bias (http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html). This occurs when an observer subconsciously reinterprets something they experience in order to make it conform to a preconcieved idea.

Of course, this danger could apply to any observer, believer or skeptic - which is why valid evidence of physical mediumship would have to be gathered in an objective manner, not relying on any one individual's interpretation of it.

[Dene]

Hi Jocky

I am pleased to reply to your comments, firstly I did not mean to say that all sceptics are cynics. We are all individuals and it would be grossly unfair to generalise and categorise people.

Regarding the available evidence for the verification of physical phenomena and a skeptics willingness to re-evaluate a position in the light of new information/knowledge is of course reasonable.

The most thorough scientific investigation into physical mediumship in recent years was the investigation by eminent members of the SPR into the sittings of the Scole Group, which were held over a period of 2 years (31 seances). I recommend that anyone interested in the scientific investigation of phenomena to search on the web and read about it, or buy one of the books on it.

Physical phenomena is unfortunately not reproducible on demand, it is not an automatic process. The medium can only try their best and sometimes it doesn't work. This hardly accords with the scientific method but we must remember that we are dealing with human beings.

The Cheltenham seance was on the 23rd Feb. Not all seances are written up but I hope this one will be. My comment referred to existing reports already on the site, which you may find interesting.

The argument that stage magicians and escapologists is difficult to refute in theory, in practice it is simply argued that these mediums are not highly trained world class magicians or escapologists. There is evidence in the literature of highly accomplished magicians stating that they were convinced it was not trickery and could not reproduce the phenomena they witnessed.

[Araneus]

The argument that stage magicians and escapologists is difficult to refute in theory, in practice it is simply argued that these mediums are not highly trained world class magicians or escapologists.

Of course, the skeptical response to that position is that the mediums are highly trained magicians, but choose not to admit it for obvious reasons. It would no doubt be extremely difficult as a medium to convince your sitters that the phenomena were real if you were known to be an accomplished conjuror.


There is evidence in the literature of highly accomplished magicians stating that they were convinced it was not trickery and could not reproduce the phenomena they witnessed.

I am sure there are -- however it only requires ONE magician to be able to replicate the phenomena using trickery to undermine the contention that they cannot be explained in this way. I don't have any references unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, phenomena thus far seen in a seance have been successfully replicated by at least one stage magician.

[Dr B]

Hiya Dene & welcome to the UKS forum.



The most thorough scientific investigation into physical mediumship in recent years was the investigation by eminent members of the SPR into the sittings of the Scole Group, which were held over a period of 2 years (31 seances). I recommend that anyone interested in the scientific investigation of phenomena to search on the web and read about it, or buy one of the books on it.

Indeed. I read the rebuttal from Richard Wiseman I think (my memory is poor as to who wrote it) which certainly gives one food for thought from a more skeptical view.


The medium can only try their best and sometimes it doesn't work. This hardly accords with the scientific method but we must remember that we are dealing with human beings.

I am sure we would all appreciate that these things, like many other things, cannot be done on demand. Thats why science would want to run a host of tests to investigate this properly. Imagine we ran an experiment and, a 'successful' seance took place. Does this prove anything? Well, on its own no. However, repeated attempts (irrespective of whether the first attempt was successful or not) is the way to go. I think the point I am making is that science would never expect it to happen on demand per-se - but it should happen at some point and we should prepare for that eventuality with sound methods capable of revealing something important about the object of study O0



The argument that stage magicians and escapologists is difficult to refute in theory, in practice it is simply argued that these mediums are not highly trained world class magicians or escapologists.

I think the idea that mediums could not be expert is difficult to prove as well :D. However, the real question is - which is most likely?



There is evidence in the literature of highly accomplished magicians stating that they were convinced it was not trickery and could not reproduce the phenomena they witnessed.


That sounds really interesting - could you provide us with a reference as I am sure many here would like to look at that O0

Take it easy, and once again, welcome O0

[Dene]

Hi folks

I think I have taken this topic off track

The original question was have you seen a ghost had a paranormal experience etc. In my original reply I said yes I had seen an apparition at 8 years old and the day before (for example). This then led us to discuss physical mediumship. Not really within the scope of the question, which was about one's own experience.

I was not at Scole but offer what I believe to be the most the definitive, skeptical investigation into paranormal phenomena through a medium. Can I ask if anyone has read the reports (not 3rd party reviews) ?

Magicians who have seen phenomena and said that they believed it to be genuine include:
Robert Houdin on Alexis Didier, on DD Home,
Bosco on DD Home
Canti on DD Home
Hamilton on the Davenport Brothers
Harry Kellar on Eglinton
Jacobs on the Davenport Brothers
Will Goldston on Rudi Schneider, on Hazel Ridley, on Helen Duncan, on Maskelyne

While we can quote studies and references all day to me the personal experience is most valid. As I stated earlier the topic was raised on personal experience.

As a skeptic I was interested in mediumship and the after life, I had lots of evidence from readings etc, which convinced me of the afterlife. I then read the Scole reports and other literature e.g. Tom Harrison on his home circle. I decided to find out for myself if this stuff was genuine and if it was still happening, and if at all possible experience it for myself.

[Cuddles]

I don't know about the rest, but the Davenport brothers have been so seriously debunked it's not even funny. In fact, not only were they debunked while still alive, but Ira Davenport actually admitted that the spiritulistic claims were all just part of the act. The wiki acrticle has a decect, if short, review of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davenport_Brothers

[Dr B]

Hiya Dene




The original question was have you seen a ghost had a paranormal experience etc. In my original reply I said yes I had seen an apparition at 8 years old and the day before (for example). This then led us to discuss physical mediumship. Not really within the scope of the question, which was about one's own experience.

Indeed, and I think everyone respects that.



I was not at Scole but offer what I believe to be the most the definitive, skeptical investigation into paranormal phenomena through a medium. Can I ask if anyone has read the reports (not 3rd party reviews) ?


But as you were not there - you are offering a third-party view are you not? Actually, there is nothing wrong with this as it means we are all likely to be more objective. I have read the published reports in the SPR and the rebuttal's in the same journal. I personally find the whole Scole thing deeply flawed - but as you say, thats tangential to this discussion. O0



Magicians who have seen phenomena and said that they believed it to be genuine include:
Robert Houdin on Alexis Didier, on DD Home,
Bosco on DD Home
Canti on DD Home
Hamilton on the Davenport Brothers
Harry Kellar on Eglinton
Jacobs on the Davenport Brothers
Will Goldston on Rudi Schneider, on Hazel Ridley, on Helen Duncan, on Maskelyne


I would really need to see references to verify this. I think a good deal of these cases have been debunked.



