Have any of you ever experienced an alternative therapy 'really' working?

[kath23]

Particularly with energy healing, prayer or magick, have any of you ever seen in yourself or others real results- person comes back from the brink, or returns to considerably better health? Or chronic conditions hardly there at all?
Dramatic results, not just 'felt a bit better.'

I'd love to hear about your alternative therapy 'results'.
Love
Kath

[Admin]

Erm.... No. ;D

My mother has used several concoctions to relieve her arthritis of the knee. It's basically the regressive fallacy (http://www.ukskeptics.com/explanation.php?dir=articles/explanations&article=regressive_fallacy.php) though. She's rubs Emu oil etc. into her knee when the pain is at its worst and then it gets better a day or two later.

In fact, she doesn't seem to do it any more - since I explained the regressive fallacy!

[Jocky]

My mother swears that one condition from which she suffered got better after taking a homeopathic remedy - apparently someone at the hospital had told her it would "never get better".

Now I stop to think of it, I have never got round to explaining to her properly why this is not so. On my to do list ...

[Physiotherapist]

Yes.

[Jocky]

Yes.


Care to elaborate?

[Physiotherapist]

All different kinds of massage therapy, sports massage and deep tissue and osteopathy.

[Ginger Rogers]

Yes my chiropractor works for me! if I go when my back is hurting and out of place (usually misaglined pelvis - and I know it is cos I can feel it 'go') it works, it's not in my mind!

[Araneus]

Yes my chiropractor works for me! if I go when my back is hurting and out of place (usually misaglined pelvis - and I know it is cos I can feel it 'go') it works, it's not in my mind!


That could just as well be explained by the regressive fallacy that John posted a link to.

[Admin]

I don’t think there’s much doubt that manipulative therapies are appropriate in cases where things need manipulating!

I think Kath was asking more about spiritual/energy healing – i.e. things that have no, real, appropriate use.

What about psionic healing (reiki, TT, quantum touch, etc.)? Or some of the ludicrous claims made for acupuncture or homeopathy?

Side story…

My wife has been off work after straining her back quite badly on Wednesday. I gave her some Reiki healing (in my own inimitable style) yesterday and she’s a lot better today.

How did I do that? :ponder:

[kath23]

My wife has been off work after straining her back quite badly on Wednesday. I gave her some Reiki healing (in my own inimitable style) yesterday and she’s a lot better today.

How did I do that? :ponder:



OMG you must be a very gifted healer :o It can be a 'nice little earner' ;) you know, as a reiki master actually once said to me ;D

[Admin]

She's still in pain although a little better again today.

This Reiki takes a while to do its job. Perhaps I need 'attuning'. ;D

[Araneus]

She's still in pain although a little better again today.
This Reiki takes a while to do its job. Perhaps I need 'attuning'. ;D


No, it's just her body "expelling toxins". It has to get worse before it gets better.

[Cuddles]

No, it's just her body "expelling toxins". It has to get worse before it gets better.


Surely that's only for homeopathic Reiki?

[kath23]

This Reiki takes a while to do its job. Perhaps I need 'attuning'. ;D


There are numerous sites etc where you can become a reiki master for free :) If you can't beat em, join em lol :D

[median]

No, it's just her body "expelling toxins". It has to get worse before it gets better.

Talking about 'expelling toxins'; who needs colonic irrigation when there's guinness?

:D

[Mongrel]

No, it's just her body "expelling toxins". It has to get worse before it gets better.

Talking about 'expelling toxins'; who needs colonic irrigation when there's guinness?

:D


And I suppose the individualising is "Chili sauce with that?" O0

[asthmatic camel]

One of my closest friends killed himself after being given acupuncture by NHS staff, so I suppose you could say that really worked.

[Aardvark]

One of my closest friends killed himself after being given acupuncture by NHS staff, so I suppose you could say that really worked.


Now that is what happens when the Consultant is away at his private rooms and his NHS clinic is being done by an SHO 8)

Where in heaven did they stick the needles???? :-[

[asthmatic camel]

Amazingly, he was given acupuncture as a treatment for his alcoholism at a specialist NHS clinic. Well, I'm quite sure that poking needles in somebodies ear is bound to help with a serious physical and psychological addiction. ::)

The thing is, the staff at the clinic were completely convinced (and still are) that acupuncture is effective. Who knows how my friend felt when he failed to respond to this nonsense, which had been so enthusiastically promoted by people who should know better? Desperate?

It certainly didn't do him a great deal of good, did it?

[kath23]

Amazingly, he was given acupuncture as a treatment for his alcoholism at a specialist NHS clinic. Well, I'm quite sure that poking needles in somebodies ear is bound to help with a serious physical and psychological addiction. ::)

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend :'( Real addiction treatment is notoriously poorly provided for on the NHS.

Love
Kath

[Araneus]

The thing is, the staff at the clinic were completely convinced (and still are) that acupuncture is effective. Who knows how my friend felt when he failed to respond to this nonsense, which had been so enthusiastically promoted by people who should know better? Desperate? It certainly didn't do him a great deal of good, did it?

Maybe the acupuncture had nothing to do with his death. Assuming such a causal connection is just as much woo as assuming it worked if he had got better.

[asthmatic camel]

The thing is, the staff at the clinic were completely convinced (and still are) that acupuncture is effective. Who knows how my friend felt when he failed to respond to this nonsense, which had been so enthusiastically promoted by people who should know better? Desperate? It certainly didn't do him a great deal of good, did it?

Maybe the acupuncture had nothing to do with his death. Assuming such a causal connection is just as much woo as assuming it worked if he had got better.


I didn't intend to give the impression that I assumed a causal connection, forgive me for not making that clear. Maybe, though, the treatment had absolutely no effect whatsoever other than making him feel even more helpless than he already did; that was the impression I got the week before he stuck a hosepipe in the exhaust pipe of his car and gassed himself in a lonely carpark.