While we can quote studies and references all day to me the personal experience is most valid. As I stated earlier the topic was raised on personal experience.


I disagree, but it is a common misconception. Personal anecdotal experience is the most flawed and not reliable. Objective evidence is the most reliable source. Of course, observations can be more objective if done within the correct framework. Scole would not constitute being called 'correct' in that sense (i.e., a scientific sense).



As a skeptic I was interested in mediumship and the after life, I had lots of evidence from readings etc, which convinced me of the afterlife.

That is really interesting. I wonder whether you have thought of alternative views and considered them. For example, what evidence would you need or like to see, that would convince you the readings are not genuine or are flawed in some manner?



I then read the Scole reports and other literature e.g. Tom Harrison on his home circle. I decided to find out for myself if this stuff was genuine and if it was still happening, and if at all possible experience it for myself.


I would suggest reading everything on this project for a truly balanced picture. That means looking at the more skeptical reports on the procedure etc before making a judgement on it. As I remember it, Scole resisted controls and even requests for infrared cameras to be installed as it was claimed the spirits would know..... :D and would suppress phenomena. I remain skeptical because the controls would remove the chance of fraud and Scole did not want that (I wonder why ::)). While the chance of fraud remains present, it remains far more probable an explanation than a paranormal one.

[Admin]

The normal conditions applied - everyone searched and a metal detector used


And light bulbs removed? ;) (see: http://www.tonyyouens.com/colinfry.htm for the reason they do this).

Do these "normal conditions" not raise the slightest doubt about the genuineness of such a séance? They do for me.

It seems like they're making absolutely sure that anything that could be done to expose their trickery is being accounted for. I wonder what things would look like on an infra-red camera for instance.

You've referred to yourself as a skeptic!! What alternative explanations have you come up with to the spiritual explanation?

[Dene]

Hi

I think this is a very useful discussion and hope people are getting something out of it. I am learning to fine tune my words a bit more !

Yes light bulbs are removed or switches disabled to prevent inappropriate use. This is to protect the medium who may be in a very deep trance and producing ectoplasm. This is said to burn the body if abruptly retuned to it. There are attempts being made to sit in the light and I have seen a very low level of white light used to show materialisation which hopefully can be developed to reasonable levels.
Removing light bulbs doesn't worry me as to the genuiness of the phenomena, if these are the conditions required. There are infra red photos of materialisations in Tom Harrison's book.

The best possible evidence is when information is given at a reading that is unknown to the sitter and is confirmed later. An example from 6th sense was when Colin Fry gave a message to a woman concerning a shoe box in her deceased mother's house containing an envelope within which were 3 Roman coins. This was confirmed as correct at the follow up interview. This could not have been telepathy, the information must have come from another source.

There is a problem in assessing our own experience because of course we unknowingly filter what we see and hear etc to conform to a self serving pattern. So if our own perception is susceptible to misinterpretation do we then rely on second hand information from others who have also filtered it ?
Bit of a problem - any ideas ?

Alternative explanations for mental mediumship:

lucky guesses combined with cold reading
prior knowledge of the sitter undisclosed by the medium
very generalised information
leading questions from the medium answered by the sitter

Alternative explanations of (some) physical phenomena:

fraud by hidden loudspeakers, blacked out accomplices moving items about, trumpets on sticks etc
hypnotism or hallucination
hysteria
peer pressure/need to belong to a "tribe"
power of suggestion
normal sounds and lights being misinterpreted, particularly in a heightened atmosphere

[Araneus]

Alternative explanations for mental mediumship:

lucky guesses combined with cold reading
prior knowledge of the sitter undisclosed by the medium
very generalised information
leading questions from the medium answered by the sitter

Alternative explanations of (some) physical phenomena:

fraud by hidden loudspeakers, blacked out accomplices moving items about, trumpets on sticks etc
hypnotism or hallucination
hysteria
peer pressure/need to belong to a "tribe"
power of suggestion
normal sounds and lights being misinterpreted, particularly in a heightened atmosphere

That's very interesting, you seem to have a good grasp of some of the possible mundane explanations for the phenomena. The obvious follow on question is: what reasons do you have for rejecting these in favour of a paranormal explanation?

[tkingdoll]

A further few questions to Dene following Araneus's last post:

Given that mediums and psychics have come forward and admitted that they use the alternative methods you listed there, how do you tell the difference between a 'genuine' medium and one employing trickery and cold reading? We know the latter exists because people have come forward and confessed.

And, further to that, how do you explain that magicians (and in fact anyone with a little training or practice) can replicate the effects that mediums produce and completely fool an audience (who would never be any the wiser if the magician did not explain it was a trick)?

What I mean is, if people can and are fooled by known fakers, how do you a) know that there is such a thing as a genuine medium and b) that you have chosen one of the genuine ones and not the fakers?

And finally, this is a crucial question for me: what, if anything, would it take to convince you that it's more likely the seance you went to was a fake than genuine?

[Dene]

Hi

Some interesting questions

I don't know how I could explain how magicians manage to dupe people at a seance without having been there. Was there any report written by them ? I read in the question an assumption that all phenomena is reproducible and capable of convincing an audience. What if there are situations that could not be reproduced by a magician such as materialisations that have a nebulous character but are at the same time warm and solid and can talk to sitters as they shake hands? From this I consider that there are genuine mediums.

Why on the balance of probabilities come down on the side of survival ? Because if the possibility of survival is given serious consideration then sometimes this is the most likely explanation. I cannot think of another explanation for the materialisation.

[Araneus]

What if there are situations that could not be reproduced by a magician such as materialisations that have a nebulous character but are at the same time warm and solid and can talk to sitters as they shake hands? From this I consider that there are genuine mediums.

If there actually were situations that cannot be replicated by a magician, or otherwise explained via natural causes (including autosuggestion or even the administration of hallucinogens), then this might well constitute some possible evidence in favour of the paranormal. However, I am not aware of any reliably-documented instances of this happening, and as I am sure you are already aware, the fact that you may be unable to figure out a mundane explanation for a particular experience does not mean that one could not be provided by somebody more familiar with the techniques involved.

You seem to be making a pretty big leap of faith in order to accept the paranormal despite the impressive list of alternative explanations you yourself have provided, which I for one find very curious.

[Admin]

Well Dene,

Several types of 'manifestation kits' are available from magic retailers; and simple tricks like 'shaking hands with the dead' can be achieved by cooling your hand on a small rubber water-bottle filled with crushed ice to get that icy hand.

On a simpler level, noises and bangs can be made using a child's peashooter.

Also, of course, Jenny's sanctuary is a purpose built venue - something else that seems rather dubious to me along with their 'normal conditions' of searching everyone etc.

[Araneus]

Another thing Dene -- supposing, for the sake of argument, we accept that the manifestation was real and cannot be explained by everyday means. How does this prove, or even support, the notion of survival beyond death, rather than (for example) the existence of a parallel spirit world full of mischievous entities who enjoy pretending to be dead humans? It's not like there is only one possible paranormal explanation, there could be any number of them, possibly an infinite variety.

[Dene]

Hi Folks

Just a quick reply - I am working away for a couple of days

I haven't seen any manifestation kits (knowingly !) but just a couple of comments on the latest replies.

There is a lot of evidence in the literature (and Google Video) from Tom Harrison whose family members manifested regularly. I was verystruck by the similarities of description from TH and what I have seen.

What are manifestation kits made of ? If they work on the premise of a cold clammy hand by filling a rubber glove with cold water for example then this presents an example of fraud, because spirit manifestation is dry, warm, solid and of a strong physical character.

Mischievous spirits - good point. The TH reports are of identified and identifiable deceased family members. On the spirit side precautions are allegedly taken to protect sitters from unwanted spirit "gatecrashers" and there have been reported instances where the procedures have been closed early by spirit guides because of this being attempted.

The leap of faith may be a reasonable conclusion reached on the evidence available, of course there may be extremely clever and sophisticated techniques that could be devised but not a glove filled with cold water.

[chillzero]

Dene,
You mention Colin Fry as someone you seem to think is genuine.

Years ago you are probably aware that the lights were switched on at one of his seances, to find him free fo the chair and using a trumpet to make noise.

Skeptics claim this is evidence of fraud.

Colin Fry claims that a spirit overtook him and used him to make it appear as fraud, to feed the skeptics.

Which explanation do you believe, and why?

[Araneus]

On the spirit side precautions are allegedly taken to protect sitters from unwanted spirit "gatecrashers" and there have been reported instances where the procedures have been closed early by spirit guides because of this being attempted.

The operative word being "allegedly". Perhaps the "spirit guides" are malicious or deceptive as well, it doesn't seem like there is any way of proving it either way.


The leap of faith may be a reasonable conclusion reached on the evidence available

No. A leap of faith is never a reasonable conclusion, by definition -- if there is evidence available, a leap of faith is not necessary. Faith is by definition the acceptance of a conclusion which is not supported by compelling evidence, possibly despite the existence of other, rational explanations for the same phenomenon.

[Admin]

What are manifestation kits made of ? If they work on the premise of a cold clammy hand by filling a rubber glove with cold water for example then this presents an example of fraud, because spirit manifestation is dry, warm, solid and of a strong physical character.

Just like a human had you mean? ;)

I think you're purposely acting ignorant here. No-one could have the knowledge of fraudulent activity that you have shown to have and at the same time be so completely unaware of how the tricks are done.


of course there may be extremely clever and sophisticated techniques that could be devised but not a glove filled with cold water.

No. The water bottle filled with ice is used by the person pretending to be a spirit to cool his hand to give the impression that he'd dead. It's a very old trick and is still used today by some.

Dene, either you're a troll or you're completely credulous. Either way, you're not convincing anyone of anything here.

What is your purpose for posting here?

[Dr B]

Removing light bulbs doesn't worry me as to the genuiness of the phenomena, if these are the conditions required.

But it should worry you - as these are the conditions also required for fraud. When you prevent fraud - you prevent the 'spirit-stuff' you talk of - are you not even slightly suspicious of this?



There are infra red photos of materialisations in Tom Harrison's book.


So why did scole not want infrared there? Seems a contradiction to me. My hunch is photos provided by those doing the faking is not high quality objective evidence of anything.

[Dr B]

What if there are situations that could not be reproduced by a magician such as materialisation's that have a nebulous character but are at the same time warm and solid and can talk to sitters as they shake hands? From this I consider that there are genuine mediums.

There are no conditions that cannot be reproduced by fraud and tricks. You seem convinced on a somewhat premature basis - at least for me O0.



Why on the balance of probabilities come down on the side of survival ? Because if the possibility of survival is given serious consideration then sometimes this is the most likely explanation. I cannot think of another explanation for the materialisation.


Dene - your logic here is flawed and you are reasoning in a circle. Firstly, the probabilities are not in favour of survival. Secondly, I for one have given it serious consideration, as have thousands of others, and survival is not the most likely explanation (on what basis do you say that?). If you want to make that argument - you need to provide reasons for it - otherwise its just a statement and an unevidenced one at that. Actually, we have all been discussing the alternatives which are far more likely (see above) and you have shown some awareness of these.

You have yourself provided other explanations - alternatives to paranormal ones - so you can think of plenty. These must all be explored first.

My advice, secure the medium appropriately, turn the lights on, and have full observation involving a number of parties and equipment. My hunch is these great materialisation's will fail to materialise. O0

[Dr B]

Hiya Dene



There is a lot of evidence in the literature (and Google Video) from Tom Harrison whose family members manifested regularly. I was verystruck by the similarities of description from TH and what I have seen.

I would not term this 'evidence'.



The leap of faith may be a reasonable conclusion reached on the evidence available, of course there may be extremely clever and sophisticated techniques that could be devised but not a glove filled with cold water.


Araneus has already beaten me to it with comments above - but a leap of faith is not a logical progression at all. This also means it is not reasonable either.

I would add. There is no evidence available for the conclusion you outline. The information you recruit is of low quality, anecdotal, subjective, and often reports are provided by the people making the claims (not objective). The situation of a seance is not ideal for observing or measuring, yet is ideal for delusion and fraud. The latter two concepts are those we need to remove before we can take this information more seriously.

What is frustrating for me is that all these problems have plagued seances for decades and yet they still have not done anything to improve the quality of their case. It will take more than a purpose built dark room, poor controls and some charlatans to rewrite the known laws of physics. But hey...that's just me 8)

[Dene]

Hi

Dr B is right to say that phenomena in the light with good precautions against fraud with competent observers is the necessary proof that skeptics want. I did say that the last materialisation that I saw was in low white light and this is being developed. If/when I see this perhaps I can post again ? to continue posting without something new to contribute is creating more heat than light. My reason for posting was to answer Kath23's question on personal experience of psychic phenomena. By definition this would be subjective and anecdotal.