At the same clinic the "professionals" have also been known to espouse reiki, reflexology etc. etc.

In my opinion, that's a bloody disgrace.

[Grislygherkin]

Yes: herbalism, homoeopathy, acupuncture and chiropractic. Herbalism has been the most effective of them. I won't dismiss anything like this unlessI have experienced plenty of it and found it to be ineffective.

[Cuddles]

Yes: herbalism, homoeopathy, acupuncture and chiropractic. Herbalism has been the most effective of them. I won't dismiss anything like this unlessI have experienced plenty of it and found it to be ineffective.

And this is exactly what they rely on. Anecdotes are not evidence. Trying something at home and deciding it works is no substitute for double-blind, placebo controlled trials. Of course, the sCAM people don't want you to look at real trials because they all show that none of it actually works, which is why they encourage you to try it for yourself, where you will be open to all kinds of confirmation bias and placebo effects.

Homeopathy has been disproven may times over and the whole principle behind is just a big joke. Most people who believe in homeopathy don't even know what it actually is and get it confused with herbalism, and many remdies sold as homeopathic are actually no such thing.

Acupuncture is a bit mixed. The traditional acupucture ideas based on meridians and energy flow are complete nonsense and have been shown in trials to be no different from sticking needles in random places. However, there may be some effect above placebo just from needling, which wouldn't be all that surprising, but it is hard to test properly due to the difficulty of having convincing placebo needles that are still inactive. There is also muscular therapy that involves maniputlating small cramps inside the muscle using a needle that is often called acupuncture and can be confused with what most people think of as acupunture.

Chiropractic is also a bit mixed. The principles behind it are based on "sublaxations" which do not exist. The idea is that these are small misalignments in joints, especially the neck and spine, that block some kind of non-existant energy flow and cause disease. While this is utter nonsense, a lot of chiropractic consists simply of massage and therefore feels good and can be just as beneficial as any other massage. However, chiropractic also involves cracking joints and sharp twists, which is not good for the neck or spine at all. It also recomends this for very young children, which is just plain stupid. The biggest problem with chiropractic is that they want you to go regularly throughout your entire life, from young child until you die, even if there is nothing wrong with you, which costs a huge amount of money and is completely unecessary. There are also claims that the manipulation of the neck can cause strokes, although I am skeptical of this and have never seen any evidence that this is acutally a significant risk.

Finally, herbalism. This has sererious problems, but is not the same as most other sCAM. The problem with most sCAM is that they don't do anything. The problem with herbs (which is actually just used to mean "plants", but sounds more scientificy) is that they actually might do something. In fact, many, if not most, medicines are based on compounds originally found in plants (and occasionally animals). The difference between medicince and herbalism is that medicine actually tries to work out what a plant does, what compound makes it do this and how it can be isolated, improved and made safe. What herbalism does is say "Hey, this is a plant, let's sell it to people". There is no effort to make any kind of controlled testing for either effect or safety. This means that while most herbal remedies do absolutely nothing, some have active compounds in them that might do what is claimed, but are just as likely to do something completely different and possibly dangerous, as well as having no quality control so the amount in one batch bears no relation to the amount in another. Herbalism is effectively medicine 1000 years out of date. It almost has the right idea, but ignores everything ever discovered about how to make things safe and effective.

You actually have your statement exactly backwards. When it comes to medicine you do not take it until proven ineffective, you dismiss it until it is proven effective and, more importantly, safe.

[Woodchopper]

There is also muscular therapy that involves maniputlating small cramps inside the muscle using a needle that is often called acupuncture and can be confused with what most people think of as acupunture.

I have had that for neck and shoulder pain. It certainly seemed to loosen up the muscles. Though it was rather painful at the time. The Phisiotherapist didn't say anything about meridians. He just stuck the needles into the knotted muscles.

I have to admit that I have faked a positive response to several alternative treatments. My mother was into homeopathy, and a few other things. When I was a child I used to claim that they made me feel better, just so she would be happier.

Ah, the lies that we tell to those that we llove....

[HeyJupiter]

In terms of energy-related treatments, I have experienced Reiki and felt it helped me a great deal. As it was mainly to aid my recovery from a bout of depression and work stress, I'm not sure how I would explain "helped me a great deal", as obviously it wasn't a physical ailment where I could point and say "the cut on my leg healed up" ;)

From a sceptical point of view, you could interpret it as that the treatment relaxed me, and that's the basis for the perceived benefits (e.g. muscle relaxation etc.)

[SKIRRID5]

Trouble is, if anyone here answers "yes" to the thread's question, it will be no more than an anecdote, and we all know anecdotes don't count as scientific evidence.

[bobdezon]

In terms of energy-related treatments, I have experienced Reiki and felt it helped me a great deal. As it was mainly to aid my recovery from a bout of depression and work stress, I'm not sure how I would explain "helped me a great deal", as obviously it wasn't a physical ailment where I could point and say "the cut on my leg healed up" ;)

From a sceptical point of view, you could interpret it as that the treatment relaxed me, and that's the basis for the perceived benefits (e.g. muscle relaxation etc.)

I believe you, you benefited from the attention and felt more able to cope with your situation because of that. You self healed because the reiki gave you the confidence to do so. However it was you who adjusted to the situation, the reiki was merely your talisman.

[SKIRRID5]

GrislyGherkin - you won't dismiss anything unless you have experienced plenty of it and found it ineffective. So, in your opinion, an anecdote from you is worth as much as a properly organised test involving numbers of cases, control groups - the full scientific process? Anecdotes about failures are just as much anecdotes as anecdotes about success, and just as little value as evidence.