[tkingdoll]

Dene, please do update us with any new developments, but in the meantime you are welcome to continue this debate as it's always worthwhile for skeptics to get a different point of view. I think we can all learn from exchanges like this one, as long as neither party is trying to "convert" the other - which I don't think is happening in this case anyway (it's been a very civil debate so far!). All viewpoints are welcome on this forum and it's nice to see a believer happy to wade in amongst the skeptics and present his.

[Dr B]

I second that Teek.

Dene, feel free to post on anything you want - I am sure we would all like to here your thoughts.

Obviously as a skeptical forum, promoting critical thinking and science, you should expect some engagement from others who want to explore ideas and claims. O0

[Admin]

Well someone with some freaky occult power taught me to use a dowsing pendulum. ???

The bloody thing worked as well. :scared: :eek:

I know about the ideomotor effect so I thought it wouldn't work for me but it went in a linear motion to answer 'yes' (which I thought was caused by my heart beat) and then, much to my surprise, it went in a circular motion to answer 'no'. :o

Weird......

[Araneus]

Well obviously that proves that it works. You need to open your mind and see the truth.

[vbloke]

Well someone with some freaky occult power taught me to use a dowsing pendulum. ???

The bloody thing worked as well. :scared: :eek:

I know about the ideomotor effect so I thought it wouldn't work for me but it went in a linear motion to answer 'yes' (which I thought was caused by my heart beat) and then, much to my surprise, it went in a circular motion to answer 'no'. :o

Weird......


The ideomotor effect works even if you know about it.

I used it to great effect a few years ago on a friend who believed in crystals and crystal dowsing.

[Dr B]

You should all have seen John's face when it started to 'work'..... ;D ;D

[Jocky]

You should all have seen John's face when it started to 'work'..... ;D ;D


Yeah, it was scary - it worked on me too.

I put it all down to the powers of Mystic Melanie ;)

Moral of the story: subjective observation cannot be totally trusted, even when the observer knows they are being fooled!

[Melanie]

For the uninitiated (no pun intended), in case you're all dying to try this for yourself...

First make your pendulum - find yourself something with a bit of weight that can be suspended from a length of cotton - I used a pendant necklace I happened to be wearing. It can be a fishing weight, a crystal, a wedding ring, a piece of metal - anything with a bit of weight.

Wrap the cotton / chain whatever around your hand leaving abt 8-10 inches free, don't hold the cotton between finger and thumb, just let it hang over a finger.

Find a battery.

Suspend your disbelief. Oh go on, you know you want to. It won't hurt.

Now suspend your 'weight' over the positive end of the battery. The pendulum will either move in a straight line, or around in a small circle. That is your 'yes' answer.

Now, without altering the way you're holding the pendulum, flip the battery over so the negative end is underneath it. The pendulum's movement will alter - and that's your 'no' answer.

Of course, this worked well on Jocky and John because we had by then spent some time in each other's company and they were convinced I was a nice lady who could be trusted, so the 'suggestion' element was easy.

As an aside, you can just as easily convince someone that the same effect can be seen when suspending your pendulum over the palm of your hand - and then flipping your hand so the pendulum's over the back of your hand. The pendulum changes it's movement in just the same way.

The point is, Jocky and John could see just what it was about this basic dowsing lesson that has non-critical thinkers convinced They Can Dowse and it's really a magical art.

The dowser's explanation is that the pendulum is capable of picking up and amplifying those subtle muscular responses we have to questions of a yes / no variety - but they also take it one step further and suggest that it provides a link to the subconscious mind, which knows far more than the conscious mind does, and which can communicate through this method. (!)

Hence Dowsing For Health - where one holds a person's arm with one hand, the pendulum with the other, and mentally run through a list of ailments, and one's subconscious (through some undefined telepathic method) senses what's wrong with the person and reacts when one mentally reaches the right place on the list.

The next step is to repeat the performance but running mentally through a list of Bach Flower Remedies, for example, or tissue salts (whatever they are) waiting for one's subconscious to indicate which one is relevant to the complaint.

Any questions? (Ducks...)

[Dr B]

My God (assuming there is one of course :fsm:)

I am drowing in a sea of woo..... :scared:

[Jocky]

I am drowing in a sea of woo..... :scared:

Yeah, we noticed that you didn't try it yourself, Doc ;)

Worried that your skeptical-denial might be dented? ;D

[Admin]

Yeah - bloody closed-minded skeptic.

I'm off for a fitting for my new kaftan tomorrow. 8)

Love and Light.

{{{Hugs}}}

John ;D ;D ;D

[vbloke]

*strokes tie-dyed beard*

it is inevitable...

[Mongrel]

*strokes tie-dyed beard*


Is that to match your shirts? :P

[J.B]

I have been on a few "investigations" an up till now have only seen a few orbs an some weird unexplained events, i live in hope i guess

[Zaira]

tkingdoll,

You made a very good point here.....

" .. (I recently had a blazing argument with my sister because I was so sure that a childhood toy was blue when she clearly recalls it as red)."

Funny, the red and blue argument again. I'm the oldest of five and therefore believed that I remembered more than the others. We have had, over the years, many a disagreement about certain events and family stuff, and our memory of them. At one point I would have argued a black man white that a toy I was very fond of was red, of course my sister argued that it was blue. She finally brought around some old Christmas photos and of course she was right. I don't argue with them anymore I just stand back and take bets on who is right. lol

Definitely something to keep in mind when discussing childhood memories.

I talked with someone while dealing with tough childhood memories. That person told me something that helped me enormously. She told me that my painful memories were the memories of a child and suggested that I now explore them as an adult. It worked. I was able to understand my parents struggle, the poverty and the hardship. My mum was 16 when she married my dad and just 17 when she had me. She had seven of us but lost two. My dad was a typical Glaswegian guy, in a gang, spent some time in prison, didn't see anything wrong with knocking his wife and kids about. As horrible as it all was, it was far from the childhood nightmare I remembered.

[Ardbeg]

it was the moon.

A trapezium shaped moon? WOW! Where can I see one of those??

[Scottish_Girl]

Hello all, new to the site although I have posted over on the Psychic board about Sarah....probably not a very nice first post actually, but quite frankly I could not believe what I was reading. Enough said.

Anyway...I have had a number of 'experiences' which I find very difficult to explain, but as they did happen and were very real at the time, I have to accept that something beyond my understanding occurred. I would love for someone to be able to give me some sort of explanation for these events.

I am 45, female, married, live in Scotland (funnily enough) and was Cabin Crew with British Airways before I took early retirement at the age of 40. I am currently a mature student almost at the end of a degree course in Nursing.

Experience One
During my career with BA, I often had 'nightstops' on route, in the latter days it was in fabulous exotic places, but in my early career I worked mostly on domestic routes - staying overnight in a local hotel for a very early start the next day - and one of these stops was in Sumburgh, in the Shetland Islands. This particular evening, soon after I joined the company, was my first night in this tiny hotel, although the crew I was with had stayed there many times. We checked in, and off we went to our respective bedrooms. It was a very early start the next day (5am pick up) so I joined the crew for a meal, then went off to have a bath and get to bed. I duly had the bath, set the alarm, got into bed and read my book for a short while, and must have fallen asleep around 11pm - I remember seeing the bedside clock. At 1am, I was woken by the loud sound of the TV which had suddenly burst into life. This was in the very early 80's, long before all night telly, and so all that I was aware of was a fuzzy white screen and 'white noise'. I distinctly remember getting up out of bed to switch it off, thinking, 'I didn't leave the TV on' ...before drifting back to sleep. Ten minutes later, the television switched back on again. No remote control in the room and the TV was in the corner. This time I began to feel a little odd about the situation - I put a light on, and once again got up to switch the television off, and this time I took the plug from the wall thinking, perhaps it was some sort of weird electrical problem. I lay in bed for a while with the light on, I remember the room was very cold, but then again it was 1.15 am and winter in the Shetland Islands. I snuggled down and curled into a ball, and tried to get back to sleep, when I felt the fleeting, but very real sensation, of a weight on the bed at the lower end, like someone had just sat on the end of the bed. I immediately uncurled my legs and tried to straighten them, but again, had the sensation that there was something on the bed that I could not push my feet past. Now fairly terrified, I sat up and switched on the light, nothing there of course, and I could now stretch my legs to the bottom of the bed. I spent the rest of the evening wide awake with the light on, trying to read my book, and must have nodded off bolt upright for an hour or so before the alarm woke me at 4.30 am.

When I met up with my crew in the morning, the other stewardess was looking at me very carefully and asked how I had slept. I told her, blushing slightly, that I had had an odd experience in the room, to which she told me that there were numerous reports amongst the crew about strange experiences in Room 30 and although she herself had never experienced anything in there, she refused to sleep in it. She explained after umpteen times of drawing straws as to who would get Room 30, she was relieved to have me on the crew, a newbie, who knew nothing about it and would quite happily trot off to sleep there.

Further questions to the Hotelier confirmed that indeed, there were many complaints from guests and staff alike about this particular room and the various odd things that happened there; from hearing child like laughter, to the electric lights coming on and off at random times, open doors closing on their own etc.

Anyway, I managed to wangle my way round never having to sleep in that room again (and to my eternal shame, I played the same trick on a new girl once rather than have to...but she appeared the next morning bright eyed and bushy tailed after a great nights sleep!)

Would appreciate your thoughts, and if I have not bored you too much will post on my other experiences if invited to!

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Hi Scottish Girl,

Fellow resident Scot here, if not a real Scot, but never mind.

I expect you have considered this anyway, but maybe there really was an electrical fault in that room. Also, hearing noises especially in the middle of the night can set the brain into overdrive. I don't know if you've ever woken up to hear seagulls, they sound really, really like something else 8)

And I've just moved into a new house, and when the hot water is turned on in the kitchen, occasionally the noise of the pipes expanding sounds exactly like footsteps in the room above. Indeed, the first time I heard it, I was a bit freaked out :-[

So, maybe that room was in a position where it was susceptible to noise.

I'm not suggesting this happened to you on this instance, but have you heard of sleep paralysis? It has happened to me on a couple of occasions and I've woken in absolute terror. I mean, really terrified. Even without that, if you wake in a strange room in a strange place, and you have already had the experience with the television, your mind is probably on edge and willing to make more of the situation that it possibly merited.

Once a room gets a reputation for something, then anything which happens will get put down to a spooky explanation, whereas if that happened in another room, a rational explanation would be sought. Word of mouth can exaggerate a situation so much.

Of course I wasn't there and it was your experience, but do you feel you would react the same nowadays, or would you potentially seek more rational explanations and not get into so much of a state about it?

[Scottish_Girl]

Hi Far Side, thanks for your reply!

Yes, I have often thought it could have been some weird electrical thing (if the damn TV had come back on AFTER I unplugged it I would have legged it from the room though...no make up on or not lol) and would probably have not been quite so intrigued by the whole episode it if it hadn't been for the very real sensation of someone on the bed. I really did feel a weight on the end of the bed, and it was physical; I couldn't get my feet past it until I switched the light on and sat up. How could it have been physical, tangible? Surely supernatural beings do not have big bums, or indeed, tired legs so they have to plumph down on the bed in the middle of a haunting? But it happened, it really did and I am stumped.

And, yes, funnily, I have also suffered from night terrors (which I have researched a little actually, the Old Hag etc) but the experience was completely different.

In the hotel I had no clue whatsoever of the history of the room, so I had no pre conceived ideas or fears. I was comfortable and sleepy, I can't remember what I was thinking about as I drifted off but probably something mundane..certainly not spooks. There were no strange noises in the room, just the sound of the telly with no station.

The night terror paralysis was incredibly awful - waking at 3am, absolutely terrifed, paralysed to the bed, flat on my back, eyes wide open, fully awake and aware but unable to move or cry out, with a feeling of impending doom and unimaginable evil and terror , like the demon thing from my worst nightmare was crouched beside the bed. No physical presence, I know some people report being 'lain on'.
I had these episodes for about four years and they stopped as suddenly as they started (when I was about 36.)

Hormones maybe? :cheesy:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

Last week in our new house, my wife was adamant that our iron wasn't turning itself off even though she was turning it off at the plug. I thought she was talking rubbish and it was just taking a while to cool down. But when I examined the plug socket, the switch doesn't click into the off position, and sure enough, it doesn't turn off!

Thankfully our ghost iron has a rational explanation :smiley:

[Admin]

Hi Scottish Girl, and welcome to UKS. O0

That's an interesting story.

I think if there are several cases of naive people (in the sense of not knowing the room's history) giving reports of unusual experiences it probably indicates environmental factors. If it's not ghosts of course!!

It's interesting to note that electrical interference seems to be a factor. TVs, especially those with remote controls, can often turn on/off, switch channels etc. due to faults or electrical interference.

It's also been demonstrated that weak but complex magnetic fields can affect the right temporal lobe of the brain and in some people this can induce haunt-type experiences: either hallucinations directly or more probably, causing people to misinterpret normal stimuli as something paranormal.

So, it's just possible that some electrical fault in the room has given rise to unusual, complex magnetic fields which can interact with people susceptible to them and also affected the TV.

It may sound like a long shot but a similar case has been investigated and good, solid evidence was found to support it: http://ejp.org.uk/ExampleArticles/Braithwaite-Townsend_EJP20.pdf

I only raise this as one possibility as I already know about it. Where one room gives rise to haunt-type experiences in independent people it does strongly suggest environmental factors.

I wonder if it's ever been investigated? :ponder:

[Scottish_Girl]

Hi John thank for the welcome, and thanks also for that link which I am off to read now!

[lara123]

maybe dene will be my friend then?:smiley:me claiming to be psychic!;D

[Tin Lizzie]

hey peeps

i've seen a few ghosts, but sadly not under particularly reproducible conditions

best one was when i was leaning out of the window at work whilst i was living in covent garden, central london - i was all nicely chilled and mindinig my own business when suddenly and very briefly everything appeared in negative; the roads were white, buildings white, and there were several groups of people walking around in very nice victorian-era clothes. i say walking but they appeared to be gliding along the floor. kind of startled me it did, but i know others have had this experience too, can't recall the name for it though.

no, i don't do drugs man.

i think there probably is a good explanation in terms of magnetic/emotional 'imprints' here, but my small experience with spirits has been totally different and sometimes downright frightening. best one was again in covent garden, in my room on the 4th floor of an old (victorian/pre-victorian, not sure) building on drury lane. i was dozing off to sleep nicely when my head was being pressed against the wall. i opened my eyes to catch a terrifying dark shape with malevolent eyes, right in front of me. it disappeared as jumped out of bed. cue clean underwear :-X

[fruitfly]

Alternative explanations:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html (http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/%7Eacheyne/S_P.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinations_in_the_sane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming



Sorry to post so many links but there is more to say about such experiences than can be put in a short post. I have experienced hypnagogia since I was a teenager, though it is less frequent and less vivid now. I often had frighteningly realistic visions and sensations as I was drifting off to sleep. These visions occurred within the context of my actual surroundings, which made them appear all the more “real” and frightening. So. for example, I would be lying in my bed unable to move due to what I experienced as an unknown force pressing on my body. I felt I was wide awake and could see the room clearly - an interesting aspect of this was I knew it was dark but a luminescence seemed to emanate from my surroundings, lighting up objects in the room (similar to TL's experience of everything appearing in negative). In one particularly vivid experience strange, porcelain faced people appeared, staring down at me, and I could sense their malevolence. Other times there would be a feeling of mounting terror as the door to the room began to open slowly...

Coming out of these terrors is like forcing yourself from one dimension into another. Your surroundings appear the same but change from the “altered” (in my case luminescent) hypnagogic version to the normal reality of your actual surroundings. The transition often involved a panicked scrambling to turn on the bedside lamp.

Visionaries and mystics view these experiences as supernatural and believers may naturally be drawn towards such explanations. The fact that they appear so “real” may, indeed, convince those so predisposed that they have had an actual visitation or supernatural experience. Those of a more logical frame of mind will seek a rational explanation. Have a read through the above links and you will find it is an entirely natural phenomenon experienced by very many normal people. Not as exciting as the supernatural but, remember, the sleep of reason produces monsters.

http://www.museum.cornell.edu/HFJ/permcoll/pdp/img_pr/monstros_l.jpg

Think I might use that as my avatar.

[Zaira]

asthmatic camel,

"Nothing, ever. Not even the slightest sniff of a sprite nor the poorest precognitive perception; I'm afraid I'm not "gifted." My sometime fiancée, however, is extremely gifted in her ability to perceive things which others could not; her particular gift is known as paranoid schizophrenia."

Does she go on the net? Does she participate in forums? When she is talking about 'hearing' or 'seeing' does she make sense? Does she get Hysterical?

[Tin Lizzie]

hmm this is all so interesting. it's a shame that some people actually get put in institutions for this when really there is a whole other side out there which is 'unexplained'. still, better than being burnt at the stake!

[Zaira]

As most of you know, I have all sorts going on but as strange as it sounds I don’t believe in ghosts. But perhaps it just depends what someone means when they talk about ghosts. I have experienced the presence of ‘spirits that appear to be looking for something or someone’. I was freaked out until I read somewhere about ‘sending them on’. I came up with a simple answer for their ‘enquiry’, I said, “I’m sorry I can’t help you but keep trying, there are people out there who are better at this than me.” I think the word must have got around because I haven’t been bothered by ‘lost spirits’ since the early 90s. :smiley:

[Tin Lizzie]

Visionaries and mystics view these experiences as supernatural and believers may naturally be drawn towards such explanations. The fact that they appear so “real” may, indeed, convince those so predisposed that they have had an actual visitation or supernatural experience. Those of a more logical frame of mind will seek a rational explanation. Have a read through the above links and you will find it is an entirely natural phenomenon experienced by very many normal people. Not as exciting as the supernatural but, remember, the sleep of reason produces monsters.



hmm okay, my hypnogia experience occured during my afternoon break at work, in broad daylight and in a public place. now this is definitely 'woo'! and it wasn't at all terrifying, it was just totally random to say the very least.

[fruitfly]

hmm okay, my hypnogia experience occured during my afternoon break at work, in broad daylight and in a public place. now this is definitely 'woo'! and it wasn't at all terrifying, it was just totally random to say the very least.

Yes, that's why I also posted this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinations_in_the_sane

I'm not trying to diagnose, just looking at possible alternatives.

[Tin Lizzie]

:ponder:


hmmm...

[fruitfly]

i think there probably is a good explanation in terms of magnetic/emotional 'imprints' here, but my small experience with spirits has been totally different and sometimes downright frightening. best one was again in covent garden, in my room on the 4th floor of an old (victorian/pre-victorian, not sure) building on drury lane. i was dozing off to sleep nicely when my head was being pressed against the wall. i opened my eyes to catch a terrifying dark shape with malevolent eyes, right in front of me. it disappeared as jumped out of bed. cue clean underwear :-X

Also, from experience, this actually does sound very much like hypnagogia. I've had many such episodes myself.

[Tin Lizzie]

i wonder though, how can the physical sensation be explained? an optical hallucination is one thing, but i certainly did not imagine that something was pushing my head against the wall. have you experienced this too?

[Zaira]

No. I have experienced lots of funny and strange things but no I haven't experienced spirit 'touching' or pushing me. No physical contact whatsoever. :smiley:

[Cuddles]

i wonder though, how can the physical sensation be explained? an optical hallucination is one thing, but i certainly did not imagine that something was pushing my head against the wall. have you experienced this too?

Why do you think there is a difference between nerve impulses from the eyes and nerver impulses from the skin, or more accurately, how the brain processes these signals?

[Tin Lizzie]

Why do you think there is a difference between nerve impulses from the eyes and nerver impulses from the skin, or more accurately, how the brain processes these signals?

when did i say there was any such difference?

[MRT]

Hi Scottish Girl,

And I've just moved into a new house, and when the hot water is turned on in the kitchen, occasionally the noise of the pipes expanding sounds exactly like footsteps in the room above. Indeed, the first time I heard it, I was a bit freaked out :-[



Thanks for this - see http://www.assap.org/newsite/htmlfiles/New%20house.html to see why!

[Cuddles]

when did i say there was any such difference?

Right here:

i wonder though, how can the physical sensation be explained? an optical hallucination is one thing

[MRT]

As far as I'm aware, hallucinations can affect any sense, not just vision. Typically, the brain tries to rationalise ambiguous sensory input into something it is familiar with eg. producing voices from noise that sounds like speech or turning clothes seen on a washing line in semi-darkness into a human figure.

[Tin Lizzie]

Why do you think there is a difference between nerve impulses from the eyes and nerver impulses from the skin, or more accurately, how the brain processes these signals?

from my previous:
i wonder though, how can the physical sensation be explained? an optical hallucination is one thing


having bother removing the italics here! ::)
ah, it was the manner of your approach that confused me. so assuming that optical hallucination is accompanied by physical hallucination, why did i not feel any physical sensation during the daylight experience of hypoplagia (forgive any mispelling please), and how can it be that the physical hallucination happened to occur on my head only,and that my head was indeed being pressed against the wall? furthermore a 'psychically sensitive' (can't think of a non-woo term) friend had sensed the presence of separate spirits in this building. incidences of objects being thrown and sometimes broken were witnessed by a good proportion of the staff, including myself and a colleague who together witnessed an ashtray being moved off a table and dropped on to the floor.another chap saw a man dressed in full victorian clothing. i am open to the explanations of nervous mechanisms, but this still does not answer everything here. i believe someone wanted to get our attention and that they had no qualms about scaring people.

[MRT]

Did anyone see your head being pressed against a wall?

[Tin Lizzie]

Did anyone see your head being pressed against a wall?
apart from myself, no.

[MRT]

What makes you think it was objectively real?

[Tin Lizzie]

why should i think otherwise?

[MRT]

I thought you had experienced hypnogogic hallucinations. How do you know this wasn't one?

[Tin Lizzie]

my daytime experience does sound like hypnagogia and i can see the parallels in the night-time incident. given the incidences i mentioned earlier regarding smashed plates, ashtrays and ghost sightings etc. i hesitate to jump to the conclusion that this was due to some kind of physiological malfunction on my part. too many things to be a coincidence.

[MRT]

What were the circumstances of the 'head on the wall' experience, please? What were you doing just before and just after this experience? Most of all, what were you doing during the experience?

[Tin Lizzie]

What were the circumstances of the 'head on the wall' experience, please? What were you doing just before and just after this experience? Most of all, what were you doing during the experience?

i was settling down to sleep, the lights were off. just before this i had been chatting with my flatmates in the kitchen below and having a cuppa. i hadn't yet gone to sleep when this happened, i was thinking about things at work that day. after i put the lights on i was freaked out but i didn't want to face my flatmates, who were total sceptics of just about everything. i sat on my bed forcing myself to read until i somewhat anxiously turned the lights out and tried again, this time without a problem.

[MRT]

It certainly sounds like a hypnagogic episode to me, given the circumstances. I had them when I was a kid but never since. They certainly could be scary.

[Tin Lizzie]

definitely so in the 'night' incident' here. did you seek diagnosis for your own experiences? were they frequent, if you don't mind my asking?
my daytime thing was just comlpetely odd. it was so clear, and the people with large fancy umbrellas and victorian dress add a peculiar twist. if it was a hallucination, why did i clearly see this? why weren't they in some other kind of dress?

[MRT]

It never occured to me to go to a doctor with my experiences. It was clear to me at the time that they were hallucinations so I just accepted them and they went away. It probably only happened 2 or 3 times. I tend to work on the principle that if something goes away and I'm still here, it's not worth troubling a doctor about it. I leave a toothache for about a month before I go to a dentist!

I found out later what the experiences were and that they are completely normal.

I'm not sure about your 'negative image' experience - time for some research I think. Interesting point about Victorian dress - ghosts didn't appear in period costume until around the start of the twentieth century. Before that they were always dressed in contemporary style! It certainly implies a psychological and cultural element to ghost sightings.

[Tin Lizzie]

:ponder:


and there was a similar sighting by a friend of mine, without the 'negative colours' thing. i have seen other ghosts but i don't want to hog the space here about them. some i can definitely attribut to 'non-spiritual' causes, others i'm not so sure about. i think the day experience i had is probably explainable, but fascinating nonetheless and i feel kind of lucky to have experienced it

[Julia]

I had a very vivid hypogogic experience many years ago in which the flex of my bedside lamp coiled itself around my body like a boa constrictor (the incident took place when I was having a lie-down in the afternoon). I distinctly felt the pressure of the flex and the movement of the bedclothes, although I rarely "feel" things in ordinary dreams. Funnily enough I wasn't in the least bit scared, even though I tried to get up and was unable to do so!

[Tin Lizzie]

Blimey! :eek3:

The odd thing about my little episode was that the position of my head was actually moved. i have to say i may have done this unconsciously but in any case it was the face that did it for me.

was yours a one-off if you don't mind me asking?

[fruitfly]

i wonder though, how can the physical sensation be explained? an optical hallucination is one thing, but i certainly did not imagine that something was pushing my head against the wall. have you experienced this too?

Yes, the physical experience is a common element in hypnagogia. People have reported being sat on, being pinned down, being strangled and even being sexually violated. The word “nightmare” originally described hypnagogia, or sleep paralysis.

“The English referred to nighttime sensations of chest pressure from witches or other supernatural beings as the "mare," from the Anglo-Saxon merran, meaning to crush. The term eventually morphed into nightmare—the crusher who comes in the night..”
(from http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp )

Heres a picture of the blighter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:John_Henry_Fuseli_-_The_Nightmare.JPG

My experiences usually involved either total paralysis or a feeling of being pinned down by an invisible force. I once felt my mind had left my body and was moving through the the house.

Another aspect of this is that is appears to be common in people suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Did this happen to you after your Nairobi experience?

Have a read of the Science News link, you might find it interesting.

[Tin Lizzie]

Another aspect of this is that is appears to be common in people suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Did this happen to you after your Nairobi experience?



LoL yes, but i have had far worse nightmares, more related to that. No doubt i have suffered PTSD, this was exacerbated - no- this was actually caused not so much by the incident itself, but by the fact that i found myself living on the same road as the famous finsbury park mosque in 1999, plus with the fact that nobody had the slightest clue of what i was on about when i tried to explain the links. that's a whole other story though & i seriously wouldn't make any connection between Nairobi & this experience. Strange as this may sound, the London bombings did much to help me overcome things.

Cheers.

[Julia]

This happened when I was five or six:

I was sitting up in bed reading a book when I suddenly felt very tired and decided to go to sleep. The light was still on but I was too tired to get up and turn it off, so I pulled the sheet over my face. After what seemed like a couple of minutes I sensed someone moving about in the room, opened my eyes and through the sheet I saw a shadow move toward me. I pulled down the sheet and saw what seemed to be a person about three feet tall wearing a white shirt with a dark jacket and trousers. Although I couldn't focus on its face I was reminded of a ventriloquist's dummy, and despite its small size I got the impression that it was an adult, not a child. Although I was frightened and felt sure that this wasn't a dream I was unable to move or scream. I realized that it was unusually quiet - no traffic noises or birds outside - and at that moment a car drove past my house and everything returned to normal. I opened my eyes and of course there was nobody else in the room. For some reason I didn't tell my parents about this. When I look back at this incident I'm struck by its resemblance to some accounts of alien encounters - that small figure in dark clothing wasn't unlike the classic "grey" alien of modern mythology!

The "boa constrictor" incident may have been triggered by watching "A Nightmare on Elm Street" on video earlier that day. I seem to remember that the film contains a scene in which an unfortunate victim of Freddy Krueger is strangled by an electrical flex.

[Zaira]

Tin Lizzie,

I assume everyone is familiar with the superstition of things coming in threes. Something else I experience a lot. I'm a little concerned about you're escape from those bomb situations. May I ask how many times it has happened so far.

I know about bombs, soldier hubby was involved in a few, one seriously.

[Tin Lizzie]

Hi Julia

Now that is frightening, whatever happened! Again, i think i would have headed for the hills!

Hi Zaira, don't worry i think the third one came with the London bombs - i lived near Tavistock square & woke up just before it went off. funnily enough my best buddy, who had been in Kenya with me, was staying over - we hadn't met for 6 months & had spent the end of the evening in deep conversation about kenya.

twilight zone.

well i hope that was the third one!!

was your hubby ok with what happened? Ulster, if you don't mind me asking?

[Elin]

Most recent from my husband. He went to his doctor for a little exam, when he went into the doctor´s office he was sitting at his desk, in black and white, everything else in the room had the real colours but the doc was in like bw television.
He took off his coat and when looked back the doc had human colour again.
My husband has history of strange visions and we wondered what this could have been about.
Like one week later we were informed that his doctor had died.
Didn´t surprice my husband a bit...

[BillB]

Hi,

I did see the thirteenth ghost (actually a video) so I don't think this really counts in the context of this post.

I have never seen a ghost and if I have accidentally mistaken one for just being a normal person, it must have been one hell of a manifestation.

Do people tend to see ghosts more at nighttime than during the daytime?

BillB

[wooo_oops]

Do people tend to see ghosts more at nighttime than during the daytime?

Depends what you mean by 'ghost'. If you never had sleep paralysis before you might call it a visitation.

If loads of weird stuff happens when you're falling asleep or waking up, then it tends to be at night, yep. But there've been lots of sightings in the daytime.

The daytime sightings are often in stately homes and private houses, which makes me wonder why they're usually investigated at night...???

[The Great Bymble]

But there've been lots of sightings in the daytime.

The daytime sightings are often in stately homes and private houses, which makes me wonder why they're usually investigated at night...???

Although I've participated in a lot of 'Paranormal investigations',the only time that I've ever actually seen something that might have been
an apparition was during daylight hours(and we didn't realise it at the time).

[BillB]

Hi,

wooo_oops
The daytime sightings are often in stately homes and private houses, which makes me wonder why they're usually investigated at night...

Now this makes sense to me and if we have to conduct investigations at indoor locations at night then why not adopts a light's on policy.

Just think of what might be achieved if ghosts actually exist. For example the use of camcorders in colour mode or even photography, without the flash that can often create artifacts in the image, from light reflecting off airborne particles, for example dust. Plus the fact we can see more clearly if anything anomalous were to occur?

We are removing so many questionable variables simply by just working in the light

BillB :smiley:

[bruno.j]

bill-bill - bill - you cant go having ghost hunts during the day ::) or with the lights on - atmosphere man - atmosphere !! - heavens above people have to work during the day and the ghosts have to have a kip at some time - you need to show more consideration to our spirit friends !!

and any way - it would just NOT be the same - auto suggestion - hallucination - hypnowatsitnames - holding some scared females hand for reassurance ( her's not yours - or may be not ?? ) - and all the jolly japes that go on in the dark - plus the down turn in sales of night vision cameras - heck a suggestion like that could put camera manufacturers out of business - to say nothing of torch makers

tut tut sir !! - such a suggestion could put lots of paranormal "experience " operators - woo groups and even academics AND TV PRESENTERS ;) out of a job !!

no no no - i feel i must protest !!

and hereby launch the campaign for REAL GHOSTHUNTS - darkness rules OK

OK ??

bruno.j :scared: - IT AINT NO FUN IF YOU CAN SEE WHERE TO RUN O0

[Zaira]

So funny. 8)